Thespival Mafia (Denouement)

[farside22]

How is Holy town. She was on day 2 talking about the doc. (aka me) still being alive and looking at me the next day, that is so full of WIFOM it isn't even funny.

How is she scum exactly?

I pointed out her WIFOM from the day before and her lack of scum hunting in all. Now how is she town because you haven't said why.

WIFOM isn't scummy when you're talking about a player with a redundant Doctor claim, with full doctor powers, that hasn't been nightkilled. That doesnt' mean that Holy is scum, it means that YOU are scum.

Lack of scumhunting? She's weak in that department, but her judgment has been sound. I see weak townie where you see something deserving of a full blown vote.

You're giving me Jester vibes again. You haven't been lynched yet. That in itself is interesting. Either you're scum, or the scumbags want to take out the Jester at night. Other players may have other interpretations.

We should lynch PJ, MeMe, or Ross William.

Keep reading she argued that if I'm not next the next day (this means yesterday before Monkey was lynched and found as doctor) that she would look more closely at me.

[Mastermind of Sin]

PJ: Well, I hope you can get things worked out. I think you have the highest number of points marked "Good point!" in my notes.

MoS:
Smart enough to figure it out? Of course.

Did

figure it out? Apparently not.

The two, while related, are not the same.

To re-iterate, the only way I see that this can be interpreted as scummy is if you believe that not only did MeMe know about the flaw, but also believed that no one else would be able to find it. This position seems completely untenable to me.

Cam

Fair enough.

Unvote, Vote: farside

[petroleumjelly]

Here is Beep! Beep!'s commentary on Pooky.

My wagon is not so big that I think there is a lot of scum on it. This being said, I do believe that Pooky's vote on me IS scummy. Less so for the others.

Pooky was on FIVE of these wagons
Farside/CB was on THREE
Pj on TWO
Mastermind on TWO
hasdgfas on TWO
RossWiliam on TWO

Pooky's bandwagon vote on me yesterday was very suspicious. I also see the case against farside. Farside might only be more careful than Pooky. I would be willing to vote for wither Pooky or farside today.

I want Pooky to explain in detail why he joined every wagon. Can scum be that brazen and in-your-face?

Pooky was on SIX of these wagons
Farside/CB was on THREE (out of 5 because one wagon was on her)
RossWiliam on THREE
Pj on THREE
Mastermind on TWO
hasdgfas on TWO
MeMe on TWO

But assuming that Pooky is town (I have a hard time to believe that scum would be so blatantly wagonny) and that farside is scum, I have looked back at the previous days wagons:

Since Pooky himself came out, I am free to point out that I noticed that he was cleared by the dead cop. Pooky is a dead teddy bear walking.

I get a solid town vibe from Pooky. His trap didn't work, but only townies would pull that kind of gambit.

Here's what I'm getting from Beep! Beep! posts:

1.)

"Everybody who joined too many bandwagons is suspicious, except for Pooky because I have a hard time believing that scum would be so blatantly wagonny".

2.)

"I think Pooky was cleared by alko_haulec, the Cop", when he asked "Pooky, why are you town?"

3.)

"Pooky is town because of his 'gambit'".

The problems with

1

are obvious; it's completely arbitrary. Beep! Beep! should be listing Pooky in his "scum scores" if his 'scores' are to carry

any weight whatsoever

, because in order for

anybody

to understand them we need points of reference. He has said himself that the "scum scores" are based

solely

on votes and nothing else; if this were true, he would not be peremptorily excluding Pooky.

The problems with

2

have been hashed over by MeMe in Post #1055. This post

perfectly

explains how I find it

incredibly

unlikely that alky had investigated Pooky as innocent.

Note: Pooky's response to "Why are you town" was "Why wouldn't I be town"? This is the second time Pooky has pointedly avoiding claiming town / not town.

