Mini 560: Methodical Mafia 2 -- GAME OVER

[Nocmen]

Opie, ShyGuy, and Yos: Why should I think you are town?

opie and yos, I am waiting on responses from this before submitting my new ballot.

[Yosarian2]

Opie, ShyGuy, and Yos: Why should I think you are town?

opie and yos, I am waiting on responses from this before submitting my new ballot.

Um...because I am? How do you expect me to answer a question like that?

I'd like to think I've been active and trying to help the town, trying to figure out people's alignments and such. I donno, read my posts and make up your own mind.

[Sarcastro]

Sarc: Bah. Still really no bad vibes from him, but it seems like he's, well, wrong about a lot of stuff. Could you explain why you have Skruffs at the bottom of your list, Sarc? Also, you have VanDamien somewhat low on your list (fourth from bottom); what do you think about him, specifically?

Ugh, I'm not great at explaining why I think people are pro-town. With VD it's simple - I thought his idea of a game-breaking strategy was sincere. He sounded like he thought it was possible and a good idea, which makes him seem rather pro-town. It's not a sure thing, of course, and he's been fairly middle-of-the-road otherwise.

With Skruffs (as well as ShyGuy and Opie), it's just a general consistent feeling of... sincerity? For Skruffs, I think his second post after replacing in had a particularly good vibe, and although his suggestion of lynching the most pro-town players early was definitely bizarre, I think I understood what he was trying to say, and it almost makes him seem more pro-town in a weird way.

Anyone can make good points against Ecto, Shy Guy.

Did you ever stop to think that maybe there's a

reason

for this?

That's not townie, that's someone looking for an easy way to look townie.

So you're admitting that criticising your ideas looks pro-town?

I literally laughed when Sarcastro asked how I could threaten anyone while copying Yosarian2. I laughed because he is clearly feeling threatened, and his last posts, rather than sounding townie, sound like scum falling apart.

Ecto... are you trolling me? In a game thread? I "sound like scum falling apart"? Why? Because I criticised you and your terrible ideas?

Are you even putting any thought into your responses? I'm arguing against what you're saying and your best comeback is that you're laughing at me. That's terrific, Ecto, could you explain why it's so funny? Because as far as I can tell, you're just avoiding actually defending your ideas. Instead, all you're doing is sitting around and insulting me for not agreeing with you.

Grow up and start playing properly. If you think I'm scum, explain why. If you disagree with my criticisms of your ideas, explain why. Insults and illogical statements are not acceptable substitutes for contribution.

[Ectomancer]

I am laughing at you. You're scum. You cant help doing what you are doing, and saying what you are saying. Drives you crazy doesn't it? You could just not say anything, yet you just cant restrain yourself. And damnit, the guy wont even give you a straight up fight that you could "win".
Your actions speak for themselves Sarcastro, and the thing is, people who have played with me before know what your actions are saying, even if they have no idea what I am doing.
You should just focus on getting your scum buddies to the final 3, you wont make it yourself.

[Sarcastro]

Wow, Ecto. I don't even know how to respond to that. Are you trying to troll me or are you just delusional?

You keep calling me scum, but you haven't given anything resembling a reason for why. You say my actions speak for themselves, but as far as I can tell, nobody else in the game agrees with you.

You don't need to give me a "straight up fight [I] could 'win'". All I'm doing is arguing against you and criticising your ideas and arguments (not that you're very willing to post any since I started doing so). I'm not sure how you think mafia is played, but refusing to respond properly to anything I say only makes you look bad.

I don't really care what people who've played with you before think, Ecto, unless they're willing to explain your bizarre, anti-town behaviour. Are you trying to say that what you're doing is a strategy designed to get me to react a certain way if I'm scum? If you're going to make that argument, go ahead and make it, but don't just smugly state that you know I'm scum and that you don't need to explain it to anyone. I don't see how it could possibly be construed as pro-town to try to mystify your reasoning this way.

Seriously, Ecto. Make a real argument or stop talking. It's unfortunate that this game doesn't allow us to just lynch you and get on with the intelligent conversation tomorrow.

