California Trilogy - Going to San Francisco (Game Over!)

[NabakovNabakov]

/confirm

[NabakovNabakov]

Vote: curiouskarmadog.

Good idea with the missing players test Thesp, I'll add on to it by bandwagoning:

Huh?


Assuming that the purpose of the vote is to find out if votes on missing persons register, what's the point of a second one? Is there really a possibility that single votes will register but wagons won't?

Michel, why did you bold Sarcastro?

Vote: Machiavellian-Mafia

, {Everybody Else}, No Lynch, NabNab

[NabakovNabakov]

I don't really agree with Sens' logic regarding no lynch. Yourself is the only 100% confirmed person in this game.

Not to mention that you should have at least some trust in yourself to be helpful to the town. If not, what are you even doing playing? (Unless, of course, you're scum)

I agree with Pookie's sentiment regarding Condorcet and how it shouldn't be a crutch, but if we do manage to make it to deadline without a majority, we'll either have to scramble to find a Condorcet winner (leaving more room for scum manipulation) or have no winner at all.

[NabakovNabakov]

Also, in your list, you give No Lynch equal preference to all players except me and yourself. Bit hypocritical, no?

Way to try and accuse me for not correcting the default of a system I said I didn't understand.

The following Xtoxm vote makes 5 of 8.

• *
  Unvote, Vote: Xtoxm
  
  *Michel
  *{everyone else}
  *SensFan
  *No Lynch

Actually, it only makes 4; Michel's vote was nothing new.

If Xtoxm is top of your list, why is the person you thought just voted for him second-to-top?

Unvote; Vote: Sensfan

, M-M, Xtoxm, FL, {others},{missing}, No Lynch, NabNab

[NabakovNabakov]

Maybe I'm stating the obvious, but there's lots of weird stuff going on around Pooky. We have Vollkan in one corner claiming him as 100% scum and MBL in another saying he will under no circumstances vote for him. Is there a joke I'm missing here? I also smell a PR (or at least some intense characterization)

[NabakovNabakov]

I've been remiss in keeping up with posting here and in my games, and letting other discussions take up the little time I've had lately. I have free time tonight - expect a good post from me then. My apologies.

Having a busy life is a scum tactic.

Mach-Maf's post is amusing, if likely fruitless.

rogueben is :goodposting:
I didn't actually read the post in detail, but he is :goodposting: nonetheless. Glorkspar gives him 4 stars out of 5.

I think we've estbalished that Xtox has no idea what he's talking about. FL's post seems :nothelpful: at best, fuel-on-the-fire at worst.

So is Xtoxm scum or not? He's obviously scummy enough to deserve your vote, but not scummy enough to justify bulky cases on him. It seems like the only thing you're advocating here is a blind lynch.

In my perception, Xtoxm hovers in and out of VIness, and I think the case on him hews closer to hapless ignorance than scummy intentions. I would rather he not be lynched today unless the deadline forces our lynch paramaters from "most scummy" to "least helpful"

[NabakovNabakov]

I definitely see a Pooky-Xtoxm scum connection here. Xtoxm has already ignored my questions twice, yet he eagerly answers questions from Pooky. Pooky is also ignoring my requests to elaborate on his ratings while he ironically is asking for Xtoxm to elaborate on details.

Pooky's questions deal with understanding Xtoxm's thought processes, which is something we all need to do before coming to a conclusion on whether or not he should be lynched. Your questions were phrased as traps and would have continued the cycle of ignorance that built the Xtoxm bandwagon in the first place. Learn the difference.

@FaerieLord: Any particular reason you followed MBL's lead in listing scummy posts? (Let me just say that this is the first time I've encountered this strategy and it really grates on me)

Unvote; Vote: Machiavellian-Mafia

, SensFan, FaerieLord, {All others present}, {Missing persons}, No Lynch, NabNab

[NabakovNabakov]

Dear Mr. NabokovMcNabokov,

Why did you take the time to tell everyone that you didn't like my first attempt at scumhunting this game and then not even list me in your list of possible scum? Looks like posturing to me.

I find them grating in a personal sense in that it's plainly frustrating to go back and find the posts and figure out why any one thing might be scummy (I generally consider quoting and pointing to be the responsibility of the person who wants to make a case, not everybody else). I feel there is also a slight effect in which one can list a lot of posts by one player, not explain why that player is scummy, but have an apparently justified vote because so many of that player's posts showed up on your scummy list. (Like you did with Xtoxm and FL almost did). But it's just a feeling.

It's not a big deal, but you are absolutely right, it was an oversight not to mention you too. I apologize.

Unvote
Vote: Machiavellian-Mafia,

Sensfan, MrBuddyLee, FaerieLord, {others present}, {others not present}, No Lynch, NabNab

[NabakovNabakov]

1. Address your stance on MBL now that he has a few more posts with content
2. Address specifically other relative lurkers and if you consider them scummy
3. Address specifically who on your wagon is scum and why

The first question gives Xtoxm a "stance" on MBL when all he had done at that point was call him a lurker prematurely. Did you seriously expect him to answer with a serious analysis of MBL's inscrutable list? A large portion of the posts on Lee's list were Xtoxm's, so I doubt he would have any idea why MBL considered them scummy in the first place let alone be able to defend or comment.

The second aims to keep Xtoxm's... unique stance on lurking in the discussion. This whole thing started when Xtoxm accused MBL of lurking, and now you're telling him to do the

exact same thing

with other players.

The third is similar to the second in that it takes a stupid thing that Xtoxm said and tries to further it.

