California Trilogy - Going to San Francisco (Game Over!)

[MrBuddyLee]

This is dreadful:

[*]MBL, for posting relatively little content when he is posting regulary. Virtually all he has done this game is posting a list of posts he found scummy, without any explanation why.

I've made six other valid points aside from that one post, thank you very much. One of which concerns you, Mr. Stablepants, so I'd think you'd take note.

More distressingly, you don't appear to have digested my post at all, other than the following:

MBL, post #45 was not written by Vollkan. I guess you mean Vollkan #49?

You obviously skimmed my post looking for any bad points I noted about your scumpartners and tracked them down. Otherwise, you would have wondered what was scummy about post #45.

How is it being scumpartners with vollkan, anyhow?

ps. welcome to the big leagues.

vote: Michel Snapplepants

[Mr. Grey]

Vote Count:

8 to lynch.

Machiavellian-Mafia: 3 (NabakovNabakov, PookyTheMagicalBear, Rogueben)
Niv: 3 (BBMars, FaerieLord, vollkan)
Xtoxm: 3 (Machiavellian-Mafia, Niv, SensFan)
FaerieLord: 2 (Gaspar, MichelSableheart)
Gaspar: 1 (Thesp)
MichelSableheart: 1 (MrBuddyLee)
MrBuddyLee: 1 (Xtoxm)

Current Condorcet Winner:

Niv

To view the complete table of pairwise results, put this information in this form.

Important Note:

When compiling Condorcet lists, I am treating unvotes as a complete reset of the list. If you wish to retain the same (or similar) list when unvoting or changing your vote, please post another copy of the list.

[MichelSableheart]

Pooky, if you use a tiered suspicion list anyway, why not use that as your condorcet list also?

BBMars, MBL, Rogueben, vollkan, Xtoxm, why aren't you posting a condorcet list?

I found Rogueben's #236 not convincing enough to be willing to lynch MM. Is there more to that case I'm not aware of?

You obviously skimmed my post looking for any bad points I noted about your scumpartners and tracked them down. Otherwise, you would have wondered what was scummy about post #45.

I tracked down each post to see what it said. That's how I found out that #45 wasn't made by vollkan. However, all other posts mentioned on your suspicious post list were indeed made by whom you said. And without an explanation of why you found said posts scummy, I couldn't do anything with them. If you don't give your opinion, I can neither agree nor disagree with it.

I've made six other valid points aside from that one post, thank you very much. One of which concerns you, Mr. Stablepants, so I'd think you'd take note.

Have you?

People in motion... people in motion...

*barfs out the window*

No game related content.

quick mbl

bus somebody

You first, Gus.

No game related content again.

vote: Rogueben

A random(?) vote could be considered content, but doesn't add much to the discussion.

@Rogueben. That's what I felt too, but no harm done with it up until now, so ok.

Also, since we have gone out of the random vote stage quite quicky,

Unvote

Don't be such a girl. Take that big pink ribbon off your eyes.

No idea what you're trying to say there.

Xtoxm also deserves notice for playing as if lurkers won't get replaced.

Already brought up by MM, vollkan and Niv.

Niv for using the words hell, fnind, please and please in a two sentence paragraph.

vote niv

, Rogueben, faerielord, xtoxm

What has his use of those words to do with his alignement?

(Glork.)

Is there some history between the two of you that I'm missing?

I'll let MBL field this one.

I recently called myself a smarmy prick in another game and Glork didn't pipe up to disagree.

In other news, I will not vote Pooky at any point in this game.

Scummiest posts to date, in order. If any of you actually scroll back to these I will be impressed as hell, otherwise this post is for the internet dustbin.

