Just one - where I replaced her. I have not yet been in a game with her. The meta point is very weak, obviously. I just don't believe that she would play the gambit as scum.Don wrote:How many games have you read/been in with juls? Can you provide evidence where juls is not “easily frustrated/irritable”?
first off: you are not providing evidence. second, i am skeptical of meta arguments in general. you pointed to her play in a specific way and stated that it was what led you to believe her claim. i am asking you to back up your statements with data. if you can't, then perhaps you should avoid making such statements. why don't you believe that she would play the gambit as scum? i.e. she claimed miller and has all but dissappeared for day one. noone is voting her and other players are willing to use her claim to test the sanity of a cop. sounds like an awfully comfortable place for scum to be. yet you believe her claim based on "obviously weak" meta. thank you for clarifying.ShadowGirl wrote:Just one - where I replaced her. I have not yet been in a game with her. The meta point is very weak, obviously. I just don't believe that she would play the gambit as scum.Don wrote:How many games have you read/been in with juls? Can you provide evidence where juls is not “easily frustrated/irritable”?
Why am I providing evidence for such a thing?
I bolded the giant misrep you made in the last part considering I said multiple, not "several". See how easy it is to miss those kinds of things?don_johnson wrote:what?VP Baltar wrote:No one said that Juls was confirmed as a miller. She very well may be scum trying to gambit, but I was merely suggesting one possibility for why her claiming miller early, if true, could be a good idea. She would obviously know if she was town or not and would then have to assess whether claiming would be a good idea.don johnson wrote:^^ I don’t get this. Juls has claimed miller. There is no way to confirm that. Using her to check sanities makes no sense to me. It would not be a good indicator at all.
I was speaking hypothetically about a situation in which Juls claiming miller early would make sense in the context of her being town. What don't you understand?bolded is the giant misrepresentation of my viewpoint on the juls claim.vp wrote:So you are saying if a cop received multiple guilties in a row, you would be inclined to completely trust their sanity without question?Meh. If a cop received multiple guilties we should already be lynching people, no?Seems funny for someone who is so doubtful of Juls' claim.
You're right, I didn't do a reread at that moment and it seemed to me that you were implying you didn't believe her. I missed the giant fencesit you took on whether you believe her or not...and no one asked you if it was a tell or notdj wrote:Juls has given no reason as yet to believe or disbelieve what she says. I find the claim a null tell.
cop investigates one player a night. several means "more than two". meaning cop would have three results and it would be day 4 by the time this "sanity" question would arise according to your theory. if we lynch the first "guilty" player and they flip town, don't you think we would already be questioning sanity? why on earth would we not be lynching players producing "guilty" results? its convoluted, but i don't see how investigating a claimed miller does anything to clear up "sanity" issues. we would need to lynch juls to confirm her role in order to be able to trust the results, just like anyone else.
Yes, doing as such would call the sanity in question, however, it would also require the cop to out themself on D2. If we had lynched no scum at that point, and the alledgedly guilty person flipped town we would then have an outted powerrole we can't be sure of and a second "guilty" that we would be unsure of.DJ wrote:if we lynch the first "guilty" player and they flip town, don't you think we would already be questioning sanity? why on earth would we not be lynching players producing "guilty" results?
Because, how hard is it to say that you believe a claim one way or another, or to at least give an inclination as to which way you are leaning? Juls may not have posted, but people had brought up relevant meta reasons why she may have done that move. You could have commented upon those. Instead, you took the easy road of saying you don't believe or disbelieve her at this moment. Even if you had picked one or the other you still could have changed your read based on what Juls says when she comes back. I don't like it when people leave their options open to fall on whatever side gains popular opinion later.dj wrote:also, explain why i shouldn't be "fencesitting" as you call it in regards to whether or not i trust what someone says who has posted all of four times. i am not inclined to believe that a mafia forum is ripe with honesty.
