Mini 545 - The Final Stand Mafia - Dramatic Finish!

[RetroDucts]

Welcome Sierra, eagerly looking forward to your posts.

Also, I've got limited access over the next 2-3 days, but given the pace of this game, that may not be too much of a problem. :D

That said, some prods would be good, I think.

[Sierra]

That took a lot longer than I thought it would. It's pretty late now, so I hope you'll forgive me if I don't go looking back for posts to quote right. I'm going to keep it to a global evaluation of every player. If any questions arise from that, I could look back for quotes at a later time.

I have to say I'm having a hard time finding scumtells in this game. Most posts are well-argumented and convincing. This leads me to suspect that the people who haven't been posting very much are most likely to be scum at this point. These are the people I haven't been able to get a decent read of and thus are likely to be scum by that theory:

OhGodMyLife, killa seven,

Sangy

, TheJiveMachine.

Out of these

four

three, OGML and killa (previously yeahthatguy224) have been mostly inactive, not posting at all. OGML has been posting more day 2; I'm happy with that. I hope killa will follow his example; the few posts that he made ring more like scum than town to me. Unlike OGML and killa,

TJM

has popped up on occasion, but never managed to say anything significant enough for me to get a pro-town or scum feel for him. I'd place him on top of my scum list, but I'll hold my vote until I've had a good night's rest to think it over and hear how everyone else feels about this.

Here's my stand on everyone I haven't discussed yet:

Khelvaster - He came out of his argument with RD looking pro-town. I liked his post 96 in that discussion very much and it raised my suspicions against RD. However, after that issue settled, he hasn't been posting as much as before. It worries me he might be scum trying to lay low now that people can't really accuse him of lurking anymore after such a discussion. My take on him at this moment remains

neutral

.

Mizzy - I'm glad she got accused of having too little analysis in her posts on day 1, because that's how I felt when I was reading. She recovered from that quite well though. At the end of the day she was looking very pro-town to me, mainly because of her careful voting. I think the point made against her speculating about the cop role is very valid, but I don't think it weighs up to her pro-town looking posts so far. My take on her is

slightly pro-town

.

Tarhalindur - He wasn't very active day 1. His posts from that day didn't give me any indication he was scum, but I didn't get a pro-town vibe from them either. I like his posts from day 2 though, although I don't agree with the scumtell he got on Mizzy. My take on him is

neutral

.

Erg0 - I really don't like his WIFOM argument of "Do you really think I would do something that obvious if I was scum?" Still, I think his posts make good sense most of the time and he appears to be scumhunting actively enough. My take on him is

slightly pro-town

.

RetroDucts - As I mentioned in my analysis of Khelvaster, I think RD came out the loser of that discussion, especially because of the part about him trying to setup Khel by asking a hypothetical question. Aside from that, I'm not really happy with his playstyle which seems to mostly be him asking questions to everyone, and answering to their responses with even more questions. It kinda looks like he's just waiting for someone to accidentally say a wrong word so he can lead a case on that. Of course, this could also very well be his pro-town way of catching scum, so I realize it's not a very strong argument. I guess it's more of a gut feeling I have then, when I say my take on him is

slightly scum

.

shaka!! - He made sense in his posting, but never really said anything memorable. At the end of my read I had a pro-town feel of him, but on the other hand I didn't make a single note next to his name. He seems to be mostly agreeing or disagreeing with others, instead of starting accusations himself. My take on him remains

neutral

.

[Khelvaster]

Khelvaster - He came out of his argument with RD looking pro-town. I liked his post 96 in that discussion very much and it raised my suspicions against RD. However, after that issue settled, he hasn't been posting as much as before. It worries me he might be scum trying to lay low now that people can't really accuse him of lurking anymore after such a discussion. My take on him at this moment remains

neutral

.

I agree with you in that I have been lying low. I really don't understand the whole Mizzy thing enough to feel like I'm able to contribute adequately. I am waiting for something to come up that I can either attack or defend. The mizzy stuff isn't doing it for me.

[Erg0]

shaka!! - He made sense in his posting, but never really said anything memorable. At the end of my read I had a pro-town feel of him, but on the other hand I didn't make a single note next to his name. He seems to be mostly agreeing or disagreeing with others, instead of starting accusations himself. My take on him remains

neutral

.

