Mini 572 - Packrats (game over)

[Ether]

3 Capricious (Zindaras, Sir Tornado, eldarad)
3 Rotten Snitch (Mizzy, Rotten Snitch, Elmo)
1 Mizzy (Andycyca)
1 Y (Capricious)
1 Zindaras (Skruffs)

2 Unvote (hasdgfas, Y)

11 alive; 6 to lynch.

[Mizzy]

Like when?

Seriously, I don't see where Capri connects you, and the divergence of opinions between Capri and Y looks like distancing as much as the Capri/Cow pair.

I'm not sure what when you're asking about. I also don't see the two exchanges as distancing, either. Just my opinion, but there you have it.

[eldarad]

Capricious, do you have anything to say?
In particular, you said you were happy with your vote on Y. But it has since been shown that your post was based on a misunderstanding. Are you still happy with your vote? Is so, why?

Skruffs, do you have anything to say that isn't about meta-gaming other people? Do you have any thoughts on

this specific

game?

[Y]

It's happened to me before that I post some sort of question or logic or possibility or what-have-you and someone who's been in the limelight in a not-so-good way has used that post of mine to divert attention off of themselves and onto me.

1. He wasn't on the "limelight".
2. He asked for a discussion, not referred to your post and asked for a discussion.

[Mizzy]

It's happened to me before that I post some sort of question or logic or possibility or what-have-you and someone who's been in the limelight in a not-so-good way has used that post of mine to divert attention off of themselves and onto me.

1. He wasn't on the "limelight".
2. He asked for a discussion, not referred to your post and asked for a discussion.

1. He had 3 votes on him that I believe were no longer random. I think that's pretty close to limelight at this point in the game.
2. Capri's post #104 quotes my post and says he wants to discuss it...but then doesn't without prompting.

[Skruffs]

Well, something I would like to point out is that in the death scene, there is hinting of strappado possibly being a werewolf - perhaps that's just how I interpreted it, though.

I am town, and if I am a werewolf, I am not aware of it;l similarly, and I am thinking of two other games here that is making me go this way; it's possible that we are all werewolves except the 'mafia' who perhaps are a group of outsiders. We don't know HOW strappado was killed (shot vs ate) so that doesn't help.

In Mith's California Trilogy, many of the power roles thought they were characters from a book but were actually famous residents from Fresno California. In Space Monkeys, the townies thought they were mafia, or something along those lines.

All I know about the game is that the theme is werewolves, there's nothing conclusive about there actually BEING werewolves, etc.

The meta was that when the game was still in signups, ether (the mod) asked me about the two n00bs, rotten snitch and strappado, who i know in real life. At least one player in this game right now was in the chatroom when i 'validated' rotten snitch and strappado (This was before roles were assigned and in public) as competent players who I know and who know each other - so one of them dying could be a red herring to get me to attack R.S. or vice versa. I'm not going to use it as such, but that's the 'meta' information I wa sreferring to.

Also I saw patrick and ether promise a scum role to zindaras, but that's beside the point. >.>

[Rotten Snitch]

Wow Skruffs you kinda dropped a bomb on that one....
I was waiting to see what others thought of your above post. Correct me if I'm wrong though. You were hinting to the Meta information:

I'm not going to use it as such, but that's the 'meta' information I wa sreferring to.

But you were not going to use it how?

Sounds like you used it just how you wanted to. But what were you trying to say here I wonder?

I wasn't going to jump on you as her killer but this post makes me feel as though you are trying to save your own butt should anyone Meta your posts.

No one else brought up us knowing each other. If they were in the chatroom when you validated us they wouldn't remember a couple of newb names. Because they at the time had no idea of their own roles.



Now I have to look at your reaction to Strappado being killed:
Post 5

O.o
Rotten Snitch, did you kill Strappado?

Post 6

"gaoler - someone who guards prisoners" - the Free Online Dictionary. It also indicates 'law officer', but I am guessing that Gaoler meant 'jailkeeper'. That's unfortunate.

Your "That's unfortunate" could be read two different ways.
How did you mean it?

[Mizzy]

I was waiting for a response to Skruffs also, but RS didn't really touch on anything I feel is helpful, so here's some food for thought:

We don't know HOW strappado was killed (shot vs ate) so that doesn't help.

