Mini 572 - Packrats (game over)

[Elmo]

Oooh. Hi Yos.

Skruffs is still my main suspect for trying to make facts about who must be scum without a real basis

Examples?

Capri still strikes me as silly townie. As far am I'm concerned, the self-voting near deadline is neutral at

worst

; I could quite reasonably interpret it as a towntell. Um. It's mostly gut, to be perfectly honest; the things I remember are his Andycyca vote and his comment on me (buddying up proviso notwithstanding) that felt genuine.

It's more of a I'm confident of my calls that it might actually be beneficial to lynch me to prove I am town kind of thing.

Assume you're 100% confirmed town, right now. Now what? As far as I can see, no-one's going to be following your calls, right now.

Oddly enough, if Capri expects to get lynched today or tommorow, I could see Capritown deciding that lynching himself is better for the town then a no-lynch, and I can't imagine capriscum ever deciding that lynching himself is better then a no lynch. Unless he's capriscum pulling a WIFOM thingy here.

SOMEONE SEES THE LIGHT!

Capri, are you bored in this game? Why are you still self-voting?
Eldarad, hasdgfas, Skruffs, I'd like ze case on Capri as justification for your votes from each of you.
Snitch, Andy: this is not the time to not be voting. WHO DO YOU PEOPLE WANT DEAD?

Mizzy: Mislynch is pretty much always better than no lynch, as long as we actually get some info out of it.

[Skruffs]

My justification is that if someone isn't lynched, we don't get information.
Capricious was at three, the person I was voting was at three. I changed to Capricious to put him at 4.

That is my justification: I am trying to get a day one lynch when we have to fight every 24 hours to be able to do that and some people are blithely stalling or trying to entail a nolynch.

I *may* have just said this in my last post, not sure.


Yos: If something looks bad, I should be questioned on it. You are a smart man, you can figure things out. I understand you just replaced in but something about your "Well shucks howdy folks" strikes me as an act. I don't really like it.

[Ether]

5 Capricious (eldarad, hasdgfas, Capricious, Skruffs, Y)
1 Andycyca (Elmo)
1 Rotten Snitch (Yosarian2)
1 Skruffs (Mizzy)
1 Y (Zindaras)

2 Unvote (Andycyca, Rotten Snitch)

11 alive; 6 to lynch.

0/6 -

no one

23 hours and 7 minutes until the block ends.

[Skruffs]

Ding Dong!
Five more people need to post, or one mroe needs to vote Capricious.

[Rotten Snitch]

Hey, sorry. I was sent down south on business. Will be home late tomorrow and hope to post by Thursday. Didn't want deadline before then so I'll make this a quickie.

@ Elmo - This is the second time you have pressured me to vote. I don't know why my vote is so important to you right this minute. Right now I do not have a good feeling and no one seems town.

@ Skruffles - Why so anxious to get to night 2 buddy?

[Mizzy]

Capri still strikes me as silly townie.

I am starting to feel that way too, honestly.

Since the reading and research and opinions I've seen agree that mislynch (if there is info to be gained) is better than no-lynch (and we

really

don't want a no-lynch) I would vote Capri if I absolutely had to...but I would not do it thinking he's scum at this time.

[Skruffs]

Man you are on late!

I am anxious to CORRECTLY END day One, NOT get to night 2. Night 2 is inevitable, and we are playing with a loaded gun by drawing day 1 out. We either get a STRONG wagon on someone other than Capricious, FAST, (because scum would rather not post and let day go to night with a no-lynch then let themselves be quicklynched) OR we lynch Capricious and have SOME info OR we do nothing and let the big ? wait until tomorrow.

Which is most favorable in your eyes?

[hasdgfas]

Eldarad, hasdgfas, Skruffs, I'd like ze case on Capri as justification for your votes from each of you.

No offense Elmo, but are you reading the game? I posted my case on Capri when Mizzy asked for it a page or two ago.