I don't mean to cherrypick your post, but this just kinda grabbed me as I was reading through. I would usually consider the type of following that you describe as a pretty serious scumtell. I had shaka down more as non-commital than sheepish myself, but I'm interested in hearing more of your rationale for considering him neutral rather than scummy.

[shaka!!]

I am planning to catch up on this game, I've just did a cross replacement into a game with 20 pages and have been catching up on that. I've done 10 pages of it. I am going to take a wee snack break and read this game.

[shaka!!]

and the one logical reason why you might have asked about the Cop is that you might be scum trying to draw out the Cop now that the Doc is dead[/i].

You're completely missing the other logical reason I might have asked...because I

made a mistake

. We were picking apart the flavor text, I had a thought, I put it in.

Speculating about a cop is bad, I admit, but considering I didn't speculate on who it might be, and only about its existence or not, and then never took that any further, I don't think it's nearly as bad as you think it is.

Whether it was a mistake or not, it was a bad mistake to make, possibly even scum mistake. Now scum are aware that the cop is likely to be out there and they are probably going to be looking for him a lot more carefully now.

Mizzy, I think if it was any other player I'd probably let the mistake excuse fly, but for some reason I've got you pinned down as a very cautious player, one that isn't likely to make a mistake like that. Am I wrong in saying so?

[shaka!!]

shaka!! - Scum read. He's guilty of IIoA (I'm seeing a lot more Mafia theory in shaka!!'s posts than I am comfortable with) and extremely passive even when he is active, both of which are things which really ping my scumdar. Also of note: Shaka!!'s been arguing with Mizzy since D1, but he's not only all-but-ignored OGML, he actually asked for an OGML prod during D1.

I'm not quite sure what to make of this mainly cause I don't understand most of it. Whats IIoA? Also, where have I used Mafia theory?

How can I be passive if I've been arguing with Mizzy all day? I ask for a prod of OGML because he was in another game of mine and wasn't posting there either. Can't remember if I prodded him in that game or not.

[death_omen]

Prodded killa seven, who mentioned that he would post later tonight on the 15th of February.

[Sierra]

shaka!! - He made sense in his posting, but never really said anything memorable. At the end of my read I had a pro-town feel of him, but on the other hand I didn't make a single note next to his name. He seems to be mostly agreeing or disagreeing with others, instead of starting accusations himself. My take on him remains

neutral

.

I don't mean to cherrypick your post, but this just kinda grabbed me as I was reading through. I would usually consider the type of following that you describe as a pretty serious scumtell. I had shaka down more as non-commital than sheepish myself, but I'm interested in hearing more of your rationale for considering him neutral rather than scummy.

I consider it a scumtell as well. The reason I put him at neutral was that he behaved like that only in day 2, which really hasn't been very long yet. In day 1, he was going after people more actively (Mizzy mainly), so that sortof balanced out his day 2 posts in my judgement of him.


Meanwhile I've gone over TJM's posts again and came to the same conclusion I did yesterday.

First, let us take a look at a late D1 post, courtesy of OGML.

Observe how OGML is trying to have it both ways. He is explicitly supporting the Joubert lynch ("happy that Joubert is being lynched"), but he finds shaka!! scummy for... get this...

supporting the Joubert lynch

. That's a direct contradiction, and that's seriously scummy.

I agree with this part wholeheartedly, largest point against OGML

Vote: OhGodMyLife

TJM, is that the only reason you're voting OGML or are there other things you find scummy about him?

[Mizzy]

Whether it was a mistake or not, it was a bad mistake to make, possibly even scum mistake. Now scum are aware that the cop is likely to be out there and they are probably going to be looking for him a lot more carefully now.

Mizzy, I think if it was any other player I'd probably let the mistake excuse fly, but for some reason I've got you pinned down as a very cautious player, one that isn't likely to make a mistake like that. Am I wrong in saying so?

Firstly, anyone who reads the first post on the thread and sees the lack of roles should, if they give a damn about the game, ponder in their own minds about what we may and may not have. My mentioning a power role was a bad mistake, yes, but I doubt it made the scum go, "OH SNAP! Gotta find that cop that may not actually exist!"

Yes, I AM extremely cautious...but I am also only semi-experienced, despite my post count. I have only ever finished one game on this site; a newbie game. So I can understand why you are on me so hard on one hand, but on the other, I do make mistakes yet. I haven't been around that long, and as much as I read, I am going to make mistakes until I've learned more than what one finished game can teach me.

