Mini 527 - Doom in Valencia - Game Over!


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Post Post #650 (ISO) » Sun Mar 16, 2008 12:53 pm

Post by gorckat »

neko wrote:This is a critical moment. Gorckat has asked why he wouldn't have just stayed on soupfly if he were scum and get him lynched. Well, he had already switched to Arakorn, possibly in hopes that a bandwagon would start there.
Would the scum bus their godfather so early on, when it maybe wasn't even necessary? I think it so. Nevermind that he was the godfather, was he really that valuable? Sikario made some very strange gameplay, and out of the three would easily have been the weakest on the scumteam.
I bussed my GF day in Veggie mafia, and bussed a scum day 1 of Communist Mafia. Both were very different circumstances, notably- full majority lynches.

In this case, if I were scum, it would have been way smarter to let DR fall Day 2. Attention would have focused on him and we'd be one body ahead, with maybe a cop look at him possibly clearing him.

No way I'd bus a GF w/o majority support Day 1. It just doesn't make sense.

Votecount;

Javert (1) gorckat
Arakorn (1) soupfly
gorckat (2) arakorn, neko


Not voting; The rest of you
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Post Post #651 (ISO) » Tue Mar 18, 2008 10:38 am

Post by Jenter Brolincani »

I've been muchly told off for being a badmod.

I've finished my work pile tonight, tomorrow I'll do the math, count the votes and probably impose a 1 week/10 day deadline.
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...this would be much simpler for me if one of you could stop making sense and act like scum. - Elmo

...So the only scum is a player with no vote, no NK and doesn't exist? - Rogue Shenanigans
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Post Post #652 (ISO) » Wed Mar 19, 2008 8:39 am

Post by Jenter Brolincani »

DEADLINE SET for the 29th march.
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...this would be much simpler for me if one of you could stop making sense and act like scum. - Elmo

...So the only scum is a player with no vote, no NK and doesn't exist? - Rogue Shenanigans
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Post Post #653 (ISO) » Wed Mar 19, 2008 3:01 pm

Post by Javert »

Flew back into town yesterday, and I will not have the time to read this game until Saturday (possibly Friday).
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Post Post #654 (ISO) » Thu Mar 20, 2008 4:08 am

Post by Arakorn »

I will be away 'til Monday, but might be able to check in on Saturday. (Unlikely though)
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Post Post #655 (ISO) » Thu Mar 20, 2008 4:29 am

Post by neko2086 »

Soupfly, are you available for comments?
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Post Post #656 (ISO) » Thu Mar 20, 2008 7:40 am

Post by gorckat »

Present. FWIW.
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Post Post #657 (ISO) » Fri Mar 21, 2008 7:47 pm

Post by Javert »

Argh: I will admit I am getting tired of reading this game. It feels as if I've almost memorized the whole thing, given that I've read the posts so many times (excepting for some of the latest posts).

I think I will (finally) place what will hopefully be my only vote this game.

Vote: Arakorn
.

I know when I first entered the game, gorckat struck me as one of the two people who looked townish. I admittedly had displaced suspicions early on, but circumstance proved me wrong on two of them (Tarhalindur and soupfly) and during Day Three I was starting to think MBF may have been a townie based on a couple past games I have played with him (in that I have been scum with him on two separate occasions, and he did not appear to be playing the same way in this game – but that is pretty much irrelevant at this point). I generally regret
not
going with my first intuitions, so I am going to go with them here.

I will also note that it is very difficult for me not to just toss my vote on gorckat here in order to lynch him, such that if the game were to continue,
I
would then be the one with the "easy lynch target" tomorrow in Arakorn. Hopefully this doesn't come back to bite me in the ass, but I would rather try to lynch the person I think is more likely to be scum rather than try to secure me the "easier" lynch for a hypothetical tomorrow.

Most of my suspicion on gorckat seems to stem largely from things I find personally problematic with what appears to be his playstyle: in particular, (a) the fact that he votes without explanation only to provide reasoning afterwards, (b) his placement on bandwagons, and (c) his claimed play that he would rather lynch the more 'difficult' players first so that the 'easier' players are left afterwards [established both with the "MBF > Arakorn vigging"-plan, as well as the "Javert > Arakorn lynching"-plan]. Of course, there
are
some things he has done which I have not felt comfortable with which cannot really be swept under the carpet of "playstyle", but:

Most of my suspicion on Arakorn seems to be coming from his
actions
and not really what I consider to be his 'playstyle'. I will not bother summarizing this again; I already did so earlier.

