Mini 560: Methodical Mafia 2 -- GAME OVER

[Shy Guy]

This post is in response to Skruffs's doubt about my plan:

Skruffs, perhaps I was incorrect -- I was fairly sure that if I put you to the bottom, day 8 you would not be lynched, and then move on to the final 2. If that is an incorrect simulation... I am displeased, because I think it is regrettable that you are not in the final two. Maybe it was true back when you I ran the simulation, but not true currently? Possibly I was just wrong. Perhaps andersonw and Yosarian2 might be willing to consider placing you down further? If not, that's a shame... I feel pretty good about opie, so if it is myself and him, I am not extremely troubled -- but you and me would be the ideal scenario, for me.

Skruffs, I'm not sure what are trying to make of me ranking highly those ranking you low -- while I do believe you are town, I don't at all believe that believing you to be town is a town tell or something of that sort -- I don't think ordering my ballot in terms of those most suspicious of you to least has much sense. Those who are more suspicious of you I find to be townlike for reasons independent to their ranking of you.

[Shy Guy]

In this post, some general thoughts:

I find Nocmen's posts to be eminently reasonable recently. I feel like he reevaluated the game and really got his act together. His positions and statements make sense now, to me.

I find Max's post and suspicion of Thesp to also make good sense. My main reason for being suspicious of Max was his marking me as making "newbie mistakes" without ever justifying it despite my numerous requests that he do so -- maybe I am relying on that too strongly. To be fair, though, he has never gone back and justified that statement.

I'm unnerved by Sarcastro's sympathy to Thesp's suspicion of me, as I don't think his suspicion has much merit.

Ideally, were I to re-order my ballot, it would be something like:

Thesp
VanDamien
Oman
Max
Ectomancer
Sarcastro
andersonw
Nocmen
Skruffs
Yosarian2
opie

However, I am internally conflicted, because while I think the above would be a more ideal ballot, at this point I don't think votes should be changed unless it is a policy response to an arbitrary ballot change, OR if there is very good reasoning supporting the ballot change, and the result of the ballot change has been simulated and understood.

Especially of late, my posts have been rather elongated, which surprises and unnerves me. I think the nature of this game -- compacting a full game into a month -- is causing this to be so. There has just been so much to respond to -- and we are nearing the end of the game, and I don't want us to become derailed and lose in the last moments. Also, I've been using the quote feature a bit more than I usually do -- so my posts appear unnaturally long to me. Part of why I try to make my posts short is because I think logic is more transparent when it is concise -- I think everyone making shorter posts would be good, in general. The other part is that typing too much and thinking too much about who might be "scum" aren't particularly useful expenditures of my time.

In any event, I'm off for a bit now, too much typing and thinking! I'll try to outline why I find Yosarian2 to be town-like at my next opportunity.

[Sarcastro]

Shy Guy, I've made it clear multiple times why I think VD is town. The fact that you

keep

saying Thesp and I haven't justified thinking he's pro-town when you've said even

less

about Yos seems rather unfair.

I realise that Thesp didn't make a comprehensive argument or anything for why you're scum, but just the general points he made made me re-evaluate you a little bit. I have a tendency to be rather stubborn about my evaluations of players - once I started thinking about it, your play did seem rather consistent with what I

might

expect from scum. The point is not that I've suddenly found you scummy but rather that I don't feel confident in my previous pro-town evaluation of you. You're not scummy, you're just borderline. That's why I'd strongly prefer the final two to be any two of Skruffs, Opie and VD, since these are the three players I really feel like I have pro-town reads on.

I think it would be helpful at this point for everyone to clearly state which two/three/four players they'd be most happy with in the bottom two.

[Thesp]

Also, Ectomancer, we might get caught by the deadline with our pants down -- what if half of us have switched and half haven't, and deadline hits? Such a patterned, wholesale rearrangement of ballots is something I do not support at this stage.

I agree with part of this, while I still feel your "attack anything that threatens the status quo" approach unnerves me greatly.

As an aside: Yosarian2, thanks for your response. It helps.

If you can't make any argument for why you find VanDamien's idea to be a pro-town one, I don't just think you are wrong to assert it, you are wrong to assert it.

No no no no no no no no no.

I did not say I had no argument for why I felt VanDamien's approach was pro-town, I said I had difficulty articulating it. It is

ludicrous

to suggest that we should ignore things which stick out to us, even if the words don't form to present why.

