Mini 572 - Packrats (game over)

[Ether]

3 Capricious (Zindaras, Sir Tornado, eldarad)
3 Rotten Snitch (Mizzy, Elmo, Andycyca)
1 Y (Capricious)
1 Zindaras (Skruffs)

3 Unvote (hasdgfas, Rotten Snitch, Y)

11 alive; 6 to lynch.

Prodding Capricious. Also, deadline's a' coming.

Ayup.

[Capricious]

mod

- can you prod Capricious please.

Also, a vote count would be quite nice too...

I am here, it is nice to know that you keep me in your heart when there are others who have posted less than me.

Unvote, Vote: Andycyca

[Elmo]

Unvote, Vote: Andycyca

:goodposting:

Snitch, you going to put a real vote on anyone? Ever?

[Mizzy]

Mizzy- I do not think you are really reading the posts
You corrected yourself and said you would put me at L-1 for your reasons.

No, I said I was

considering

putting you at -1L, but I can't anyway, so it's a moot point. I'm happy with my vote where it is; on you.

<My initial actions were responding to Skruffs. I didn't attack you because you were already randomly voting me and we were discussing I attacked Andycyca because of a weak vote and his slandering my play style>

I didn't say you attacked me; I didn't actually mention anyone specifically. My point was that instead of giving a good, solid defense, you seem to choose to attack, instead. And poorly, at that.

<Andycyca's vote on me was for WIFOM. I said WIFOM is half of the game and it does not justify a clear scum tell because everyone at some point does it>

He wasn't saying it was a scumtell, he said it was

one

of the reasons he was voting you, and it's a reason I agree with. Adding more WIFOM to the game muddies things and is, in most case, an anti-town action.

<There was nothing to defend. I was attacking his putting me on L-2. As I have seen so far sarcasm is not a scummy thing either>

No, but avoiding providing a defense can be seen as scummy. And yes, there is a good bit of a case against you. You should stop trying to pretend there's not one.

<Andycyca's reasons for putting me on L-2 were not justified. Newbie? WIFOM?
Maybe a reason to cast a vote earlier but not when there is already a bandwagon on me. As far as not reading- you misread your own comments and votes. I think this looked bad because you were willing to put me at L-1 for what? Sarcasm? Not reading? WIFOM? Bringing up a point that I think is important? I really think this is going a little too far>

I disagree; I feel they were justified enough for reasons to put you at -2L. -2L isn't really that dangerous and I feel you're blowing it all out of proportion. I said I was CONSIDERING putting you at -1L (if I could) because of the reasons I listed earlier. Add to them an overly-defensive tone of voice and a touch of paranoia and that's an even stronger case against you.

It would be a really good idea to not put words in other people's mouths and stop misinterpreting them so much. It makes you look scummier.

<I only continuously defended my Skruffs point because you kept attacking it. I made my point and dropped it. I will however defend my opinion that subtle hints sometimes will call someone out or catch them off guard later. Also we can assume the Gaoler was good because she was killed at night (I dont think if there was a 1 shot vig they would randomly use it the first night)>

Skruffs can defend his own points if he damned well wants to. He doesn't need you defending what he says, nor does he need you attacking what he says in the same breath. Come to think of it, this whole paragraph of yours contradicts your prior actions. You were "calling out" Skruff's comment because you thought it was questionable and now you say you're defending it? Make up your mind.

I personally think that Andycyca is using weak accusations to jump on my bandwagon. I think this is scummy. He has not given reason enough for a vote. And now that Mizzy has accused me it will be easy for him to agree on his actions.

That's an opinion you have a right to have, but I don't agree with you. And actually, I accused you long before Andy did.

[Rotten Snitch]

Mizzy-I know this will probably go back and forth for a while
There were a few things I would like to address though.

All I am saying on the WIFOM issue is that everyone at some point in the game is guilty of it. To vote me like that is ridiculous.

You say that “by avoiding providing a defense” can be seen as scummy but then in the next comment you say that my overly defensive tone and paranoia makes a strong case. So what is it? Defensive or avoiding defense what am I doing?
Paranoia? No, I just thought it was odd from the reaction I received for bringing up a point I thought was valid.
I still think this pressure is odd.

Putting words in your mouth? No I have been very good about making sure I stated and corrected your own vote on me. I said that you corrected yourself many times.
I said I defended my point on Skruffs possibly dropping a subtle hint and I said I was defending my opinion. I was not calling out his definition of Gaoler I was calling out his tone when he said it was unfortunate. And again I never defended him against my own attack. You are putting words in my mouth now.