If I have counted correctly, this puts Arakorn at Lynch-1. Feel free to ask me any questions.
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Post Post #658 (ISO) » Sat Mar 22, 2008 12:55 am

Post by gorckat »

Javert wrote:Most of my suspicion on gorckat seems to stem largely from things I find personally problematic with what appears to be his playstyle: in particular, (a) the fact that he votes without explanation only to provide reasoning afterwards, (b) his placement on bandwagons, and (c) his claimed play that he would rather lynch the more 'difficult' players first so that the 'easier' players are left afterwards [established both with the "MBF > Arakorn vigging"-plan, as well as the "Javert > Arakorn lynching"-plan]. Of course, there are some things he has done which I have not felt comfortable with which cannot really be swept under the carpet of "playstyle", but:
a) Far better players than I do the same. Glork recently did it to me in an another ongoing game, despite 30 pages of info. I also see mbf doing it this game (as town!).
b) "Third on the wagon is scum!" sorts of things? Commonly considered bunk. Citations and proof such placement equates with scum required.
c) See ABR's mini 486 where I argued the same (this was just the last time before my lynch- see my posts for several other times I borught it up) against Elias, yet was town.
c2) I never said I wanted mbf vigged over Arakorn. I think I read a question wrong earlier. You
asked
why I never wanted Arakorn vigged over mbf, but the
plan
tar presented put Gorgon and mbf up on the block. iirc, from skimming my posts right now, Arakorn was probably in a pool of people to be dealt with as a course of the plan.

For playstyle in general, yes- I think we are oil/water.
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Post Post #659 (ISO) » Sat Mar 22, 2008 4:44 am

Post by neko2086 »

a) Far better players than I do the same.
Yes, but do they do it throughout the entire game? Whenever I've seen this, it's been early on to provoke discussion, or it's been done to gauge reactions. I don't see either from you, really.
b) "Third on the wagon is scum!" sorts of things?
That is a pretty flawed argument, though I'm not sure if that's what Javert was talking about. Javert, could you elaborate on that point?
c) See ABR's mini 486 where I argued the same
That seems just a little different. The motivation in that post seems to be to avoid WIFOM arguments the next day. But, I probably still wouldn't like that argument, so you may have a point here.


Javert, how do you feel about Arakorn's latest posts?
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Post Post #660 (ISO) » Sat Mar 22, 2008 6:06 am

Post by gorckat »

Regarding the voting without reason- I clearly recall the ones early on in this game- the ones that were provocative and trying to get reactions. I don't recall doing so after Day 1 was in the books.

On the bandwagon placement- I'm trying to point out that those 3rd on the wagon types arguments
are
flawed, and that's what it seemed Javert was saying. If he broke down my postition on wagons and lynches earlier, please direct me to it and I'll address it directly (possibly pointing to any rebuttal I already have made, if I did so).
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Post Post #661 (ISO) » Sat Mar 22, 2008 7:40 am

Post by Javert »

No, I was not referring to "third on the wagon", "fourth on the wagon", or any of that. I was referring generally to his placement of
so many
votes and often at opportune times (the Archaist vote and the DR vote coming first to mind), which were additionally (as previously mentioned) not supplied with up-front reasoning. I can see cases where players use the "vote now, explain later" tack under certain circumstances, but his placement of votes such as that seemingly
all the time
is another aspect of his gameplay which does not mesh with me. When one continually moves their vote around, the chances of "pressuring" somebody without providing an explanation drops. To me, the
point
of voting somebody without explanation is to see if they start to panic or get overly worried about the vote cast on them. When one is so willing to swap votes without explanation, you lose the force behind your votes.
neko2086 wrote:Javert, how do you feel about Arakorn's latest posts?
I feel like Arakorn has been trying to play a "soft" newbie card since pressure has turned on him, with his "I am not nearly as skilled as you" line as well as the "I would rather trust in your votes" line (this refers to Post 639). I would have liked his post much better had he simply answered my questions without tossing in these superfluous lines.