Maybe it isn't intentional, but these questions are traps. Xtoxm makes a stupid call on MBL for lurking, so you ask him to analyze the most opaque post of the entire game. Xtoxm's views of what does and doesn't qualify as lurking put him in hot water, so you ask him to tell you who the lurkers are. Xtoxm makes a generalization that it's fairly obvious he can't back up, so you tell him to do so.

And yes, I am defending Xtoxm. I have a tendency to cut players a break when it seems they really don't have a handle on the game (Meta me, it's true*), and I'm taking the roughly 25% chance (diluted from what I see as town VI tells and indications of dirty wagoning) that his role was actually a scum one.

*jk

[NabakovNabakov]

A general question to everyone: When you observe a player behaving irrationally, how does that generally affect your interpretation of their alignment?

Depending on the player, environment, and level of irrationality, I sometimes discount what I would see as scumtells in other players, but I also tend to WIFOM less (If they're not smart enough to look pro-town when they want to, they certainly aren't smart enough to pretend to look anti-town for the sake of looking pro-town).

@M-M: I can see the pro-town explanations behind your questions just fine, but they seem fairly convoluted for their stated purpose (If you had phrased them the way you had in your explanation, we wouldn't be having this conversation), giving Xtoxm forum to make a further fool of himself. To adopt your metaphor, you saw Xtoxm using a shovel and offered to lend him a backhoe.

[NabakovNabakov]

Both Niv and MSH are looking very duplicitious for their attitudes on Condorcet. MSH seems almost obsessed with ensuring that there is always a Condorcet winner, even to the point that he is willing to crown a player he doesn't even think is scum, but he insists on seeing a more convincing case on MM before he'll place a standard vote. Niv, on the other hand, makes a post about how much he would love a standard lynch followed by a condorcet where

he doesn't even vote his top suspect

.

@MSH: Who would you rather lynch, Niv or MM?

@Niv: Who would you rather lynch, MM or Xtoxm?

I'm not sure how this all reflects on allignment, but it certainly indicates that people really have to get their priorities in order when in comes to votes.

[NabakovNabakov]

Considering that both claims could have been drawn fromThis List, I'm inclined to trust Niv's claim. Robin Williams is listed as only living in SF, he wasn't born there. If you were looking for a safe claim, would you bypass the list of actors born in SF and go straight to the residents? Seems unlikely. MM's feels far more like a pure safeclaim.

Niv, you might want to consider using your ability considering that you're still the condorcet winner.

I would be happy with either a MM or FL lynch, but MM seems more likely (the only person who beats his condorcet is Niv)

Vote: Machiavellian-Mafia

, Faerie Lord, Sensfan, MichelSabelHart, {others present}, {others not present}, No Lynch, NabNab

[NabakovNabakov]

Wikipedia sez "[Keith] Hernandez may have been the best defensive first baseman in MLB history" So there's a pretty good chance Gorrad was RB.

I would not support jumping to conclusions as to what exactly got people out of the basement, there's just too much chance of confusing our variables. I would like to see what the forthcoming flavor scene has to say.

[NabakovNabakov]

What have you been getting out of the scenes? I can't make anything of them.

Well, for one thing I've been scanning for evidence of Mr. Grey's part in all this (At this point I'm unsure as to whether or not his "hospitality" is malicious or merely expedient to the plot). Also, the scene gives a fairly clear indication that FL had a scum role. You also got to wonder how/why exactly so many people managed to get "lost" in various parts of Mr. Grey's house.

Actually playing the game, I see no particular reason to disbelieve the account of what happened in the basement. If one was scum lying, the other townie would have exposed them, and them both being scum seems very unlikely just from the perspective that it would mean Gorrad got completely and unescapably screwed by the setup. The one thing I'm not clear on is the timeframe. How long was OGML able to hammer Gorrad? When in that time did Gorrad claim?

@CKD/OGML: What do you guys have to say about the game so far? What did you talk about in the basement?

Tag fixed. - Mod

[NabakovNabakov]

Nab, we talked about who he thought was scummy (up here) after the Gorrad lynch, but conversation died off

Yeah... but who and why?

Treat this like you're a replacement.

[NabakovNabakov]

Eh, I can kind of see the distancing (that's what you're implying isn't it?). The way Gaspar fell off Thesp's list but continued to remain high in Pooky's rankings. Gaspar and Pooky fighting over Condorcet/nothing, but I see it as cutting too big a swath on too little information (distancing rarely factors much into identifying scum against two unknowns for me, only reinforcing suspicions and connecting to dead players). Out of the three, Thesp seems the scummiest for bare bones play, posting a Condorcet right after agreeing with Pooky on Condorcet and pushing MM (known town) over FL (known scum) for vague reasoning.

Also, why couldn't FL had been craplogicing Niv-town? Do you distrust his claim?

[NabakovNabakov]

Point taken, though her character

was

defined as "the lowest of the low, a vile pox on our society".

[NabakovNabakov]

There is no pro-town reason I can think of to wait around for the partner.

If you had the ability to hammer out a complex or controversial point with somebody else before you posted (especially when that person's name would be attached to the post in addition to yours) don't you think you would seek their input town or no?

That said, BBMars has been pretty lurkerish, two people can certainly post more than they did yesterday.

I'd like to see how they react to a wagon

Vote: BBMars

[NabakovNabakov]

Role Name: Innocent San Franciscan
Alignment: Innocent
Flavor Text: You're just a resident of San Francisco on the way home, wondering how you ended up in this situation.
Abilities: You have no night abilities.
Win Condition: You win if all threats to the town are eliminated and at least one innocent is alive.