[killa seven]

ok im here i forgot about this game....

[Mizzy]

ok im here i forgot about this game....

No worries, just please read up on the game and give your two cents on what's going on, if you could We need all the participation we can get.

[Sierra]

Any chance of TheJiveMachine posting this week?

[OhGodMyLife]

Still watching the thread, my access has been spotty this weekend but I'll be able to do a good read and post from work this week.

[Khelvaster]

Prod: Game

[death_omen]

Prodded TheJiveMachine and Tarhalindur.

Deadline Status

: 7th March 2008 Noon (GMT + 12).

[Tarhalindur]

a /prodded will have to do for now, should post more tomorrow

[killa seven]

there is nothing going on here...

[Mizzy]

Killa:

Just because there's nothing going on doesn't mean you sit on your laurels. We've heard so very little from you that it's sad. Contribute or be replaced, please.

[shaka!!]

Mizzy I must say, every time I do a reread to get active again for some reason I find something wrong with, but every time you've managed to shut me up and change my mind.

If you're not town you're very good scum.

[shaka!!]

EBWOP

Mizzy I must say, every time I do a reread to get active again for some reason I find something wrong with your posts, but every time you've managed to shut me up and change my mind.

If you're not town you're very good scum. I'm leaning so far to the town side I'm practically falling on it.

[Mizzy]

shaka:

I'm not sure what to say...Thanks, I think?

All:

I've been quite a while, and I apologize for that, but I

am

dying to hear what killa has to say.

[Tarhalindur]

shaka!! - Scum read. He's guilty of IIoA (I'm seeing a lot more Mafia theory in shaka!!'s posts than I am comfortable with) and extremely passive even when he is active, both of which are things which really ping my scumdar. Also of note: Shaka!!'s been arguing with Mizzy since D1, but he's not only all-but-ignored OGML, he actually asked for an OGML prod during D1.

I'm not quite sure what to make of this mainly cause I don't understand most of it. Whats IIoA? Also, where have I used Mafia theory?

IIoA is the Information Instead of Analysis tell, where a scum player discusses how town and scum supposedly play the game in order to give the appearance of participation without actually scumhunting.

As for posts that I was interpreting as Mafia theory:

<snipped for brevity>

And this. I completely agree. Random voting starts discussion based on various things that happened during the random voting stage, such as someones voting habit or bandwagons etc etc. Random voting gets the game going and isn't often looked upon later on in the game. Random role-claiming could seriously effect the outcome of the game, something as mad as that is likely to get someone lynched. And lets say someone actually goes and role claims that would definitely affect the entire game, although that is unlikely.

The difference is significant.

Oh my God that was the most boring reread I've ever done.

The worst thing is that I can't pick anything up on anyone in this game so far because every quarrel that has been held between people has ended with a friendly hand shake and moving the conversation onto something completely irrelevant.

My word I just realized how scummy of a tactic that would be. I'll reread again and investigate scum distancing and buddying up possibilities when my brain has reformed from its melted state due to the reread I just took.

Glork was highly suspicious of you. Glork is now dead. Seems like as good a place as any to start.

More like full of WIFOM

I try not to read into night kills for this particular reason, you never know what the mafia is thinking and it is often very hard to figure it out. It's all too often that I've seen mafia send the town on wild goose chases using their night kill.

Seriously, how am I meant to defend myself from something like this? "Someone who found you scummy is dead." Um.. Ok.. I didn't do it. Happy?

I would like to hear an explanation from you as to how these posts were game-relevant.

How can I be passive if I've been arguing with Mizzy all day?

There is a difference between casting dirt on a player and scumhunting.

Posts that I interpreted as passiveness:

With all due respect. Not once did I accuse you of being scum, nor claim that what I was typing was some sort of scum tell, in fact I don't think I was even being aggressive.

How ever I can see how you can read it as aggressive. I generally prefer to use colloquialism rather than formal writing, it's more 'me'. For example, when I said pick a fight, to me I don't think anything aggressive or 'asshole like' about it because I am a boxer and I live with that kind of thing everyday. Sorry for the whole aggressive tempo misunderstanding.

If you had waited a little bit longer before posting there you would've found out that I in fact didn't warrant much suspicion on you nor Trebis, which is what I was going to say when I was going to type up my proper response to erg0.

I was merely trying to give the game a push and I wasn't aware that you had been picked on Mizzy, which is why I chose you to spur on.