After having considered the possible methods for Arakorn-scum to win this game, he is actually probably playing the best strategy he can attempt right now. In order for him to win as scum, he essentially has to get both myself and gorckat lynched today and tomorrow, in some order. Really, the only plausible way
I
can think for him to do that in his position is to play to emotion -- which he appears to be doing by both appealing to inexperience, and offering himself up as the 'sacrifice'.
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Post Post #662 (ISO) » Sat Mar 22, 2008 7:48 am

Post by Javert »

While I am thinking about it:

Mod
, can you confirm that it takes over a quarter of the votes -- in this case, 2 votes -- in order to lynch somebody at deadline? Some mods change their deadline rules according to how many players are alive, just want to make sure you are not one of them.
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Post Post #663 (ISO) » Sat Mar 22, 2008 10:07 pm

Post by Javert »

Javert wrote:(a) the fact that he votes without explanation only to provide reasoning afterwards
gorckat wrote:a) Far better players than I do the same. Glork recently did it to me in an another ongoing game, despite 30 pages of info. I also see mbf doing it this game (as town!).
Firstly, please do not refer to on-going games -- I do not know Glork's alignment in that game.

Secondly, I have nothing against voting without explanation
per se
; only in certain contexts. I have done it myself at times, and other experienced players do the same -- I find nothing wrong with the act in isolation. However, voting without explanation still requires an explanation after the desired result(s) have been achieved, or the opportunity for the desired result(s) have properly been given. In this particular game, the explanations you have
given
for your votes have not all been satisfactory to me. This is all been covered in my two "analysis" posts I have done on you.
Javert wrote:(b) his placement on bandwagons
gorckat wrote:b) "Third on the wagon is scum!" sorts of things? Commonly considered bunk. Citations and proof such placement equates with scum required.
Covered in latest posts.
Javert wrote:and (c) his claimed play that he would rather lynch the more 'difficult' players first so that the 'easier' players are left afterwards [established both with the "MBF > Arakorn vigging"-plan, as well as the "Javert > Arakorn lynching"-plan].
gorckat wrote:c) See ABR's mini 486 where I argued the same (this was just the last time before my lynch- see my posts for several other times I borught it up) against Elias, yet was town.
All right, I've read the posts to which you have linked me (and a few leading up to those posts), and I will be honest in saying I do not see a parallel.

It looks to me that in ABR's game, you were attacking Elias_the_thief for substantial reasons, such as (a) he "forgot" the amount of scum, (b) he appeared to be "giving up", (c) that he "backtracked on Oman", and (d) that he "cleared SPAG but couldn't read pulse". You come to the conclusion that "Its a lot of circumstantials that make him the best choice, imho, for today".

To me, that makes it look like you were trying to lynch the player you thought was most likely to be scum (the 'best choice'), and not only that, but you were presenting coherent reasons as to
why
you thought him to most likely be scum. I am not seeing any motivation of "lynching the hard players and not the easy players" in your posts.

If you feel I am reading your posts incorrectly, please quote and emphasize which portions you believe I am reading incorrectly.
gorckat wrote:c2) I never said I wanted mbf vigged over Arakorn. I think I read a question wrong earlier. You
asked
why I never wanted Arakorn vigged over mbf, but the
plan
tar presented put Gorgon and mbf up on the block. iirc, from skimming my posts right now, Arakorn was probably in a pool of people to be dealt with as a course of the plan.
Of course you never
said
it: what is relevant to me is that you did not suggest the alternate plan of having Arakorn vigged at that time, especially after you had been pursuing Arakorn for so long. It is a rare town that follows plans to a T -- even those concocted by people who turn out to be confirmed innocents -- so making sure the people
you
thought were most likely to be scum were killed as soon as possible should still have been your top priority.

Of course, this falls full circle on one of the larger differences between what I am taking to be our general playstyles. I want to "deal with" the scummiest players right off the bat, instead of "saving them for later", which you seem to be just fine in doing.
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Post Post #664 (ISO) » Sat Mar 22, 2008 10:29 pm

Post by soupfly »

i think this day has lasted long enough and what order we lynch arakorn/gorckat makes no difference at this point.

unvote: arakorn

vote: gorckat


lynch arakorn tomorrow if gorckat is not scum. neko is town: i don't think you can lynch javert cause his play has been very good.
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Post Post #665 (ISO) » Sun Mar 23, 2008 12:19 am

Post by gorckat »

Bah. Good luck guys.
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Post Post #666 (ISO) » Sun Mar 23, 2008 2:06 am

Post by Jenter Brolincani »

That's lynch lads.

