Mini #564 - Mafia in Crubtown - Game Over

[thevampireofdusseldorf]

Can I have the last word...........seeing as I am the thing in question.
What I see QF has picked up on is worth thinking about.
If I was scum I would have two choices in defence
1. Say it was an accident
2. Defend myself on a concious hammer vote
Likewise I have the same two choices as town
Now this is 4 different possible approaches to this; technically only two but with different motivations behind each.
Given I only have used one defence
not knowing it to be hammer, now motivations behind this (others feel free to comment on this as I can not do this objectivly)
as scum: I guess a WIFOM thing with no way to disprove this
as town: Well honesty I guess would be the biggest thing again hard to prove but this would work not in favour of town
And also it might pay to look at motivations for using/or not the alternative defence (again as above comment if you wish)
as scum: more effort needed to go into a defence on the concious hammer grounds but not that much more as mozs play would help. possibility of a more convincing defence.
as town: given if this was not the case it would be a lot harder to sustain this defence especialy when under pressure. possibility of a more convincing defence.

This is so strange I am the only one going deeply into this issue, in as much an open and objective way I can. This is not another defence post as I have already done that to death. More it is trying to give others some ways of looking at things to come to a reasonable feeling about the issue using logic and reason.

[vikingfan]

Zeddicus worries me...he posted so much day one and hardly anything today. Very out of character, and his play day one eliminates any type of restriction. If I don't hear from him soon, I'm moving my vote there.

unvote

Talitha suggested that she would be posting more this weekend...if we haven't heard something substantial from her by Monday, my suspicions will be growing.

I'm leaning toward believing VOD at the moment, at least based on his reasoning on the hammer vote.

[Crub]

Sixth Vote Count of Day 2

darkdude (2):

Cephrir, Pink Puppy

zeddicus (2):

thevampireofdusseldorf, darkdude

Not Voting (6):

QuantumFruit, Talitha, windkirby, vikingfan, Akonas, zeddicus

With 10 alive it takes 6 to lynch.

[Talitha]

I was going to apologise again for my quality contributions being few and far between but I get a little annoyed at people who obviously have all the time in the world to devote to their games expecting that others should be able to contribute as much as they do. Anyhow... I am home for the next coupla days... yay.

I'm starting to get why Cephrir & QF are saying that keeping on discussing the VOD hammer on Mozz is a waste of time. VoD, I can't understand why you want to discuss it so deeply, all the different permutations for "if I was scum" or "if I was town". We can go over all the possibilities until we're blue in the face, but I think we'll only know for sure after the game is over.

Let's see if we can generate more interesting topics: VoD - What made you decide not to vote for Pink Puppy anymore?

Darkdude:

By your logic (and those of a few others) I should have the following vote restrictions?

1. Cannot vote for a player when someone else already has voted for them
2. Cannot FOS without voting
3. If the above two rules are pointed out, I cannot change my mind
4. Breaking any of the above is deemed scummy
5. The only "safe" vote is when against a player who is found to be most likely scum by the town already

Isn't that a bit much?

Gosh, you remind me of people who just enjoy whining. The "rules" are as listed by the mod. You can do whatever else you like and I'm SURE you know this. If other people doubt the motives of your actions they will say so and that is what the game with mafia in it is all about - best get used to it!
You seem overly-concerned with yourself and how you are perceived. Are you actually interested in trying to lynch scum?

Cephrir continues to rub me the wrong way, by saying that pressuring a player is useless and retarded.

I see, especially when the guys are pressuring me....

The player we were talking about pressuring or not pressuring was obviously VoD. You seem overly worried about being pressured... do you have an explanation for why that is, DD?

[Talitha]

Vikingfan - why would you move your vote to Zeddicus. Can you please give me your step-by-step reasoning as to why his lack of posting this game day make him more likely to be scum?

[Talitha]

VoD & Darkdude,
Please also answer above question re: Zeddicus, seeing as you are both voting for him.