Tags removed. Please use bold tags only for voting and unvoting. - Mod

[NabakovNabakov]

It would seem that the sample Role PM would indicate that Innocent was, in fact, an allignment and not a role, meaning that there shouldn't have been/shouldn't be any confusion about this.

[NabakovNabakov]

For the record, my only intention in reposting the PM was to make sure everybody was on the same page regarding reveals. I consider the whole "well,

you

wouldn't know because your PM has a different allignment" idea to be underhanded and superficial, and if Vollkan placed just as little worth on it, I think a "reasonable question" is raised in: "Then why did he post it in the first place?"

[NabakovNabakov]

Actually playing the game, I see no particular reason to disbelieve the account of what happened in the basement. If one was scum lying, the other townie would have exposed them, and them both being scum seems very unlikely just from the perspective that it would mean Gorrad got completely and unescapably screwed by the setup.

Agreed (unless there's the highly unlikely scenario that they're both scum, but for different factions/for themselves, but I find this to be dubious at best). I'm struggling to avoid potentially harmful speculation here.

Unallied scum/anti-towns would still have no reason to corroborate each other's story.

Nabakov's vote annoys me. I hate when people say "I am going to bandwagon you to get reactions" because it warns people - especially the wagonee - that their response will be scrutinized, thus making it less likely that they'll react in a blatantly scummy manner (unless "blatant scumminess" is a part of their identity).

Do you honestly think BBMars would not think he+she was under scrutiny if I hadn't said that? It's pretty hard to miss what with half the town expressing an interest in his+her bandwagon. At least what I did served to get a reaction rather than

just

as a tip-off.

[NabakovNabakov]

Also, major FOS to Gaspar for zeroing in (incorrectly) on my bait (setup speculation about the basement) and ignoring the crux of my point which is that OGML has played scummily.

Why do you assume it was Gaspar's mission to defend OGML? Where did he ever say "The basment town didn't necessarily have scum, so lay off OGML"? Why are you unwilling to admit you jumped into second-guessing the setup?

[NabakovNabakov]

I'M THE ONE WHO POINTED OUT HIS HORRENDOUSLY DANGEROUS LOGIC TO BEGIN WITH, SO I BELIEVE I BEAT YOU, GOOD SIR.

Um, guys. I think I grabbed the prime real-estate on this one.

[NabakovNabakov]

selective reading

You mean the kind of selective reading that would take a post apparently utilizing craplogic and find a bizzare interpertation (involving one, possibly two completely unconventional roles) that was maybe not craplogic?

[NabakovNabakov]

Why do you assume it was Gaspar's mission to defend OGML? Where did he ever say "The basment town didn't necessarily have scum, so lay off OGML"?

Feel free to replace Gaspar with any other name you've lumped with him.

But you're right, I haven't discussed OMGL outright. I was unsure of his play in the basement, but I think I've gotten the straightest answers I'm going to get from him and CKD, so I'm not really willing to draw any sweeping conclusions from that.

I definitely see the point about the lack of scumhunting, and I think it's very surprising that the best we've been able to get out of OGML and CKD combined in terms of scumhunting is a "vibe" on Vollkan, an OMGUS vote on yourself, and a now-redacted case on Xtoxm. They did have all of yesterday to read the main thread.

I'm getting fairly negative vibes and keeping an eye out (I'm still kind of lumping him and CKD together as recent arrivals), but I'm just not seeing the airtight case you claim to be laying down here.

[NabakovNabakov]

I agreed with what MBL had to say on OGML's "scumhunting" post before he even said it.

Thesp seems quite behind the times in general. Quoting that MBL post is

so

last week.

BBMars would be an acceptable lynch (LAL), but I think we have a better option in OGML.

Unvote; Vote: OhMyGodLIfe

, BBMars, Thesp, MichelSableHart, {others}, No Lynch, NabNab

[NabakovNabakov]

Thesp seems quite behind the times in general. Quoting that MBL post is

so

last week.

Are you suggesting that MBL has already received all the attention he needs?

I certainly think that post in particular is in in the running for most quoted post of the game, and your elipsis didn't really add anything to it while ignoring the reams of content since posted regarding it. Unless there's some vital connection I'm missing, your question about MSh seemed a non-sequiter too. Looks like fake content.

interesting how the wagon is coming together here at deadline even though BBmars was such a suspect.

I won't speak for anybody else, but for me, BBMars was a comfortable place to stick my vote. It's hard to go wrong pressuring lurkers, and compunded misgivings about sparse D1 play meant I wouldn't be distraught if it ended up being a lynch.

[NabakovNabakov]

So this came at the end of the day yesterday…What was your point? I said after I thoroughly read I really didn’t know why my vibe meter went off. He was still placed above “everyone else”..so what was your point? And why was it important to get that in yesterday? Would you have preferred I kept barking up his tree even though I felt there was nothing there? Your thoughts on volkan? Now that you know the alignments for Bbmars and OGML, where are you going to look now?

I know being defensive isn't a scum tell, but wow. There's only so many times (one) a guy can say "so what's your point" before my eyebrows raise.

I'm not sure how much correlation there is between OGML hoppers and scum. The two main wagons (BBMars, OGML) were both on town. It was either one of those or a no-lynch; the scum could only lose if they stuck themselves out into the open and changed their vote for a crappy reason.

[NabakovNabakov]

If Xtoxm is top of your list, why is the person you thought just voted for him second-to-top?