[Ectomancer]

You really cant stop responding can you? It's like a disease.

FYI, trying to make it seem "personal" with your troll comments? Really a weak attempt to blunt my statements.

I know how mafia is played, and looking bad yourself doesn't come into it. You find scum. They will reveal themselves through their actions, and

you

continue to do so. That's how you win Mafia.

I'm afraid I wont provide you with a blueprint on how to look less scummy. You'll have to figure that out on your own. It is probably too late for you now though, even if I did explain it to you. You've already made the mistakes.

[Sarcastro]

You really cant stop responding can you? It's like a disease.

No, Ecto, I can't stop responding, because you're behaving in such a ridiculous fashion that I feel like I can't let you get away with it. Yeah, I should probably just start ignoring you, but what can I say? I have a compulsive need to point it out to people when they're acting like idiots.

FYI, trying to make it seem "personal" with your troll comments? Really a weak attempt to blunt my statements.

I'm not trying to make it "personal", and I'm not calling you a troll as an ad hominem attack. That's just really what it feels like: you're making illogical, nonsensical statements for what seems like the sole purpose of aggravating me. I'd love for you to prove me wrong, but you've consistently refused to explain yourself.

I know how mafia is played, and looking bad yourself doesn't come into it. You find scum. They will reveal themselves through their actions, and

you

continue to do so. That's how you win Mafia.

Explain yourself, Ecto. You just keep saying the same things over and over again, and none of it makes any sense. You haven't found any scum at all. Not only have you totally abandoned your responsibilities by proxying your vote to Yos, you're now repeatedly declaring that I'm scum for no reason at all. Until you do, it looks like simple "OMGUS". Going on about how people are scum in the least convincing manner possible and for no discernable reason is not how you win mafia. In case you haven't noticed, nobody else has picked up on whatever super-secret scumtells you think I've committed.

I'm afraid I wont provide you with a blueprint on how to look less scummy. You'll have to figure that out on your own. It is probably too late for you now though, even if I did explain it to you. You've already made the mistakes.

Are you kidding? Is your argument really that explaining why I'm scummy would help me act less scummy, so it's better to just refuse to explain yourself at all? In case you haven't noticed, that's not how mafia works. You have to tell people why someone is scummy. Even saying "it's a gut feeling" is better than actively refusing the explain yourself while comdemning someone as loudly possible.

What mistakes have I made, Ecto? How can you possibly expect

anyone

to take you seriously? Do you think you're being productive? Do you think that you're actually being at all useful to the town? Do you think that your ridiculous statements are convincing

anyone

?

This is insane. It's like arguing with a brick wall, except that it's a particularly stupid brick wall that keeps insulting me randomly. I really should just learn to ignore you.

By the way, I'd appreciate someone else coming in and explaining to Ecto just how illogical he's being, because I get the feeling that no matter how simply and clearly I lay it out, he's going to refuse to accept anything I say, no matter how obviously true.

[Mr Stoofer]

Current ballots

:

[col]

andersonw

Max
Oman
Ectomancer
VanDamian
Nocmen
Opie
Sarcastro
Thesp
Skruffs
Yosarian2
Shy Guy

[col]

Ectomancer

opie
VanDamien
Thesp
Skruffs
andersonw
Oman
Nocmen
Sarcastro
Max
Shy Guy
Yosarian2

[col]

Max

Sarcastro
Ectomancer
Shy Guy
Yosarian2
Oman
VanDamien
opie
andersonw
Skruffs
Thesp
Nocmen

[col]

Nocmen

Shy Guy
opie
Sarcastro
Oman
Thesp
Skruffs
Max
Yosarian2
VanDamien
andersonw
Ectomancer

[col]

Oman

Nocmen
Max
Shy Guy
Sarcastro
opie
Ectomancer
Skruffs
VanDamien
Thesp
Yosarian2
andersonw

[col]

opie

Ectomancer
Nocmen
Sarcastro
Oman
Skruffs
VanDamien
andersonw
Thesp
Max
Yosarian2
Shy Guy

Sarcastro

Ectomancer
Yosarian2
Nocmen
Max
andersonw
Oman
Thesp
VanDamien
opie
ShyGuy
Skruffs