[thevampireofdusseldorf]

Talitha well that isn't exactly what I had hoped for but at least it is something, I have already outlined my thoughts on zed day one and today If you fail to find them I am not going to provide them just for you.
{quote="Talitha"]We can go over all the possibilities until we're blue in the face, but I think we'll only know for sure after the game is over.[/quote]
I'm just trying to provide people with as much information so they can judge my actions for them selves, saying you can only know after the game or after a lynch is lazy play something you acused zed of. Start thinking behind these things you can not know as this is what this game is about.

Roar.

[vikingfan]

Vikingfan - why would you move your vote to Zeddicus. Can you please give me your step-by-step reasoning as to why his lack of posting this game day make him more likely to be scum?

I didn't move my vote- I simply unvoted.

[QuantumFruit]

@VoD: Geez! Don't be so hard on Talitha. The roar was excessive. Didn't she say she had three kids? And work? And Easter's coming up?

@Talitha: If you don't mind, I won't do post numbers (because I just looked at all of VoD's posts separately from other people's). So yes, here you go...

ok thanks zeddicus............[

Insertion by QF: zeddicus gave a scum-rating of darkdude on a scale of 1 to 10

]
wow 7 is rather high for this early, I will agree that darkdude has drawn suspicion to himself but I'm of the more conservative opinion that darkdude is newb town....
zeddicus wrote:
You pushed a wagon without adding your vote to it. Major FoS: darkdude I need two votes

(given you said you need two votes and did vote later) isnt this doing the same thing darkdude was originally deemed suspicious for......throwing suspicion on a wagon but not voting?

and re mozsuggs
zeddicus wrote:
eager for night?

unvote, vote:mozsuggs


zeddicus wrote:
we need to lynch darkdude now.

again you seem guilty of your own accusations against others.

You have cast four votes already two going with what was popular at the time (mozsuggs & darkdude).
The second vote against winkkirby you went with for awhile rather strongly but seemed to change tracks onto darkdude (who also became suspicious of windkirby)when the windkiby suspicion train lost its momentum and the darkdude one picked up speed.

To me this voting behaviour shows eagerness to get to a lynch more akin to scum play than what I would expect from town....add to this the pointed out hypocrisy
vote:zeddicus

Well it has occured to me that scum can play this put town power role tells in their post if they are setting them selves up for a possible claim, I see that as more likely that a town power role putting them in, also yes talithas lack of decent sized posts does bother me but some of us do have busy lives so I 'm not saying this is suspicious yet.....but if it is an ongoing thing then is very noteworthy, and zeddicus has also been very quiet this game just went back and noted the most activity he has done was on the day moz was lynched......

Yeah I get your point I wont push it too far but as I'm new I just wishing to expand my knowledge, but if this is bad for town then I will do it elsewhere.
Also vote:zeddicus as a surprise for when he gets back.

Now back to zeddicus:
I already made a case against him day one post 164, but this was never comented on. I think this still stands as zed joined the moz wagon and on day two his listed suspicions were also with the two popularist movements (wagons) at that time. Also he added his suspicion to both but didn't vote. Again something he used aginst darkdude day one.

[Talitha]

Vikingfan - You threatenend to move your vote to Zeddicus if you don't hear from him soon, I want to know your reasoning for this.


Thanks QF


VoD - I don't think the condescension is necessary. I have never been terribly interested in your hammer, it is a null tell as far as I'm concerned. You want me to spend my obviously limited mafia time considering it further? No offence, but I'll decide for myself what I think is worth spending braincells on.
As it stands you appear to be leading a bandwagon on someone who is not here to defend himself and that seems a dubious option, and much more interesting to me than your hammer.

I also asked what happened that you suddenly switched from Pink Puppy, who you clearly indicated that you think is scum (#316 & #319) without any acknowledgement of it, and not even a stated unvote.

[thevampireofdusseldorf]

Re post 319:
This still stands and I dont like how PP convicted me of being scum, also part of the reason to vote her was to test how strong her conviction of my scuminess was, (was it that strong she would stick to it to the point of apearing scummy herself and/or ignore all other people). From then on her horizons broadened and she said things that made me less suspicious of her. Mod said unvoting was optional so I saw no need to do it.