What I meant by my last comment was that I asked Andycyca for a little more detail in the reason he voted me. He has not given it yet but now if he does he will not have to use his own words to answer me. He can copy your argument against me.


Elmo- No I will not actually vote anyone yet because all I have are suspicions. I do not think Mizzy is scum for calling me out. Andycyca I gave the FoS because I don't think he yet warrants a vote. My vote is all I have and I will not throw it around (aside from the fun random voting stage). I will vote to show my confidence in my decision.

[Mizzy]

@Rotten Snitch:

I don't mind if it goes back and forth, and I'll address anything you want me to. And probably some things you don't want me to.

All I am saying on the WIFOM issue is that everyone at some point in the game is guilty of it. To vote me like that is ridiculous.

That's like saying, "Everyone plays scum at some point so voting someone because they're scummy is ridiculous." Just because everyone does something, it doesn't make it okay.

WIFOM, when purposely added to a game, muddies the waters for the town (and I mentioned that already) which makes it harder for town to properly scumhunt. That act is, whether or not it's meant to be, anti-town. Hence why excess WIFOM is worthy of suspicion, votes, etc.

You say that “by avoiding providing a defense” can be seen as scummy but then in the next comment you say that my overly defensive tone and paranoia makes a strong case. So what is it? Defensive or avoiding defense what am I doing?
Paranoia? No, I just thought it was odd from the reaction I received for bringing up a point I thought was valid.
I still think this pressure is odd.

See, you're definitely not paying attention. I said that you are avoiding defending your own actions and are instead replacing a defense by using leading and often misrepresenting questions. It also comes off to me (though this could just be my interpretation) that you are simultaneously defending and attacking Skruffs. You're confusing two completely separate points of my case against you, and I can't tell if it's on purpose or not.

I'm not pressuring you (you already have my vote, what more can I do?) but I am expecting to see some real answers to the following questions:

1) Why won't you present valid reasoning and defensive cases for your actions when asked?
2) Why do you continue questioning a statement that Skruffs made that is not provable as pro- or anti-town and probably can never be?
3) Are you actually going to bother scumhunting any time soon?

Putting words in your mouth? No I have been very good about making sure I stated and corrected your own vote on me. I said that you corrected yourself many times.

By putting words in my mouth, I mean that you are asking leading questions as opposed to answering questions and case points I present that are a total stretch. I told you why I think you're scum, and yet you keep asking why with leading, and often misrepresenting, questions. I corrected myself once, by the way, and that's not what I'm referring to at all.

I said I defended my point on Skruffs possibly dropping a subtle hint and I said I was defending my opinion. I was not calling out his definition of Gaoler I was calling out his tone when he said it was unfortunate. And again I never defended him against my own attack. You are putting words in my mouth now.

The thing is, the only way you could know whether or not the "subtle hint" was anything noteworthy is if you are scum.

The fact that you keep wondering why he made that comment when it doesn't help town or not in the least bothers me. We have no idea what alignment the Gaoler was (please correct me if I am wrong) but if we don't know what his alignment was, then how are we EVER going to know until the game ends? It's a dead end. Drop it and move on.

What I meant by my last comment was that I asked Andycyca for a little more detail in the reason he voted me. He has not given it yet but now if he does he will not have to use his own words to answer me. He can copy your argument against me.

What, you'd actually let someone use a cop out to get out of answering a question? Yes, he COULD use my arguments to answer you, but the fact is that he already answered you in the post he voted in. He gave you two good reasons that I feel are correct and justified. I'm agreeing with him, really, not the other way around.

[Skruffs]

Sorry I been absentee, had a ROUGH week!
(innuendo here)
I'll read up but I like it more when players offer opinionated summaries. Anyone wanna do that for me?

[Andycyca]

It's strange, you know? The way RS was so pissed about being at L-2 but it took him a while to actually unvote himself. If you were worried about being (quick)lynched, why did you vote yourself in the first place? Even a jokevote is a valid vote for a lynch and definitely puts you closer to a lynch when you're under scrutiny.

Curiously, Elmo poitend exactly the same thing in 145 Look at this:

Prod avoidance post here. Why are you bitching about being at L-2 when you're still voting yourself? Hurr?

I understand I am still random voting me and

I'll take that off when I am ready to vote

but it was interesting to see how high I got huh?

Unvote: Rotten Snitch

As for WIFOM... No, I've seen several players in this forum go trough entire games without using circular logic. In a game with little info as this one, logic is the best weapon we townies have. And since WIFOM

can

be avoided, adding it is anti-town at its minimum.

mod

- can you prod Capricious please.