Gorckat is dragged to the hanging post, defiant to the last. "I have no problems with dying for my city," he cries out as the noose is tied. "Yet I know that we shall prevail at the last. For God and Valencia!"

Soupfly kicks the stool away. It's done.

neko runs in. "Guys! I searched his house, and you'll never guess what I found!"

"What?"

"A really cute rubber duck!"

"You were mean to be looking for GUNS," says soupfly desparingly.

"Guns? No, none of them."

"Oh shit..."

"Not AGAIN..."

Gorckat, townie, is dead.

Thanks Gorckat, you've been an excellent player.
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...this would be much simpler for me if one of you could stop making sense and act like scum. - Elmo

...So the only scum is a player with no vote, no NK and doesn't exist? - Rogue Shenanigans
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Post Post #667 (ISO) » Wed Mar 26, 2008 2:38 am

Post by Jenter Brolincani »

Day dawns like a badly made PowerPoint presentaion...

And mysteriously, there's an obstacle in the middle of the main road. It's very large, and made of rubber, and obviously used to be inflated.. And it squeaks when you poke it...

Oh, and soupfly is dead underneath it.

Soupfly, inventor
, was squashed by the explosion of a giant inflatable rubber duck.

It is now day five; at 3 alive, 2 to lynch, meaning LYLO!
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...this would be much simpler for me if one of you could stop making sense and act like scum. - Elmo

...So the only scum is a player with no vote, no NK and doesn't exist? - Rogue Shenanigans
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Post Post #668 (ISO) » Wed Mar 26, 2008 7:45 am

Post by Arakorn »

Shit. Well, I guess I'm going to die now but I am town. I'll go against my instinct and vote Javert as I believe he has played very well and it could be masked as a scum. Not that my vote matters anyway, the town is doomed now.

(I won't vote yet though, there should be at least some discussion).
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Post Post #669 (ISO) » Wed Mar 26, 2008 8:11 am

Post by Javert »

There is no need for you "not to vote" unless you are thinking I might vote neko2086, which is not going to happen. Voting only "stops discussion" if there is a hammer vote.

Vote: Arakorn
.

I had two posts I was working on overnight on the assumption that we were in a scenario such as this today, but I am on a school computer right now. I will finish them later tonight and post them. The first explains some research I was doing on "TWCenter" (where at the very least, Pra, Arakorn, and Jenter all come from), and the second lists out the reasons Arakorn is scum.
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Post Post #670 (ISO) » Wed Mar 26, 2008 10:46 am

Post by Javert »

Back home. Finished this post, working on next.

Note: I will not be asking Arakorn questions, because I am not concerned with 'hunting' for scum at this point – I just need to get the scum lynched.

Based off Pra a Funkee Homo Sapien's Post #224, I checked out the "TWCenter" that Pra mentioned, and found this game set-up, which is the exact same set-up we are playing in (Cop-Mason, Mason, Inventor, 6 Townies v 1 Mafia Godfather, 2 Mafia Goons). The only difference appears to be that in that game it appears as though the Cop-Mason and Mason were not "siblings", like they apparently were here. I assume the mod "Jubal_Barca" is, in fact, Jenter Brolincani (both have the abbreviation "JB").

Here's what's relevant: "Arakorn-eir" (aka Arakorn) was in that game, and hence if anybody was to recognize the set-up, Arakorn and Pra were the most likely given Tarhalindur's claimed Mason-Cop with guaranteed sanity and guaranteed mod-confirmed Mason partner... especially given that there were no counter-claims to either the Cop claim, or the Mason claim. It's not every day you see a claim
that
strong – it is
bound
to ring bells if you have seen it before.

Now [WIFOM aside], I think most players would not have tried to kill Tarhalindur on Night Two, specifically because he was clearly a very powerful role, and was
easily
going to be the Doctor's protection target. Doctor-hunting would have been the more prudent option by far.

