Newbie 580 - Game Over!

[Radio_Interference]

ZZZZZRrrrrrttt......

...nd today in the news, Brittney Spea....

[CDK]

BridgesAndBaloons wrote:

5) CKD: I don't think i have been super involved in this game, maybe I have. Anyway it seemed like you talked about me more than I would have if I was summarizing the game up till now. You asked for my oppinions about your summary. That's what they were.

[Thought]

You’re response to this was a little bit ludicris in my mind. I will highlight the part I don’t like.

CKD wrote:

Another strange comment. So you feel that your lack of involvement means I shouldn’t comment on you? [. . .]

This sounds like you are purposefully keeping your involvement low.

[Response]

The highlighted sounds like reaching to me on your part. If I read what BaB wrote in the earlier quote, then I read the highlighted I don’t get any indication of that. Maybe that’s just me, but I figured what the hell. May as well comment.

[Questioningly]

I’m not sure what I was supposed to respond to you on that I didn’t already touch on, and short of going back through and reading most the posts in the last few pages I’m just going to go off memory. I might miss something, but I’ll have more time for an actual going through and addressing what specifically seems to pertain to me, rather then just the things that pop out later.

[About JS]

As far as JimSauces posts 41 and post 49 go, I didn’t recall or catch 41 before, and I agree that that could be called an attack. I still don’t agree that 49 is anything more then an explanations simply because of what JimSauce has commented on it, and because Occult actually did get a reply out of the game. I apologize for sounding so pissed/absolute in my earlier comment.

[In conclusion]

This is more for everybody then just for you, but you can probably respond to it to . Yes, BaB has waved the newb flag in this game about to the limit as far as using it as a reason for some of his reactions, but I see at least some of those as warranted. To me it looks like your coming down on him for every single one of them at once, when I feel that it’s pretty obvious with his posting style and the mistakes he’s made that he is, actually, a newb. I’m not asking for a reason as for why you feel every single little thing he did should be used for a case of overwaving the newby flag as much as I’m looking for you to answer whether or not you think that he is, infact a newb, and

some

things

could

be a result of that.

[Amor]

[Yay!]

Good to see you’re breaking the mold you had been setting. I think I have to apologize to you too, as I never explicitly stated that the posts I pointed out weren’t every single one of your posts. I implied it once or twice vaguely, and just kinda assumed people would get it. Of course as I’ve already stated, I wasn’t exactly going to rip your head of with the case anyway .

[Intrested]

I think its funny that you chose to go after BaB for breaking your mold, but kind of a haha funny more then anything else. I do believe that you did it in response/defense rather then being scum and realizing you’re screwed if you continue, mostly because parts of your post still haven’t changed, as you still kinda like to throw things out there and say whether there possible or not later. That’s a good thing though, and I think that a better word then tone neutrality for it is speculation. Speculation adds more depth to posts, as long as there’s a post besides a short speculation.

[Request]

I would like you to answer the same question I’m asking CDK to answer in my last paragraph to him, although you have hinted at what your response will be strongly already. I feel that your vote kind of means youre hitting BaB for every one of his missteps though, albeit that since it’s the first vote on him it more puts weight on your words then actually puts BaB in lynch territory.

[BaB]

[Introduction]

First off, yeah. I think with patterns quite often in life about most things. If you’ve ever seen the movie A Beautiful Mind it is kind of like that, although I’m certainly not talented enough to pick out random super small details that aren’t actually there. I also don’t think in math terms, and tend to see patterns more in social development then in specified pattern hunting things such as crossword puzzles, although I am relatively good at those.

[Question]

Did you have any thought that Amor might not be 100% town before I made my case? I’m still not entirely sure why you would have pushed for it unless you had an earlier “subconscious” thought about Amor.

[Thoughts]

Yes, you’re going to be forced to repeat your answer on anything you say many, many times on these boards in any game. Inconsistencies are generally looked at as scumtells. For as much ridicule as you’re getting for using the word newb so many times, you really aren’t getting it as hard as someone who had made no indication this was there first game would be. I don’t like how the general feel of each of your posts changes, that point I will give to people such as CDK and Amor, but while going through your posts I get the general sense that you are gaining experience. That gives some clout to what you said earlier being a mistake more then sucky mafia playing.

[+Reasoning]

I’m also unwilling to vote you right now because if you are mafia, then I think you’re just going to keep making mistakes and lead us right to your partner. Although that’s a pretty grim thought for you to hear regardless of your alignment, I haven’t heard enough to think that you are mafia at the moment.

[retrospective]

I

think

any question or response you were looking for was answered in my thoughts towards Amor, but I guess I can say a few more words on it. As you already said, Amor no longer being tone-neutral and going after you wasn’t and won’t be an uncommon response to a case, regardless of how weak. I do think that Amor had you in mind already for a case, as he did go through and bother to comment on the beginning posts. Either that or maybe he was retaliating.