[col]

Shy Guy

Max
VanDamien
Oman
Thesp
Nocmen
Sarcastro
Ectomancer
andersonw
Skruffs
Yosarian2
opie

[col]

Skruffs

Ectomancer
shy guy
VanDamien
Nocmen
Oman
andersonw
Sarcastro
Max
Thesp
Yosarian2
opie

[col]

Thesp

Max
Yosarian2
andersonw
Nocmen
Sarcastro
Ectomancer
opie
Oman
VanDamien
Skruffs
Shy Guy

[col]

VanDamian

Ectomancer
Yosarian2
Shy Guy
Max
Nocmen
Sarcastro
Oman
opie
andersonw
Thesp
Skruffs

[col]

Yosarian2

VanDamien
Thesp
Skruffs
andersonw
opie
Oman
Nocmen
Sarcastro
Max
Ectomancer
Shy Guy

Day 0 will end between

Monday 3rd March

and

Friday 14th March

.

[Ectomancer]

Insults are flowing one direction in this exchange my friend. It is very frustrating being scum, having someone peg you, and being able to do nothing about it, Im sure.

Scumtell.

Continuing to try to make this into something personal, when the sentiments are only coming from you.

Scumtell.

Attempting to manipulate the balloting.

Scumtell.

Im going to work right now, so I dont have time to continue.
Me running out of time on your scumtells...


Scumtell.

[Skruffs]

I think Opie should be in final two. I think Ecto should not.
I think I understand, now that I have done all that, why Shy Guy wanted to focus on the most townie players rather than scum; I believe that my earlier suspicions on Yosarian's badly worded (or at least badly interpreted) "Be suspicious of people changing their votes near deadline" was also aggravated by what I read as attempts, by you, to form a sort of communistic 'voting bloc' without actually going into WHO the voting bloc's ballots would be decided. The game is literally about a voting block; all of us voting each other. So trying to form a majority of the 12 we already have makes it a LOT easier for scum to win, especially if they are IN that voting block; ESPECIALLY if they are the LEADERS of that block. Since I have done all of that, I now understand the importance of the 'voting block' - so that even if someone DOES change their vote after march 3rd, they will at least have MORE resistance to go through.

I'm not sure why you are trying to get me to move you further down on my list, Shy Guy? I believe you were safe all the way to final two, so it seems strange that you would be trying to form a deal with me. While I'd love to be alive when this is over, I don't think I should be in final two *just* because I put some grunt work (BAD grunt-work at that) into breaking the code as we had it. Also; It could have a reverse effect; if I try to snuggle down closer to final two, I believe it would be easier for scum (like Ecto) to rail against it, get me lynched EARLIER, and someone else would take my place. Regardless, it's *my* prerogative to find two OTHER townies, and try and get THEM to final two. At least, that is what it is right now.

I will reiterate that Opie does stand out to me as one of those townies.


@lynching most town player
That's just healthy paranoia there. I think it's a good show of faith for someone who is trying to help the town to offer to be lynched first, to (if scum misleading town) to hinder mafia's chances of making it to final three and (if town) proving as such. Although we only get one shot, it would also make the most pro-town players focus on finding OTHER players rather than trying to explain themselves. (That's also what iffs me about Shy Guy's proposal towards me)

There's no reason to really 'go after' ecto at this point. He's either scum, or bored/sacrificial townie. He's not going to make it to final nine, much less final three, so his own ballot (Which he has himself derided) doesn't matter
and won't affect the game. This, of course, all being his own idea.
In the case that he IS scum, I don't know if Ecto/Sarc are a pair, or if it's honest distancing. Same with Ecto/Yos. It *seems* that Ecto is trying to 'tarnish' the views of other players in the game, one player at a time, while carefully avoiding scum hunting himself. Should we take his 'bait' and be more wary of those he associates with or is his attempts 'genuine'?

Anderson, Nocmen, VanDamien, all of these players need to pipe up or something, they are coasting. None of them make it too far in the game, at this juncture, but I think that their opinions should be more fully fleshed out.

