Mini 567 - iPick - Game Over: The Stunning Conclusion

[cicero]

NabNab, What did you really expect to come out of that Rogueben vote?

What else would he say?

What do you think of his answer now?

[vollkan]

I will vote: xtoxm and FoS: vollkan because

I believe

that it's scummier to agree with a not-necessarily well-thought-through plan than suggest it, because the one suggesting it might honestly think it is the best thing, while others can more easily see flaws with the plan.

You take recourse to a belief here, but I must question as to why.

If it is possible to honestly suggest something and possible to dishonestly offer support for something, why is it dishonest suggestion and honest support not equally valid. You seem to be resting on the premise than raising something at first instance is necessarily more likely to be honest, without providing any justification for that.

[NabakovNabakov]

NabNab, What did you really expect to come out of that Rogueben vote?

What else would he say?

What do you think of his answer now?

Even though we had a "pregame", I still think some random/semi-random voting is appropriate owing to the fact that most or all of us just got roles. Before we didn't have anything to do but screw around; now we actually have motives and goals. In the interest of sparking discussion, I decided to lay a vote on somebody who hadn't talked much. He talked; his opinion on the situation* has been documented; everything's cool.

Unvote

*"I agree with X, Y, and Z, but certainly not with xyzzy"

[hasdgfas]

Dishonest suggestion and honest support is possible, but for a massclaim in this kind of game day 1? I prefer the dishonest support for this case. I haven't decided upon the honesty of the suggestion yet.

[Xtoxm]

How about this one - Honest suggestion, honest agreement. No, that's impossible. No, i'm being silly. It simply can't be.

[vollkan]

How about this one - Honest suggestion, honest agreement. No, that's impossible. No, i'm being silly. It simply can't be.

NO! Hasd prefers dishonest support. Any scenario which has honest support is therefore invalid.

[Lawrencelot]

Vote: Xtoxm.

Vollkan, what do you think, did xyzzy really want a massclaim? It's not something to lynch xtoxm for, but I certainly agree with hasdf... cow about xtoxm, and it is worth at least 2 votes imo.

My opinion about massclaim: it's bullshit. Maybe at lylo it is something to consider, but town has 0 information except their role pms, while scum may have several role pms (if it's an informed minority), maybe safeclaims, but heck, we don't even know which claims (or roles even) would be protown or antitown.

Xtoxm: please, tell us how a massclaim would be good for town.

[Adel]

I will vote: xtoxm and FoS: vollkan because

I believe

that it's scummier to agree with a not-necessarily well-thought-through plan than suggest it, because the one suggesting it might honestly think it is the best thing, while others can more easily see flaws with the plan.

full of truthiness

[cicero]

Interesting choice of words, Adel. Are you agreeing with Hasd or telling him he is full of crap?

[NabakovNabakov]

Xtoxm: please, tell us how a massclaim would be good for town.

This is important. I'm surprised nobody (myself included) thought to ask this until now.

The only problem is we have two people supporting the massclaim. It's origin (xyzzy) and its backer (Xtoxm), and only the first one to answer will provide anything relevant. I propose an anti-race. First one of the two to post loses.

[Lawrencelot]

This is important. I'm surprised nobody (myself included) thought to ask this until now.

The only problem is we have two people supporting the massclaim. It's origin (xyzzy) and its backer (Xtoxm), and only the first one to answer will provide anything relevant. I propose an anti-race.

First one of the two to post loses

.

I don't get this...

[NabakovNabakov]

It's a very difficult question to answer. The first one to answer just gets burned, but the second one:
a) Has a place to hide if need be
b) Has a barometer of reactions to the first explanation and can perhaps think of something better

In light of the whole "(dis)honest agreement/support" argument, this is even more significant.

Of couse, my explaining it detail probably just balanced things out nicely.

[xyzzy]

Interesting. I'd like to point out that I referenced a massclaim as something to consider, that *might* be of some use. I think we should eventually mass claim, but the reaction to the idea is interesting. Not right now, though. This discussion is interesting.

[vollkan]

Vollkan, what do you think, did xyzzy really want a massclaim?

I'm not sure I understand the question.

His exact words were:

I propose a massclaim at some point. We'll lynch whoever has the most normal role. Very Happy

Actually, that could be a little dangerous. We don't know what Guardian is planning... >.<

It's unclear

when

he wants the massclaim to occur. He does vacillate at the end, though, and I would not expect him to do so if he actually was demanding we all claim right away.