Xtoxm #28
Xtoxm #44
Faerielord #45
Xtoxm #85
Faerielord #80
Sensfan #94
Rogueben #78
Nabokov #67
Niv #89
Gorrad #27
Xtoxm #26
Xtoxm #93
Volkkan #45 for tl;dr on page 2 what the hell
Faerielord #66 for overreaction to #45
Thesp #57
M-M #60
Gaspar #116

...
Honor roll:
Pooky #195
Primspar #97
Thesp #121

vote: Xtoxm

, Faerielord, Sensfan, Rogueban, Nabokov, NiV, Volkkan, Thesp, M-M, Gaspar, Pooks

Without explanations, the list is virtually useless. Your refusal to vote pooky lacks an explanation too. Best content here: you answering my question to Gaspar.

Holy crap, someone actually did the legwork. Glork++

But Primate is stil scummy. After the whole Mr. Grey fiasco last game, I think maybe we should lynch them separately.

vote: Primate

fake edit: invalidated

post-fake edit: Sensfan, why specifically do you find MichaelStablepants so scummy?

Votes/Unvotes not appearing at the bottom of the post are not counted. Tags removed. - Mod

Again, I don't see what your comments about primspar have to do with anyone's alignement. Your question to Sensfan is asking others for content, not providing content yourself.

I'm intrigued to know whether there is any logic behind MBL's ranking system for scummiest posts.

In general I thought that your list was ordered in a quite strange way. Can you explain how the first three of those posts are the scummiest posts to date? Also what is wrong with #67, #57 and #116?

Also to clarify, does honor roll mean protown (assumption that I made)?

In general, I tossed posts in that list in order of scumminess. I wasn't anal about it.

First three were, in order, a bizarre expression of ambiguity of motive, a fake-sounding expression of ignorance, and an equally fake-sounding reply. I'll check the other three later--headed to lunch.

Honor roll = amusing, I believe. I think Thesp's and Pooks might have carried a little merit as well.

Best post you made, on request of another player.

Dear Mr. NabokovMcNabokov,

Why did you take the time to tell everyone that you didn't like my first attempt at scumhunting this game and then not even list me in your list of possible scum? Looks like posturing to me.

Also, to others: please don't ask us to metagame you early on day one. Unless you are more entertaining to read than Penthouse Forum.

I must admit, your post to NabNab is indeed original content.

M-M,

Nabokovnabokov spent a post negatively addressing my scumhunting style. He then made a list of his votes, and I was not on that list. I subsequently pointed out his error, and he moved me to third on his list. Are you able to get any read off his behavior in that situation? When you view the rest of his posts, does a wider read support the analysis of his narrower behavior?

But this is merely a follow up.

I consider two original points, one of which made on the request of another player, to be not much content for a game that's going on for 1.5 weeks already.

[Gaspar]

However, all other posts mentioned on your suspicious post list were indeed made by whom you said.

...even the mysterious POST OF THE FUTURE?

Also, harping on the first two posts of the PBPA is hardly fair. They were made during the confirmation stage, before play began. The vote for Rogueben was indeed random, as it was one of the first ten posts of the game. I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt this time around and say that you didn't bother to look at the context of any of the posts you've read, but let this serve as your warning: Misrepresenting posts does not make Glorkspar happy.

[Mr. Grey]

Xtoxm has not posted (25 words or more) in 72 hours (excluding Sunday) and has received his first strike.

[vollkan]

Try and get them to explain themselves, and see if they have any reasonable basis (for different philosophies, and/or work out in my head what I think they are doing)

Right. But in the meantime, you shoot them up to 70% for their "atrocious post."

You asked how I deal with irrational, immature, inarticulate or just different players. I figured that you were talking about VI types - ie. a total failure of sensibility. Niv's post was simply scummy, for the reasons I identified. If it turns out he is playing that way due to philosophical differences, that's something to inquire after.

[quote="V"
To eliminate a set of distracting behaviours. Lurking is just a distraction, and hunch votes are weak and townies do make them. Thus, the purpose is to remould the play environment so that scum can take less advantage of distracting plays, and need to expose themselves with reasons.

Do you honestly believe that your opinion of what is optimal play will enable you to eliminate play tendencies/preferences in other players? You're quite the idealist.
[/quote]

You can't make an omelette without breaking eggs. I know my aims are optimistic, but that affords no reason for not trying. Even if I only deter some people, I have a positive impact.