Unvote; Vote: Sensfan, M-M, Xtoxm, FL, {others},{missing}, No Lynch, NabNab

I don't see being suspicious of someone who just voted the player you're voting for as very inconsistent, or deserving of a vote. I'm sceptical of what Nab was actually asking about here. I also note that he placed Xtoxm below MM. At this point of the game, I'd be much happier with an Xtoxm lynch.

I didn't really see all that much to say in the game but had to make a post somehow/someway. I don't think asking the question is unreasonable though the vote might have been.

It's easy to condemn a wagon when that name is already revealed as town when you replace in.

[NabakovNabakov]

Hi Nab Nab Hi

How are you today? Ok, a little under the weather (I can't decide if it's allergies or a true-blue cold)

Whatcha think about the game? More time per-day would be nice, I'm a very drawn out player.

Think we gonna win? I think we have a pretty good chance. We've had two mislynches, but they've been pretty info rich and it seems as if NK's are being held to lower than is to be expected in a setup this large. If we lose, it'll be close.

You scum? Nope

Who's scum? I'm looking at MSh the most right now. No matter how he justifies it, his condorcet play D1 was confusing and often contradicted his statements. It's easy to hide your vote when you dedicate it to ensuring a condorcet majority. CKD has also seemed a bit off to me. His cases on Xtoxm and Niv felt very opportunistic and didn't dig very deep. He also stayed far out of MBL vs. OGML (though he didn't shy away from using it in accusations of Niv). Seems kind of odd considering how convinced he was that OGML was town. Labeling a player as town but doing nothing truly effective in the face of their wagon/lynch has always struck me as very scummy (because I have a tendency to do it as scum). I'm keeping an eye on other players, but I'd rather not irk Gaspar by saying who/why.

What did you eat for dinner? This semi-healthy linguini alfredo deal. It's like the egg/butter/cream/bacon classic but with peppers and asparagus instead of bacon. It was decent but too dry.

What is your opinion of Gaspar? I'm not sure what to think here. Glork and Primate both have reputations for scumhunting and it certainly feels as if they caught FL D1 (if she was scum). I was on board with their original challenge to MBL's logic regarding the basement, but I think they switched a little too readily once MBL seemed to pull back the cloak and clammed up too much. Switch back to "we were decieved" D3 seems likewise too swift/quiet.

Tags removed. Please use bold tags only for voting and unvoting. - Mod

[NabakovNabakov]

did I really stay out of the OGML va. MBL debate, or did I state my opinion on OGML yesterday numerous times...I didnt know his alignment, so I wasnt going to push anymore than that..I felt he was town, state so, but I am not going to forcefully stick my neck out for someone I am not certian of....are you?

seems to me that you are warping what really happened yesterday...why?

I will admit that some of OGML's zealotry on the topic leaked into my perception of your postion, but we still have this:

I am leaning town. LIke I said when i first came into the game today, he had plenty of time to hammer me with Gorrad and he did not take it...he could have easily hammered me with his first couple posts and fall back on (today) that Gorrad was being scummy because he felt Gorrad had inside information (at least one scum in each group)...hell, he could have hammered me and spun today that in retrospect, gorrad's push for my lynch was scummy. This would have given him another target today that he could have organized with his scum buddies last night. Now I think about it, he could have organized an attack on me today if he was scum pretty easily. Once he got into the thread today and saw there was no way he could reference or quote the basement, he could have lied about how events went down in the basement, or at least slanted the truth somewhat.

He also didnt immediately hammer Gorrad when he had the shot either, and gave him time to address my post.

I understand it could have been a ruse to earn some town creds, but the way that it went down yesterday makes me think otherwise.

That's a pretty strong endorsement, and I would think that if this post is a true indicator, you would have at least acknowledged the firestorm coming down around OGML (or even the firestorm coming down around MBL's logic). OGML Vs. MBL was one of the biggest topics of yesterday, yet you have no significant comment on it or participation in it. Regardless of your history with OGML (which in this case happens to be significant), it is odd that it was something you weren't involved with on any level.

You know I back those I think need backing. Also, it seems a bit soon to jump to "warped" considering this was the first time quotes have entered into the discussion.

I didn't really see all that much to say in the game but had to make a post somehow/someway. I don't think asking the question is unreasonable though the vote might have been.

It's easy to condemn a wagon when that name is already revealed as town when you replace in.

I wasn't speaking about the wagon or MM's alignment, but your reason for making a vote. Random voting was more or less over by this stage, so yes, I am perceiving this vote as serious and questionable.

Sensfans' 111 says differently.

It's easy to condemn a wagon when that name is already revealed as town when you replace in.

Are you suggesting he not analyze wagons on townies?

Are you suggesting he was analyzing wagons on townies?

I'm keeping an eye on other players, but I'd rather not irk Gaspar by saying who/why.

Honestly, you'd probably irk me more by implying that I'm preventing you from sharing your opinions with the town.

These aren't opinions, they're suspicions and tabs, and they would become harder to track if shared. (Read: It's taken me 10 pages, but I agree)

Firestarter Musing of the day: P'raps we have a cult and a vig. Discuss.

One killing role seems very low. Cult would only exacerbate given how quiet nights make for easy recruiting, and in the absence of a mafia (or presumably any other role that would cause the CL to die upon targeting) it would take a definite CL lynch to stem the tide.

I suspect that no matter what the scum setup, we're looking at at least two killing roles for a game this size (if only to keep it of a sane length). We could have just gotten lucky on docs n' blocks, but there's also a chance that one of them is hiding in the attic.

