PIRATES v. NINJAS! Game Over!

[cicero]

@Thesp - yep. of course I doubt your ability. I hope it's true because then you become a town asset. You as a scumhunter is worth more than you as a day-vig in any event. It will give things you say credibility.

I looked at your responses to MBL and find them inconclusive.

Incidentally, you clearly inferred that this is a one-shot ability when you said "I'd prefer to hold on to my ability" and I think you and we are better off without it.

First, I don't like you having a veto power to bring one day to night over the other players wishes at a time of your own choosing. I don't think your individual wisdom exceeds the collective wisdom of the town, with apologies to Ultima.

Second since it is one shot and since Erg0 is obvscum you have an opportunity to divest yourself of this power and thereby become a vanilla townie. That will take a target off your head. And, to reiterate, I think your analytical skills are worth more than this particular power role.

Finally, I think our collective instincts about Erg0 are right. Your instincts may be wrong later and you would end up killing yourself on our behalf. Or alternatively your fear of being wrong will leave you holding a power that you don't want to use while at the same time it is a power that scum will want to divest you of because of its unpredictable nature. Thereby forcing you to sit under a sword of Damocles for the rest of the game.

Thesp: Vig Erg0 already

It's my best advice.

[Mr Stoofer]

Vote Count

Erg0: 7 (Claus, cicero, Rogueben, The Fonz, Gorrad, Twomz, MrBuddyLee)
Thesp: 2 (ooba, Cogito Ergo Sum)
Kison: 1 (Erg0)

Not voting: 8 (Skruffs, JordanA24, Iammars, mikeburnfire, Flameaxe, UltimaAvalon, Thesp, Kison)

10 to lynch!

Deadline will be ~10th March

As things stand, Erg0 would be lynched at deadline.

[Thesp]

Something else I forgot to mention:

The scummy thing is semantics. Scummy to me means things that are helpful to scum. I didn't use it in a way to suggest gorrad was scum, I used it to infer that he's playing in a way that helps scum more than town. I guess he's bored with the game, since he's confirmed, and that's led to a sedentary, armchair-coaching style of play. No real personal investment.

Ah, I see what you're saying. This makes sense.

@Thesp - yep. of course I doubt your ability.

Why?

Thesp: Vig Erg0 already

Why now?

[cicero]

@Thesp - yep. of course I doubt your ability.

Why?

Why not?

Thesp: Vig Erg0 already

Why now?[/quote]

Why wait?

[Thesp]

@Thesp - yep. of course I doubt your ability.

Why?

Why not?

I can think of a number of compelling reasons, but they're worthless comign from me.

[Kison]

To some real extent, if I listen to "the will of the people" and let that determine my actions, it could be anywhere from 0%-50+% scum-influenced. If I make the choice myself, I know my actions are 100% non-scum influenced (except to the extent conversation in the thread goes, etc.).

You

"know" your actions are 100% non-scum influenced, but how do you expect the rest of us to come to that conclusion? That's why the idea of testing the claim came up in the first place. From the perspective of everyone else, which is the perspective you have to deal with in these kinds of situations, we're dealing with a lynch triggered by a player. Why should we allow that to be used by someone who's alignment we were shaky on to begin with, when we could just as easily force that person to choose who we'd otherwise lynch?

[Thesp]

To some real extent, if I listen to "the will of the people" and let that determine my actions, it could be anywhere from 0%-50+% scum-influenced. If I make the choice myself, I know my actions are 100% non-scum influenced (except to the extent conversation in the thread goes, etc.).

You

"know" your actions are 100% non-scum influenced, but how do you expect the rest of us to come to that conclusion? That's why the idea of testing the claim came up in the first place. From the perspective of everyone else, which is the perspective you have to deal with in these kinds of situations, we're dealing with a lynch triggered by a player. Why should we allow that to be used by someone who's alignment we were shaky on to begin with, when we could just as easily force that person to choose who we'd otherwise lynch?

I know you can't just take me at my word on my alignment. The question is, do you think I'm lying about my ability? If you don't think I'm lying, then me daykilling anyone won't verify my alignment. If you

do

think I'm lying, then why? It doesn't make sense to me, though perhaps it should, and it just hasn't been adequately explained to me why there is doubt about the ability claimed. Can you help me understand here?

[cicero]

@Thesp - yep. of course I doubt your ability.

Why?

Why not?

I can think of a number of compelling reasons, but they're worthless comign from me.

Thesp, all this fencing just further erodes your credibility. There is nothing in what you said about MBL that made me go "Holy shit, he totally IS telling the truth". And if you'll recall the second part of the argument I made - which you have to admit is at least a little compelling (which may be why you chose to ignore it) is that if you are telling the truth you should still use your ability now.

[Thesp]

@Thesp - yep. of course I doubt your ability.

Why?

Why not?

I can think of a number of compelling reasons, but they're worthless comign from me.

Thesp, all this fencing just further erodes your credibility. There is nothing in what you said about MBL that made me go "Holy shit, he totally IS telling the truth". And if you'll recall the second part of the argument I made - which you have to admit is at least a little compelling (which may be why you chose to ignore it) is that if you are telling the truth you should still use your ability now.

I have ignored the second part of your argument because it confirms/denies more about my role than I think I should confirm/deny. Also, aren't you the one "fencing" here? I'm genuinely interested in why you don't believe I have the ability I claimed to have, and you respond with "Why not?" It would be a very odd claim for me to make if I can't back it up. Perhaps in my experience I've seen no more than two times that someone has claimed to have a publically-confirmable role that they didn't actually have - it would be an unusual claim, to say the very, very least.

[Thesp]

But don't let this distract us from RogueBen, who should be next to die after Erg0.