I've asked you to speak in detail many times about why VanDamien's way of talking makes sense, or why his proposal makes him seem like a townie -- and you've categorically refused to do so.

This is a flat-out mischaracterization - I have said multiple times that his approach felt very natural. It seemed as though it was part of the normal flow of his train of thought, in a way that would be disjarring to see from scum.

Is this not the sort of thing town would do if they were in the final two and afraid of mafia influence? Wait -- yes it is, and you admit that:

I can understand that town might make the same comment

Even admitting that town might make the same sort of statement I am, you use it as evidence to find me scummy. Thesp, do you not, in self-reflection, find it the least bit peculiar to do so?

No, because I think scum would be far more likely in the same scenario to assert as you have, while town might do so sometimes. (When scum do something substantially more often than town, it's called a scum tell. It doesn't say town

doesn't

do it, it says scum do it

more

.)

I'm moving thesp up until we see the algorithm he promised

I didn't actually have one, I was just trying to make the scum second-guess themselves. I toyed with one for a little bit before deciding it wasn't really feasible. Sorry to get your hopes up.

Thesp, are you admitting to lying here?

Absolutely. I'm not sure how it could be construed otherwise.

Here, Thesp admits his suspicion may be completely unfounded and/or based on paranoia. I wonder, why make such a drastic ballot shift based on such shaky suspicion if you are town, Thesp?

HAVING DOUBTS ABOUT MY HUNCHES ON WHO SCUM ARE DOES NOT MEAN I DON'T THINK I'M RIGHT.

I'm deeply distressed by your calculated approach towards everything here, and I feel like your intimidation towards the status quo is more indicative of a scum who is desperate to retain their spot. Players who demand justification and arguments from their accusers (whether or not the same have been provided) are 66% scum/33% town, in my approximation and experience, and you're doing it here. I feel like I've presented some thoughts about you and some (though perhaps not thorough) justifications, yet your insistence that my suspicion of you is lacking in reasoned evidence is troubling. I suspect there will never be anything which will reach

your

level of "reasoned evidence" to suspect you, even if there

is actually

good reason. I'm getting more than a little tired of taking crap from you in games.

I realise that Thesp didn't make a comprehensive argument or anything for why you're scum, but just the general points he made made me re-evaluate you a little bit. I have a tendency to be rather stubborn about my evaluations of players - once I started thinking about it, your play did seem rather consistent with what I might expect from scum. The point is not that I've suddenly found you scummy but rather that I don't feel confident in my previous pro-town evaluation of you. You're not scummy, you're just borderline. That's why I'd strongly prefer the final two to be any two of Skruffs, Opie and VD, since these are the three players I really feel like I have pro-town reads on.

Quoted for massive, massive amounts of truthery.

I would like any of opie, Skruffs, Oman, or VanDamien in the bottom two, with VanDamien being of particular interest. I do

not

want Shy Guy there - increasingly, I think we lose if he is.

[Shy Guy]

Sarcastro, I re-read your posts, and you've done similar to what Thesp has done, which for me is not good enough to come near convincing me VanDamien is town, or even that your opinions have basis. You both have said that his proposal feels genuine, natural, and flowing from his thoughts about the game. I want to know

why

it feels like that to you guys. I myself have the exact opposite reaction -- he proposed something to look helpful, and then nothing came of it! No matter how he proposed it, it came out to nothing. For me, his proposal is a null tell, at best. What about his proposal makes you feel this way? Why does it seem like it is town motivated? What do you think of nothing coming from it? What about his phraseology leads you to believe he is honest town? What about the rest of his play?

---

Thesp, your recent post comes off as a frustrated explosion. I'm not sure what I could have said that would cause a different reaction; your post 365 seems to have pre-judged any response I might have made before I made it. I disagree with many of the assertions you've made in your response. I don't think it is at all ludacrous to say we should ignore things you can't provide explanations for -- if you can't provide reasons for thinking something, we can't evaluate its truth or lack thereof, or assess the legitimacy of the position you hold. I don't think I'm mis-characterizing your response, I disagree that a calculated approach is indicative of a scum approach... I could go on, in a little more detail. But with your current attitude, I'm not sure what good I'd be doing. If you think some good might come of me responding to your post in a detailed way, let me know.