[General Stuff]

I’m going to bet you’re going to have to deal with the posts of yours you’ve already had to comment on a few times at least once or twice more before the game ends, so I may as well mention that I think the correct term for them would be tunnel-vision posts. You saw Occult as scum, and you were pulling apart Occults posts as though he was 100% scum, with no room for him being town inside your mind. Although late in the game tunnel-vision has its place, early in the game I’d say it looks, and gets much the same reaction you’re getting now. Especially when combined with only an elementary understanding of the game.

Will someone please explain how what I a did is inconsistent rather than improvement.

[Response]

Considering you're first posts ,as you admitted, didn't have as much logic behind them as they needed to make the attacks they were making I dont know why theres so much diffrent between inconsistancy and improvement. You're posts changed between then and now, they have gotten better between then and now. I think that the real question comes down to whether or not people are going to accept you're explination of not knowing the game.

[To Everyone]

Thats all I have right now. I'm sure I miscommented on something, or missed something, or did something else I'm going to have to post on tomorrow. Please, point it out and ask questions if you have them

[P.S]

And I'm done with my post, at 11:57PM. Almostmade a liar of myself with my promise to post today .

*Transmission out*

Official Vote Count

JimSauce - 1 (backinblack167)

Occult - 2 (cerebus3, WeyounsLastClone)

BridgesAndBaloons - 1 (Amor)

Not Voting - 5 (BridgesAndBaloons, curiouskarmadog, JimSauce, Occult, Radio_Interference)

5 to Lynch

[curiouskarmadog]

RI, I didnt understand what BAB said, that is why I said "what" and "strange comment" and "this sounds like". I wanted him to clarify. what is reaching about wanting him to clarify?

Yes, sometimes people do wave a newbie flag to cover up for mafia mistakes. Let me answer you question with a question, RI. Does it matter if he really is a newbie? Should being a newbie be used as a defense? Being a newbie doesnt mean he is town, it means he is new. he could be new town or new scum. I am not attacking him (yet?) for this, I am just making a note of it. For I can see a newbie town making some of the same comments. The jury is still out on BAB right now...I am leaning town, but that might change.

Cerb, thanks for joining.

[WeyounsLastClone]

Okay, I've been through the thread and here are the things that struck me:

backinblack167
don’t really like his statements in post 86. Not that it’s scummy, but it was a different opinion than I had at that moment.

curiouskarmadog* (replaces Boggzie)
Don’t like the meta’ing discussion of Boggzie with jimsauce (around post 63) very much. I don’t really know what to make of it. Boggzie comes across a bit bitter and harsh, and then steps out of the game after Occult’s post, which wasn’t an insult, but just a post to provoke thought and discussion . This stepping out seems a bit like getting out of the heat.

First post of ckd is a bit chaotic, but I like it, as it is my way of posting as well, when I’ve done a reread (like this post  ).

What Boggzie did to make him look suspicious, ckd posts almost takeaway that suspicion. Seems eager to get the game forward, and asks good questions.

Occult
I still don’t like his agreement with the deadline. Sure we were posting little (and I’m sorry I still do), but that’s not a reason to ask for a deadline on page 2 (see, I even got the page number right this time).
His defense against BaB’s accusations is coherent and seems genuine.
(Why does he take over *transmission out* from RI)

Amor (replaces Phael Cordivis)
Post 60:

This is also why I'm cautious about things like lynch-2. If I hadn't taken my vote off Occult, and BAB had quickly voted the way he did, the mafia could have hammered him. (This is assuming that the mafia weren't voting already and Occult is town.)

This comes across to me as a remark to prove that he’s town, seems a bit constructed.

Anyway, his behavior of statement/maybe statement to which RI points at is a null-tell to me, because he can just be town who’s not sure, or mafia trying to take cover.

Post 125 he says ‘and sadly wasn't able to glean a lot from it’. Then comes with a ‘thorough’ case on BaB and votes him. For some reason I think this Amor/BaB interaction is a bit of a charade. Also because BaB asks ‘I would also like to hear RI's analysis on the recent exchange between Amor and I.’ Followed up by ‘However, this evidence is still not enough for a vote. Unlike Amor, I am (now) both being careful and still helping the town.

P.S. Amor: I wasn't attacking you after RI's post. I now am suspicious of you, after your "out of place post." IGMEOY’

cerebus3 (replaces preatorian)
Need more input to really say something here. I’d like to know if he feels his vote for Occult is still in the right place.

Radio_Interference
Seems strange, but I can’t really find anything really suspicious of him. At first I thought his playstyle was to confuse town, but getting used to it, it’s an interesting and clear playstyle which helps us quite a bit.
The connection-theory is quite interesting. It’d be cool if RI could post some more on the connections in this game and what they mean to him. Do you differentiate between ‘to’ and ‘from’ connection?

JimSauce (replaces Xpom Telo)

Him defending Boggzie in post 102 feels awkward to me.
Unvoting RI, after BaB lists ‘not unvoting a random vote’ as one of her scumtells, could be just bad timing, or could it be more?