[Elmo]

Yeah, I want more detail and/or responses. It's like:
1) he tries to say as little as possible while seeming to contribute - I don't get how this is particularly true of him, although I kinda see where you're coming from
2) his comment on my comment - He's explained this, far as I can see
3) self-vote - I have

no idea

how this is supposed to be a scumtell
4) saying we should lynch Andy without any reasoning - he said "I voted for Andycyca for being scum attacking easy target Rotten Snitch town." which seems fine to me.
5) the "feel" thing - this seems fine to me as well. Why's it supposed to be scummy?
6) something about his logic being scumlogic - This is too vague to mean anything, give an example or something.

So yea. Moar.

[Mizzy]

I would strongly, strongly prefer that we don't lynch Capri unless we absolutely need to and I would love the hell out of it if Capri would, you know, unvote himself? I don't think he has yet.

I'm about to be out of town for a bit (woot for an all-expenses-paid trip for a job interview) and will be only able to post a little bit. I will be posting, though!

[Skruffs]

^- Translation "hope for nolynch"

[Mizzy]

Skruffs, your attempt at looking witty and contributive are worse than Capri's sometimes.

[Y]

Skruffs is still my main suspect for trying to make facts about who must be scum without a real basis

Examples?

Anyone who's NOT voting and DOESN'T post in the next fourteen hours is scum trying to push a nolynch.

Just considering things here:
If there is a scum group of some sort, and only one (as compared to an individual or multiple smaller partners) then there are probably 3 of those scum.

^- Translation "hope for nolynch"

Although she wrote the exact same thing in other games.

Are those enough?

[Yosarian2]

Yos: If something looks bad, I should be questioned on it. You are a smart man, you can figure things out. I understand you just replaced in but something about your "Well shucks howdy folks" strikes me as an act. I don't really like it.

"well shucks howdy folks"?

You do look bad, at several points in the game, and I think I already pointed them out. Especally, your attacks on Zinderas makes no sense at all. It seems like it's all "I'm going to be suspicious of Zinderas because I saw him as scum once and he kinda scared me". If there's more to your case on Zindy then that, I'm not seeing it.

The only thing that's in your favor at this point is that I have a meta on you that you're often irratiaonlly agressive and paranoid for bad reasons, especally towards players you precieve as good. It's not a helpful or a pro-town way for you to act, but it is a way I've seen you act while town before, so I'm not counting it as strongly against you as I would against most people.

[Capricious]

Unvote

Mizzy continues to solidify her awesome pro-townness. Her play doesn't make any sense as scum. What she could've done was went with the flow and lynched me. She would have seen how I had already grouped her in as town in my earlier, going away post, so it was wholly good for her, as scum, to lynch the confused town who had labeled her as town. Instead, she sat down and analyzed the situation, to make the best play as town.

[Capricious]

It's page 3.

I don't think anyone has any basis to think anyone is scum yet.

unvote, Vote: Mizzy

You can definitely find reasons for early votes. You can't just throw early pages out the window because "it's the random voting stage." If someone doesn't find something out of it, it will never turn into anything useful.

No pro-town presence in this post. Had hascow only pointed out that he believes early pages are useful, it would be a null tell. But he didn't, he used this as an explanation for his vote. I see no reason to change votes to Mizzy just based on this. You can't honestly believe that if Mizzy were scum, she will throw her hands up and surrender on this issue, one that is a debatable one.

It seemed to me like you were saying "Let's not worry about the early pages" when you said:

Damn, we went from fun little random votes to "I think such and such is scum and here's why." What the hell?

It's page 3.

I don't think anyone has any basis to think anyone is scum yet.

That seems to me to be saying that the early pages don't matter because it's hard to find scum during them. While that may be true, I feel that it's important to get out of the "random voting stage" as early as possible. Saying that it's page 3 and we have no basis to think anyone is scum is, to me, like saying that those pages don't matter very much and we shouldn't pay attention to them. So any misrepresentation of you was simply because that's how I viewed your post.

1st part: antagonizes Mizzy, tries to get town to feel that Mizzy is careless and scummy

2nd part: patches relationship up "simple misunderstanding"

unvote

Capricious, if you want to discuss it, then discuss it. And you definitely can't meta yourself based on that one game. I'm

this

close to voting you right now. I need to see some excellent contribution in order to keep from voting you.