I do disagree about most of the game being one liners, though.

Oh, and if you are 6 months pregnant you should be resting more rather then playing this silly game. Mood swings are bad for all of us (: Congrads btw.

As for erg0.

I believe Mizzy has already answered it for me, it is very hard to play a game when only a few are involved in an argument. I myself find it difficult to involve myself in a game where a few people are arguing amongst themselves, so I often appear to be lurking.

I believe Trebis was just trying to involve himself in the game as best he could due to him not really being part of any discussions. I would've hit Trebis on it like I did with Mizzy but Trebis was already under fire so I decided I'd see if I could try to get Mizzy posting productively.

Notice that even though he is getting replaced, ever since he has been under fire and part of the discussion he has been posting productively?

So to conclude I believe that both Trebis and Mizzy (and myself and most others) are just having trouble including themselves in the game rather than purposely posting all talk and no action.

This is the scummiest post you have made this game, IMO. That bolded portion? I call BS. You may not have said it in those words, but you were definitely painting Mizzy as scum before this post. As such, as far as I can tell you were attacking Mizzy yet explicitly deny that you think she (or Trebis for that matter) is scum... the logical implication is that you were throwing dirt on her to make her look scummy and then backing off when she called you on it. That, shaka, is a HUGE scumtell in my book, especially as it means that you were claiming that you were NOT scumhunting when pressuring Mizzy (and I'm having trouble buying your interactions with any other player as scumhunting).

The other post that caught my eye:

shaka, you still haven't told me who you think is actually scummy and why you haven't done more to try to get them lynched.

If I had found someone scummy I would be pushing their lynch very hard right now. The reason why I was to settle on Joubert or Killa is because I don't find anyone scummy and in a deadline situation I'd rather go for broke rather then no lynch.

I was really hoping on a reread in day 2 to try and weed out some new information based on the night kills and new information that comes out of the night.

Joubert that post you just made is making this a whole lot harder for me, but with the deadline coming to a close I don't have much choice.

vote: Joubert

So, you still didn't find anyone scummy at the end of D1 despite plenty of attacks on Mizzy and killa and ample time to, you know, pressure suspicious-looking people and try to out the scum? Instead of actually pressuring more people in an attempt to draw out scum, you continue attacking Mizzy (after claiming that you didn't think Mizzy was scum, implying that you thought Mizzy was town) and Joubert (a possible target of convenience in hindsight, and you claimed that you thought HE was town as well), then hop onto the Joubert wagon late.

Furthermore, despite the fact that hopping onto the largest wagon in order to guarantee a lynch is a perfectly pro-town reason for voting, you haul out an argument for your Joubert vote that I consider utter BS. Voting him because you think he'll be useless? That's horrible logic - scumlogic, I daresay.

The final piece of evidence that you're being passive? You've only gone after three players in the entirety of the game, and you backed off of ALL of them... then CONTINUED to attack two of them despite claiming that you thought they were town.

I ask for a prod of OGML because he was in another game of mine and wasn't posting there either. Can't remember if I prodded him in that game or not.

I'll concede this point. I can't really say more because the game in
question (it's Mini 547) is ongoing.

Still, one good response does not make up for your lack of scumhunting.

Vote: shaka!!

[OhGodMyLife]

Real post coming tomorrow. I left the notes on my reread at work, but I'm still happy with my Erg0 vote.

[Erg0]

Reading shaka in isolation, he might not be a bad bet after all. He does spend a lot of time saying "scum do this, scum do that", which fits with what Tar says above. I also found the following post from day 2 interesting:

And as for admitting your post was WIFOM and such, doesn't really matter if you ask my opinion. That's like doing something scummy and then at the end of the post admitting it is a scummy thing to do. It doesn't clear your name.

The last part of that paragraph pretty much reflects what shaka did with his hammer on day 1:

Because I can't see Killa being anything but distracting to us in day 2, same goes with Joubert. I've lynched people for the same reason before if you think that saying this is scummy and you'd like a meta. I'll link you if I have to.

Protip: raising a meta defence unprompted makes it look like you're a little

too

concerned about not appearing at all scummy.

His apparent inability to find anyone at all scummy for pretty much the entire game is a worry as well.

I kind of need to get my head back into this game, so I'll withold a vote until I've done some more re-reading. I just died in a large game so that's freed me up a bit.