BridgesAndBaloons (replaces ZaneWasHere)
Starts with

Hi, I'm replacing ZaneWasHere
It's my first game. Woohoo!

Now to business,
I think we need to go ahead and lynch someone, it works in favor for us. (or at least thats what the general idea tends to be).

and then a vote.
Quite bold for a first post in your first game! Says some things that contradict to me this is his first game. While it’s not inherently scummy to lie about this, it still gives me the wrong vibes.

Refers to IC status to keep someone in the game. For some reason I have IC-status, but I’m still not sure how to start discussion, what’s the best way to get the scum trapped etc.

Then the ‘big assumption’ in post 89. The idea that if someone is at L-2 the mafia could finish his or her lynch right away. It could be ‘newbness’, but if feels a bit strange because BaB seems to think things through, and look thing up, so I got a bit scummy vibes from this post. Also convenient that this scenario doesn’t lead to BaB in any way.

In all posts after BaB comes across at some moment eager, at some moments experienced, at some moment playing the newbie card, if that doesn't work playing the stupidity card. It still doesn't really sit well with me.

As for figuring out a scumpair: at on point I thought Boggzie and jimsauce, but ckd has taken away that suspicion. At this moment I'm leaning towards BaB with either Amor or ceberus (of whom I'll need some more posts to get a better idea)

[WeyounsLastClone]

Sorry for the bad lay-out, copy pasted it from my word-file, and forgot to apply bold-tags and such.

[BridgesAndBaloons]

I have three (maybe) big posts to make. The first one, this one, is a defense, another one is some evidence I've been gathering that I'll share (maybe not too big of a post), and the third one is reaction to recent posts/an idea of who is scum.

RI says I'm going to have to explain myself 1 or 2 times, so I'm going to try to change it to 0 or 1 more time with this post.

I'm going to minimize the amount of new writing in this post, I'm going to quote myself to show that I have been more consistent that you may think.

Chronological order:

1) In the beginning (my first post) I voted for Occult because I had a GUT FEELING, because I wanted to start with a BANG, and because I wanted a REACTION. I simplified my "gut feeling" as being random, because I couldn't explain. Things we canot explain are referred to as random.
I also was playing as how other people I'd read played, meaning NOT THINKING ON MY OWN

2)Then, when "Jim Sauce asked me to explain" I searched to see if there were any deeper reasons for my gut feeling that Occult was mafia. At this point I employed much TUNNEL VISION (bad move), and also I didn't understand the random voting part of the game (another bad move). (this is simplified as MISUNDERSTANDING) These two combined to make me cite Occult's random votes as unhelpful, and thus scummy, while ignoring other people's random votes. Ouch.

3) Then, later in the game, I revealed my initial gut feeling against Occult, and I also realized what the random voting stage was about, and how utterly ridiculous my argument against Occult was. [these are

REALIZATIONS

Before I only kind of realized how ridiculous it is

(that first realization belongs with number 1)
At this point I now play as myself.

Post 57:

When JimSauce asked me to explain, I decided to see if there was any grounding behind the vote. I looked at your posts and picked them apart and wrote what seemed skummy.

[...]

My vote wasn't random in the fact that you seemed to be actively involved in this thread and

I knew you would reply somehow.

(reaction)

It also wasn't random in the way that I was following my gut feeling, but (like I wrote in post 145) If I mentioned following my subconscious, people would not value my ideas as much.

These are my responses (post 88) to backinblack explaining my reasoning:
(I skipped what he said for brevity sake.)

I had a really scummy feeling about Occult in the beginning

subtly mentioning my gut feeling, but still not wanting to all out say it.

My "random" vote was against him because I thought I could learn more, which I did.

REACTION

I wanted to phrase the post so that he seemed as scummy as possible.

TUNNEL VISSION

[...]

I decided to back off of Occult, because I didn't have enough evidence yet. I feel that I need to make up for my bad post earlier.

Also, to clarify, this is what I did:

1) I saw that Occult was a little scummy

GUT FEELING

2) I wanted to start with action,

BANG

3) I random voted Occult[ random because i didn't understand it=

GUT FEELING

]
4) Someone ( i forget who) asked me to defend my choice. I didn't really have reasons, but I wanted to start with action, so I pick apart his posts for

a very biased and weak post

TUNNEL VISION

5) He shows me (and I realize) how terrible my post was,
6) I back off because

I realize I don't have enough evidence

MISUNDERSTANDING

Now post 126:

You misunderstand. All separate "three" reasons have been me unsuccesfully trying to explain my one reason. I've phrased it differently to make people understand, so I guess I'll have to phrase a fourth way!?

[...]

that at the time of my first and second post, I thought all the random voting was for real.

MISUNDERSTANDING

In addition, I wanted a response from someone, and Occult was being fairly active, so after me

1) misunderstanding the joking part of the game (and the L-2 thing)

MISUNDERSTANDING

2) being completely convinced by things other people said and not thinking on my own

NOT THINKING ON MY OWN

3) wanting a response (wanting to generate discussion)

REACTION

I voted for Occult. Only the third reason is ok, the other two are horrible and I have since improved my game.