NN -

Unvote; Vote: Sensfan, M-M, Xtoxm, FL, {others},{missing}, No Lynch, NabNab

I find it strange he keeps me high on the list here, having played with him recently.

However, looking at this

In my perception, Xtoxm hovers in and out of VIness, and I think the case on him hews closer to hapless ignorance than scummy intentions. I would rather he not be lynched today unless the deadline forces our lynch paramaters from "most scummy" to "least helpful"

Perhaps my time perception is not great, the games migth have started at similar times etc, he has expressed this view as town on me before in other games.

I was hedging my bets in that condorcet. I don't give slopply players the benefit of the doubt automatically, and I wanted to see more of your play before I made the decision (also remember that the model we're talking about was/is ongoing and so can't really be an accurate indicator of your town play)

[NabakovNabakov]

I'm kinda confused by the nature of the Xtoxm/Vollkan debate. Its subject matter is ages old, and they both seem to driven by by defensive OMGUS. Reads extremely distancy (perhaps leading back to the Gaspar Theory of Cult Existence)

To a certain extent I'm willing to accept Pooky's dicking around as a non-tell (especially when it leads to valuable questions as it has in the past), but there's a certain point (and I think discussing the MSh hammer flirts with this point) where it becomes a facade to hide behind as scum.

[NabakovNabakov]

The case against OGML as stated by MBL came down basically to "OGML has done hardly any scumhunting".

Not true. A large portion of my vote (and MBL's case) was based on the contradictions in the scumhunting OGML eventually came back with.

I agree with that; it's one of the reasons I hammered OG

What are the others?

Also, is it really all that surprising that so many people turned on OGML after he made 520? It was an atrocious post. Go back and read it and tell me what you think.

Well Nab, did I stay out of the fight and not give my opinion or did I put forth a strong endorsement? I didnt participate in it, are you reading the thread? I said my piece about OGML, I attacked others who I thought we scummy...I explained why I felt OGML was scummy, but I didnt know his alignment...I felt like I stuck my head out there enough for him...my "strong endorsement" was putting in my two cents into that arguement....please explain how is wasnt.

I am curious, you are obviously wanting to get somewhere with this bogus line of logic...where to? What are you trying to gather with my "lack of getting into the arguement". It is easy to say someone is scummy, but harder to say someone is town...

It's OGML's conflict with MBL that I'm most interested in as that was what really brought about his lynch. Feel free to quote posts in which you reference it. The point I'm trying to make here is that your endorsement of OGML was ineffective and never tried to be effective (at least in my perception), and I see that as a scumtell. However, going back over meta records, I see you were gone for the height of the controversy, so I'm willing to cut a break.

[NabakovNabakov]

How is the age of the subject matter at all relevant?
What does "defensive OMGUS" even mean?
Would I be right in presuming that "extremely distancing" means something along the lines of "I can't see this leading to a lynch"?

The fact that the subject matter is old simply bears mentioning. Your quoting of Vollkan's old analysis was an almost complete non-sequiter, and you don't usually see reruns like that without good reason.

Defensive OMGUS is more focused on the accusations against you than it is on accusing others.
Defensive OMGUS: "Your vote is bad because of X,Y, and Z, and you're scum"
Offensive OMGUS: "Your vote is bad, and you're scum because of X, Y, and Z"

No, I didn't see that leading anywhere productive. It was an outmoded, halfhearted discussion that could certainly be seen as distancing.

[NabakovNabakov]

Question though Nab, explain to me how one is “effective” in terms of endorsements. Also, explain to me why you deem it a scum tell when someone is not “effectively” endorsing someone that they are not 100% sure about. What would your opinion have been of me today if he would have flipped scum (excluding the fact that both of us were in the basement).

You actively assert their innocence and combat the forces attempting to lynch them rather than passively stating your belief that they are town (sort of like the difference Pooky was explaining (not that I would call Pooky's tactics ineffective per se)). Don't try to feed me "100%" bullshit, perhaps I'm picking it up wrong, but from your post, it seems you had a strong enough read to go out on a limb if you had had the guts to. It's not like we're talking about cop investigations. If OGML had flipped scum I would have figured you'd made a bad read on him, and that's the thing, your endorsement feels perfectly genuine and confident, it just leads nowhere.

@Pooky: Is there any particular reason a dead townie is in the "Sell+" category and one role (Sensfan/destructor) is listed twice? Did you really put as much effort into this as you've implied?

Vote: MichelSablehart

[NabakovNabakov]

Nab, I was answering a question that was directed to me..."out on a limb "implies that I was not provoked to comment on him numerous times yesterday. Nab, you like to boast that you have a pretty good read (meta) on me even though you have only been in with or modded games that I was town. Have you ever seen me as town

" actively assert (someone's) innocence and combat the forces attempting to lynch them rather than passively stating (my) belief that they are town" for ANYONE that I had a vibe town from unless I was a cop backed by an investigation?

Now, that's a trick question. The first game I played with you was forever long and we were both newbies. The one I modded with you, you were a cop.

I really don't feel like combing back through other games, but I'll just say that if defending players who need defending isn't part of your meta, it certainly should be.

And have I said you're being defensive yet?

[NabakovNabakov]

As has been pointed out, I am the person quoted in the above as Xtoxm.

NN, I don't follow you here. How is criticising a dodgy vote OMGUS? If something is objectively flawed, it shouldn't matter who raises the flaws.

As in,
Player X votes Player Y for reasons a, b, and c. Why should it be wrong for Y to criticise a, b, and c, but not for Y to?