Establishes that hascow is voting based on contribution, not who he feels is scum.

Ah, but if I had voted you would be calling me scummy for putting a fourth vote on you for little reason. If you had less than 3 votes on you currently, it would have been a vote, but putting you at L-2 at this point is a bit harsh

Again:

1st part: antagonizes Cap, tries to make town believe that he erred

2nd part: patches relations up

this is false, contrary to popular opinion,

I do not believe

L-2 and L-1 votes are scummy just because they are L-2 and L-1. The scummiest votes,

I believe

are the keystone votes, the votes that propel the wagon to a point of no return. This may be even the 2nd or 3rd vote, or it may be a later vote.

The key here is that you believe that. My feeling is that a wagon shouldn't get to L-2 unless someone is really scummy. You simply believing that the 2nd or 3rd vote is scummier doesn't mean that it's correct.

I didn't vote for you previously because:
a) It would have been L-2
b) I didn't have a good, solid reason to get you to that point

I think that an L-2 vote should have good reasoning behind it, just because of how close it gets someone to a lynch.

theory discussion, null.

Seriously, I don't see where Capri connects you, and the divergence of opinions between Capri and Y looks like distancing as much as the Capri/Cow pair.

Since disagreeing/arguing always is distancing

Honesty shines through in this post. Of course, he wasn't distancing himself from me, and he feels righteous to point this out.

POst tomorrow.

I hate it when people do this.

FoS: Zindaras

Purpose for this?

Caprcious's posts 192-195 are a load of crap. You can't seriously pass that off as the best contribution you can muster, in addition to 194 being full of Craplogic(TM). I'm very confident in you being scum, because if you were town, I feel you would have found other things to comment on besides just what you did. There has been lots of discussion since your previous posts, and

that

is what you comment on?

vote: Capricious

Can someone point me to the case against Andycyca? Because I really don't see it.

Easy way to buddy up

"feel" is the best and only basis there is.

what are you talking about?

.

hasdgfas

: I can certainly see why you'd think that he can contribute more than he is/has, but can I ask why that makes you feel okay with lynching him? Seems like a bit of a cop-out lynch. Granted, any lynch is better than no-lynch, but I would seriously prefer going for a lynch and not a mis-lynch. Do you feel Capricious is scum? If not, why are you willing to lynch someone you don't think is scum?

I'm okay with lynching him because from his posts, what I've gathered is that he tries to say as little as possible while seeming to contribute. Let me pull out some examples:

Sir Tornado is in this game?

I am confident RS and Mizzy are town

Skruffs is also solid town

hi

Then there are a bunch of posts that are, to me, full of crap:

Elmo is a good town for defending someone (me) for their vague comment:
"feel is the best and only basis there is" in spite of some lumped together turtles.

Someone is

town

for defending someone else's vague/strange comment?

Unvote, Vote: Capricious

need a lynch, but come to your senses and lynch Andycyca day 2

A self-vote in addition to saying we should lynch Andy day 2, but he doesn't give any reasoning.

"feel", what more is there?

"feel" is the best and only basis there is.

This just makes no sense at all. Sounds like a scum cop-out to giving reasons to me.



So basically: Yes, I feel he's scum. He's been pushing an andycyca lynch without explaining why andy is scum. (A relatively common scum tactic from what I've seen, argument through repetition). Many of his posts have been extremely contentless when he could easily have contributed more in many of his posts. When he does contribute, his logic seems more like scumlogic than townlogic.

vote: Capricious

Yes someone is town for defending another town's vague comment. At the time, it would be putting themselves in the spotlight to be a lawyer to another play, particular when a number of players had already expressed disdain and confusion toward the comment. He was risking having to explain himself for it. Scum prefer to avoid.

Incidentally, hascow's examples of my contributions are nice, I have named several players who I feel are solid town, a bad scum play without me even being prompted to do so. I will argue that the eight words "I am confident RS and Mizzy are town" hold more contribution in them than half of this game.

[Capricious]

Vote:hasdgfas

[Zindaras]

Capri, why am I suddenly on your scumlist?