REALIZATIONS

[...]

I had no

good

reasoning behind my vote, and I now decided to see if my vote had "grounding" behind it.

So I "picked" "apart" Occult's quotes to see if he was "scummy."

TUNNEL VISION

Of course i did all this picking apart with the incorrect assumption that the initial part of the game was completely serious.

MISUNDERSTANDING

[...]

These "three separate reasons" have been actually one. I've been unsuccesfully trying to relate them.

Post 145 in response to Amor

Bab, myself, says this: Think what you want. I read a section of a game right before (i didn't pay attention to the random voting part) where a no-lynch was discussed, and

I kind of ass-u-med that the same went on in every game. Mistake.

NOT THINKING ON MY OWN

[. . .]

[concerning not noticing all the other random votes-not noticing them is part of a

MISUNDERSTANDING

]
The truth is, I wasn't really paying attention to anyone other than Occult.

TUNNEL VISION

I've re-read the entire game several times, since, and now I kind of understand random voting.

REALIZATIONS

[. . .]

I voted for him [Occult] initially for a couple reasons: (which I have discussed over and over again in other posts. I guess I have to try to re-phrase is even a fifth time...)
Basically (and over simplified):

I made the vote because of the deadline thing.

NOT THINKING ON MY OWN

I didn't know what bandwagonning or L-2 or any of that stuff meant at the moment.
Then when I was questioned on why I voted, I decided to see if there were extra reasons* I could find. So yadda yadda I ended up with a lame argument which we don't need to restate here.

I looked for "all the support [that i ] could" for anything that was scummy

not

to make it look better

TUNNEL VISION

,

but to see if there was an even deeper (*subconscious) reason behind

GUT FEELING

I'm only mentioning it [misunderstanding random voting] now, because I just very recently noticed how the random voting section of the game works!

How could I mention it before when I didn't realize I misunderstood it!?

Analogy: A four year old doesn't mention that he was wrong when he said the world was flat until he learns that the world isn't.

REALIZATIONS

[. . .]

I didn't understand too much exactly why I wanted to vote for him. I know I did [want to vote for Occult] but not exactly why. (again, you might call it your gut, i call it my subconscious*)

GUT FEELING

I thought on it and discovered some basic reasons, but I didn't understand completely why I wanted to. Thus, it was a little random. (Random is only used to describe things you don't understand the meaning behind imo. There is no random process that humans can replicate. Dices have physics that rule how they land, random counters on computers are based on time, ect.)

Later on, when I was questioned,

I looked for more reasons why my gut may have been leaning towards Occult.

TUNNEL VISION

/

GUT FEELING

That's what my second post is.

[...]

* Read "Impro" if you're curious.

I hope you now understand that the vote was because I initially had a GUT FEELING, I was NOT THINKING ON MY OWN, and I wanted to start with a BANG. I'm not doing this anymore, so it's not really inconsitancy as it is gaining experience and knowlege.
When I was asked to explain my vote, I had severe TUNNEL VISION and I had several MISUNDERSTANDINGS. I simplified all of these reasons so far later as newbness, that was a mistake. I shouldn't have simplified it.

The truth is I made several mistakes in the beginning (capitalized). [broken record]I didn't understand a lot of things, I have learned alot.[/broken record] I think that it's easy to label this as inconsistency and vote for me, but that would be simplifying it, just like I did. At least explain that it's my improvements that are the reason you voted for me, Amor.

Although my play-style may have been fluxuating, hopefully you see that my reasons haven't been inconsistent.

1/3 posts done. Whew.

[BridgesAndBaloons]

Here we go. This post isn't going to be as long as I thought.
I went back through the thread, and I made notes of every vote and FOS.
Hopefully this can help people figure out who the scum pairs are, other information, et cetera.

First I underline the person's name, then I write all of their actions with (post number) afterwards. I also write in "parentheses" a key-word that reminds me of what the post was about. Don't take those key words as accurate summaries, please re-read the posts yourself and let me know what you think of them.

Notes: If I mention name/name2 that means that name2 replaced name. For instance, ZaneWasHere random voted for preatorian/Cerb means that Zane random voted for preatorian, who was later replaced by Cerb.

More notes: Pretty much everything up until post 66 is considered a random vote. If there is a reason behind these early votes I didn't see (that's beyond OMGUS) please let me know.

First off, the people who were replaced:

ZaneWasHere

: Random votes for preatorian/Cerb. (15) Boring game.

Preatorian

: Random votes for Occult (11) He gets an FOS from Occult (24)

Phael Cordivis

: Random votes for Occult (8) What an exciting game for him

Xpom Telo

: Does not make a random vote!? (14) But later he random? (I'm not sure if it was random) votes for RI (29)

Boggzie

:Random votes WLC (19) Makes A possible over-reaction to Jim’s FOS (61) Unvotes WLC “because it was random” (63) Votes Occult “whiplash” (69)

The people who are currently in the game (again let me know if I missed anything):

backinblack

: Random votes for Xpom/JS (notes: still hasn't unvoted) (4)

CKD

: Unvotes Occult (101)

Amor

:Unvotes Occult “L-2” FOS on WLC “aggressive” (40). Votes Bab “inconsistency” (125)

Cerb

: Nothing yet.