My questions of Xtoxm were directed as to investigating the reasons for what he said. Yes, I was criticising his reasons (or, rather, the lack of clarity in them) for voting me - but I don't see how you can construe that as being at all problematic

What I see as defensive OMGUS is not in itself scummy, but it contributes to my evaluation of the conversation being distancy. It provides an opportunity to attack but fails to get others drawn into a potential wagon. I'm really not interested in the specifics of the discussion, just the overall sense of distancing.

@CKD: No, defensiveness is not a scumtell, but you've been positively prickly (especially regarding OGML), and I just thought it should be noted.

MSh's claim seems thourough enough, but I'm not quite sure where to put my vote now (Rogueben is tempting but it would take to long to assemble a case and wagon). Gaspar, ican you please give a good explanation on MBL?

Unvote

[NabakovNabakov]

@Destructor: Why place the two most likely candidates for a lynch near the bottom of your condorcet? At this point, all it will do is foul up the count.

I think I'd rather swing for a Niv vote at this point. He's already claimed, hasn't been very productive, and we have a couple of players very much dedicated/attached to his lynch. I'm not particuarlly convinced MBL or Niv are scum, but we need a lynch.

Vote: Niv

, MBL, {others}, No Lynch, NabNab

[NabakovNabakov]

8 minutes to deadline

I'm quite pissed Vollkan never finished his suspect list, how about commenting on a player who is actually up for a lynch?

If Pooky was so against contaminating potential debate, why did he post a barebones case on me at deadline?

Disliking the MBL wagon even more. What he's saying makes fairly good sense, and it has far more "townie making his last accusations before death" than "Scum flailing for an alternative" (in that case, he would have voted Niv). Lack of claim is odd considering he posted while neck-neck with Niv.

[NabakovNabakov]

-Nab has risen on my list due to the aforementioned "MBL more likely protown" point

Wait, what? Expand this and I'll address it.

So Niv obviously wasn't Robin Williams, but he did seem to prove to have the power he claimed to have. The targeting-Pooky-but-getting-busdrivered-to-Rogueben story reads like total bullshit, but I don't know if Niv + Rogueben would be graceless enough to organize a song and dance like that.

[NabakovNabakov]

@Gaspar: Still waiting on enlightenment.


It is highly unlikely, in my opinion, that SCAPE is recruit based. We've revealed two members of the Dixie Chicks so far, so unless A) They were original members of the scumgroup that can also recruit B) They were both town roles (masons?) and recruited or C) Role names are changed upon recruitment, we're probably looking at a nonviolent mafia.

Nab, do you think a Pooky->Rogueben rediction/deflection in Night 1 is unlikely?

It felt like intentional misdirection when I first read it, and that's only reinforced by Niv's flip, possibly to fool any potential watchers/trackers? (If Niv had an ability other than the one he stated, he could have used that on Pooky and had Rogueben on hand to corroborate), but I feel like I'm going too far into speculation here.

[NabakovNabakov]

Nab: Your jump onto MBL after I first attacked his ridiculous antics seemed by far the most opportunistic and gave cause for concern. Your contributions, IMO, have been minimal throughout the game. If anybody threw Niv under the bus yesterday, it was probably you.

Really? I was being opportunistic? You were the first to assault MBL's faulty logic regarding scum in the basement, I'll give you that, but read my 470 (the first time I joined that discussion or posted since it had begun), it adds more dimension to the arguments than the other parrots who had come before me. And if I was really being opportunistic and trying to get MBL lynched, why did I never vote for him or encourage anybody else to vote for him? What opportunity, exactly, was I siezing?

Again, what reason would I have to bus Niv? At the time of my post, it was virtually neck and neck, and nobody would have batted an eye if I had voted for the counterwagon (MBL), though I suppose I would have caught flak for it today. Why wouldn't CKD or Thesp be more likely bussers?

I still remain confused as to why MBL-town makes me scum, considering that I blatantly passed up several opportunities to drive for an MBL lynch.

[NabakovNabakov]

You were the first to assault MBL's faulty logic regarding scum in the basement

For the (not really) last time, reread it and realize that I didn't use faulty logic. I never said that both were town or both were scum or any BS like that. I just theorized neutrally to see what discussion would come of it. The more dead town that come out of that basement, the more I suspect there's a scum putting them down there.

That's fine, and its been sorted out now, but at the time, it appeared to be faulty logic.

nobody would have batted an eye if I had voted for the counterwagon (MBL), though I suppose I would have caught flak for it today. Why wouldn't CKD or Thesp be more likely bussers?

This reads suspiciously like the post of a man who knows my alignment. (Except what's with the busing part, who were CKD and Thesp busing? Niv? I don't buy that at all.)

I'm being accused under the assumption that you are town, so I will defend myself under the same assumption.

I'm not accusing CKD or Thesp of bussing, but they voted under similar circumstances with about equal amounts of commitment (though I realize CKD had it out for Niv for a while). Do you buy that I was bussing?

[NabakovNabakov]

The fact that Nabs goes to Mach in the face of a rising Nivwagon is also a point against him. The flip-flop on Xtox is interesting, though. He goes from the top of Nabs' list to Nabs defending him outright.

How does third in an early condorcet translate to "top of Nabs' list"? Why are you pigeonholing me?


MBL v. Gaspar makes my brain hurt. I'll let it stew, reread, and come back with something worthwhile.