Three words: Because it works.

Incidentally, I'd like you to very briefly skim over and evaluate these two posts, then take a wild guess as to who the two scums were in that game. I would then like you to continue tell me that gut is worthless, anti-town, or whatever you currently think of it.

And, thus, Glork you have shown me something important about yourself. That's useful meta in terms of helping me to read you.

Faerielord, for following the town's general opinion on both Xtoxm and Niv. Especially his reply to the question "do you believe Xtoxm and Niv are scum" struck me as bad. In mafia, you should try to lynch those people you believe are scum, not those that are playing badly, unless there is no other option.

* Faerielord, for following the town's general opinion on both Xtoxm and Niv. Especially his reply to the question "do you believe Xtoxm and Niv are scum" struck me as bad. In mafia, you should try to lynch those people you believe are scum, not those that are playing badly, unless there is no other option.

When did these reasons for suspicions materialise. What post set you off and when?

BBMars, MBL, Rogueben, vollkan, Xtoxm, why aren't you posting a condorcet list?

Is there some advantage to making one?

[Gaspar]

And, thus, Glork you have shown me something important about yourself. That's useful meta in terms of helping me to read you.

I already told you that I value my gut very highly. I just felt like using an illustrative example as to why universally calling the use of "gut" more suspicious is moronic.

[Xtoxm]

Haven't been able to get on for a few days, just posting to let everyone know i'm limited access atm. Don't have time to read back anything right now.

Sorry.

Should be back to normal soon

[MichelSableheart]

...even the mysterious POST OF THE FUTURE?

The mysterious post of the future was on the honour roll, not on the suspicious post list. Besides, you had mentioned it already.

Also, harping on the first two posts of the PBPA is hardly fair. They were made during the confirmation stage, before play began. The vote for Rogueben was indeed random, as it was one of the first ten posts of the game. I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt this time around and say that you didn't bother to look at the context of any of the posts you've read, but let this serve as your warning: Misrepresenting posts does not make Glorkspar happy.

With my PBPA, I was trying to make clear that the total amount contributed by MBL was relatively small, as I argued. My mentioning of the posts you are talking about wasn't to say "Look, he didn't post content in these posts!". It was an attempt at "This are all the posts he made, and this is the content in them". Me mentioning the first couple of posts was mainly for completeness, to make sure I wouldn't get accused of "trying to make it appear MBL posted less then he did".

When did these reasons for suspicions materialise. What post set you off and when?

To be honest, I'm not completely sure. I believe the possibility first struck me quite soon after I made post #211, before I made #213. FL's #214, where he mentioned both were playing scummily when he was asked if he believed them to be scum really set my alarm bells ringing. My suspicions were firmly there when I made #225. That's why I asked Gaspar for his opinion on FL: he had voted him, so I wanted to see if he noticed the same thing I had.

Is there some advantage to making one?

The possibility exists that we won't be able to reach a lynch before deadline hits in 3.5 days. In that case, we will rely on condorcet to reach a decission. If you have not posted a condorcet by then, you are effectively saying you don't care if we get a deadline lynch or not, and you don't care who gets lynched. I highly doubt that's how you feel though.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

Or you guys could just man up, ditch condorcet and reach a bloody lynch?

Seriously guys. Condorcet honestly is so easily manipulated.

[Machiavellian-Mafia]

Nabokovnabokov spent a post negatively addressing my scumhunting style. He then made a list of his votes, and I was not on that list. I subsequently pointed out his error, and he moved me to third on his list. Are you able to get any read off his behavior in that situation? When you view the rest of his posts, does a wider read support the analysis of his narrower behavior?

It would be a relatively minor negative read, especially since NN admitted to the slip. After seeing the rest of his posts, he does use reasoning to add and modify to his list, so that particular incident was an aberration, but I don’t see it to be scummy enough to warrant a high place on my list.