RI

: Random votes for Black (7) Unvotes (28)

WLC

: Random votes for RI (10) Votes Occult “deadline” (35) He got an FOS from Amor (40)

JS

: FOS Occult “deadline” (41) FOS boggzie/CKD “lurking” (52). Unvotes RI “forgot about the vote” (115)

Bab

: Votes Occult “gut feeling/random” (53). Unvotes Occult (57). Recieved a vote from Amor (125) and an FOS from Occult (129)

Occult

:Random votes for Zane/Bab (6) Random votes RI (17) Unvotes and FOS praetorian/Cerb (24). Votes WLC “LAL” (36) Unvotes (56). Vote Bog/CKD “scummy as hell” (66) FOS BaB (129) Occult got a vote from WLC (35) and and FOS from JS (41)

Hopefully this will help us out. I guys I'll try to update this after a substantial amount of FOS, votes, or unvotes.

I also want to take the oppurtunity to do two things:
It has been five days since Black posted something.

PROD ON backinblack167

He keeps on leaving for a while and posting very useless things.

Vote backinblack167.

Hopefully that'll get him to respond.

[JimSauce]

At cerb's request, here's my thoughts on this game (sorry for breaking your 3-post chain, BaB. ):

backinblack197

Not many posts. I'd like thoughts on all players when you return.

curiouskarmadog

(replaces Boggzie)

I didn't know pointing out someone's joke vote as OMGUS was attacking it, but thanks for clarifying... I got negative vibes from Boggzie during his short stay. Attacks me with a huge post because I mentioned he was posting in other games, says he wasn't lurking despite a six-day absence, and he uses silly and sometimes intimidating reasons to defend himself. (Also calls my FoS "shit"...Lol.) CKD has restored much of his predecessor's actions with insightful and discussion-provoking posts.

Occult

Deadline approval (I'm not pushing this, just mentioning...) and I don't like his "vote, no explanation" play. I admit it gets reactions from people better than "rehearsed triple-checked BS" but it can easily lead to heated arguments that work to smokescreen the mafia. Boggzie's reaction also demonstrates a blatant consequence of this play-style. Some comments against Boggzie were unneeded, even if used for a reaction.

Amor

(replaces Phael Cordivis)

I was a bit peeved at a few argument ressurections. I saw #125 as an attempt to really push forward discussion; of course it's not necesarily scummy, but it came soon after players pointed out his flagrant post-style. Also because his case revolved around the first post of a newbie three pages ago.

cerebus3

(replaces preatorian)

Not much to say here. His first post is evenly spread on all players relative to their content and notable actions.

Radio_Interference

Not much to say here, either. Posts are frequent and pro-town for the most part.

WeyounsLastClone

Nothing has stuck out to me except for his rather aggresive L-2 vote on Occult. He calls BaB's second and third posts "well argued and pro-townie", but since then he's expressed negative vibes on BaB.

Unvoting RI, after BaB lists ‘not unvoting a random vote’ as one of her scumtells, could be just bad timing, or could it be more?

Oh, please. It was the only vote on him at the time, and he wasn't under any fire. Also, I unvoted because CKD asked why I hadn't removed the random vote, not because of BaB's list. This accusation is kind of silly.

This stepping out seems a bit like getting out of the heat.

Not really. The discussion with me was over and Occult's anti-town vote didn't apply much heat. More like annoyance...

BridgesAndBaloons

(replaces ZaneWasHere)

Repeatedly uses the newbie excuse, but I believe it's justified in this argument, as most "inconsistencies" originated from his growing level of understanding and several attempts to explain a point.

I disagree that backinblack has been posting very useless things. Sure, he's only made six posts, but two of them defended Boggzie against your (IMO) unjustified claim and one gave his opinion on the main focus of the game. I fail to see how those are very useless.

In order of least to most suspicious;

RI
CKD
Cerb
WLC
Occult
BiB
BaB
Amor

[curiouskarmadog]

in the future, can we not list who we think is town. I realize your list was "least to most suspicious", but still it implies who you think is the most town...if everyone did this, I am sure one or two people would pop out as town on everyone's list, thus providing scum with a target Night 1....

I am however fine with top 2 or 3 scum lists (at this point in the game)...

this is a personal preference that I have developed playing the game...like to hear other IC's thoughts on this.

[BridgesAndBaloons]

OK. So I looked over my previous post (155), and I realized it probably isn't going to be very helpful at this point in time. I spent a lot of time on it, so if anyone would like to use it as evidence for something, I'd be delighted!