Point one: I still don't get what the point in me providing evidence for her not being 'easily frustrated/irritable'. Can you explain this more clearly?don_johnson wrote:first off: you are not providing evidence. second, i am skeptical of meta arguments in general. you pointed to her play in a specific way and stated that it was what led you to believe her claim. i am asking you to back up your statements with data. if you can't, then perhaps you should avoid making such statements. why don't you believe that she would play the gambit as scum? i.e. she claimed miller and has all but dissappeared for day one. noone is voting her and other players are willing to use her claim to test the sanity of a cop. sounds like an awfully comfortable place for scum to be. yet you believe her claim based on "obviously weak" meta. thank you for clarifying.ShadowGirl wrote:Just one - where I replaced her. I have not yet been in a game with her. The meta point is very weak, obviously. I just don't believe that she would play the gambit as scum.Don wrote:How many games have you read/been in with juls? Can you provide evidence where juls is not “easily frustrated/irritable”?
Why am I providing evidence for such a thing?
Ok that answers my question on how you thought it could be a ploy.I don't know about Jul's threatening to quit mafiascum, but it doesn't earn any sympathy votes from me. I'm still mistrustful of something that potentially guarantees a free ride to end game, no matter what meta lies behind it. At the same time, I can see pro-town value in that deception, in case she's not a miller but a good power role that wants to remain untouched by a mafia that is more concerned with finding power roles than a miller that the town might not trust entirely.
Is there a reason you post in blue? Can't say I'm a fan of your answers but I don't believe they make you obv scum either. A completely random vote like a dice roll is bad but an arbitraury vote based on the game can catch scum on day 1. The most pro-town thing to do as miller in my mind is exactly what charlaton said. Act super pro-town in order to avoid investigations and draw night kills. Getting nightkilled as miller without having to claim or get investigated is a win in my book. Claiming early as miller can have the usual con telling scum you aren't a powerole. They will focus else where to lynch and or kill town's power roles. Also Strangely enough I've actually seen games with millers and GFs and no cops at all. So I don't know if we can gain something from speculating further. Probably isn't a good idea to speculate as SG pointed out.ZEEnon wrote:Oh hey guys! Fast start to this game, I like it.
Juls claiming miller early on is pro-town for the most part.
This lets us know that we do in fact have a cop.
It also helps the cop become aware that there very well may be a godfather role in the game.
Not only that, but if a cop were to say investigate her the night before LYLO, that could end up losing the game for us.
The draw back to this is that she could very well be scum using this as an excuse to avoid cop investigations.
I view this as a null-tell towards her alignment, but it does help us with set-up speculation.
PokerFace wrote:ZEEnon = Which do you think is better, a random vote stage at the start or a discussion stageIn my opinion, random voting stage doesn't really benefit us at all,
and usually ends up in a bandwagon on town early on for pathetic reasons.
In my experience, town-aligned players are more prone to making mistakes than scum are.
This is because scum are more cautious, while town know they have nothing to fear.
its a slight suspiscion I have based on this.don_johnson wrote:I would like you to explain this connection of baltar/rhinox?
Well it basically further states your train of thought so that people can see what you are thinking, where were you going with your thought process. I've also found it fairly useful in finding entire scum groups on day one before. Example here: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=8537rhinox wrote:what benefits exist from trying to pair up scum early in the game?
Heading off what I think are bad attacks =/= defending Juls.d_j 94 wrote:Why are you defending juls?
I don't see a reason to. Do you?d_j 94 wrote:Also, why not question shadow girls “meta” argument?
Juls claims to be V/LA, but that doesn't seem to be impeding her Mish Mash dutiesd_j 94 wrote:I am stunned that everyone seems to be “okay” with letting juls claim miller and sit quietly as we all discuss it.
There's something really obvious that I think you're missing. And d_j gets it immediately--VP Baltar 96 wrote:So you are saying if a cop received multiple guilties in a row, you would be inclined to completely trust their sanity without question?