The catch
: If a person somehow had knowledge that there was not a Doctor role in the game or had reason to
doubt
the presence of a Doctor, they would clearly try to kill Tarhalindur. And from all angles of looking at things, I see no other explanation for the lack of N2 kill other than Arakorn tried to kill Tarhalindur but was foiled by soupfly.

As it happens, there is clear evidence from this game that Arakorn knew (or at least was confident) there was a not Doctor. It stems from the following:
Arakorn, Post 395 wrote:I also think it's worth to give this a shot and lynch Meme,
at least we'll get a confirmation on his role next morning... That is unless someone has protective powers to protect Tar.
He
knows
the town will get confirmation of his role because he knows (a) that he will trying to kill Tarhalindur over the night, and (b) that Tarhalindur will be successfully killed. To cover his bases, though, he mentioned the offhand possibility of a "protective role"... note that he does not say
Doctor
. Why? Because he knows the only possible "protective role" is the Inventor, and the chances of the Inventor happening to (a) target Tarhalindur and (b) target Tarhalindur with the correct invention are very low.

~~~~~

That ended up sounding a bit convoluted. Summarization:

A.)
Arakorn has played in this set-up before, by the same mod.

B.)
Arakorn stated that "at least we'll get a confirmation on his role the next morning... that is unless someone has protective powers to protect Tar". He already knew that Tarhalindur would be targeted by scum, he knew that scum would successfully kill overnight (as he had
good reason
to disbelieve the presence of a Doctor), and he knew that the instead of there being a Doctor role, the only chance to save Tarhalindur was an offhand "protective role" (aka Inventor).
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Post Post #671 (ISO) » Wed Mar 26, 2008 11:03 am

Post by Arakorn »

Very well then.
Vote: Javert

Neko, you decide the game. Either Neko is scum and we (Javert and me) have gifted the game to them or then Javert is scum and Neko will (probably) vote me to give the scums the win.
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Post Post #672 (ISO) » Wed Mar 26, 2008 11:25 am

Post by Javert »

That takes the cake. I am
so
frustrated I have to argue this much against a player who is not even going to respond to me, and gives me nothing to respond to. Regardless, this definitely needs to be said:

Arakorn, you have read Post #644. Summary: neko2086 basically runs down reasons he thinks you are
not
scum: he buys that you are inexperienced which lessens the severity of everything you've done this game, he buys your 'sacrifice'-talk, and he thinks that because you are being lazy and actively lurking and not doing anything of consequence that this makes you town (because he "expects scum to fight tooth and nail", despite the fact that
townspeople fight tooth and nail too
, especially if they have personal pride on the line).

Granted, neko doesn't really talk about
me
in relation to you in this post, but his viewpoint is pretty clear: "Javert appears to be a good player, so I cannot trust anything he says or does" -- it seems likely everybody in the game has held this view, and I am getting used to it by now.

Here's the point: In case you haven't noticed (although I am positive you have), my position is
much worse
than the one you're playing from. Here's why:

Even if I were to make an airtight case proving that you are scum (which clearly is not possible without ways to confirm alignments), it will be viewed with suspicion precisely because I am an older player. This is an insanely difficult burden to deal with. You, on the other hand, get to say nothing and offer no explanations for
anything
, and because of the way you have played this game (in being completely useless), it only acts to "confirm" that you are 'inexperienced' and from that (although I do not understand how or why) that you are town.

I personally have an awful feeling I will be lynched this game (given the vibes I have been feeling from neko2086), but that is not going to stop me from trying my damnedest to get you lynched. Stop this whole "woe is me" charade and pony up.
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Post Post #673 (ISO) » Wed Mar 26, 2008 11:44 am

Post by soupfly »

bah, go town!
i am sofa king!
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Post Post #674 (ISO) » Wed Mar 26, 2008 12:29 pm

Post by Javert »

1.)
He enters the game asking others to summarize it for him, despite it only being 11 pages long. The only other player to have shown no real signs of having actively read the game (allowing them to get away with not giving opinions) was DR.

2.)
He has preemptively painted himself as a player who does not contribute, which allows him an easy defense for when he is actually called out for not contributing. He is likely being truthful about his claim, but starting off the game warning us three separate times (quoted in an earlier post of mine) about it was unnecessary. This has essentially given him the fodder to lurk in plain sight, while hardly ever offering up an opinion (so that he can never be contradicted or questioned about them).