My own opinion is that everyone should be allowed to change their vote counts for the next two days; Scummy changes can be pursued and rectified, and players arbitrarily changing their votelists after March 3rd should be regarded with suspicion UNLESS they have already explained it in an earlier post. There is no reason to be totalitarian, but we SHOULD be Methodical, as the game's title suggests.

[Ectomancer]

Code: Select all

VanDamien
Thesp
Skruffs
andersonw
opie
Oman
Nocmen
Sarcastro
Max
Shy Guy
Yosarian2

[Ectomancer]

I think Opie should be in final two. I think Ecto should not.
I think I understand, now that I have done all that, why Shy Guy wanted to focus on the most townie players rather than scum; I believe that my earlier suspicions on Yosarian's badly worded (or at least badly interpreted) "Be suspicious of people changing their votes near deadline" was also aggravated by what I read as attempts, by you, to form a sort of communistic 'voting bloc' without actually going into WHO the voting bloc's ballots would be decided. The game is literally about a voting block; all of us voting each other. So trying to form a majority of the 12 we already have makes it a LOT easier for scum to win, especially if they are IN that voting block; ESPECIALLY if they are the LEADERS of that block. Since I have done all of that, I now understand the importance of the 'voting block' - so that even if someone DOES change their vote after march 3rd, they will at least have MORE resistance to go through.

Thank you for your support of one of my plays. You now apparently understand the concept of scum having to fight through a voting bloc. As I have no other information on this game (unlike a certain informed minority), with probability on my side, it makes entire sense for

me

to form a bloc on my own, and in a manner of my choosing.
Why do you think there was some rather vocal opposition from select players? Scum quickly realized that if the bloc formed randomly behind town, they would lose, and could do nothing about it. In addition, because town holds the higher percentage of population, the chances of randomly picking town were much greater.
Judging by reactions to Yosarian2 that I'm seeing, I picked correctly.

That's just healthy paranoia there. I think it's a good show of faith for someone who is trying to help the town to offer to be lynched first, to (if scum misleading town) to hinder mafia's chances of making it to final three and (if town) proving as such. Although we only get one shot, it would also make the most pro-town players focus on finding OTHER players rather than trying to explain themselves. (That's also what iffs me about Shy Guy's proposal towards me)

Sound like anyone you know? Some of us are already focused on finding OTHER players, and not bothering to defend ourselves.

I have a question for you. What good will it do you if a player turns up town upon death? You can't go back and alter your vote when you realize they were town and were

right

, or at least

truthful

in what they say.
In a normal mafia game, I could agree with you. In this game, you are using an invalid excuse to lynch someone that you yourself think looks "most townie".
Also, how does putting the "most townie" at the top of the lynch list prevent other pro-town players from having to explain themselves?
Or do you mean, whoever is most townie should simply accept that they are going to die, and should stop forcing other players to defend their vote on them? That way "pro-town" players wont be distracted by having to explain an illogical vote?


Full of holes Skruffs. Put scum at the top of your list, put town at the bottom. That's how you win. Stop trying to outguess the play. You only open the ballot to scum manipulation (though moving the "most townie" to the top of the list, and requesting that nobody even have to explain their vote is scummy manipulation in itself)

[Mr Stoofer]

I have been asked to clarify what I mean by "previous round" in the Tiebreaker rules:

Tiebreaker rules

[12] STV/IRV sometimes requires ties to be resolved. I'll follow the tiebreaker rules below, but it may happen that I need to devise further tiebreaker rules. In that case I will devise an ad hoc rule. I doubt that this will be necessary. (See this post for further details.)
[13] If there is a tie for the candidate with the fewest votes (after I have eliminated all players with no votes), I will eliminate all those with the fewest votes -- UNLESS that would leave just one candidate remaining. In the latter case, I will eliminate the candidate with the fewest votes in the previous round.
[14] If all candidates not eliminated have the same number of votes, I will eliminate the player with the fewest votes in the previous round.