What bothers me about this exchange is how Gorrad jumped onto VP Baltar's side of the life raft in 97.d_j 98 wrote:if we lynch the first "guilty" player and they flip town, don't you think we would already be questioning sanity?
Let me ask this--Do you think the Mafia have falseclaims in this game?PokerFace 99 wrote:I see a slight down side to it pending how significant or ill significant the character is. Some unknown in the white tiger will probably tell us nothing while someone that could rationaly be a miller would be more believeable. Basically the significance of her character can effect how her claim is viewed either way. normally though I see flavor claimed with role in theme games.
Jahudo answered this alreadyd_j 102 wrote:question to anyone: how does investigating a claimed miller speak to sanity?
I wouldn't place a value on a meta read on Rhinox at this stage in the game.PokerFace 106 wrote:General question to those who have played with rhinox before. Does he normally act cautiosly on all options in games, or do you feel this trait is unique to only his scum or town play?
Point Taken. They probably have them 9 times out of 10 in theme games.Vi wrote:Let me ask this--Do you think the Mafia have falseclaims in this game?PokerFace 99 wrote:I see a slight down side to it pending how significant or ill significant the character is. Some unknown in the white tiger will probably tell us nothing while someone that could rationaly be a miller would be more believeable. Basically the significance of her character can effect how her claim is viewed either way. normally though I see flavor claimed with role in theme games.
You can ask but I won't give it, I have my reasons.Pokerface 21 wrote:Should we ask for flavor with Juls claim at this time?
Recall that I was scum in Wolf and the Traveler's Road. Why would I wait to "try" it in this one as opposed to that one?Rhinox 24 wrote:However, its possible she'd been planning on trying it ever since that last game she linked to.
I would not be the best person to check sanity on because there is no way to confirm my role to you all until death.VP Baltar 33 wrote:On a purely hypothetical level, if cop received multiple guilties in a row and wasn't sure if they were true or not it could be worthwhile to test it on someone you are somewhat sure of what the result should be.
ORLY? Didn't you say as much with this...Rhinox 37 wrote:We're on page 2 and Juls has only posted what, 5 times, and you already think you can match her playstyle in this game to her other game? I find this suspicious.
--------Rhinox 24 wrote:Since I've been in so many games with Juls, I would say I don't think its in her nature to try this kind of a gambit as scum.
WTF? He is sleeping on the couch tonight. Passion is good. I am a competitive person. I hate cheaters, liars, and ass holes. Luckily, I don't see any in this game.PokerFace 29 wrote:I have seen/heard tales from Moratorioum of Juls getting frustraited deeply at a game even one as simple as a mishmash game so I already know part of the story checks out.
To the best of my knowledge, my "character" name is not one of the characters in Cowboy Bebop (I would need to verify that though, it has been years since I watched)...but you kinda just told us that you have a main character's name...I would be interested to know how many people do/don't have main character names but I don't know how to ask it without revealing potentially too much detail. NOTE: I am not asking that question at this point just thinking out loud, do not answer it and blame me for you answering!Pokerface 39 wrote:I have seen/heard tales from Moratorioum of Juls getting frustraited deeply at a game even one as simple as a mishmash game so I already know part of the story checks out.
And I am not looking for your sympathy? I royally screwed up in that game. I was too "young" of a player and I got quizzed strongly. It made me seem more scummy just because I didn't like the tone of the questioning. That being said, I learned a lesson and I am implementing that lesson here.Zilla 60 wrote:I don't know about Jul's threatening to quit mafiascum, but it doesn't earn any sympathy votes from me. I'm still mistrustful of something that potentially guarantees a free ride to end game, no matter what meta lies behind it.
A bit far into the game to ask a rhetorical question no? I actually explained it earlier. I watched Cowboy Bebop, I liked it. I like Jahudo as a mod, so I prein'd.VP Baltar 76 wrote:@Juls, have you seen Cowboy Bebop before and if not what made you decide to join this game?