Your emotional reaction makes me believe you are grasping scum. At best, you are a player playing on little more than feelings and hunches, whose evaluations can't be based on much more than the same.

---

On Yosarian2:

He's been cautious of everyone. Even coming out of the gates, in his post 3, he was suspicious of my alleged play-style, not willing to let anything slide. He was particularly critical of me early -- for good reasons (unlike some other's later-formed suspicions...). He didn't want me to lurk, he found my selective questioning to make sense, he continued beating on both doors until he was satisfied -- he seemed very much to be legitimately trying to determine my alignment.

As the game progressed, he called out lurkers (post 11 of his), reacted naturally to Ectomancer's pledge to him, pointing out several substantive problems with it, even though Ectomancer was pledging to him.

He reacted very reasonably (31) when Oman and Skruffs, among others, decided to find him suspicious for being found townlike, explaining how it is a fallacy to find someone scummy solely because others find them to not be scummy.

Even recently, when I prodded him about why he didn't want to be in the last two, and criticized my logic about the scum changing their ballots at the last minute in a reasonable way.

To sum up, he seemed to really be trying to discern my alignment, and did not let me off easily at all in the beginning of the game. He has treated other's similarly. He has defended himself well, with logic, and has had reasonable positions about game-theory type stuff throughout the game. Also, he has reacted in what seems a very town-like way to Ectomancer's pledging to him, initially being very suspicious but then later having a reasonable suspicion that Ectomancer is town because he couldn't see scum pleding to a townie (ostensibly Yos2 is a townie from his POV) in the way Ectomancer did.

Even so, I am extremely hesitant to put him last, for Sarcastro's reason that Yosarian2 is very tricky and may be deceiving us.

---

Of note in the above -- I've demonstrated how I could find someone's suspicion of me very reasonable, unlike Thesp claims in 378 (Thesp: "I suspect there will never be anything which will reach your level of "reasoned evidence" to suspect you, even if there is actually good reason"). I in fact find Yosarian2's suspicion of me a town-tell -- he didn't want to let some things slide, and had good reasons for prodding me.

Also, I again plead Thesp to answer why he was not at all bothered by the connection between myself and opie, and was instead bothered only by the connection between myself and Yosarian2. I've asked you to respond to this numerous times, and you never have.

GAH. Too much text.

[Thesp]

Your emotional reaction makes me believe you are grasping scum. At best, you are a player playing on little more than feelings and hunches, whose evaluations can't be based on much more than the same.

You're full of crap.

Also, I again plead Thesp to answer why he was not at all bothered by the connection between myself and opie, and was instead bothered only by the connection between myself and Yosarian2.

I think there's a good chance opie is town - for one, I think his lack of knowledge about nights feels genuine. (Not that you seem to believe that "feeling genuine" is worthwhile.)

What do you think of other players? Who else do you feel is scum?

[Thesp]

I'd also like to hear from some other players other than Shy Guy - I'll get too aggravated with this game if he's the only person I have to talk with.

/ignore Shy Guy

[Ectomancer]

I'd like to replace ShyGu with Skruffs in the bottom 2.

[Shy Guy]

Thesp, you didn't ask me to elaborate in critiquing 378, I assume we at least agree that that wouldn't serve much use?

I find your allegation that I am "full of crap" amusing and unjustified.

However, truly, I am sorry for any way I've contributed to your poor mood. I hope you feel better.

Do you want me to talk about the other players, or am I being ignored?

My most recently posted ideal ballot is a good indication of

who

I think is scummy and town-like, and I'd be willing to explain

why

if people are interested and listening.

[Skruffs]

Skruffs, perhaps I was incorrect -- I was fairly sure that if I put you to the bottom, day 8 you would not be lynched, and then move on to the final 2.

As it stands on Day 8 (at least last night when I did a review), I was at 2 in the first round with four players left, and I would have to vote Anderson with someone else (you) to at least tie it, but since I had a vote on me in Round 7 I would lose the tie breaker.


My argument against you rankign everyone who has my down low was more or less a result of exhaustion and some paranoia; I do'nt think you intentionally studied the game, put the people who were suspicious of me up at the top of your list and then started a fake-campaign to get me to bottom two; that's more of a worse case scenario. I will be honest and say thatmy thinker is about conked out right now; I am not really analyzing motives and intents behind words like I normally do, and since we are in 'the midnight hour' or whatever it's called this is a bad spot to be. Regardless, let me do another quick run through and see what could happen.