By "round", I am referring to the individual counts, of which there will be several each day. If you look at my simulations, you will see that there were 3 rounds on each day. To resolve a tie, a I will go back to the immediately preceding round and eliminate the candidate with the fewest votes. If I am on the first round of a day, then I'll go back to the last round of the previous day. If that does not resolve the tie, I will go back one more round, and I'll keep going back until I resolve the tie or get to Day 1, Round 1.

I hope that is clear. Don't forget:

[24] If you have any questions at all, please PM me or post the question in the thread.

[Skruffs]

Interesting.
I'll try redoing a new 'run down' tonight...
(Though it would be awesome if there was a java application to do it for us, ti would allow us much more freedom/safety in adjusting our ballots if we have instantaneous results from it)

[Ectomancer]

The Mod was asked to clarify what he meant by the previous round, was that done in thread?

[Skruffs]

Thank you for your support of one of my plays. You now apparently understand the concept of scum having to fight through a voting bloc. As I have no other information on this game (unlike a certain informed minority), with probability on my side, it makes entire sense for

me

to form a bloc on my own, and in a manner of my choosing.
Why do you think there was some rather vocal opposition from select players? Scum quickly realized that if the bloc formed randomly behind town, they would lose, and could do nothing about it. In addition, because town holds the higher percentage of population, the chances of randomly picking town were much greater.
Judging by reactions to Yosarian2 that I'm seeing, I picked correctly.

One thing you seem to be not mentioning is that scum do not have to fight through a voting block if the voting block is aligned with them. Your current play suggests that you are a scum person more interested in 'taking down' other townies more than defending himself; ie I think you have already written yourself off and are now trying to keep one of your scumbuddies in the final three, because you think it works well.

Why did you move Opie, who was in the final three, down to half way? For someone who thinks only scum are going to change their lists, you are being REMARKABLY hypocritical. I don't think it will matter; you are the second or third person gone anyways; but I think it's interesting that the one person in final three of Shy Guy, Yosarian, and Opie who DOESN'T have someone mimicking his vote ballot just got 'docked' by you. Or is it because I pointed out that Opie IS probably town, is that why you have dropped your support for him? Again, whichever reason, you are playing as a suicidal mafia.

As for vocal opposition; well OBVIOULSLY the only people who would have a disagreement with you is scum, ectomancer. You're just so obviously pro town that people are scared of you- and your attempts to keep 'scum' from manipulating YOUR SETUP will only be resisted by the scum that, remarkably enough, all seem to disagree with you.

That's just healthy paranoia there. I think it's a good show of faith for someone who is trying to help the town to offer to be lynched first, to (if scum misleading town) to hinder mafia's chances of making it to final three and (if town) proving as such. Although we only get one shot, it would also make the most pro-town players focus on finding OTHER players rather than trying to explain themselves. (That's also what iffs me about Shy Guy's proposal towards me)

Sound like anyone you know? Some of us are already focused on finding OTHER players, and not bothering to defend ourselves.

Except your definition of 'finding other players' is "discredit any player who disagrees with me", which, while egotistical for you, iresults in a lot of meaningless noise.

I have a question for you. What good will it do you if a player turns up town upon death? You can't go back and alter your vote when you realize they were town and were

right

, or at least

truthful

in what they say.
In a normal mafia game, I could agree with you. In this game, you are using an invalid excuse to lynch someone that you yourself think looks "most townie".
Also, how does putting the "most townie" at the top of the lynch list prevent other pro-town players from having to explain themselves?
Or do you mean, whoever is most townie should simply accept that they are going to die, and should stop forcing other players to defend their vote on them? That way "pro-town" players wont be distracted by having to explain an illogical vote?

I see I hit a nerve.
If mafia are leading the current vote bloc, and are unwilling to be lynched for it, that results in three people being unaccounted for at the end of the game. A mafia who chooses the 'pro town' gambit can very well PUSH for two townies as final two, and simply work on the player to leave at final four to have him as slightly more town than the other two, and then change his own ballot to make one of hte other two go before him, and win. He doesn't have to account for other mafia members because HE's tryign to win.

A "pro-town" mafia player who agrees to be lynched first is making it IMMEASURABLY harder for himself to win; he has to get one of his BUDDIES to final two WITHOUT looking like that guy's buddy and while still being pro town. A pro town player who IS pro town only has to focus on ACTUALLY getting pro town playerse to final two - WHICH YOU yourself have said is easier to do.