Also, a vote count would be quite nice too...

I am here, it is nice to know that you keep me in your heart when there are others who have posted less than me.

Unvote, Vote: Andycyca

I'm sure he "kept you in his heart" because there's a wagon on you...

[hasdgfas]

Adding to this discussion, while sometimes it is unavoidable to use WIFOM, townies should try their hardest to refrain from using it on purpose in any situation.

Adding a little something to andy's quote:

And since WIFOM can be avoided, adding it

purposefully

is anti-town at its minimum.

If you say something that you don't know is WIFOM and you state it, then other people can point it out. But if you throw in something purposefully, it ends up confusing the townies in a way that is similar to what mafia are trying to do. Simply, don't do that as a townie. If you do, it can be very scummy.

[Rotten Snitch]

Mizzy

I’ll do this again and hopefully you will see some of my point of view. (Yes I will bring old stuff up again because you are not seeing my point)

Your whole Skruffs thing, I just don’t understand your logic
Let me make it easier by explaining my thoughts
-sometimes criminals will leave behind clues to lure the police. I feel as though the same applies to mafia, some people get a kick out of dropping subtle hints early in the game
-that was where I was going with Skruffs “That’s Unfortunate” comment.
Skruffs also wanted everyone to meta- when this didn’t bring up our history and no one stumbled on this-he brought it up himself- It seemed as though he wanted everyone to see this for a reason
-I wanted to know why?- and he responded with “I'm not actually trying to make a situation of it myself, I am merely putting this information out there so that it can be acknowledged and discarded”
-I thought this was going a little too far to simply mention and discard something-

Real answers to the following questions:
1. I think I have presented plenty of valid reasoning and defense for my actions. Considering you are really the only one who has actively pursued me. Andycya did not actually give IMO valid reasons for his vote. Being a newbie is a random stage reason for a vote not a page 6 vote.

2. Why do I continue on the Skruffs thing… because you keep countering me on it.. I see it as a valid observation on my point- agree or disagree and move on-

3. Yes I think I am actively scum hunting. I have my FoS on IMO somewhat scummy behavior on Andycyca. He had enough time to quickly vote me and insult my game play instead of explaining himself to me so I understood his motive.

[Mizzy]

If you say something that you don't know is WIFOM and you state it, then other people can point it out. But if you throw in something purposefully, it ends up confusing the townies in a way that is similar to what mafia are trying to do. Simply, don't do that as a townie. If you do, it can be very scummy.

This is very well-put and that's what I have been trying to say. WIFOM is sometimes unavoidable, but you should try and avoid it if at all possible. Pro-towners need to be able to scumhunt effectively, and the mafia's job is to muddy the waters to make scumhunting harder. It's a psychological tug of war.

I'd like my scumhunting waters to be as unmuddied as much as possible and when I see someone actively adding WIFOM to the game, I WILL call them on it. There is no justification for knowingly muddying the waters.

Now that I've worn out that metaphor utterly and completely, I shall shush until there is something more to say,

[Mizzy]

RS:

I do see a lot of your logic, actually, I just think it's not good enough in most cases.

Your whole Skruffs thing, I just don’t understand your logic
Let me make it easier by explaining my thoughts
-sometimes criminals will leave behind clues to lure the police. I feel as though the same applies to mafia, some people get a kick out of dropping subtle hints early in the game
-that was where I was going with Skruffs “That’s Unfortunate” comment.
Skruffs also wanted everyone to meta- when this didn’t bring up our history and no one stumbled on this-he brought it up himself- It seemed as though he wanted everyone to see this for a reason
-I wanted to know why?- and he responded with “I'm not actually trying to make a situation of it myself, I am merely putting this information out there so that it can be acknowledged and discarded”
-I thought this was going a little too far to simply mention and discard something-

Yes, I realize the fact that criminals leave behind clues, but even if this IS a clue, is is one that we will

never be able to interpret

. It doesn't help us. It's a distraction. We will only ever know whether the clue shows Skruffs as pro-town or anti-town when he is either dead or the game ends, neither of which give us anymore info than what we will already have.

Real answers to the following questions:
1. I think I have presented plenty of valid reasoning and defense for my actions. Considering you are really the only one who has actively pursued me. Andycya did not actually give IMO valid reasons for his vote. Being a newbie is a random stage reason for a vote not a page 6 vote.