That was a point I was trying to make before, but I think it got lost in my wording. I also think we've gleaned just about as much information from strappado's death as we are going to for the moment; we don't have a lot to go on there other than what the flavor and death text tells us.

The meta was that when the game was still in signups, ether (the mod) asked me about the two n00bs, rotten snitch and strappado, who i know in real life. At least one player in this game right now was in the chatroom when i 'validated' rotten snitch and strappado (This was before roles were assigned and in public) as competent players who I know and who know each other - so one of them dying could be a red herring to get me to attack R.S. or vice versa. I'm not going to use it as such, but that's the 'meta' information I wa sreferring to.

Also I saw patrick and ether promise a scum role to zindaras, but that's beside the point. >.>

I also feel that while meta can be helpful in a game, right now it's holding us back. This is more information about the outside workings of putting the game together than I wanted to know. None of it helps us and all it might do is cause problems later down the road when trying to find links between players and evidence.

I really don't like that afterthought in there of, "I saw patrick and ether promise a scum role to zindaras" because of how much crap it has the potential to create. That's like sticking a target to his back.

While I like seeing your ponderings on what we might be/have in the game, I don't see it as particularly helpful for the moment, and the rest of your post came off (to me, at least) like WIFOM waiting to happen. Putting pre-conceived notions in the town's heads about the possible alignment of players due to what happened before the game started that most of us didn't see and weren't there for is counterproductive.

As for RS, I feel like he's trying to distance himself from Skruffs, probably because of the meta info Skruffs brought up (see how unhelpful that was?) and it's already causing reactions where there might not otherwise have been. Some folks might say that's good, but I say it's completely fluff-content and does not help us scumhunt; it can only get in the way.

I also feel like RS is trying to create doubt in Skruffs where, again, he might not have otherwise and I think he's trying to vindicate himself (overly much) by casting Skruffs in the questioning light that he is.

[eldarad]

ooh, maybe the 11th March should be "let's all jump on Skruffs" day

Well, something I would like to point out is that in the death scene, there is hinting of strappado possibly being a werewolf - perhaps that's just how I interpreted it, though.

I didn't automatically link the girl the villagers were talking about to Strappado (I thought maybe the girl was the one from the flavour post in the Queue thread). Although I suspect you are right now that I think about it.

All I know about the game is that the theme is werewolves, there's nothing conclusive about there actually BEING werewolves, etc.

Indeed. And Mizzy also pointed out that there is wolfsbane all over the village, so - at least for now - the werewolves don't appear to be the main threat.

Also I saw patrick and ether promise a scum role to zindaras, but that's beside the point. >.>

lol

I really don't like that afterthought in there of, "I saw patrick and ether promise a scum role to zindaras" because of how much crap it has the potential to create. That's like sticking a target to his back.

Is it? I thought it was a joke and didn't give it a second thought.

While I like seeing your ponderings on what we might be/have in the game, I don't see it as particularly helpful for the moment, and the rest of your post came off (to me, at least) like WIFOM waiting to happen. Putting pre-conceived notions in the town's heads about the possible alignment of players due to what happened before the game started that most of us didn't see and weren't there for is counterproductive.

Well, you started it with post 78:

It kind of makes me remember the movie The Village where the "monsters" were actually people.

Mizzy, I don't really know where you stand after your last post. You said that it looks like Rotten Snitch is distancing himself from Skruffs. That suggests you think they are both scum, right?
Do you have any reason for thinking that, other than the Skruff's meta that you have just said could be misleading?

For my part, I think Mizzy has been rather hypocritical attacking Skruffs for talking about the flavour and the possible identity of the scum in relation to the town. I also think the point about the Zindaras joke is spurious.
I also think Rotten Snitch was surprisingly aggressive in his reaction to Skruffs. But I'm going to let this play out before forming a judgement either way.

[Mizzy]

Is it? I thought it was a joke and didn't give it a second thought.

I didn't; I saw it as an, "Oh, btw, he might be scum because I saw the mod promise him a scum role...but don't pay attention to me because I put an emote at the end!" kind of thing. Fluff at best and subtle hinting at worst. I really didn't like it.