Still needs answering.

Also, Yossy, I don't think I'm A-List Celeb. I haven't won any Scummies, so I'm not the cream of the crop.

I do not think Skruffs is scum based on his attack on me. I personally see it as a null tell/slight town tell. I find Y scummy for attacking him over it (I felt it was a very opportunistic attack), and I'm somewhat disturbed by Mizzy's vote as well, but I need to re-analyze the game again.

But I believe I've said that before. Should've, at the very least.

Yossy, what do you think of the meta-ing that Sir T did on me at the start of the game?

[Capricious]

Zindaras has done nothing except dispute with Skruffs about meaningless things, and also this post:

So, I kind of think hasdfgas is reaching a bit in 63. I don't think Mizzy's post there says that the early pages are completely useless. Kinda agree with her 67. Andycyca basically repeats hasdfgas in 69. Rotten Snitch's 71 is somewhat odd. I like hasdfgas's 76. I like Mizzy's 78 less. I don't think there is any reason to speculate about things like that at this point, or any point soon, for that matter. Behaviour is still Reason #1 for a lynch. I think both Skruffs's and Sir T's reasons for attacking me are far-fetched to say the least. Capricious's entire play in the first few pages is based purely on going back through old games and pointing out instances were something would or would not be a good decision...ignoring whether or not they are applicable to the current situation. He seems to abandon the approach in 103. Not sure if I like the explanation, currently I'm buying it.

Ah, but if I had voted you would be calling me scummy for putting a fourth vote on you for little reason. If you had less than 3 votes on you currently, it would have been a vote, but putting you at L-2 at this point is a bit harsh

this is false, contrary to popular opinion, I do not believe L-2 and L-1 votes are scummy just because they are L-2 and L-1. The scummiest votes, I believe are the keystone votes, the votes that propel the wagon to a point of no return. This may be even the 2nd or 3rd vote, or it may be a later vote.

I actually find this somewhat amusing. Tells are invariably based on popular opinion. I believe jeep posted some theory about how docs and Mafia behaved, purely mathematically. And he was right. Tells are beautiful. But when they get out, they're out, and they don't work anymore. From a pure perspective, however, I would make an exception for some tells, most importantly tells that have to do with voting, simply because the Mafia need to get what they want (dead town) and they have to vote for it. This is especially true in situations where the lynch is close.

But I digress. I love theory too much.

I think the Y-Capricious exchange in 111-117 is odd. In this case, it seems like Y is overanalyzing (though Capricious is doing some silly speculation, in my opinion).

Andycyca's 123 is odd, as pointed out before. Easy talk about distancing. Skruffs's 130 is flat-out worthless. Speculating on why someone was killed is useless. We can't infer anything from it at this point. Rotten Snitch's 135 is actually an example of pure WIFOM. Don't see those often.

I remember Patrick and Ether saying they had promised scum roles to SEVERAL people before roles were actually sent out. I do not think if they were actually legitimately promising roles, they would have said so out loud, but SINCE the topic of the chat at that time WAS about Ether's game, the theme of which would only be noted as that of "werewolves", I think that it is VERY likely that someone may have overheard it, thought nothing of it, and then remembered during Night 0 when they said "Hmm...' and used it as a reason, for the sole point of creating a situation.

I'm not actually trying to make a situation of it myself, I am merely putting this information out there so that it can be acknowledged and discarded.

Why put worthless info in the thread?

Blech, tired, need to skim now.

Y's 162 is odd. "Why is Capricious forgotten?"

Well, why don't you put him in the spotlights? You're not even voting him.

I also really friggin' love the fact that Skruffs basically says I'm scum because I'm always scum and insinuating that he shouldn't be held accountable if I turn up town, because he's trained to kill me.

Yeah, right.

Sir T obviously fails to acknowledge my personality, don't know if it's scum stubbornness or simply town paranoia. Elmo is giving me "cruise"-vibes. He's basically cruising through the game without really saying anything.

I'm going to

Unvote

for now and think more about this tomorrow, where I will hopefully be less tired.