The problems with

3

have been pointed out by myself; scum has

every

reason to pull that

exact

type of gambit.

~~~~~

I mentioned at the beginning of the day that I did not want to talk about nightkills, but it appears as though I might have to regardless.

1.)

It is possible that we have multiple Doctors with multiple abilities; anybody who was at Thespival probably remembers the "Doctor" game where we had 'sane' and 'insane' Doctors. This could account for a nightkill or two. (Note, however, that since Farside22 claimed to protect me on Night One, that in order for her to be an 'insane' Doctor I would either have to have been protected that same night, or I would have to be scum, or somebody would have had to nullify Farside's 'protection' on me in some manner).

2.)

I am personally skeptical that one of the kills was from a Vigilante, because I think any Vigilante with a brain would have killed Farside22 last night, given that Monkey was lynched as a Doctor; on the other hand, we may have had a stupid Vigilante trying to nightkill somebody they thought was the Jester.

3.)

The win conditions displayed in the first post only include "the town", "the mafia", and "a jester". Here's where my own metagaming of Thesp comes in.

mith's cards have four distinct scum-groups: mafia, werewolves, Serial Killer, and Cult Leader. There is no werewolf win condition in the first post. There is also no "Serial Killer" win condition on the first post. There is no Cult Leader win condition in the first post. Additionally, if there were multiple mafia groups, I would think Thesp would have altered the win condition to say "You win when at least half of the living players are

mafia

part of your mafia

, or when nothing can prevent the same."

All this suggests to me that there might just be the

one

killing scum-group, and that they might have access to

more

than one killing method.

[petroleumjelly]

Yea PJ

Scum are gonna go war of attrition with town in a game with 3 nightkills.

That's genius

what day is it btw?

A lil early for war of attrition wouldn't you say?

If I was scum, there's no way in hell I stick my neck out that far and you know it.

Here's what's relevant. We've lost seven townspeople, and no scum. There are 14 players left, one of which is the Jester. If you were scum, you would know the minimal size of your scum-group, and would hence be able to judge how many lynches you would need to win, as well as what are likely to be the other scum groups, if any.

Suppose your scum-group is large enough that you would probably be inclined to think the scum-group opposing you is probably a Serial Killer. Your scum-group probably would not have killed Talitha, which means that you would know that whoever

did

kill Talitha was likely either a Serial Killer, or a Vigilante. If you managed to lynch either of those roles, your group would only be

that much better off

with a war of attrition, because you are taking down other killing roles in the process. Even if you managed to get either one of those roles to

claim

, it is possible your scum-group would have the ability to role-block that player, or even nightkill that player. So yes: I can see scum going after a war of attrition on Day Three pretty easily.

yea

scum would act as jester

that's good idea PJ

except if a Jester gets lynched or nightkilled.

Then that scumbag is a little bit screwed enh?

If scum already thought they were going to be lynched, then trying to act as the jester is of no risk to them. Regardless of whether or not the Jester dies afterwards, they will have saved themselves for at least a day. You know as well as I do that scum will claim things they

know

might eventually get them lynched, because they are going to be concerned over

staying alive as long as possible

.

[curiouskarmadog]

^^^agree with your read on Beep

dont agree that you should be playing the game like there was no jester. I think we do have a Vig, and dont agree with the fact that the Vig should NOT be trying to hit the jester. Why is it dumb for the Vig to try to find the jester?..the fact that we have a jester is hurting the town.

I have never been in a game that the mafia had multiple killing methods..how does it work? Is there a link to a game that mafia had multiple killing methods?

[petroleumjelly]

The only thing off the top of my head is Verbose 2 (where my idea stemmed from), where each mafiate had a 1-Shot kill, to be used on any night (and since the game started with three mafiates, there could potentially be three kills on the same night solely from their group). Also in that game, the Serial Killer could kill up to two people each night.

[petroleumjelly]

For your other comment, I would much rather our Vig - should we have one - try to kill scum (mafia, SK, Cult, whatever) instead of trying to kill the Jester. Believe it or not, if we kill all the anti-town roles other than the Jester, the game is over. If we kill the Jester, the game is

not

over. Guess which one I'm more concerned about killing?

[curiouskarmadog]

PJ good point, I just see the jester as an obstacle, but you are right if we kill scum and the jester is still around, we still win.

[Beep! Beep!]

1.)