Full of holes Skruffs. Put scum at the top of your list, put town at the bottom. That's how you win. Stop trying to outguess the play. You only open the ballot to scum manipulation (though moving the "most townie" to the top of the list, and requesting that nobody even have to explain their vote is scummy manipulation in itself)

You make it sound so easy, and yet you are completely unwilling to form lists of your own, and I think it's because you don't want to give away who your scum partners are. You don't like anything more than totalitarian (YOUR totalitarian) command of the game, and you don't seem to be capable of the idea that there is more voices with opinions than your own. Either that, or you are capable of it, but you find it easier and more profitable for you to stifle them.

Either way, you are scum, you ARE at the top of my list, and your flailing around is only going to wind up getting your partners killed. So continue, please.

[Sarcastro]

Insults are flowing one direction in this exchange my friend. It is very frustrating being scum, having someone peg you, and being able to do nothing about it, Im sure.

Scumtell.

How can "it's frustrating being scum" be a scumtell? I think what you're trying to say is that only scum would react in a frustrated manner at what you're doing, which makes no sense. Pretend for a moment that you're a townie being subjected to your ridiculous claims? How would you react? Probably the same way I'm reacting - getting very fed up with your idiocy.

Continuing to try to make this into something personal, when the sentiments are only coming from you.

Scumtell.

I'm trying to make it into something personal? How? Is it that I'm trying to explain why your ideas and arguments are fallacious and unhelpful? Is it that I'm accusing you of repeating the same garbage over and over with the sole result of getting me more and more annoyed with your blatantly anti-town behaviour?

Please, Ecto, explain how I'm trying to make this personal.

Attempting to manipulate the balloting.

Scumtell.

Wow.

Voting for whom I want to vote

is manipulating the balloting? Why is a set of votes that actually reflects my preferences "manipulation" while a set of votes I put up as quickly as possible is not? Why do you get to set the deadline after which any changes count as "manipulation"? Why, when I've made it clear that I respect your mafia abilities about as much as those of a ham sandwich, would you think it's scummy that I refuse to take (deliberately anti-town) orders from you?

While I'm glad you've at least bothered to make up a few implausible "scumtells", I have to say that it's still not a lot better than "Sarc is scum because I say so".

I'd like to point out that I find it absolutely hilarious that you've now changed your ballot after saying that any ballot changes are "manipulations". Of course, I know that you only did so because you don't want to have to think for yourself, but why don't you have a problem with Yosarian changing his ballot?

Your blind dedication to him is still extremely disturbing. No matter what you say, you didn't pick him randomly. No matter what anybody else says, you seem to take everything as evidence that Yosarian is to be trusted. Why, Ecto? Your insistence is almost dogmatic, and looks more like a case of wishful thinking than anything (assuming, of course, that you're town, which is looking less and less likely to me).

Again, Ecto, I'd really appreciate it if you started playing properly. You could start by making a reasonable, logical case against me instead of acting like a lunatic.

Once again, people, it'd be nice if someone could explain to Ecto that simply yelling that I'm scum for no discernable reason is not good play, regardless of his alignment.

[Sarcastro]

It is very frustrating being scum, having someone peg you, and being able to do nothing about it, Im sure.

You know, the more I think about it, the more this makes me think you're just projecting.

[opie]

Sorry I have been away from the game for a few days. There's been a few upheavals at work.

I'm not sure if I agree with Ectomancer in Post 223 about binding the block. If someone honestly feels that Yosarian, Shy Guy, or myself are scum why should the be penalized by moving us up their lists in order to insure the we are not in the final three. So I stand in agreement with VanDamien, Skruffs, Sarcastro, Yosarian2, and Shy Guy on that issue.

It seems to me Ectomancer that you are statiscally counting on the fact that odds are likely that Yosarian2 and I are town. That does not seem to be a proper (nor fun) way to apporoach this game.

Why do you think Sarcastro is scum Ectomancer? Is everyone who will disagree with you on this issue likely to be scum?