Well, you started it with post 78:

No, I meant the meta information. Not the game theme theory.

Mizzy, I don't really know where you stand after your last post. You said that it looks like Rotten Snitch is distancing himself from Skruffs. That suggests you think they are both scum, right?
Do you have any reason for thinking that, other than the Skruff's meta that you have just said could be misleading?

Scum aren't the only ones who distance themselves from each other and you are experienced enough to know that. I already explained what kind of distancing I think they are doing (Skruffs and RS know each other IRL and RS seemed to be distancing himself because of that.) I have no reason to think that either is scum at the moment, and I don't actively suspect either (or I'd have darn well FoSed them.) Don't assume things. Just ask me.

For my part, I think Mizzy has been rather hypocritical attacking Skruffs for talking about the flavour and the possible identity of the scum in relation to the town. I also think the point about the Zindaras joke is spurious.

I'm attacking him for useless meta, not for flavor analysis.

[Rotten Snitch]

As for RS, I feel like he's trying to distance himself from Skruffs, probably because of the meta info Skruffs brought up (see how unhelpful that was?) and it's already causing reactions where there might not otherwise have been. Some folks might say that's good, but I say it's completely fluff-content and does not help us scumhunt; it can only get in the way.

I also feel like RS is trying to create doubt in Skruffs where, again, he might not have otherwise and I think he's trying to vindicate himself (overly much) by casting Skruffs in the questioning light that he is

Distance myself from Skruffs... not really. All this Meta gaming had me quiet because I can't really contruibute due to my newbiness. Skruffs did raise my suspicions why he even wanted to bring it up to begin with. Which is why I asked him how he meant his "That's Unfortunate" comment. Anyone could have caught that.

"Vindicate himself (overly much)".....Why would I have any reason to overly vindicate myself? I have done nothing wrong to suggest it.

Like I said Skruffs comment perked my interest and I brought it to light. If I was distancing myself I'd have FoS'd him or voted.

[Mizzy]

@Rotten Snitch:

The reason I feel your post responding to Skruffs was distancing was because of the over-defensive tones that your post seemed full of. I didn't say it was a bad form of distancing, but it really came off to me like you were trying to put space between him and you because he brought up knowing you IRL. Even now, you seem very defensive of this, even though I haven't accused you of anything.

Which is why I asked him how he meant his "That's Unfortunate" comment. Anyone could have caught that.

I'll wait to judge until I see an answer from Skruffs, but yes, I did see that, and I didn't think it was anything to bother with. It IS unfortunate...strappado was a player character who never got to play in the game. That kinda sucks.

"Vindicate himself (overly much)".....Why would I have any reason to overly vindicate myself? I have done nothing wrong to suggest it.

That's just it, you haven't done anything to warrant that kind of reaction...but I felt you were giving that type of reaction, never-the-less.

If I was distancing myself I'd have FoS'd him or voted.

That's circular logic and I'd rather if we kept away from it. It proves nothing either way.

[Rotten Snitch]

Mizzy, My thoughts on this were:

Which is why I asked him how he meant his "That's Unfortunate" comment. Anyone could have caught that.

I'll wait to judge until I see an answer from Skruffs, but yes, I did see that, and I didn't think it was anything to bother with. It IS unfortunate...strappado was a player character who never got to play in the game. That kinda sucks.

Yes Strappado was a player character who never got to play in the game. However she was also named the "Gaoler" and according to Skruffs' mad dictionary skills and the fact that the "Werewolves or whatever" killed her we can assume she had a pro-town power role. So yes it is unfortunate to the town that she was killed. Was it as unfortunate to Skruffs to make a comment - in a sarcastic way or a surprised way - is what I was asking. Being as we cannot tell tone from text we have no way of knowing how he meant it.

[Skruffs]

Yes you must be wary of the subtle emote at the end of my sentences, tehy are SO manipulative.

I remember Patrick and Ether saying they had promised scum roles to SEVERAL people before roles were actually sent out. I do not think if they were actually legitimately promising roles, they would have said so out loud, but SINCE the topic of the chat at that time WAS about Ether's game, the theme of which would only be noted as that of "werewolves", I think that it is VERY likely that someone may have overheard it, thought nothing of it, and then remembered during Night 0 when they said "Hmm...' and used it as a reason, for the sole point of creating a situation.