If someone chooses to be away with out notifying or is forced away from a game I shouldn't just ignore them till they come back if I find them scummy, and looking back over day one and the moz votes I found it a worthy case to put forward.
I doubt he will be lynched while not here and all points are outlined for him to answer when he comes back. Given this also helps people widen there sights to more than just me and dd.

Ok I know you have a busy life at present and three little monsters (kids) must take a lot of time and energy to handle, sorry I seemed harsh but isn't mafia a game where as town you don't know and have to look at actions post votes and find reasons motivations behind these things. I find it kinda wierd I seemed to be the only one doing this about my action. Maybe I have got this wrong but relying on the scum tell bible seems like playing the game paint by numbers with only one colour, black.

[Cephrir]

@Whoever said anything to this effect: Lurking is a really lame scumtell. If you want to vote someone to make them post, okay. Lurking =/= suspicious, though.

Apparently I am still voting for darkdude.

Unvote

.

[darkdude]

Gosh, you remind me of people who just enjoy whining.

Yeah I guess I am whining. I'm kind of pissed that Quantum Fruit made a pointless statement regarding my vote. Because she could have complained about any of the "rules" I listed above.

The player we were talking about pressuring or not pressuring was obviously VoD. You seem overly worried about being pressured... do you have an explanation for why that is, DD?

That quote you took out was out of context. I meant that back then when lots of people had votes on me some players said stuff along the lines of "he's gonna crack under pressure!!! scum!!". This would be inconsistent if someone else was pressured and failed to properly defend/freaked out, yet no one sees it as suspicious.

That said, I did not like the pressure when people voted for me for the aforementioned reasons. Losing another member could have been really bad for town, so I put defending myself into priority. Perhaps it was a mistake as some pointed out, but that was what I did.

VoD & Darkdude,
Please also answer above question re: Zeddicus, seeing as you are both voting for him.

Wait...what is the explanation for this? Triple post and lots of rephrasing? It was obvious that you were asking me a question, so I do not see the need for this. Seems really weird behavior to me. Perhaps I will be considered doing a OMGUS for this, but I think following your absence and consequent peculiar timing of posts (most of the time immediately after someone points out inactivity) deserves my questioning.

[Talitha]

OK let's clear up one thing. There is a difference between lurking and being absent or busy. Sometimes it is

hard

to tell the difference in this text based forum, but they are still different. Lurking is when someone is hanging around a lot but not posting, and lurking

is

often associated with being scum, in my experience. Being absent or busy is something that can happen to townies as much as it happens to scum.

Darkdude:

I think following your absence and consequent peculiar timing of posts (most of the time immediately after someone points out inactivity) deserves my questioning.

I was doing my best to check the thread and check in at least every couple of days, and just about each time I checked there was someone mentioning my inactivity. I can see how this could be mistaken for lurking, but in my defense I present the evidence that when I have some days off work in a row (as in this weekend) I am most certainly not lurking.

Darkdude, I am interested in why you are participating in a bandwagon on Zeddicus rather than, say, asking the mod to replace him. I think scum like to vote for people who are easy targets, rather than someone who will argue back.

Oh and triple posting? It's a habit of mine when I start getting into a game. Does it really matter as long as I'm posting?

[Talitha]

VoD - Thanks for the explanations.

And I think the reason that you're the only one still looking behind the day one lynching vote of yours is because we've all read what happened and drawn our own conclusions already. We read your explanation and either believed you, didn't believe you or didn't know. I'm one who doesn't know, but I doubt I'll be convinced into 100% believing you, as I will always keep in mind that this is a game of deception. So anything you say about it further is taken with a grain of salt and kinda unnecessary, IMO.

While I'm here:

Mod

Has Zeddicus picked up his prod of 10 days ago? Might be time for a replacement?