Or you guys could just man up, ditch condorcet and reach a bloody lynch?

Well if you actually provided some real reasoning for your four current lynch candidates, there would be a better chance of a majority lynch. The whole game you have been dodging opportunities to express your own thoughts and reasoning while you fire away questions at everyone else:

Pooky Post 2: Votes MM, no reasoning
Post 3: Game theory
Post 4: Game theory
Post 5: MM, Gaspar, BBmars = antitown, no reasoning
Post 6: List of ratings, no reasoning
Post 7: 1 question
Post 8: 1 question
Post 9: Fluff
Post 10: Fluff
Post 11: List of ratings, no reasoning
Post 12: Fluff
Post 13: List of ratings, no reasoning
Post 14: 1 question
Post 15: 1 question
Post 16: Fluff
Post 17: 1 question
Post 18: 3 questions
Post 19: 7 questions
Post 20: 1 question
Post 21: 5 questions
Post 22: 5 questions
Post 23: 5 questions
Post 24: 1 question
Post 25: Expresses willingness to lynch {Gaspar, MM, BBMars, FL} with no reasoning
Post 26: 3 questions
Post 27: 1 question

The total scoreboard looks like this:
Reasoning: 0
Questions: 36

---

I will have limited access from now thru 4/13. I'm pretty sure there is free wireless internet at the hotel I'm staying at, so I'll be sure to post here ASAP.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

You think I don't have reasons?

[Rogueben]

@MM. Try reading the responses to the questions to get the reasoning. That is what Pooky's playstyle seems to be based around.

The sheer amount of information Pooky has produced in this game due to his questions should make you think twice before accusing him of not having reasoning behind his vote.

On another note. I will not use condorcet unless it is basically impossible to achieve a deadline lynch.

[Niv]

@ pooky, 1 I find you annoying and want you dad. 2 i don't seam to see you as contributing to the game

Pooky: whaty have yo contributed in your oponion to the game

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

Well you know who i suspect, you know who i expect to be town, you know what I want to know from people?

Is my reasoning behind my suspicions/thoughts relevant?

If so, why?

Do you think I am doing this with no reasoning?

What would the purpose of that be?

For you to really believe that I have absolutely no reason and am just shooting my mouth off, I'd have to be such a horrible player that I could feel nothing about the game.

Do you believe that to be true?

Who exactly do you want to kill, the people who are scum or the people who are annoying or the people who are noncontributive to the game?

What are your priorities in this game Niv? do you want to catch scum?

[Mr. Grey]

Deadline:

72 hours from this post.

Vote Count:

8 to lynch.

Machiavellian-Mafia: 3 (NabakovNabakov, PookyTheMagicalBear, Rogueben)
Niv: 3 (BBMars, FaerieLord, vollkan)
Xtoxm: 3 (Machiavellian-Mafia, Niv, SensFan)
FaerieLord: 2 (Gaspar, MichelSableheart)
Gaspar: 1 (Thesp)
MichelSableheart: 1 (MrBuddyLee)
MrBuddyLee: 1 (Xtoxm)

Current Condorcet Winner:

Niv

To view the complete table of pairwise results, put this information in this form.

Important Note:

When compiling Condorcet lists, I am treating unvotes as a complete reset of the list. If you wish to retain the same (or similar) list when unvoting or changing your vote, please post another copy of the list.

[MichelSableheart]

Or you guys could just man up, ditch condorcet and reach a bloody lynch?

Sure. Who, and why? I would like you to explain your reasons behind your suspicions, to see if I can agree with them. In particular, I would like you to explain your suspicion of MM, because his lynch seems most likely. I'm not going to vote him without convincing reasoning, but if your reasoning is convincing, I'll probably switch.

Seriously guys. Condorcet honestly is so easily manipulated.