It is possible that we have multiple Doctors with multiple abilities; anybody who was at Thespival probably remembers the "Doctor" game where we had 'sane' and 'insane' Doctors.

That doesn't explain why Farside is still alive. Nor does it explain why he chose to protect a player that was AN UNLIKELY TARGET.

And PJ, of course Pooky isn't talking out loud about his alignment. Of course. We have 3 kills every night. Besides, he'd say "town" no matter what, so I don't get that "point" you believe you are making. You KNOW that Pooky is a good target for cop investigation. You KNOW that a cop will leave breadcrumbs, especially with so many nightkills. Can you find another breadcrumb? Good luck.

You also completely misunderstand my scum points, which is normal, because I don't want to go into details. But it's not based on how many wagons people are on, though it does have some bearing. It's more subtle than that.

And I still don't believe that Pooky pulled that gambit as scum.

[Beep! Beep!]

PJ good point, I just see the jester as an obstacle, but you are right if we kill scum and the jester is still around, we still win.

says the Jester ^^^^^

[petroleumjelly]

1.)

I have not

tried

to explain why I think Farside22 is alive; I was only explaining why we may have the number of nightkills we do. I find it incredulous that she is still alive as well, and I was actually the first person to point that out.

2.)

And PJ, of course Pooky isn't talking out loud about his alignment. Of course. We have 3 kills every night. Besides, he'd say "town" no matter what, so I don't get that "point" you believe you are making.

X

You aren't getting it. Pooky has a problem with lying about certain things. If you read his posts this game, whenever he references his alignment, it is always in a sarcastic or roundabout manner. Not once does he say head-on "I am not scum" or "I am town" when put to the flames. He has done this to me before as well.

In fact, you would be well off isolating Pooky's posts in Goofball Mafia. You should note a few things:

A.)

In that game, Pooky faked an investigation result -- it was a 'gambit'. He claimed a guilty result on

me

. Later he retracted it, claiming it was to see my reaction.

B.)

When I directly asked Pooky to tell me he was not scum, he instead linked to a puppy dog with cute eyes, saying something along the lines of "would these eyes lie to you?" Of course, in the process, Pooky never made a definitive statement of whether he was scum or pro-town.

C.)

Pooky tried to get the town into following him by being silly -- in particular, getting people to drink "Pangalactic Gargle Blasters" and additionally giving everybody in the town nicknames.

In case you aren't seeing the parallels, allow me to draw them out:

-->

A.)

Both games Pooky has tried a 'gambit' dealing with investigation results;
-->

B.)

Both games Pooky has avoided direct questions about his alignment
-->

C.)

Both games Pooky has had waste of space posts to 'make the game fun' (in this game, his 6 minions, or whatever he is calling them)

3.)

You KNOW that Pooky is a good target for cop investigation. You KNOW that a cop will leave breadcrumbs, especially with so many nightkills. Can you find another breadcrumb? Good luck.

Here's what I

don't

know:

A.)

I do not know who alky investigated.

B.)

I do not know if alky received a result from his investigation.

C.)

I do not know if alky had an innocent or guilty result if he did receive a result.

D.)

I do not know if the person alky investigated was even

alive

on Day Two.

E.)

I do not know alky's sanity.

F.)

I do not know that if alky had a result, he would even breadcrumb it.

I'm not concerned with looking for breadcrumbs, because he only had a maximum of one investigation, it could have been on anybody, and even if he had a result there is no guarantee he would bother breadcrumbing it, and even if he

did

that does not guarantee his result was accurate.

In particular, I find compelling reasons for alky to

not

to have left a breadcrumb in an attempt to clear Pooky. Having me peruse the game looking for things which "might" have been breadcrumbs is a waste of my time.

4.)

You also completely misunderstand my scum points, which is normal, because I don't want to go into details. But it's not based on how many wagons people are on, though it does have some bearing. It's more subtle than that.

If I'm "completely misunderstanding" something, then you need to

explain it

, instead of claiming your process is 'subtle' without going into detail.

[Battle Mage]

PJ good point, I just see the jester as an obstacle, but you are right if we kill scum and the jester is still around, we still win.

how is that a good point?
The jester is going to act like scum, so differentiating between the two is much easier said than done. Much as its nice that we can tell the difference easily, aiming for the Jester at night is the best plan for a Vig (which in case you didnt realise, entails targetting scummy players ANYWAY).

BM

[curiouskarmadog]

I took his point as meaning the Vig should target scummy players, not really target who they think is the jester...so that point IS a good point...targetting scummy players may result in a jester kill or scum kill, both are good for us.