*groans* I wanted to go to bed early tonight, too...

[Skruffs]

The frustrating part of this game is that we don't get to do any tests, we're literally stripped of town's biggest asset, information through lynches. It has to almost entirely be a judgement call.

[Ectomancer]

Not really. I'm working on an analysis of collaberation. It may also help reveal who

isn't

collaberating. Busy atm, hopefully I'll beat the deadline in time for it to be useful. I'll present some possible scum groups and why.

[Sarcastro]

Shy Guy, I'm sorry, but you're really starting to annoy me. Why are you so obsessed with questioning my pro-town read on VD? I've explained it as well as I can - what he was suggesting would obviously have benefitted the town if it were possible. Therefore, I'm pretty confident that if he truly believed it was possible, he would not have suggested it as scum. So the question is whether or not he truly believed it was possible. This is a judgment call, and I find it kind of ridiculous that you're not willing to just take my word for it that he sounded to me like he believed what he was saying. No, I can't explain it much better than that, and I sympathise completely with Thesp when he says that he also has trouble doing so. Suffice it to say that VD sounded more like a townie obviously suggesting something than scum suggesting something he knows won't work in order to seem helpful. What the hell more do you want?

Code: Select all

Ectomancer
Yosarian2
Nocmen
Max
andersonw
Oman
Thesp
Shy Guy
VanDamien
opie
Skruffs

I think people need to start moving their votes. Specifically putting Skruffs, Opie and VD below Shy Guy and Yos.

[Mr Stoofer]

Current ballots

:

[col]

andersonw

Max
Oman
Ectomancer
VanDamian
Nocmen
Opie
Sarcastro
Thesp
Skruffs
Yosarian2
Shy Guy

[col]

Ectomancer

VanDamien
Thesp
Skruffs
andersonw
opie
Oman
Nocmen
Sarcastro
Max
Shy Guy
Yosarian2

[col]

Max

Shy Guy
Thesp
Sarcastro
Ectomancer
Yosarian2
andersonw
opie
Oman
VanDamien
Skruffs
Nocmen

[col]

Nocmen

Ectomancer
Oman
Sarcastro
Thesp
VanDamien
andersonw
Max
Yosarian2
Skruffs
Shy Guy
opie

[col]

Oman

Nocmen
Max
Shy Guy
Sarcastro
opie
Ectomancer
Skruffs
VanDamien
Thesp
Yosarian2
andersonw

[col]

opie

Ectomancer
Nocmen
Sarcastro
Oman
Skruffs
VanDamien
andersonw
Thesp
Max
Yosarian2
Shy Guy

Sarcastro

Ectomancer
Yosarian2
Nocmen
Max
andersonw
Oman
Thesp
Shy Guy
VanDamien
opie
Skruffs

[col]

Shy Guy

Thesp
Max
VanDamien
Oman
Ectomancer
Nocmen
Sarcastro
andersonw
Skruffs
Yosarian2
opie

[col]

Skruffs

Ectomancer
shy guy
VanDamien
Nocmen
Oman
andersonw
Sarcastro
Max
Thesp
Yosarian2
opie

[col]

Thesp

Shy Guy
Max
Nocmen
Yosarian2
andersonw
Ectomancer
Sarcastro
opie
Skruffs
Oman
VanDamien

[col]

VanDamian

Ectomancer
Yosarian2
Shy Guy
Max
Nocmen
Sarcastro
Oman
opie
andersonw
Thesp
Skruffs

[col]

Yosarian2

VanDamien
Thesp
Skruffs
andersonw
opie
Oman
Nocmen
Sarcastro
Max
Ectomancer
Shy Guy

We are now in the deadline window. Day 0 will end without further notice at some point before

Friday 14th March

.

It is vital that you ensure that your votes are correctly recorded in the "Current ballots" summary.

[Yosarian2]

Shy Guy, I'm sorry, but you're really starting to annoy me. Why are you so obsessed with questioning my pro-town read on VD? I've explained it as well as I can - what he was suggesting would obviously have benefitted the town if it were possible. Therefore, I'm pretty confident that if he truly believed it was possible, he would not have suggested it as scum.