2. Why do I continue on the Skruffs thing… because you keep countering me on it.. I see it as a valid observation on my point- agree or disagree and move on-

3. Yes I think I am actively scum hunting. I have my FoS on IMO somewhat scummy behavior on Andycyca. He had enough time to quickly vote me and insult my game play instead of explaining himself to me so I understood his motive.

1. I'm not agreeing with you there...most of your defense of yourself has been exactly what Andy said it was, WIFOM and noob-cover. Neither of those are viable.

2. So basically, I keep saying that the Skruffs comment is a null-tell and you keep arguing that it's not but have no proof? How is that helpful to anyone?

3. I just don't see that Andy's action was scummy or suspect. He gave two valid reasons for voting you and then voted you. I won't answer for Andy, because I can't really and also because he already did before this (he posted not long ago) so I suggest you look there.

[Y]

Am I the only one to notice Capricious was completely forgotten?

I don't know what to make of this Mizzy-RS fight. Each of them writes big posts, but there's very little, if any, new info.

[Mizzy]

Eh, yeah, I do tend to get all self-righteous when I find something I think is scummy. I don't mean to be distracting...I'll back off a bit to let other dialog through but I still think RS is more anti- than pro-town at the moment.

[Skruffs]

Hmmm.

Unvote (if necessary) Vote Andycaca

Something about the way he was talking about distancing strikes me as someone who wants to keep attention on BOTH of us without really caring who...

his comment on how RS was voting himself and yet bitching at -2 actually makes me think RS might be town; he can continue to rile people up and if he DOES get close to being lynched (ie -1) he can unvote himself and draw it out a little longer, or turn it around, while putting more attention on those who might seem opportunistic. Andycaca went to the trouble of looking at WHO was on Rotten Snitch's wagon and then calling him out for being on it, deridedly. I think Andycaca wants a clean lynch on Rotten Snitch and he's balking until he feels more comfortable he can get it.

[Skruffs]

ALso:
zindaras is not off the hook and needs to be analyzed mercilessly throughout the game (As I am pretty sure he will outlast me)

[Andycyca]

Andycaca went to the trouble of looking at WHO was on Rotten Snitch's wagon and then calling him out for being on it

just 2 things:

the "trouble" of looking who's in which wagon is easily solved by Ether's votecounts at the beginning of each page

My username is spelled with 2 "y" istead of 3 "a"

But it's a lot easier for you to type Andy
------------------
RS, please remember I didn't vote you because "you're a newbie". I did it because you defended yourself by saying your newbiness is a reason for not contributing.

AND for adding WIFOM and a blatant OMGUS.
------------------
I mentioned it again, Capri is prodded when there's a wagon on his back and all he does is a pressure vote (a prodded guy, pressuring others?)

[eldarad]

A couple more people have picked up on this since I prodded Capri, but I'm waiting for Capri to actually say something.

I am here, it is nice to know that you keep me in your heart when there are others who have posted less than me.

Unvote, Vote: Andycyca

So what you're saying is that you've been reading the thread but have decided not to post because...what?...because other people have posted less?

Also, why don't you actually contribute some content to the game? You can comment on anything you like, but as a minimum I would like you to answer my question from post 127

Capricious, do you have anything to say?
In particular, you said you were happy with your vote on Y. But it has since been shown that your post was based on a misunderstanding. Are you still happy with your vote? Is so, why?

Maybe you could also explain why you voted for Andycyca.

[Capricious]

My vote on Y was not based on a misunderstanding, don't trivialize it like that.

I voted for Andycyca for being scum attacking easy target Rotten Snitch town.

[Capricious]

I mentioned it again, Capri is prodded when there's a wagon on his back and all he does is a pressure vote (a prodded guy, pressuring others?)

Nah, not a pressuring vote, an aspiring to lynch vote.

[eldarad]

What was it based on then?

[Y]

What was it based on then?

Seconded.

[Zindaras]

Will try to post soon. Busy week, another busy week upcoming.

[Elmo]

Unvote

:

Rotten Snitch

,

vote

:

Andycya

wagon wagon wagon

[Sir Tornado]

I'm a bit curious about how Y and Skruffs effectively derailed the RS wagon, and it is noted.

I think RS is pretty scummy at the moment. I especially don't like his responses.

Agree with Skruffs on Zindy.

Before the RS wagon started, I was leaning towards a Capricious/Mizzy scum. Not sure about Mizzy anymore since I agree with her about RS.

Still, happy with my vote.

Elmo, I didn't know about Zindy's tendency to buddy with anyone, just with Ether and Sacred.