[Battle Mage]

well DUH. They are one and the same. -.-

[curiouskarmadog]

well sort of..

[RossWilliam]

unvote, vote: Beep Beep

Until she goes into intense detail about how her goddamn scum scores work. I'm tired of her not explaining on the basis of them being too subtle for us to understand. Give us exactly how you formulate. Once I'm satisfied I'll unvote.

[Beep! Beep!]

Pooky [...] Not once does he say head-on "I am not scum" or "I am town" when put to the flames. He has done this to me before as well.

If Pooky didn't say: "I am not scum" that doesn't mean Pooky is scum. Statements like "I'm not scum" are totally worthless.

Very strange that you'd make a issue of something so blatantly misleading. It's akin to political spin.

A.)

Both games Pooky has tried a 'gambit' dealing with investigation results;

Pooky didn't accuse anybody in THIS game, so the comparison doesn't hold.

B.)

Both games Pooky has avoided direct questions about his alignment

That is so totally meaningless. If every player in the game was asked whether they're scum or town, they'd all say "town." Do you seriously think that they would be scum if they "hesitated???" That's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard.

C.)

Both games Pooky has had waste of space posts to 'make the game fun' (in this game, his 6 minions, or whatever he is calling them)

Isn't this true in every game Pooky plays in? That's my impression.

I do not know that if alky had a result, he would even breadcrumb it.

It's common sense that a cop would leave breadcrumbs.

[Beep! Beep!]

unvote, vote: Beep Beep

Until she goes into intense detail about how her goddamn scum scores work. I'm tired of her not explaining on the basis of them being too subtle for us to understand. Give us exactly how you formulate. Once I'm satisfied I'll unvote.

No - the reason why I tally these numbers is to find scum, not to show scum how I find them. You want to know how I caught you and your buddies?

Your pressuring me over this is scummy. It is anti-town.

I totally don't mind getting lynched over this. Lynch me with 500 votes if you want. And I'm not even the Jester.

[RossWilliam]

No. I am honestly starting to believe that you just pulled numbers out of you're ass to suit your own purposed, and have been getting evasive anytime anybody questions your bogus, phony, system. That is what's anti-town. My vote remains.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I disagree with Drip...err, Beep!Beep!

[hasdgfas]

withholding information

[Mastermind of Sin]

withholding information

Amen!

[farside22]

Lets see if people read things I say.
I'm tired of being ignored and I want to help with the confusion. So I will say Beep Beep you are trying hard to lynch a claimed doctor on WIFOM logic. Mafia could be using that same tactic and it is completely easy to do with Monkey dead and coming up doctor.
Now that said I am a Quack Doctor. I wasn't a 100% sure day one since I replaced a person and I wasn't going to say anything about it figuring I would get lynched saying who CB actually targeted and I wanted to stay alive long enough to understand who was scum, who was jester and who was town. I'm not getting anywhere with anyone so it doesn't matter. Night one CB targeted Mith, Mith died. Night two I targeted Sacrostro because (a) I thought him Jester and if he wasn't Jester he was scummie as hell and wanted to see if the Quack Doctor theory I had was right. Well he died and was shown as a townie. I only say this because well people keep ignoring me execpt to say I'm scummie or to listen to crap-pot Beep beep for some assign reason I have yet to understand. Plus it helps lesson the confusion on the 3rd kill or 2 mafia idea that people have.
I still stand by Holy and Mathcam as scum other then that I haven't got a clue. If you still want to lynch me I'm not going to stop or argue go right to town, but I will keep saying I expected, I still expected it and nothing is going to get through to any town person left in this game, but I already figure I'm going to be lynched. I'm just helping solve one less confusion.

[Beep! Beep!]

OK.

You said that your card had McCoy on it. However, you are a Quack Doctor, unlike the dead McCoy, who was the real McCoy, and the real Doctor. Same card, different roles.

Before, you said that you targeted PJ Night 1, and Ross William Night 2.

But now you say that you targeted mith Night 1, and he died. Night 2, you targeted Sarcastro and he died.

I don't know if you're a Jester, or scum faking Jester.

Coincidentally, the lies you made up about your targets involved two people atop my scumlist, petroleumjelly and Ross William. Or is it a coincidence?

And now you want us to lynch MeMe (yet another player atop my scumlist) and Holy (who keeps getting thrown in for some reason - maybe she is scum after all, I don't know, but if she is I need my scumdar recalibrated).

[Beep! Beep!]

withholding information

Sure is. That's how I find scum, and how I want to be able to continue finding scum. Nobody but me needs to believe in my method. I don't need to make converts. If you don't trust it, that's fine.

Vote me, lynch me over it. I don't care.