I get from reading this that some people are odd, some people are wrong, Skruffs dumb, some people are right, some people are worthless, Skruffs wrong, some people are useless, Skruffs idiot, et cetera. It seems to me that Zindaras is not hunting scum, rather picking out the finer, minor mistakes in semantics and aggressiveness.

[Capricious]

Ohwait, another day? Man. I thought the one at the top of the page was right.

I irrationally kinda like Capri's move here in 262. I think it's indicative of him being town. I'm also not sure about Andy, and I don't think Skruffs is a good lynch right now. So I'm going with Andy.

Vote: Andycyca

Mod, I would like a little deadline extension, though. Kinda difficult to coordinate here.

This is one of the reasons I took a step back on Andycyca.

[Capricious]

voting for a self-voter, eh elmo? How often do you find them to be scum?

Interesting how he is voting for a self-voter, what could possibly have caused the shift in opinion?

[hasdgfas]

It's page 3.

I don't think anyone has any basis to think anyone is scum yet.

unvote, Vote: Mizzy

You can definitely find reasons for early votes. You can't just throw early pages out the window because "it's the random voting stage." If someone doesn't find something out of it, it will never turn into anything useful.

No pro-town presence in this post. Had hascow only pointed out that he believes early pages are useful, it would be a null tell. But he didn't, he used this as an explanation for his vote. I see no reason to change votes to Mizzy just based on this. You can't honestly believe that if Mizzy were scum, she will throw her hands up and surrender on this issue, one that is a debatable one.

I always find it anti-town when someone says that the early pages aren't a basis for finding scum because that's a totally false statement. It's a perfectly legitimate reason for voting for someone. I find it scummy when someone says that. You may disagree, but I'm not budging on that issue.

It seemed to me like you were saying "Let's not worry about the early pages" when you said:

Damn, we went from fun little random votes to "I think such and such is scum and here's why." What the hell?

It's page 3.

I don't think anyone has any basis to think anyone is scum yet.

That seems to me to be saying that the early pages don't matter because it's hard to find scum during them. While that may be true, I feel that it's important to get out of the "random voting stage" as early as possible. Saying that it's page 3 and we have no basis to think anyone is scum is, to me, like saying that those pages don't matter very much and we shouldn't pay attention to them. So any misrepresentation of you was simply because that's how I viewed your post.

1st part: antagonizes Mizzy, tries to get town to feel that Mizzy is careless and scummy

2nd part: patches relationship up "simple misunderstanding"

Hello Mr. Misrepresentation! I'm not antagonizing Mizzy, I'm talking to her about what I saw in her post. In case you didn't notice, she said something to me about it previously and how she didn't understand where I was coming from. I'm clarifying. Antagonizing?

Seriously?

unvote

Capricious, if you want to discuss it, then discuss it. And you definitely can't meta yourself based on that one game. I'm

this

close to voting you right now. I need to see some excellent contribution in order to keep from voting you.

Establishes that hascow is voting based on contribution, not who he feels is scum.

Strawman. Classic case. I never said this vote was based on contribution. Saying you're going to discuss something, then not discussing it is scummy, that's the reason that I said it the way I did. If you truly had something you were going to discuss, your following contribution would be excellent, which is why I was giving you the benefit of the doubt right now. I've seen people say that and come back with excellent contribution. I've also seen people say that and come back with total crap. If you're going to say that and not discuss it at that time, you need to come back with something good or it's scummy.

Ah, but if I had voted you would be calling me scummy for putting a fourth vote on you for little reason. If you had less than 3 votes on you currently, it would have been a vote, but putting you at L-2 at this point is a bit harsh

Again:

1st part: antagonizes Cap, tries to make town believe that he erred

2nd part: patches relations up

Again, antagonizing? Seriously? According to this, anytime people disagree, it's antagonizing the other person.

Seriously, I don't see where Capri connects you, and the divergence of opinions between Capri and Y looks like distancing as much as the Capri/Cow pair.

Since disagreeing/arguing always is distancing

Honesty shines through in this post. Of course, he wasn't distancing himself from me, and he feels righteous to point this out.