Say Niv, currently, you are the condorcet lynch. I believe you are town, but have you at the top of my list to guarantee that there will be a lynch at deadline. I'm not sure about MM, and would rather see him lynched then you. If I place MM above you, MM will beat everyone except me. You are listing me above MM. So if you place MM in your list above me, MM will beat me, and with my vote change, would beat everyone. So you place MM above me, I place MM above you, MM gets condorcet lynched. Deal?

[Gaspar]

MM Lynch >>>>> Niv Lynch

Unvote
Vote: MM

, FaerieLord, Thesp, BBMars, Sens, {people}, Xtox, Niv, Michel, Pooky, Vollkan, No Lynch, Gaspar

[Xtoxm]

How have I been scummy? People seem to be making poor excuses to try and get me lycnhed.

There are probably a few scum on my wagon...

Let's see...

• You started the game by incorrectly voting, showing that you likely have not read the rules thoroughly. This makes you a liability to the town, because you can do things without being aware that you're doing them (not voting Gorrad, in this case).

I have read them, and had at the time...I forgot. I'll have to take this one and say I am a liability in that sense.

[*]That vote that you didn't make was on one of the missing players. Because the missing players are not here, and therefore can't defend themselves, this vote as a random vote was much less useful then a random vote for a player who is present.

There was reason for this "random" vote, though.

[*]Next, you make a number of 'funny' remarks which are obviously meant as fake slipups. The only thing these accomplish, besides murking the discussion in a game with two week deadlines, is that they give you an excuse when you make an actual slipup: 'I obviously ment that to be a joke.'.

That was cos of what Gorrad said in signup thread. They don't give me an excuse and I never planned to use them as such.

[*]Then, only 36 hours into the game, you start lurkerhunting. This game has enormously strict activety rules, so anyone who does not post often enough will likely get replaced in no time at all. The only lurkerhunting we are likely to do in this game is hunting active lurkers, and that needs much more evidence then a single post during the random voting stage in the first 36 hours of the game.

I guess we have differing opinions.

[*]Besides the fact that your lurkerhunting was completely useless, it was also completely random. You focus solely on one player, while ignoring other players the behaviour of whom was as bad or worse. And you again don't give your reasons why you focus on that single player.

It was neither random nor useless, imo. You are entitled to your own.

The reason I focused on him was cos he was the one I noticed.

[*]Even though I agree that it is better to reach a normal lynch, your refusal to make use of the condorcet system is still scummy. At deadline, the condorcet system is the only system we have to guarantee a lynch. Your refusal to use it is a refusal to give the town information and a refusal to actually help reach a decission.

I don't understand what it is/how it works. I just vote for the one I want lynched...

[*]Next up, rather then defending yourself from accusations made, or actually trying to start scumhunting, you go all fatalistic, saying you'll be todays lynch without actually trying to do anything to change it.[/list]

Yeh...Possibly did that a lil early...It's when everyone starts voting me so quick I don't like it...

Basically, you have done absolutely nothing to try to help the town thus far, and have instead made us lose valuable time by discussing topics that are unlikely to catch scum. Quite an accomplishment, seeing that we are only playing a week now.

That is an outright falseity - I have tried to help the town. whether or not sucessfully is another question, however that is not what you attacked, you attacked only my intentions in the above quoted post.

[Xtoxm]

Oh, and i'll:

unvote vote MM

[Thesp]

I've got power back, expect a good long post from me tonight.

Also, I notice the deadline is fast approaching - I presume we've narrowed down some candidates and have action going?

[Niv]

Responses in underline italics

Well you know who i suspect, you know who i expect to be town, you know what I want to know from people?

this isn't a question, unless i am misreasing it

Is my reasoning behind my suspicions/thoughts relevant?

A post without logic is not helpful in the least. you can say whatever you want, and never have to back up your oponions with analysis the way you are posting. you are putting effort into formating your questions, why not put effort into scum unting. or explain to me how what you are doing is scum hunting, cause i'm not seeing it.

If so, why?

see above

Do you think I am doing this with no reasoning?