Nocmen, I'm not exactly sure how to respond. I would just invite you to re-read my posts. I'll have to stand on my record. If you think I am scum and have reasons, I'll try to adress those. But otherwise I'm not sure what to say. (Which I basically, Yosarian2's position).

Ectomancer, why is it that you are so sure Sarcastro is scum? And if you are so sure why not move him up on your ballot?

Wait?! Did Ectomancer just change his ballot. Isn't that a sure sign of scum? And did so without any explanation? I'm confused.

I'll probably get slammed that this is a lot of "me too" which I have been accused of in the past but it is basically a running commentary as I was reading through the thread. I'm not going to change my vote because I'm still pretty okay still with my list. And I know that tweaking the list will change the outcome of the game, but I don't have the time to figure out how, so I'll leave it as it is for now.

[Ectomancer]

All of you are inattentive fools (now that's a personal attack there Sarcastro).

My ballot was changed to reflect Yosarian's ballot, as I said it would be.

@opie - Sarcastro is scum. Keep him out of the bottom 6 or 7. Why is he scum? Read him. His only hope now is pushing his partners into the bottom. Keep him high enough in the balloting, and he wont be able to do that either.

If mafia are leading the current vote bloc, and are unwilling to be lynched for it, that results in three people being unaccounted for at the end of the game. A mafia who chooses the 'pro town' gambit can very well PUSH for two townies as final two, and simply work on the player to leave at final four to have him as slightly more town than the other two, and then change his own ballot to make one of hte other two go before him, and win. He doesn't have to account for other mafia members because HE's tryign to win.

A "pro-town" mafia player who agrees to be lynched first is making it IMMEASURABLY harder for himself to win; he has to get one of his BUDDIES to final two WITHOUT looking like that guy's buddy and while still being pro town. A pro town player who IS pro town only has to focus on ACTUALLY getting pro town playerse to final two - WHICH YOU yourself have said is easier to do.

That makes sense. The way you previously phrased it, you seemed to indicate that the

revelation

of him being town was important in some manner, and in a normal game you would be correct, but not in this one

as explained

.
But yes, you are right. It

should

be easier to keep scum out by putting other pro-town players in, than getting himself in.
However, you are wrong in one major aspect here. If the pro-town player is lynched first, their ballot goes to naught, as it is not counted at all.

Continuing to try to make this into something personal, when the sentiments are only coming from you.

Scumtell.

I'm trying to make it into something personal? How? Is it that I'm trying to explain why your ideas and arguments are fallacious and unhelpful? Is it that I'm accusing you of repeating the same garbage over and over with the sole result of getting me more and more annoyed with your blatantly anti-town behaviour?

Please, Ecto, explain how I'm trying to make this personal.

Now

this

is how you make me laugh.

You're acting like a complete idiot.

Get your head out of your ass.

Seriously, Ectomancer, you have no goddamn idea what you're talking about, and it's really getting on my nerves.

So yeah, if you're town, you're being an idiot.

Ecto, stop being foolish.

Ecto... are you trolling me?

Grow up and start playing properly.

Wow, Ecto. I don't even know how to respond to that. Are you trying to troll me or are you just delusional?

Seriously, Ecto. Make a real argument or stop talking.

No, Ecto, I can't stop responding, because you're behaving in such a ridiculous fashion

It's like arguing with a brick wall, except that it's a particularly stupid brick wall that keeps insulting me randomly.

Again, Ecto, I'd really appreciate it if you started playing properly. You could start by making a reasonable, logical case against me instead of acting like a lunatic.

Gosh, you are so right, nothing personal there at all. Not a single ad hominem attack. /sarcasm off

That quote string tells a story of frustrated scum falling apart. Town? I dont think so.

And

I know that tweaking the list will change the outcome of the game, but I don't have the time to figure out how,

so I'll leave it as it is for now.

Very Important Post - bolded for effect - and no, not because I think opie is scum. That bolded part is entirely key to a town win. 1 group knows how to manipulate the ballot properly. It will be better for

nobody

to have manipulated the ballot.