Here is my response to recent posts:
CKD: I feel that you have been focusing alot on my comment about your outline of the game. I agree that saying that it sounds like I am "purposefully keeping your involvement low" is a huge stretch and a flagrant lie. +1 scummy points.
Amor: I hope you countinue to adopt your new way of posting. It's much more helpful for the town.
RI: I'm not 100%

anyone

here is town. (including you) Yeah, I was a little weary of Amor subconsciously. I know not to trust my gut instincts entirely. It's kind of another layor to consider when I consider who is mafia. The point is I didn't really think he was scummy until his sudden change in posting style. That made me think before he was trying to fit in. His response made me more sure, and not your post. Anyway, I later re-read all of Amor's posts and he seemed less scummy than I thought.
I also have to disagree with your reasoning. If you think someone is mafia, they have to be lynched. Lynching a mafia Day one dramatically increases our odds.
WLC: Nothing much to say to your post. I read it with interest, but for some reason I can't think of anything I should say. Odd feeling. Maybe later.
Oh wait there's this:

BaB [. . .] lists ‘not unvoting a random vote’ as one of

her

scumtells

. Quite an assumption there. What makes you think I'm a girl?
JS:

most "inconsistencies" originated from his growing level of understanding and several attempts to explain a point.

Bingo!
Question. Do you believe that inconsistencies are scum tells, and do you think what I am doing/did is a form of those scummish inconsistencies? (explanation for question will come your answer)
I'm also going to have to agree with CKD. Making a complete list is detrimental to the town for several reasons. I found a thread somewhere that argued this, and I'll link it if I find it again.

This post was going to be a long post against Backinblack, but he might be replaced, so I decided I didn't want to bother until I knew he was coming back.

[BridgesAndBaloons]

I found it. That was quick: http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=7889

Oh and cerb, I see you browsing the Road to Rome forum. I hope you post something.

[curiouskarmadog]

Here is my response to recent posts:
CKD: I feel that you have been focusing alot on my comment about your outline of the game. I agree that saying that it sounds like I am "purposefully keeping your involvement low" is a huge stretch and a flagrant lie. +1 scummy points.

lol, did I say "you are purposefully keeping your involvement low" or did I say you comment "SOUNDS like you are purposefully keeping your involvement low"? One would be a direct statement the other is an opinion...do you really want to push the lie angle?

[curiouskarmadog]

also BAB did you read my post 151?..

[cerebus3]

Ok, cerb. Sorry about the typo

No problem. It happens a lot.

Cerb: You are taking over for someone who has been extremely inactive. Maybe he simply didn't visit this website, but it's definitely possible that he was lurking. I want to figure out which reason it was.

To cut to the chase, I strongly request that you post your page-by-page summary of the game.

I think my presence is a pretty good indicator that preatorian flaked.

I think a page-by-page summary would be pretty over the top. I have stated what I feel about the players based on my read through, and I didn't see any insights that might be worth mentioning. I will do one if enough people want me to though.

cerebus3 (replaces preatorian)
Need more input to really say something here. I’d like to know if he feels his vote for Occult is still in the right place.

Eh, I didn't realize that I was voting. I will

UNVOTE

now. Occult hasn't done anything to make me think scum yet. Sure he is brash, but that isn't the same thing.

By the way, is it cool if I call you WLC or something? It is kind of hard to spell your name.

curiouskarmadog (replaces Boggzie)

I didn't know pointing out someone's joke vote as OMGUS was attacking it, but thanks for clarifying... I got negative vibes from Boggzie during his short stay. Attacks me with a huge post because I mentioned he was posting in other games, says he wasn't lurking despite a six-day absence, and he uses silly and sometimes intimidating reasons to defend himself. (Also calls my FoS "shit"...Lol.) CKD has restored much of his predecessor's actions with insightful and discussion-provoking posts.

This is interesting. How does that jive with this?

I hugely disagree that Boggzie hasn't done anything pro-town.

First of all, his defense (though I don't agree with it) revolved around me meta-ing him to find something for conviction, which is in the scum's best interest. That contributes to scum-hunting. Also, how can you say accusing Occult isn't trying to figure out who the mafia are? Occult's vote was extremely anti-town; Boggzie pointed this out (or at least implied it) with an OMGUS vote. Once again, I missed where this doesn't slightly scum-hunting.

I also don't get how defending isn't helpful for the town. For one thing, he's providing information. He's also countering an accusation made against him, which, if he is town, will help repel his lynch. Simple logic tells us that a town-player staying alive is beneficial to the town.

I do agree that Boggzie was overreacting a bit.

Oh and cerb, I see you browsing the Road to Rome forum. I hope you post something.

I hope you don't do this every time you enter the forums. I will often look at the thread and not post anything. I will say something when I want to, not before

[BridgesAndBaloons]

Woh I'm sorry. Must have missed your post, probably because it was wedged between two larger ones.

I can't find what your original post was (did it get deleted?) but for the like fifth time, I thought that wrote more about me than I would have. Maybe I've been more involved in this game than I thought. I have a habit of under-estimating myself.

CKD this is the third time I'm asking. I want you to put what you consider 3 scum tells to be.