Yes, he picked up his prod, However I've also prodded him again 2 days ago and will replace him if he hasn't posted before tuesday morning my time (GMT+9). - Crub

[darkdude]

I don't want him lynched, I want activity from him. Otherwise I might as well ask for him to be mod killed.

Seems like everyone is looking WAY TOO MUCH into my votes. I'm a simple person, you know!

[QuantumFruit]

@darkdude: What pointless statement did I make? Also, the only way we can figure anything out is by looking way too much into everything (including votes).

--

Darkdude, VoD, why are you guys being so damn hard on Talitha? It just doesn't make sense to me and I find it an itsy bit suspicious. It's like she's an easy target and she'll be gone for a while so then you can build a case against her when she can't argue back. Also the "lurking" - someone's busy so they're DUN DUN DUN "lurking" and they're SCUM. (Obviously I'm being intentionally absurd at this point - it's 1:30 AM.) But yeah, "lurking" is an easy excuse to accuse someone with and I'm just not buying it.

[thevampireofdusseldorf]

QF you are right about being hard on talitha but I have not built a case against her nor used her absence from the game as any reason to try and throw suspicion on her. When talitha asked me to explain why I was voting zed when I believed all the reasons/explanations for that had been outlined I got a little angry. The point I am finding issue with is not about lurking but about beeing able to comit enough time to play a game. I am also being lienient with talitha as she has explained her busy life. But if players are ok about people posting very little because they have busy lives this then gives rise to acceptance of limited posting/lurking. How do you tell each apart, and if beeing busy is an acceptable excuse for a whole game then that becomes a credible lurking defence.

[darkdude]

@darkdude: What pointless statement did I make? Also, the only way we can figure anything out is by looking way too much into everything (including votes).

I concur, but my previous statement was a defense and not a suggestion that we should not look hard.

Darkdude, VoD, why are you guys being so damn hard on Talitha?

Why do you think I'm being hard? You yourself just pointed out the need to look into everything. I wasn't even suspicious of her. Just pointed out the weird behaviour of Talitha - triple posting on one subject, repeating herself when there is no need.

Now we have two weird cases:

Talitha's repetitive posts
Quantum Fruit's paradox

[darkdude]

Okay just did a quick reread of recent posts again, and now I officially suspect Talitha and Quantum Fruit.

Most obvious is the contradiction I mentioned above. Sounds like weird scum logic to me.

Unvote

Vote: QuantumFruit

[Cephrir]

I don't really get either of your suspicions. People sometimes post and then think of something else to say-- it happens. Why is that scummy?

The QF thing is really minor if it even exists, but either way I don't get it.

[Talitha]

Um, where did I repeat myself? Apart from directing the same question to 3 different players who were all voting or threatening to vote for someone who is not here.... I don't get it. Back up your assertions please, Darkdude.

[Talitha]

And if I did happen to repeat myself, maybe you could

explain

what makes that suspicious.

[Talitha]

VoD: I think that overall I am contributing enough to this game, and have probably contributed as much or more content than several other players. I don't understand why I'm being singled out. If people disagree with me and think that my contributions are inadequate, I will ask to be replaced.

[QuantumFruit]

@darkdude: What is a paradox? (Don't be cheeky and define paradox.) The only thing I am defending Talitha in is that she has a busy life and you and VoD were being harsh. I wasn't saying you were looking into it too much - that's not the problem. The problem is that she is a grown individual with a job and a family, and regardless, those should be above a game of internet mafia on the priorities list - and you guys are telling her that she's lurking and accusing her of being scum. When she is around, she analyzes and looks into stuff and puts time into it (as evinced by three long posts in a row) and does more analysis than you in any single post. This is what bothers me.

Just because one of you or both of you has posted why you're suspicious of zeddicus doesn't mean you shouldn't answer when someone asks why that is. Perhaps they wonder whether there's something new you've thought of, perhaps they misunderstood something, maybe it didn't seem like enough reason. Maybe they just missed it.

Also, you just posted twice in a row darkdude - are you scum?