[Sarcastro]

Ecto, are you kidding? Criticising your play is not the same as making it personal. I'm not sure how you could possibly construe "Make a real argument or stop talking" as an ad hominem attack. If I say that you're acting like a fool, it's because

your ideas and arguments are bad

. Is it an insult? In a certain sense, yes, but it's a justified one, because I'm criticising your play. The only thing in that list that comes close to being an ad hominem attack is when I compared you to a "particularly stupid" brick wall, but my intent was to criticise your stubborn refusal to think logically.

By the way, even if they were ad hominem attacks, why exactly do you think that only scum would make them? That's a very questionable assertion.

Your case against me is laughable. "Read him" is not a valid explanation, because if someone is asking, it should be apparent that they personally don't find anything scummy about me. I find it hard to believe that you can't see how ridiculous you're acting.

We know that your ballot was changed to reflect Yosarian's ballot. What I want to know is why you don't have a problem with Yos changing his ballot. You keep glossing over this, as well as all other issues regarding your unjustified trust in Yos.

Again, your ideas of "manipulation" are absurd. Why is voting for the people I think are scum manipulation? This is not fundamentally different from any other game of mafia - the town needs to hunt the scum and update their votes to do so. And yet you seem to be of the opinion that we'd all just be better off sticking with our random votes all game. The scum are

always

better-equipped to manipulate the voting, and that's why one of the ways of catching them is to notice them doing it. Yelling out "nobody touch the ballots, we'll just hope that we happen to have a winning lynch based on our first random reactions" doesn't help anything. It eliminates the town's advantage while not even being guaranteed to eliminate the scum's (the scum are probably already voting in a way that's advantageous to them). It's completely and utterly foolish, and even if it weren't, it would destroy the entire point of the game and turn it into a coinflip.

So yeah, your ideas are bad. You have no logical reasoning behind your assertions. You're unable to back up your accusations with evidence. Are you really telling me you

don't see any of this

?

Please, Ecto. Ask anyone in the game. Ask Yos. Ask whoever you want. There's a reason nobody but you is taking anything you say seriously.

[Nocmen]

Here is my ballot before:
Shy Guy
opie
Sarcastro
Oman
Thesp
Skruffs
Max
Yosarian2
VanDamien
andersonw
Ectomancer

Now, my opinions on who I want to move on the list:

opie- He has showed the most town atttude recently, and I really think he shouldn't be near the top anymore.

Ecto - I don't know where to start. Hes pretty much gone from the person I see as the towniest to one of the scummiest over not much time. His ideas were pretty good before, but it seems that hes gone on a strong offensive after realizing that his scum team isn't going to win anymore.

Sarcastro - While his argument against Ecto is pretty strong IMO, thats the only major town thing I've seen from him. He will be able to move down a little, but not by much.

Yosarian - I don't know really, part of me sees him as a townie, yet at the same time I see him as a really good playing scum. Keeping him right in the middle.

Shy Guy - Seems to have brought some decent arguments to the table, but his responses to others actions are really hard IMO for a scum to say.

Code: Select all

Ectomancer
Oman
Sarcastro
Thesp
VanDamien
andersonw
Max
Yosarian2
Skruffs
Shy Guy
opie[/quote]

Thesp, VanDamien, and andersonw are all upped because they have been lurking a bit too much, and haven't brought anything to the table.

[Nocmen]

I'm retarted:

Code: Select all

Ectomancer
Oman
Sarcastro
Thesp
VanDamien
andersonw
Max
Yosarian2
Skruffs
Shy Guy
opie

[Sarcastro]

Nocmen, could you explain what I did before that's scummy enough to cancel out what you feel is a pro-town action? If you've made a case that I've missed, feel free to point it out.

Also, could you go into a bit more detail regarding Yosarian? You say you'll keep him in the middle, but he's still fairly close to the bottom, and you gave a rather mixed review of his scumminess.

[Yosarian2]

Skruffs, why, exactally, should a pro-town person be willing to get himself lynched? It seems like if you're in a position where you might get to the top 2 or 3, and you know you're pro-town, then if you can stay there that greatly increases the town's chances of winning, right? Or am I missing something?