School, finals, work. They are all done now. Jahudo can confirm that I told him I had finals yesterday and you should know it full well being I mentioned itRhinox 79 wrote:Juls' current behavior tells me nothing about her allignment, because she hasn't really said or done anything apart from claim miller. When she starts playing more, I'll take my meta of her more into consideration.
I have no expectations. I just want to hunt scum and end this theory conversation. There are pros and cons to each method. I chose this one and it can't be undone (nor would I undo it).don_johnson 94 wrote:Juls: please share your thoughts and expectations. Do you see any way that your claim/role can benefit town?
Well, I appreciate the "no offense" but I am slightly offended. I have played in quiet a few more games sense then and I think I do a decent job. Don't base your views of me on just one game that I got frustrated in.ShadowGirl 105 wrote:I don't believe her to be that experienced to perhaps successfully pull something off. (No offense to you, Juls.);
No he doesn't typically act cautious but I haven't played with him as scum yet (that I am aware of...still in two ongoing games with him). However, I don't know if I am willing to put him off as being "cautious" straight away. It could very well just be a nervous interaction with Vi because they do have good meta on each other.Pokerface 106 wrote:Does he normally act cautiosly on all options in games, or do you feel this trait is unique to only his scum or town play?
I got home last night and was pretty tired after taking two finals. I did not feel like posting. I had just enough time to update my Nomic game this morning. You guys might as well be prepared that I I have an 8-5 and other obligations on this sight but I will post at least once a day and probably more.Vi 107 wrote:Juls claims to be V/LA, but that doesn't seem to be impeding her Mish Mash duties
You may be on to something here.
Apologies. It wasn't meant to be an insult - the sentence following that was meant to be combined with the first one, not to really be read as a seperate point. My thoughts are rather disjointed. It's more of a nod to everyone in this game instead of a shot at you. And I have absolutely no sense of time. Is it really May? o_o;Juls wrote:Well, I appreciate the "no offense" but I am slightly offended. I have played in quiet a few more games sense then and I think I do a decent job. Don't base your views of me on just one game that I got frustrated in.
I, too, was talking about Juls lying about being a miller and not in general. My accusation is not that he was painting Juls as a saint but that he wanted Rhinox to only have one opinion, and that the opinion he suggested he have is that Juls is not lying.The implication in the excerpt from PokerFace's quote is that Juls is lying about being a Miller, not just lying in general. I see why you latched onto this, because as you're reading it this is PokerFace basically putting Juls up as an angel and smiting Rhinox for not recognizing it (here comes the drama), and it really looks bad. But I don't think that's what PF meant.
(I'm also not sure if it qualifies as a chainsaw defense, though I'm sure you'll see this as one.)
You lost me at "but are you drawing lines between scum buddies." I don't see where Baltar/Rhinox comes in in Pokerface's assessment, and the rest of this point seems to hinge on that...You seem to think juls is a confirmed miller. I see the “if” in your statement here, but are you drawing lines between scum buddies based on the speculation that juls is telling the truth? I would like you to explain this connection of baltar/rhinox? Personally I am suspicious of baltar at this point, but rhinox seems to be getting victimized. Also, Juls seems to be coasting on the “miller” claim.
This is true.vi wrote:What bothers me about this exchange is how Gorrad jumped onto VP Baltar's side of the life raft in 97.
@Gorrad: Why are you so interested in a potential Cop confirming sanity?