Yeah, but it wasn't possible. It never could have been, really. And it seems bizzare for you and Thesp to take one weak stratagy post and use it as proof that someone is pro-town, dispite the fact that they've done very little this game and almost eveything else they have done looks scummy.

[Nocmen]

Sarcastro - You will put Shy Guy higher up just because he annoys you? But I do see what you are getting at right here.

Shy Guy - Why have you waited until now to go on the initiative and start attacking people?

Ecto - If you really beleive that Skruffs should be in the bottom instead of Shy Guy, why are you not doing anything about it? Why are you keeping your votes where they are?

Right now I am most happy with opie in my bottom, and below that I would like to have Skruffs within the bottom 3, but I'm not sure anymore. Whether I keep Shy Guy where I have him right now...well, I really would like to hear him answer first.

[Skruffs]

I am going to change my post tonight, after Game Night is finished (My code list that is)
I will explain why at some point during the day; I have a lot to say, Have a nice day all.

[Ectomancer]

Sarcastro - You will put Shy Guy higher up just because he annoys you? But I do see what you are getting at right here.

Shy Guy - Why have you waited until now to go on the initiative and start attacking people?

Ecto - If you really beleive that Skruffs should be in the bottom instead of Shy Guy, why are you not doing anything about it? Why are you keeping your votes where they are?

Right now I am most happy with opie in my bottom, and below that I would like to have Skruffs within the bottom 3, but I'm not sure anymore. Whether I keep Shy Guy where I have him right now...well, I really would like to hear him answer first.

At this junction, I can only concede yours, and everyone else's point. I left my damn evaluation at home, but of the possible collaborators, Yosarian2 falls into one of the groups. Hopefully the thread will still be open, or I'll have to redraw from freaking pattern of lines drawn by tying voting patterns together. I looked at who each person voted into each position of the bottom 2 (I also expanded to the bottom 3). I took our 4 most popular and saw who tied back, and then looked at how those people tied together themselves. It made for an interesting read. (If you dont understand exactly how I drew the connections, Im not a very good explainer.)

I can say this, Max isn't collaborating with anyone, and you all would do the town a service by moving him as far down your list as you can stomach. There is also (in my mind) a conspiracy by 1 group of collaborators to keep Max out. He likely has a good ballot.There are probably others I can say are standouts, but I have to get back home, or redraw.

[Ectomancer]

Code: Select all

Shy Guy
Oman
andersonw
Nocmen
Yosarian2
Sarcastro
VanDamien
Thesp
opie
Skruffs
Max

[Max]

I'm moving thesp up until we see the algorithm he promised

I didn't actually have one, I was just trying to make the scum second-guess themselves. I toyed with one for a little bit before deciding it wasn't really feasible. Sorry to get your hopes up.

Are you aware of the phrase lynch all liars. and I thank both shy guy and ectomancer for saying they understand me it almost makes me wonder whether they just want me to move them down or whether their actually being honest

[Thesp]

Are you aware of the phrase lynch all liars.

I am fully aware of the phrase. Why do you ask?

[Sarcastro]

Yeah, but it wasn't possible. It never could have been, really. And it seems bizzare for you and Thesp to take one weak stratagy post and use it as proof that someone is pro-town, dispite the fact that they've done very little this game and almost eveything else they have done looks scummy.

Yeah, Yos, except that I was the first person to actually point out that it was logically impossible. You didn't seem to immediately realise that VD's idea couldn't work, so why do you find it so surprising that I think VD didn't either?

I'm very pleased that Ecto has finally come around, and it's started me thinking on something else. Right now Ecto has a ballot I like quite a lot (except for Max being at the bottom, but Max'll be lynched early anyway, so whatever). So why is Ecto at the top of my list? I mean, I still find him kind of scummy (though the dangerous townie bit is obviously gone now), but if he's lynched before the final two anyway, what does it matter? It actually makes more sense for me to help Ecto stick around so that his votes for Opie and Skruffs are useful, rather than help a more pro-town person who has lower-down selections I like less.

[Shy Guy]

This is a judgment call, and I find it kind of ridiculous that you're not willing to just take my word for it that he sounded to me like he believed what he was saying.

I find this sentence completely absurd. You find it ridiculous that I am not willing to just take your word for something in mafia!?!? Taking something at someone's word is in direct contrast to the basic tenets of this game! Being annoyed at me or finding me suspicious for not taking you at your word on something is insane!