I'm not actually trying to make a situation of it myself, I am merely putting this information out there so that it can be acknowledged and discarded.

Rotten Snitch, I'm curious: The implications of what I was saying was that YOU were being set up the bomb, however, you took that pretty defensively.

Almost as if...

AS IF...

you had a guilty conciounse... >.> <.<

[Rotten Snitch]

No Skruffs as you said the implication that you set up was you or I would be the red herring for the attack as you already stated.

so one of them dying could be a red herring to get me to attack R.S. or vice versa

I'm not attacking you for it. I was merely stating that more than likely no one paid attention in the chat room when you mentioned Strappado and myself. I just thought it was a way you were covering your own butt if someone did actually meta.

I was curious to your statement in the very begining before the random voting ever started, you accused me and made a comment that could be seen as snide or sympathetic. This could have been playful, or it could have been leading up to this.

No, I'm not trying to be defensive just trying to nip this in the bud so it does not come up later for any reason.

[Andycyca]

As for RS, I feel like he's trying to distance himself from Skruffs, probably because of the meta info Skruffs brought up (see how unhelpful that was?) and it's already causing reactions where there might not otherwise have been. Some folks might say that's good, but I say it's completely fluff-content and does not help us scumhunt; it can only get in the way.

I also feel like RS is trying to create doubt in Skruffs where, again, he might not have otherwise and I think he's trying to vindicate himself (overly much) by casting Skruffs in the questioning light that he is

Distance myself from Skruffs... not really. All this Meta gaming had me quiet because I can't really contruibute due to my newbiness. Skruffs did raise my suspicions why he even wanted to bring it up to begin with. Which is why I asked him how he meant his "That's Unfortunate" comment. Anyone could have caught that.

"Vindicate himself (overly much)".....Why would I have any reason to overly vindicate myself? I have done nothing wrong to suggest it.

Like I said Skruffs comment perked my interest and I brought it to light. If I was distancing myself I'd have FoS'd him or voted.

Unvote. Vote: RS

1. "I'm a newbie, that's why I don't contribute a lot"
2. "Why would I..." Stinks of WIFOM

I don't consider a "That's Unfortunate" comment a bad thing, since everyone could make that kind of comment. However, attacking for weak reasons like that isn't very helpful...

[Rotten Snitch]

Hmmm. putting me at L-2 because I didn't contribute to the reminiscing of old games I was never part of? Not bickering back and forth about what someone did in games that happened months ago? WIFOM? 50% of this game is WIFOM!

How about adding an OMGUS to your reasoning as well. LOL Because I think your reasoning alone isn't good enough to put me at L-2

FoS: Andycyca

[Andycyca]

Congratulations on being either an obvious scum or a terrible protown

[Rotten Snitch]

Are you serious?

All I ask of you is your reasoning for putting me at L-2? Because I didn't ponder people’s actions based on past games and roles? Or because I looked at Skruffs’ possible subtle hint to scum and called it out? Notice how I never accused him or voted him. I just asked him what he meant by it.

What have you contributed to us?
30- random vote
69- made a comment that is hypocritical to your vote on me

Early scumhunting doesn't mean correct scumhunting, but it certainly is protown.

123- making a pointless comment on a conversation you were never really part of, nor did you continue with the conversation
140- jumped on my bandwagon for what actual reason?
142- still after I questioned your reason you insult my play style?

So I’ll ask you again- why am I scum and what was the reason for such a quick vote?

[Mizzy]

Rotten Snitch:

I'm considering putting you at -1L because of your last two posts. Here's why:

1) Attacking someone else is not a defense for your own actions.
2) Continuously muddying the water with more WIFOM and attempting to justify doing so by saying 50% of the game is WIFOM.
3) Using slightly sarcastic questions instead of a defense for yourself.
4) Not reading (Andy gave reasons he voted you, if you had looked...so why do you keep asking for some?)
5) Continuously going back to what Skruffs said about the death of the Gaoler (we have no idea what alignment the Gaoler was as far as I know and so anything Skruffs said cannot be and never can be proven as being pro- or anti-town.)