[Radio_Interference]

Krrzzzt....

...nd today, a male is in the news for becoming pre....

BaB wrote:

RI: I'm not 100% anyone here is town. (including you) Yeah, I was a little weary of Amor subconsciously. I know not to trust my gut instincts entirely. It's kind of another layor to consider when I consider who is mafia. The point is I didn't really think he was scummy until his sudden change in posting style. That made me think before he was trying to fit in. His response made me more sure, and not your post. Anyway, I later re-read all of Amor's posts and he seemed less scummy than I thought.

I also have to disagree with your reasoning. If you think someone is mafia, they have to be lynched. Lynching a mafia Day one dramatically increases our odds.

[Query]

Where exactly did I imply that no lynch was a good idea?

*Transmission out*

[Radio_Interference]

EBWOP:

[CDK]

Sorry, forgot about you completly. In a normal game I would agree with the newbie defense being overused idea, but since this is a newbie game, I'm not going to hold it against someone unless I have some reason to do otherwise. And nothing wrong with clarifying, I just felt the need to comment on it.

[JimSauce]

I never gave much thought to listing pro-town players. In all of my games here it has never been brought up, but I agree

Question. Do you believe that inconsistencies are scum tells,

Yes. (It depends on the situation, of course. If a player makes huge unexplained leaps on the opinion of another player, I'd consider that scummy.)

and do you think what I am doing/did is a form of those scummish inconsistencies?

No.

@Cerb: Boggzie has done both scummy and townny(?) things. The first quote pointed out the scummy, the second defended Boggzie against BaB's claim that he hasn't done anything pro-town in the game. Of course Boggzie has made pro-town actions, but that doesn't mean I think he's town.

[Amor]

Since cerebus asked for it and we seem to be doing it, here are my thoughts on each player.

backinblack167 - Hard to get a read on since he hasn't posted much. He's lapsed into lurking territory over the past couple of days.

BridgesAndBaloons - I've made my opinion on him pretty clear. The way he explained things in his last post makes sense, but I'm not convinced that all of his inconsistencies are due to bad communication and newbieness. I'm happy with my vote where it is right now.

Also, what's with voting BiB for lurking when you'd previously criticized me for being quick to vote?

cerebus3 - Not a lot to go on so far.

curiouskarmadog - Boggzie seemed suspicious, but his leaving the game makes me think it was more of legitimite freaking out. So far CKD has seemed pretty pro-town.

JimSauce - Seems to avoid taking a stance on things a lot. Other than that he hasn't been scummy.

Occult - Has been very agressive, and votes frequently without much explanation. I'm not sure how much stock I put in meta arguments, so he's one of my top suspects.

radio_interference: I thought he might use the posting style as a crutch, but I've been pleasantly surprised by how informative and useful his posts are. Like most others, I think he's probably town.

WeyounsLastClone: I found him putting Occult at L-2 so early a bit suspicious. Hasn't done a lot since then.

[Request]

I would like you to answer the same question I’m asking CDK to answer in my last paragraph to him, although you have hinted at what your response will be strongly already. I feel that your vote kind of means youre hitting BaB for every one of his missteps though, albeit that since it’s the first vote on him it more puts weight on your words then actually puts BaB in lynch territory.

Yeah, the vote was more to apply pressure than anything. I don't find the newb defense very convincing because it doesn't account for some things. As CKD pointed out being a newbie doesn't prove his innocence, he could just as easily be newbie mafia showing his hand early as newbie town being overzealous.

BAB, I think your most recent explanation makes sense, but I don't like the number of explanations it took to get to it. Also, I'm not fond of using gut instincts either (this would also apply to Occult.)

I think that's all that I need to respond to today... there was a lot posted though, I might take a second look at it later.

[curiouskarmadog]

Woh I'm sorry. Must have missed your post, probably because it was wedged between two larger ones.

I can't find what your original post was (did it get deleted?) but for the like fifth time, I thought that wrote more about me than I would have. Maybe I've been more involved in this game than I thought. I have a habit of under-estimating myself.

CKD this is the third time I'm asking. I want you to put what you consider 3 scum tells to be.

What is with the comment "like the fifth time"...I am not asking you about it again...you called me a liar, and I was defending myself. It really is beginning to feel like you are trying to spin anything i say or do into something scummy, why is that?

EVERYTHING CAN BE A SCUM TELL IN CONTEXT AND GIVEN A PLAYER. One trait that might not be a scum tell for one, could be for another....

Examples:

Lurking...
Pushing bad logic or assumptions as facts...
actions not matching words...

[cerebus3]

@Cerb: Boggzie has done both scummy and townny(?) things. The first quote pointed out the scummy, the second defended Boggzie against BaB's claim that he hasn't done anything pro-town in the game. Of course Boggzie has made pro-town actions, but that doesn't mean I think he's town.

But you are calling the same action both scummy and pro-town at the same time. You said his defenses were silly and meant to intimidate, yet you had earlier said that they seemed to be legitimate attempts at scum hunting and providing information. Which is it? Do you think his defense was good or not?