I really hate it when people call it "distancing" every time that two people disagree and get into a discussion/argument in-thread. It's not always distancing, it can sometimes be a townie arguing with a townie or a townie arguing with a scum. Yes, sometimes it can be scum arguing with scum, but your basis behind calling it distancing shouldn't be just an argument.

POst tomorrow.

I hate it when people do this.

FoS: Zindaras

Purpose for this?

People who make posts like that are actively lurking. They make it look like they're contributing by saying that they'll contribute soon, but often, the other players just forget about it and let them continue refusing to contribute. While it's done by both scum and town, my feeling is: If you make a post in-thread, it should have some game discussion in it. I'm not a perfect example of this, but I try.

Caprcious's posts 192-195 are a load of crap. You can't seriously pass that off as the best contribution you can muster, in addition to 194 being full of Craplogic(TM). I'm very confident in you being scum, because if you were town, I feel you would have found other things to comment on besides just what you did. There has been lots of discussion since your previous posts, and

that

is what you comment on?

vote: Capricious

Can someone point me to the case against Andycyca? Because I really don't see it.

Easy way to buddy up

I haven't seen a case on him. How exactly is that buddying up? Other players have said that as well.

Yes someone is town for defending another town's vague comment. At the time, it would be putting themselves in the spotlight to be a lawyer to another play, particular when a number of players had already expressed disdain and confusion toward the comment. He was risking having to explain himself for it. Scum prefer to avoid.

False blanket statement. Scum often defend a player's vague comment so that player can have a warm, fuzzy feeling about the scum later. I believe it's called "buddying up." Something you happened to accuse me of doing, as a matter of fact. Why are you exempt from it but when I do something that can barely be called buddying up at all, you use it as a case against me?

Incidentally, hascow's examples of my contributions are nice, I have named several players who I feel are solid town, a bad scum play without me even being prompted to do so.

Naming several players who are solid town is a bad scum play? I disagree, it's good scum play, because it can often get townies to post who they think are the most town, leading to an easier NK for the scum. It's bad town play for the same reason.

I will argue that the eight words "I am confident RS and Mizzy are town" hold more contribution in them than half of this game.

But when you have no reasoning behind it, that's simply not the case at all. It can barely even be considered contribution because you're not providing background. I can say "I'm confident [insert name here] is scum" like I did a few posts ago about you. However, Mizzy wanted more of a case with actual reasons. You need reasons for it to actually be useful. In fact, saying that in that way is something that scum would be more likely to do because they know who is town, and could say it while being correct.

PPE:

voting for a self-voter, eh elmo? How often do you find them to be scum?

Interesting how he is voting for a self-voter, what could possibly have caused the shift in opinion?

Thanks for strawmanning again, Capricious. I'm not voting you because you're self-voting. I have other reasons behind it. Elmo didn't appear to have any so I called him out on it.

[Mizzy]

I always find it anti-town when someone says that the early pages aren't a basis for finding scum because that's a totally false statement. It's a perfectly legitimate reason for voting for someone. I find it scummy when someone says that. You may disagree, but I'm not budging on that issue.

Except that I didn't say that the early pages aren't basis for scumhunting; I said I didn't think that anyone could say

for sure

who is scum and who isn't on page 3.

I do agree with your sentiment, hasdgfas, that cases (either for someone being town OR scum) need good reasons and that's why I keep asking for them when I don't see them.

[hasdgfas]

I always find it anti-town when someone says that the early pages aren't a basis for finding scum because that's a totally false statement. It's a perfectly legitimate reason for voting for someone. I find it scummy when someone says that. You may disagree, but I'm not budging on that issue.

Except that I didn't say that the early pages aren't basis for scumhunting; I said I didn't think that anyone could say

for sure

who is scum and who isn't on page 3.

Right, which is what I was responding to in the post Capricious quoted, but he seemed to think I was antagonizing you. I totally understand where you're coming from now.

[Mizzy]

Right, which is what I was responding to in the post Capricious quoted, but he seemed to think I was antagonizing you. I totally understand where you're coming from now.

Oh, okay, sorry! I just wanted to make sure.