I don't see at all where you got this from the quote you posted in relation to it. Please elaborate.juls wrote:you kinda just told us that you have a main character's name
It wasn't a rhetorical question at all. I didn't recall seeing you saying this earlier. It was relevant because I like playing a bit strategic early on and I wanted you to answer it before weighing in on the flavor claim discussion. Had you said no (as some other people in this game have apparently not seen it), I would definitely be all about you claiming because it would be less likely that you'd be able to fake a claim easily. Now I know you've seen it. PF also brought up a good point about fake claims potentially being given to scum...though I don't have enough experience in theme games to know how common fakeclaims are. I think at this point I'm willing to wait for a flavour claim. If it gets closer (say a week before) to deadline and we have no other suspects I would likely support it.juls wrote:A bit far into the game to ask a rhetorical question no? I actually explained it earlier. I watched Cowboy Bebop, I liked it. I like Jahudo as a mod, so I prein'd.
UGH! For the last time, I would like to say that I never said it should be done or any potential cop should investigate you. I merely came up with a hypothetical situation in which claiming miller earlier rather than laterjuls wrote:I would not be the best person to check sanity on because there is no way to confirm my role to you all until death.
He did not speculate onjuls wrote:Because he speculated on which character might be a miller. That said to me that his role was a main character.
Vi did ask a group of question to some in context of his random voting if you'll look back. Sorry if I confused you there. The bonus question served a double purpose of seeing who would parrot others perhaps scumily.Zilla wrote:@ Vi's scumbuddy question: I thought it was you who made the questionnaire, that was actually pokerface. I retract my stance on your question asking, since it appears you are asking personal questions to each player that only they can possibly respond to anyway. Instead, this accusation shifts to Pokerface, based on his page 1 questionnaire. From that, I'd say he went soft on Juls (no question at all), ZEEnon (which do you think is better, RVS or discussion?), forbiddenlight (Weren't you the mod of the insane asylum game? What do you think of Juls claim here in relation to it?), and shadowgirl (Should we ask for flavor with Juls claim at this time?).
I see a bit of his reason for not wanting to ask everyone every question, but I think it would have been something to go on if we looked at the people that just repeated other answers.
I suppose I can see where you may have gotten that. I clarified that at the top of post 106I, too, was talking about Juls lying about being a miller and not in general. My accusation is not that he was painting Juls as a saint but that he wanted Rhinox to only have one opinion, and that the opinion he suggested he have is that Juls is not lying.
Huh? I ain't found the time to look back at your back and forth with Don johnson on the event of cops checking millers but I'm begining to think I'm miss read something there or your forget. I'll make time for this shortly.Baltar wrote:UGH! For the last time, I would like to say that I never said it should be done or any potential cop should investigate you. I merely came up with a hypothetical situation in which claiming miller earlier rather than later could be helpful. I really find the fact that people are trying to blow that up as somehow being suspicious pretty ridiculous and grasping.
You said it was pro-town of her to claim like that. I think its more pro-town to act super pro-town to get yourself killed at night. This is more of a strategy issue/disagreement than something I think would make a player scum.ZEEnon wrote:PokerFace wrote:Can't say I'm a fan of your answers but I don't believe they make you obv scum either.Wait, what?
Vote: PokerFace .
the way your original post was worded it seemed as though you were speaking with certainty that juls was in fact a miller. if juls is who she says she is, the only ones in this game who should be certain of that are scum, no? which brings me to shadowgirl.juls wrote:I would not be the best person to check sanity on because there is no way to confirm my role to you all until death.
game starts with a list of names. some are scum and some are town. we don't know which is which. in theory, everyone starts in the middle: neither scum/nor town. when you move a player from the middle to either end, you should be able to explain your reasoning. we don't allow votes with little reasoning, why should we allow "townie brownies" devoid of reasoning? you seem to be working from the standpoint that you believe juls. i can accept this, but you claim that your belief is based on two points. a) meta(of which you point to one game. b) her lack of experience causing you to believe she would not try this type of scum gambit. you have admitted that the meta is weak. tell me this: if you only have one game to draw this meta from, why are you so quick to now call her "inexperienced"? it just seems to me that you are trying to find any way you can to believe her claim. perhaps its because you know it to be true?sg wrote:Point one: I still don't get what the point in me providing evidence for her not being 'easily frustrated/irritable'. Can you explain this more clearly?