For you, that is one of few points I have against you, so it is less of a big deal. But with Thesp, his reliance on me taking him at his word is a part of a bigger picture of scumminess -- including a last minute huge vote swing.

Sarcastro, you have been more reasonable, and your vote change is more moderate, but for real? Not taking you at your word?

Note: If you find the above unpersuasive, and think I should have taken you at your word: I am town. You have my word.

Shy Guy - Why have you waited until now to go on the initiative and start attacking people?

I wouldn't say I've not scumhunted this game, I don't think that is an at all reasonable categorization. Why have I gone positively offensive against Thesp? He switched his ballot monumentally just now. I find the interpretation that he is scum making a last ditch effort extremely appealing. No one has done something as monumentally suspicious as Thesp's shift -- until Ectomancer.

Ectomancer, you've committed yourself to a random pledging system. Going against that merits you the #1 spot. You've supported your choice of a random pledging system all game; switching your vote at this late hour because it suits you is hypocrisy of the greatest sort, you definitely can't say you are randomly picking now. There is nothing you can say or do that will convince me you're not scum grasping towards victory. You've used a random picking system all game so as to not have to defend your ballot, and now are straying away from it. It is inconceivable to me that a townie would do such a thing.

Code: Select all

Ectomancer
Thesp
VanDamien
Oman
Max
Sarcastro
Nocmen
andersonw
Skruffs
Yosarian2
opie

I made the Nocmen and Max changes as well because of the reasons I stated, I think they are excellent reasons. I'll defend those changes vigorously if asked about them. Even if Max keeps me high and Nocmen is misled into putting me high, I believe those two are more likely to be town than I'd previously though, and should stick around longer. I'm a fair bit too busy to run a simulation, but with the recent shifts, I believe I'm no longer in the final 2, currently. That's not a step forwards for the town.

Oh, and Max -- of course I'd like you to move me down. Ultimately its your decision.

I strongly strongly advise against moving Ectomancer down. I highly encourage everyone to place Ectomancer first. Again, it is inconceivable to me that Ectomancer is town and abandoned his strongest held position all game.

[Sarcastro]

No, Shy Guy, you're the one being absurd. I'm not asking you to take my word for it that he's pro-town. I'm asking you to take my word for it when I say that I believe VD's action looked pro-town to me. Seriously, why is this so difficult? I realise that you want to poke and prod and try to understand exactly why, but I've articulated it as well as I can and it seems like you're still refusing to accept that I could

possibly

have found VD pro-town.

Shy Guy, criticising Ectomancer for doing the reasonable thing and actually using his vote properly is ridiculously anti-town. I don't care if he committed to it, he committed to trying to win the game, too, and if he's town I want him to bloody well do everything in his power to help. Holding him to doing something anti-town that he promised to do is just absurd.

[Shy Guy]

Sarcastro, I vehemently disagree on both counts.

Let us take an extreme example: I could claim that I have a horribly hard time articulating my suspicions, and ask you to take my word that all my suspicions in this game are my honest suspicions. X looks pro town because this post seems honest. Can't say why though. Y seems scummy because this post seems like he is lying. Can't say why though. Z's bit of game theory stikes me as coming from town. Can't say why though.... etc.

I would not be asking you to take me at my word that I am *right* -- but I would be asking you to take me at my word that I am truly representing my suspicions. In sum, I would be asking you to premise that I am town, and trying to honestly play the game.

Similarly, asking me to take your word on a suspicion is asking me to assume that you are a townie and trying to honestly play the game. That is not an assumption I am comfortable making.

---

Ectomancer's main tenet of play this game has been his pledging system. That's the one thing he's argued for, stood by, and claimed was the best idea because it was immune to scum manipulation. He didn't have to do nearly as much defending of his suspect lists as most other players, because most of what anyone talked with Ectomancer about was his *concept* of random pleding.

If his break away from it is to be accepted, we are establishing optimal scum play in this game:

1) use a quacky, hard to believe, random system for all of day 0 before deadline window.
2) spend all your time defending that system.
3) then at the last minute change your ballot to best serve the interests of the mafia.
4) Profit.

I believe Ectomancer is employing that exact system.

Accepting his departure from the random pledging system is extremely misguided.