I would hope you have reasoning behind your suspicions, but without your reasoning in the public, i am not sure if you are actually suspicous of these people, or throwing darts

What would the purpose of that be?

Could be a scum tactic at active lurking

For you to really believe that I have absolutely no reason and am just shooting my mouth off, I'd have to be such a horrible player that I could feel nothing about the game.

Do you believe that to be true?

i doubt it, but untill you give me reason to belive better, anyhting is possible

Who exactly do you want to kill, the people who are scum or the people who are annoying or the people who are noncontributive to the game?

the scum. you are anoying and IMO non contributive, therefore making you scum, and if i can kill anoying scum before regular scum, thats icing on the cake.

What are your priorities in this game Niv? do you want to catch scum? yes, my priority is catching scum.

Seriously guys. Condorcet honestly is so easily manipulated.

Say Niv, currently, you are the condorcet lynch. I believe you are town, but have you at the top of my list to guarantee that there will be a lynch at deadline. I'm not sure about MM, and would rather see him lynched then you. If I place MM above you, MM will beat everyone except me. You are listing me above MM. So if you place MM in your list above me, MM will beat me, and with my vote change, would beat everyone. So you place MM above me, I place MM above you, MM gets condorcet lynched. Deal?

And this is why we should be finding a real lynch, 2 weeks is long enugh for that, we shouldn't beresorting to a concordant system that can be manipuated like this. but if it gets the lynch to someone not me, who has a higher likleyhood of being scum than I do, i will gladly use it. still would love a normal lynch.

UnVote,
Vote

Mich-Mafia,

X

, Pooky, FL, {Everyone else}, Niv, No Lynch

[NabakovNabakov]

Both Niv and MSH are looking very duplicitious for their attitudes on Condorcet. MSH seems almost obsessed with ensuring that there is always a Condorcet winner, even to the point that he is willing to crown a player he doesn't even think is scum, but he insists on seeing a more convincing case on MM before he'll place a standard vote. Niv, on the other hand, makes a post about how much he would love a standard lynch followed by a condorcet where

he doesn't even vote his top suspect

.

@MSH: Who would you rather lynch, Niv or MM?

@Niv: Who would you rather lynch, MM or Xtoxm?

I'm not sure how this all reflects on allignment, but it certainly indicates that people really have to get their priorities in order when in comes to votes.

[MrBuddyLee]

I will have time to make a strong post this weekend. In the meantime, here is this weak one for you to chew on.

Michel Scrabblepoints, your current vote is for a terribly weak reason. I would almost feel better about you if it were on me for the reasons you've given. And the reasons you've given for being on me are quite mediocre.

"And without an explanation of why you found said posts scummy, I couldn't do anything with them. If you don't give your opinion, I can neither agree nor disagree with it."

Oh cmon, don't be obstinate. I'm using a famous scum tactic called "leading the witness" on you, trying to get you to cherrypick posts from my list to agree and disagree with. By watching who you selectively avoid and talk about, I can figure a lot out about who your friends are.

Except in this case I have kindler, gentler motives. Won't you please play along?

(Actually, it's too late today for such games. A reread and your scum delivered on a platter, tomorrow, I promise.)

[Niv]

Both Niv and MSH are looking very duplicitious for their attitudes on Condorcet. MSH seems almost obsessed with ensuring that there is always a Condorcet winner, even to the point that he is willing to crown a player he doesn't even think is scum, but he insists on seeing a more convincing case on MM before he'll place a standard vote. Niv, on the other hand, makes a post about how much he would love a standard lynch followed by a condorcet where

he doesn't even vote his top suspect

.

@MSH: Who would you rather lynch, Niv or MM?

@Niv: Who would you rather lynch, MM or Xtoxm?

I'm not sure how this all reflects on allignment, but it certainly indicates that people really have to get their priorities in order when in comes to votes.

XtoXm, but this issue here is that I know that I am town, and since that I was the concordent winner, there needed to be a diffrent concordant winner. and much as we should really have a real lynch, if i need to use the concordant system i will