3.)
Arakorn is clearly not a "new" player
; the game I linked to at TWCenter began
last summer
, and he had played games even
previous
to that one. He also began this game by denying being a newbie player.
And yet
, he has still appealed to his inexperience
twice
upon being pressured, with the lines " I am not nearly as skilled as you. :(" and "I'd rather trust in your votes, (the more experienced player's) than in my own "feelings"". This is basically playing a "soft" newbie card; he is not claiming to be a newbie outright, but he is still trying to
reap the benefits
of being given the "benefit of the doubt".

Experience has nothing to do with alignment.

4.)
Tied in with the above, Arakorn is making claims that clearly few experienced players would make (which is essentially a way to make somebody think "he is a newb" without that person having to actually claim to be one). Not only does his list of {gorckat > neko2086 > Javert} not make sense, but even after being asked to explain his list multiple times, he has
failed to do so
. Additionally, his mixing of names is downright
bad
("why would neko vote for me if we were both scum?").

His strategy appears to me to try for the "I am so pathetic I could not possibly be scum". And in order to keep up this facade, he needs to give off the "poor ol' me" aura as much as possible, and act as if he is "uninterested" in the game despite being so close to winning (which would be true
regardless
of his alignment, although it is clearly scum in this case). Asking to be "sacrificed" is by far the sealer of the deal...
if he was really going to sacrifice himself, he would have voted for himself
. The
only
reason he mentioned the word "sacrifice" was to evoke pity.

If you think this strategy is far-fetched, look no further than Toaster Strudel's play in Evolution Mafia (although reading the whole game is clearly not recommended). To quote from her wiki page:
Toaster Strudel's Wiki Page wrote:Mysterious yet prolific player who plays dumb to survive and be more persuasive. Really, really dumb.
Toaster Strudel suffers not from shame and there is no limit to how dumb she is willing to look to fool people. Doesn't appear to ever pay attention, does not read special game instructions, and logic is almost always faulty.
Paradoxically endowed with a brilliant scumdar. An idiot savant. Almost as funny as DrippingGoofball, which is perhaps not a coincidence.
^ Bolded for emphasis ^

5.)
Post 517 is almost a contradiction in itself. He acts incredulous that gorckat narrowed his list down to {Arakorn, Javert} while he
himself
has narrowed his list down to {gorckat, Javert} – both players clearly used process of elimination, so calling gorckat's post "useless" while he does the exact same thing is hypocritical at best.

6.)
Despite claiming to believe he was reentering the game under deadline, Arakorn still made no effort to read the game, and in fact claimed to have "no suspects at the moment", which effectively leaves his voting options as wide as possible. He suggests that he might read the game "in a week" – basically after the deadline hits.

7.)
He has reverted to WIFOM as a defense multiple times, often boiling down to "would MeMe vote me if we were partners?". The answer, of course, is
yes
. At the time, she was the
first
vote on Arakorn, and after looking back in the game, she actually
did not even present a case on him
(unlike her prior votes, although she held off on her RTB explanation for a while). As a scum partner, this holds little risk, and potentially big rewards.

8.)
Arakorn [and the person he replaced, McStab] managed get past Day One without giving a single weighty opinion. The same goes for Day Two – he votes MeMe, and then acts surprised about her self-voting. On Day Three he just follows Tarhalindur's plan. Day Four, he finally
has
to give an opinion, and it doesn't even make sense. He has been actively lurking this whole game – posting without actually posting content.

9.)
He contradicted himself in actions and deeds when he voted for MeMe while essentially asking players not to lynch MeMe yet. If he had truly not wanted MeMe lynched yet, he would have simply unvoted.

10.)
And
now
he is appealing directly to pity. "I guess I'm going to die now", "the town is doomed now". These are completely unnecessary – they add nothing to the game other than emotional appeal. And he still does not offer any reasoning. He was even so brazen as to double-check whether or not I would be willing to vote for you (neko).

It is fairly clear that Arakorn cannot
consistently
try to "fight tooth and nail" at this point, because that would flatly contradict his earlier behavior in the game. His best bet is to act useless, confused, inexperienced, and depressed, and he is currently playing up
all
of this.

~~~~~

Any questions or concerns, ask them and I will answer them at my next reasonable opportunity. We are in no hurry.
"I was born with scum like you."

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