[BridgesAndBaloons]

Cerb:

Oh and cerb, I see you browsing the Road to Rome forum. I hope you post something.

I hope you don't do this every time you enter the forums. I will often look at the thread and not post anything. I will say something when I want to, not before

Point taken. I only did this because I was awaiting a response from you (at this point I thought you might write the summary.) I did this one other time when I was also waiting for a post.

Speaking of the summary, I asked you because I think it would extremely benefit the town if you did. It would be helpful to see fresh eyes on the thread, it would be really helpful to have another summary, and it would be great to get some lengthy posts from you considering we have very little to go on about the person you are replacing.
I'm going to maintain that it will be extremely beneficial for town for you to write a summary, but if you think not, well, I guess you won't do it.


RI:

quote="BAB"

I also have to disagree with your reasoning. If you think someone is mafia, they have to be lynched. Lynching a mafia Day one dramatically increases our odds.

[Query]

Where exactly did I imply that no lynch was a good idea?

*Transmission out*

[/quote]
Nowhere. You're misunderstanding my post. I said that lynching a

mafia

(granted I should have italicized it for clarity) is helpful. So if you think I'm mafia, which you don't, you should vote for me. I think waiting around for one person you know is mafia to accidentally reveal the other person is too risky for town. If you find out who is mafia, lynch 'em.

Amor:

Also, what's with voting BiB for lurking when you'd previously criticized me for being quick to vote?

[. . .]
Also, I'm not fond of using gut instincts either (this would also apply to Occult.)

I don't intend to use gut instincts as reasons for voting again, but I do take them into account.

Three reasons for my vote against bib
1) I actually have quite a case against him; however, none of the case is typed out (it's all mental notes), and there is a great chance that Bib will be replaced.
2) I also have zero tolerance for the game bib is playing. He has been ridiculously inactive, and mafia or not, he is not helping this game.
3) I want to get his attention. If he is indeed lurking, this is the way to do it. But in case he wasn't lurking, I make sure I added a prod as well.

yes my vote was a little quick, but it's the only way I can get his attention. My vote isn't to lynch him, it's to get his attention. If someone else votes for him I'll take my vote off.


CKD: You are the scummiest person in this game right now. Not only do you contradict yourself, but you refused to answer my question. I've picked up major scum waves from you througout this game.
scumminess doesn't inherently mean mafia.
Evidence to come later (I think two days. busy tomorrow), I got to go to sleep.
In the mean time,

FOS CKD

P.S. This post feels very different to me. I think I'm finally figuring out a playing style I like.

[BridgesAndBaloons]

EBWOP:
CKD did answer my question, but in a very vague way. Still comes off as scummy to me.

[WeyounsLastClone]

Oh wait there's this:

BaB [. . .] lists ‘not unvoting a random vote’ as one of

her

scumtells

. Quite an assumption there. What makes you think I'm a girl?

Sorry, for some reason the abbreviation BaB constantly has me think you're a girl. But I noticed the gender-icon is male, and I tried to adjust my post accordingly, but this one slipped through! Sorry again.

And abbreviating WLC will do fine! It's understandable you don't want to type WeyounsLastClone the whole time.

As for lists from 'town to scum', I've never really thought of it as an guide for scum. I'd figure scum can quite easily identify who is most townie, because everyone is going to make such comments on pretty much anyone during the game. But I guess it might be better to be save than sorry, so lists of the top 3 or 4 people you find scummy could do as well.
But if there's a doctor role in town, you could use the reverse argumentation, then it'd be good to know who to prevent.

[JimSauce]

But you are calling the same action both scummy and pro-town at the same time. You said his defenses were silly and meant to intimidate, yet you had earlier said that they seemed to be legitimate attempts at scum hunting and providing information. Which is it? Do you think his defense was good or not?

His methods of defending and scum-hunting were scummy, but he was still defending and scum-hutning (which, IMO, are pro-town actions).

1) I actually have quite a case against him; however, none of the case is typed out (it's all mental notes), and there is a great chance that Bib will be replaced.

What kind of case could you have from six posts? All I've seen him do is lurk.

CKD: You are the scummiest person in this game right now. Not only do you contradict yourself, but you refused to answer my question. I've picked up major scum waves from you througout this game.
scumminess doesn't inherently mean mafia.
Evidence to come later (I think two days. busy tomorrow), I got to go to sleep.
In the mean time, FOS CKD

I'm bursting to scream

OMGUS!!!

, but I'll read through his posts again to make sure.

[curiouskarmadog]

How was my answer vague? I was VERY specific with my examples MORE SO than you even. And you havent really answered my last question...you continually misread (or completely miss) posts...at first I thought maybe you are excitable, but now I am wondering again. The more I ask you questions or wonder why, the more you try to OMGUS and try to spin a case against me. you are trying to take everything I say and spin it scum..problem is you are really NOT READING my post and have to backtrack a lot.

I assume your "evidence" is a case. Look forward to reading it. I have not contradicted myself once