[Paradoxombie]

For the record, I'm inclined to agree that if we get stuck, deadlined, or deadlocked, a massclaim

could

be very beneficial. But I think part of it depends on how we play from here.

in the meantime:

Vote: Adel

for being against massclaiming and for posting her private answers publicly. Does

your

role make sense? (don't answer, it's just my newly adopted motto)

[NabakovNabakov]

Vote: Paradoxombie

Can nobody tell me

why

a massclaim would be helpful? All I've heard is "It might be helpful at some point" For what reason? I'd rather go into a deadline with confused scum than suddenly enlightened scum.

I've already given two reasons why massclaiming would be a stupid idea. Could something happen in the game that invalidates or overpowers my reasons? Probably (both hinge on this game's unpredictability in the first place), but that's beside the point. The point is that nobody has refuted my reasons or provided any why masscliaming would be a good idea. Why is it therefore acceptable to vote somebody because they think that massclaiming isn't a good idea!?

[Paradoxombie]

I'll answer if you answer a question of mine. Why did you ignore the first 5 people who voted before me?

[NabakovNabakov]

I'll answer if you answer a question of mine. Why did you ignore the first 5 people who voted before me?

Isn't it obvious?

They were voting people for

supporting

a massclaim. I think that a massclaim would support the scum, so it would make sense (WIFOM aside) for scum to propose one. I'm unsure as to whether or not voting somebody who supports a massclaim is really the best course of action, but I can definitely understand it from a town perspective.

However, I have yet to see an actual justification for a massclaim, so voting somebody for

opposing

massclaiming makes no sense from a town perspective. How exactly does Adel opposing a massclaim make her scum?

[shaft.ed]

I have a feeling that the pegs may signify something happens to a person when the reach 3 and 5 votes. In order to test that out.

vote: xyzzy

Also for a reference as to why I think suggesting and going along with poor stratagies can be a null-tell please read the first two pages of Open 57.

And

FoS NabNab

for his overly hard pushback of the claim supporters.

[Adel]

For the record, I'm inclined to agree that if we get stuck, deadlined, or deadlocked, a massclaim

could

be very beneficial. But I think part of it depends on how we play from here.

in the meantime:

Vote: Adel

for being against massclaiming and for posting her private answers publicly. Does

your

role make sense? (don't answer, it's just my newly adopted motto)

my role makes sense, but then I am a very lateral thinker.

unvote, vote: Paradoxombie

you suck at playing scum. Learn to build a better case; learn patience so that you can wait for real evidence next time.

[Xtoxm]

Happy with my vote on Adel...

[Adel]

Happy with my vote on Adel...

right, becuase opposing a massclaim on the first page of day 1 is a sure sign of scum...

How could I have been so dumb?

[NabakovNabakov]

And

FoS NabNab

for his overly hard pushback of the claim supporters.

I'll push back against bullshit, and I definitely smell bullshit amongst the claim supporters. So far, the best I've gotten out of them is When. I'm looking for the

Why

. There certainly is one; nobody does anything without a Why. I just suspect that at least a few of them wouldn't be comfortable sharing their Why with the entire town.

I think you need to recalibrate your threashold for "hard". Voting someone for something you see as suspicious and stating your reasons is acceptably hard. Joining the biggest bandwagon just to see what happens is not.

[Adel]

Interesting choice of words, Adel. Are you agreeing with Hasd or telling him he is full of crap?

I was agreeing with him. xyzzy is less scummy than xtoxm. By the same logic, Paradoxzombie is even more scummy than either of them for being the last to the party, and for being the most vocal recently.

[Xtoxm]

And

FoS NabNab

for his overly hard pushback of the claim supporters.

I'll push back against bullshit, and I definitely smell bullshit amongst the claim supporters. So far, the best I've gotten out of them is When. I'm looking for the

Why

. There certainly is one; nobody does anything without a Why. I just suspect that at least a few of them wouldn't be comfortable sharing their Why with the entire town.

I think you need to recalibrate your threashold for "hard". Voting someone for something you see as suspicious and stating your reasons is acceptably hard. Joining the biggest bandwagon just to see what happens is not.

Why? To try and figure out who scum are ofcourse.

I guess they could have safeclaims, hadn't thought of it. Anyway I think all the claim supporters are town.