[NabakovNabakov]

* Nab Defended MBL before lynch yesterday, attacked by Gaspar for opportunism on MBL, has no suspicions today

Quite right, I'm having difficulty finding anything that doesn't feel like following somebody else.

As following goes:

I've always been unnerved (in a meta sense) by the severity of Vollkan's logic, and I've had discussions with him about this, but I've always seen it as a place for him to hide as scum. I understand the pressure Thesp placed on him, but I see it as extremely suspicious when he votes straight off his list. It's difficult for me to take his listed suspicions as legitimate scumhunting worthy of a vote. His paragraphs followed by numbers don't represent actual cases but only his gutless gut reads.

@Vollkan: If you truly suspect MBL more than anybody else, give us more than you already have on the subject, cause all I have now is "MBL lynched OGML"

@Gaspar: Do you think MBL is scum?

[NabakovNabakov]

By this point OGML had obviously started to pick his play up.

What was that? I've believe we've been over this before, but despite being made by a player who ultimately flipped town, that post was incredibly scummy. I had my reservations on placing what would amount to essentially a "me too" vote (that's something I

always

tell scum partners in newbie games not to do), but I was and am confident that the subject matter would speak for itself.

Also, your being consistently hundreds of posts behind the game has been an even more creative way to dodge responsibility than Vollkan's. I know being thourough is a good thing, but this is the most tortourously drawn out replacement read I've ever seen. Up your ping or drop your resolution.

[NabakovNabakov]

This would be the post (520)

My condorcet, with reasons:

MBL - You're trying very, very hard to convince people I am made of pure, unadulterated evil, and have simultaneously gone about extremely dangerous setup speculation that seems to either set up a second mislynch (on CKD next) or directly contradict your hypothesis that I am scum (if there really is a role out there that put the basement-dwellers there in the first place). You're also bunching together anyone who got a whiff of the shit you were selling and trying to paint the lot of us badly when you were the one who came out with the craplogic in the first place. You remain my preferred lynch for the day.

Xtoxm - You did the same thing as MBL is now doing with the setup speculation, albeit in a much more straightforward manner. You were also willing to admit it was not necessarily the case. However, day two you've been doing very little aside from playing follow the leader with Gaspar (even admitting so and saying its because Gaspar looks pro-town), and day one I think there were a few too many people pulling out the VI defense for you, to the point where you barely even had to defend yourself. I think you should have been the lynch yesterday, and if you do cardflip scum then all the people who harped on the VI factor when it looked like you were about to get strung up will go under serious scrutiny.

BBMars - I agree with the case already made against you by others and will move you further up my condorcet if necessary to secure a deadline lynch, though this is not in any way preferable to the two I've already listed.

Rogueben - Something about your day one play made me uneasy, and I also think you're one of the more likely to have been trying to get the wagon off of Xtoxm to save a scumbuddy. Post 365 also looks to me like a warning to a scumbuddy to stop being dumb, since you bring up his poor play but don't actually come to a conclusion as to it meaning anything.

LML - Well, you haven't actually done anything yet this game, my suspicion comes from Sensfan. If Xtoxm is in fact town, I see him as the one most taking advantage of the easy wagon, as he jumps on late and later expresses the opinion that he'd like to lynch a pro-town VI just to be rid of a distraction. Other than wagoning X, the only thing he did at the end of the day was call for claims for M-M and Niv.

Niv - You are only listed above {People} because of your last line of Post 451 (which is what put you on my last condorcet) and for your response to my complaint about that, in Post 479 where you acknowledge that you "must have missed the other two" but do nothing to change your condorcet to reflect that.

{People} - I don't have strong feelings on anybody I didn't specifically list. The only one I want to mention is Pooky. I'm not a fan of his method but I don't think its scummy and obviously he isn't going to change it for me if he's unwilling to do so after heated discussion with Vollkan and the repeated attacks from Niv. I hope on later days your tactics will change.

CKD - Not willing to see him lynched. I'm town, he's town. His actions in the basement run counter to what would be in his best interest as scum. There is really very little that would change my position on him.

Unvote; Vote: MBL

, Xtoxm, BBMars, Rogueben, LML, Niv, {People}, CKD, No Lynch, OGML

This only came after enormous pressure from MBL, and his list of suspicions reads completely artificial, as if it was formulated only to quiet MBL and not because he was actually hunting scum.

His case on MBL, his top suspect, doesn't even acknowledge MBL's explanation for his speculation and is mostly dressed up OMGUS.

His Xtoxm case is all smoke: he said silly things about the setup but realized they were wrong, he's following Gaspar but is open about how he feels he is pro-town (and OGML clearly felt Gaspar to be pro-town or neutral too), people were using the VI defense, but he might not be a VI. None of it coheres into any idea of Xtoxm being scum.

BBMars is a standard lurker plug

Suspicion of Rogueben is based on a tangental connection to the still fairly unfounded belief that Xtoxm is scum.

Suspicion of LML deviates wildly from this belief, positing a situation in which Xtoxm is scum and LML is town. Shows a lack of coherent thought process or a need to pad

And seriously, if you were going to be suspicious of Niv, there's better material than what OGML presents. OGML obviously wasn't putting a whole hell of a lot of effort into this if he couldn't be bothered to follow his suspcions elsewhere.

The moment I saw this post, I balked and became pretty damn sure OGML was scum. And no, nothing improved from that point. OGML fell back into a purely defensive posture and stayed there until he was lynched. The above post represents almost the full extent of all scumhunting OGML did.