I don't like that you keep being overly-defensive against anyone who so much as looks at you and I really don't like the fact that you keep bringing up a comment Skruffs made that doesn't make one bit of difference no matter what way he meant it. I don't feel that you are even remotely trying to scumhunt.

[Elmo]

Prod avoidance post here. Why are you bitching about being at L-2 when you're still voting yourself? Hurr?

FoS

:

hasdgfas

,

Andycyca

from a while ago, anyway. Eh. I can't remember why, right now.

*pokes Sir T with a stick* I didn't ask if buddying-up was a tell or not, I asked why you thought it was a scumtell from Zindaras in this particular situation, knowing full well what you know about his propensity to do that regardless of his alignment.

[Rotten Snitch]

I'm bitching L-2 because it was a rash move for little reasons

1. "I'm a newbie, that's why I don't contribute a lot"
2. "Why would I..." Stinks of WIFOM

Is that really reason for L-2?
Or Mizzy is that really reason for L-1?

So early in the game to jump on me when I have not said anything clearly scummy.

I understand I am still random voting me and I'll take that off when I am ready to vote but it was interesting to see how high I got huh?

BTW Mizzy your L-1 comment.. you are already voting me.

[Mizzy]

I'm bitching L-2 because it was a rash move for little reasons

1. "I'm a newbie, that's why I don't contribute a lot"
2. "Why would I..." Stinks of WIFOM

Is that really reason for L-2?
Or Mizzy is that really reason for L-1?

So early in the game to jump on me when I have not said anything clearly scummy.

I understand I am still random voting me and I'll take that off when I am ready to vote but it was interesting to see how high I got huh?

BTW Mizzy your L-1 comment.. you are already voting me.

Yes, I feel that putting you at -2L is not really that dangerous and that combined with all my reasoning is legitimate reason for putting you at -1L if you can't defend yourself.

Thanks for pointing out the vote mistake on my part, I thought I had just FoSed you. I'm still pretty content with my vote.

[Rotten Snitch]

Mizzy- I do not think you are really reading the posts
You corrected yourself and said you would put me at L-1 for your reasons.

You gave reasons and I will address them.
1) Attacking someone else is not a defense for your own actions.
<My initial actions were responding to Skruffs. I didn't attack you because you were already randomly voting me and we were discussing I attacked Andycyca because of a weak vote and his slandering my play style>

2) Continuously muddying the water with more WIFOM and attempting to justify doing so by saying 50% of the game is WIFOM.
<Andycyca's vote on me was for WIFOM. I said WIFOM is half of the game and it does not justify a clear scum tell because everyone at some point does it>

3) Using slightly sarcastic questions instead of a defense for yourself.
<There was nothing to defend. I was attacking his putting me on L-2. As I have seen so far sarcasm is not a scummy thing either>

4) Not reading (Andy gave reasons he voted you, if you had looked...so why do you keep asking for some?)
<Andycyca's reasons for putting me on L-2 were not justified. Newbie? WIFOM?
Maybe a reason to cast a vote earlier but not when there is already a bandwagon on me. As far as not reading- you misread your own comments and votes. I think this looked bad because you were willing to put me at L-1 for what? Sarcasm? Not reading? WIFOM? Bringing up a point that I think is important? I really think this is going a little too far>

5) Continuously going back to what Skruffs said about the death of the Gaoler (we have no idea what alignment the Gaoler was as far as I know and so anything Skruffs said cannot be and never can be proven as being pro- or anti-town.)
<I only continuously defended my Skruffs point because you kept attacking it. I made my point and dropped it. I will however defend my opinion that subtle hints sometimes will call someone out or catch them off guard later. Also we can assume the Gaoler was good because she was killed at night (I dont think if there was a 1 shot vig they would randomly use it the first night)>

I personally think that Andycyca is using weak accusations to jump on my bandwagon. I think this is scummy. He has not given reason enough for a vote. And now that Mizzy has accused me it will be easy for him to agree on his actions.

I also know that I am on my own bandwagon. Seeing as some are quick to put me at L-1 and I will not be near a computer to make sure I'm not lynching myself I will unvote. See you all tomorrow.

Unvote: Rotten Snitch

[eldarad]

mod

- can you prod Capricious please.

Also, a vote count would be quite nice too...