^^ this is the only part of your explanation that makes sense. why are you trying to bolster your position with more than this? i.e. saying her play is "frustrated/irritable, and that she is inexperienced.sg wrote:The fact that she claimed first thing is the icing on the cake, because of the experience she had in the other game she was miller, if she recieved the role again I believe she would claim it early.
bolded is the lose/lose question. it is not fair to ask such a thing. i am focusing no more on this subject than other players focusing on other things. yes, i suspect anyone who speaks with certainty of the knowledge of anothers role, especially on day 1 when the player in question has a total of four posts. i don't think asking to explain herself is out of line. in fact, there is a huge discrepancy in her reasoning. do you know what it is?vi wrote:I don't see a reason to. Do you?
*reads to You 100*
I don't see ShadowGirl's reason for letting Juls's Miller claim pass to be that scummy.Why are you focusing on it like a magnifying glass in the sun?Do you suspect ShadowGirl?
cop sanity has never been an issue for me. my issue is players speaking with certainty of the knowledge of another players role.vi wrote:This is getting tiresome. Is Cop sanity really that big a potential issue in this game? I personally prefer to assume that things AREN'T screwy until they are demonstrated to be so.
pf made a reference to a baltar/rhinox scum pairing. i was asking for clarification.zilla wrote:You lost me at "but are you drawing lines between scum buddies." I don't see where Baltar/Rhinox comes in in Pokerface's assessment, and the rest of this point seems to hinge on that...
what's a framer? like i have said, the sanity is not the issue for me, it was vp saying we could use juls to test a cop's sanity. the way the post was worded seemed to speak of certainty of juls being a miller. juls herself understands that she is not confirmed until death. yes, vp's post 104 seems to be consistent with the train of thought he presented earlier, so i can't accuse him of changing his story. that said:zilla wrote:I was totally with Don Johnson on this until VP pulled out the "outing a cop day 2." That was something I hadn't thought of, and I feel kinda dumb for thinking that a cop instantly claims as soon as one guilty is on the table. However, there still is the point that after lynching one "guilty" that comes up innocent, it's possible we have a paranoid cop rather than an insane one, that a framer was involved, and that any number of things are at play that can't be confirmed by wasting an investigation on Juls.
I think this is getting way too hypothetical at this point, and I think VP accounted for the scummy reasoning he had offered before.
) What's so "contradictory" about it?vote: shadowgirl you simultaneously admit to having weak meta knowledge on juls, but choose to believe her claim based on her inexperience. major contradiction.
bolded is what got my attention in the first place. i didn't miss that at all. also,who said "cornerstone"?Zilla wrote:Am I the only one who thinks that post of Don's is weird? He repeatedly calls on SG saying Juls was inexperienced being a cornerstone of her case, when she said it once, in support, and hasn't had time to react to Juls saying she has improved since then.He also misses VP saying that his entire illustration was a hypothetical to illustrate why claimig early would be beneficial, which DOES presuppose Juls to be pro-town miller.
how can she make a judgment of relative experience a player has in the game of mafia without knowing more about said player? i.e. sg claims to have very little knowledge of juls play in order to defend herself against the "meta" argument, but somehow knows enough about juls to use her experience level to make a determination about whether or not she would run a scum gambit. either sg has knowledge of juls meta or she doesn't. she claims she doesn't, so then how does she have any clue as to juls "experience" level? it seems as though her amount of knowledge in relation to juls fluctuates. make sense?zilla wrote:and this:
What's so "contradictory" about it?vote: shadowgirl you simultaneously admit to having weak meta knowledge on juls, but choose to believe her claim based on her inexperience. major contradiction.
Zilla wrote:I'm quite suspicious of ZEEnon's vote there. I don't see why he's voting Pokerface, even from the standpoint of not understanding what Pokerface was saying. The lack of elaboration is also disconcerting.