All I'm saying about the re-read is that a player who is stuck one day behind the rest of the game doesn't comment on current events and is able to hide behind hindsight. It's tough to be wrong when you comment on wagons that have already gone through, and it's tough to be lynched if you're never wrong. I'm not saying a long re-read is guaranteed malicious, but I would definitely like to hear from you on things that are happening now.

[NabakovNabakov]

there is no reason for you to say that.

Vote {Xtoxm,

Gaspar, MS} {Nab, vollkan}, Rogue, MBL, {everyone else}, CKD

There was no reason to do that. Yes, Xtoxm is irrationally defending Gaspar, but the only way he would be scum because of that is if he was scum with Gaspar. Jumps from living players to their defenders based on the scumminess of the first player are scummy.

Also, I giggled when Xtoxm complained about having to make substantial posts in the midst of three short posts.

I'm going to put some throught into my post, but I'm looking the most at Vollkan right now. I honestly get the impression (emphasis on impression, I haven't had the time to actually analyze) that Gaspar vs. MBL is town V. town. Both are going out on too many limbs to prove the scumminess of the other to make it worthwhile scumtactic.

[NabakovNabakov]

@CKD: Yeah, that was an oversight on my part, but the same principle applies. Saying "This living player is this allignment because this living player might be this allignment" is going way out on a limb. Do you think Gaspar is scum? Do you think there's a legitimate threat of his being lynched? Shouldn't you know by now Xtoxm is irrational by habit?

You don't have to have read everything to be able to get involved in the game.

I agree with NN's stance on that.

The thing is, if you look at Destructor's Posts, you'll see that even as he reads parts of the game,

HE IS INVOLVED

.

I think NN's taking a potshot (and a pretty bad one, at that) at Destructor.

I would argue that his involvement (restricted almost entirely to the beginning of today) has been fairly limited, and coincidentally, pertaining mainly to analyzing wagons that have already ended. If you were going to mischaracterize my actions, OMGUS would have been a better term anyway.

As of now, I'm not gunning for destructor's lynch*, but I think it would be

helpful to the town

if he somehow found a way to get his ass in gear, considering on a personal note, that this is the second (third?) he's voted for me from a perspective that's out of context.

*Dear Vollkan, Where did I threaten destructor? Sincerely, NabNab

[NabakovNabakov]

*Dear Vollkan, Where did I threaten destructor? Sincerely, NabNab

All I'm saying about the re-read is that a player who is stuck one day behind the rest of the game doesn't comment on current events and is able to hide behind hindsight. It's tough to be wrong when you comment on wagons that have already gone through, and it's tough to be lynched if you're never wrong. I'm not saying a long re-read is guaranteed malicious, but I would definitely like to hear from you on things that are happening now.

You insinuate that destructor's play is anti-town (I disagree, per my previous post) and potentially a scummy means of avoiding culpability. You request a commentary on current events (as I said, this is impossible without destructor at least skimming - and, even then, it depends on the individual).

The threat is that insinuation. I don't believe you are the sort of person who would ignore the likelihood that this is just ordinary replacement play, so that makes me wonder why you would resort to insinuations about destructor's motives - which, no matter what his alignment, can only serve to coerce him. There's no pro-town basis for stating potential scum motivations and

not

also stating that his actions could very likely just be reasonable replacement play, regardless of alignment.

For somebody who clearly knows how to parse words, you should have been careful enough to not say "threaten" in the first place. I make the

insinuation

yes, that destructor's play could be a shield for anti-town tactics, but I am always sure to couch that in the equivalent of "but maybe not", so I am not ignoring that liklihood, nor is Destructor's ordinary replacement play. He has been LML's replacement for over a month now. I have

never

seen a replacement read that took that long, and I challenge you to find me one that has. I stand by my assertion that Destructor's play is probably hurting the town more than it is helping it.

Now, I'm not going to say that my jab at destructor was all a ploy to stir up controversy because that would be a lie, but I will take note of the wagon it has built. Rogueben in particular strikes me as having jumped headfirst, but it seems just as likely that Vollkan is taking an opportunity to push a wagon other than his own. What's my score on the Vollkan scale anyway?

[NabakovNabakov]

I will claim, because I feel the information I hold is becoming more precarious and should probably be shared, but I would still like to note that Gaspar is casting his rolefish net pretty wide here.

I am Robert Graysmith (Jake Gyllenhaal's character in

Zodiac

). As that would imply, I'm hunting the Zodiac Killer and can make one investigation per night. As it is, there is nothing in my role that guarantees that the killer even exists (I'm just on the lookout), so it could just be a red herring, but that would be pretty bastardly. Another possibile explanation for the low kill rate is that the killer is still in the attic (that would explain Nibbler Twins)

N1, I investigated BBMars for what looked like general lurkery, so at least my sanity is confirmed. N2 I investigated Gaspar because he had been on FL pretty hard D1 and was very "told you so" regarding her death D2. I suspected he was SK playing Vig, but he came up innocent. N3 I investigated destructor, again because I felt the primary goal of the SK would be to keep a low profile, and I was growing suspicious of his long read.

So there it is, there's probably an SK, but if there is, it's not Gaspar or Destructor.

Oh, and my secret word is "last"

[NabakovNabakov]

Somebody's going to have to explain this whole Hotel California deal, because there's an awful lot that I still really don't get.

Most of the NK's came from a majority vote of the ghosts. They were like a vig by committee. It was pretty effective because all dead players who came to the hotel were confirmed as town or scum. That seriously cut down on the deception/suspicion factor.

Bah, my role was just asking for the ghost kill. I feel awful that I didn't do anything afterwards though.

GG