[cicero]

Yeah Thesp I'm totally fencing. If you want to go back and dig out the quotes that prove you can do what you say you do I'll happily respond to them but I'm at work and dont have the time or the inclination to do your dirty work for you. Suffice it to say I read them and remain unconvinced. The heavens did not open up and flood me with the realisation of the foolishness of my ways.

Anyway, since reasoning with you makes you just do the little Thesp Dance I've watched since this game started I'm going to back this up the other way.

Vote Thesp

[Skruffs]

To some real extent, if I listen to "the will of the people" and let that determine my actions, it could be anywhere from 0%-50+% scum-influenced. If I make the choice myself, I know my actions are 100% non-scum influenced (except to the extent conversation in the thread goes, etc.).

You

"know" your actions are 100% non-scum influenced, but how do you expect the rest of us to come to that conclusion? That's why the idea of testing the claim came up in the first place.

Him choosing who he targets results in him being 100% responsible for his actions, town or not. Letting other people tell him what do to, esp if there are scum who want him to kill either vying scum or a townoie to result in his death, results in him not being 100% sure of himself. If he feels erg0 is town, and he is town, there is no way to force him to try and kill two townies. I would say he should not be tested, we know what he claims to be able to do, so let's just let him do it. Erg0's scum buddy(ies) are probably hoping he can't day vig, which is probablay the basis of the 'pressuring' on him.

*rambleramble ramble*

And i'm defending giving him the right to choose even though thesp has been wanting to kill me since basically day 1. stuff THAT in your pipes and smoke it.

[Kison]

To some real extent, if I listen to "the will of the people" and let that determine my actions, it could be anywhere from 0%-50+% scum-influenced. If I make the choice myself, I know my actions are 100% non-scum influenced (except to the extent conversation in the thread goes, etc.).

You

"know" your actions are 100% non-scum influenced, but how do you expect the rest of us to come to that conclusion? That's why the idea of testing the claim came up in the first place. From the perspective of everyone else, which is the perspective you have to deal with in these kinds of situations, we're dealing with a lynch triggered by a player. Why should we allow that to be used by someone who's alignment we were shaky on to begin with, when we could just as easily force that person to choose who we'd otherwise lynch?

I know you can't just take me at my word on my alignment. The question is, do you think I'm lying about my ability? If you don't think I'm lying, then me daykilling anyone won't verify my alignment. If you

do

think I'm lying, then why? It doesn't make sense to me, though perhaps it should, and it just hasn't been adequately explained to me why there is doubt about the ability claimed. Can you help me understand here?

I don't _think_ you're lying about having some sort of daykilling ability, although I realize I

could

be wrong. The larger problem I have comes with accepting that your role is town-aligned. With my having some doubt of the claim itself, and a larger doubt of its alignment, do you not see why forcing you to use your ability begins to look like an idea worth pursuing, especially when you indicate you'd not have a problem using your ability sometime in the future anyway?

[Thesp]

Yeah Thesp I'm totally fencing. If you want to go back and dig out the quotes that prove you can do what you say you do I'll happily respond to them but I'm at work and dont have the time or the inclination to do your dirty work for you. Suffice it to say I read them and remain unconvinced. The heavens did not open up and flood me with the realisation of the foolishness of my ways.

I know you've been uncertain of my town-ness, I can respectfully disagree with that. I'm trying to get the best gauge I can on why people might not believe I would claim a testable ability without actually

having

said ability. (For those of whom believe I have the ability as claimed, but think me to be scum anyway, that's an entirely different question, but I'm curious to know that.) It helps me figure things out, if you wouldn't mind.

And i'm defending giving him the right to choose even though thesp has been wanting to kill me since basically day 1. stuff THAT in your pipes and smoke it.

I know, I think that's been the biggest irony of this day!

[cicero]

He's said he dies if he kills a townie. That kind of dayvig is pretty damn likely to be town, I would say. Also with this character (honourable samurai) think of the flavor reasons for why it would happen, Kison.

If he's a scum daykiller now he can't use his power on a townie without getting lynched anyway so it may as well be true. If we still think he might be scum than his claim is worthless and we should hang him anyway, which is what town was on its way to doing before he claimed.

When town has a suspect claim it does what it can to prove the claim. Generally by saying "prove it" like we did with Guardian. We can't always do that but no matter what the claim is we try to plumb the veracity.

This is no different.

But a few players are now saying lets let him do what he wants with this power until game end. This means: let's just now ignore previous suspicion of Thesp, the fact that it is an odd claim, with obscure flavor, and no really pro-town use (substitutes his judgement for the towns. Robs the town of a lynch opportunity and sends us directly to night, possibly with a second dead townie (him) as collateral damage), nod and carry on.

This seems to me to be a poor tactical choice for town when an excellent tactic is available.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

I think there's a very real chance that you're lying about having a daykill, Thesp. Your roleclaim is otherwise weak and it's not actually beneficial for the town to use that ability if it didn't confim you had it. Frankly, if erg0 wasn't obv scum, there's a good argument for not risking it.

Erg0's scum buddy(ies) are probably hoping he can't day vig, which is probablay the basis of the 'pressuring' on him.

Right. Because we wouldn't just lynch him the next day. That would make too much sense.

[cicero]

Thesp: you keep asking that question so I'll answer it so if only not to be accused of avoiding it.

Guardian claimed a power that he could verify. He verified it too (sorta kinda lets all not get into it we know what happened blah blah blah). Turns out he was scum.

You did a thing that scum often do. Claim an ability with disincentives for testing it.
1) We'll go right to night
2) If I'm wrong I die too.

So you claimed an ability that you COULD demonstrate but really you dont WANT to demonstrate. and really only SCUM would ever really WANT you to demonstrate it and I think I'll just stay alive for a few more days (DELAY MY LYNCH) and maybe demonstrate it for the town at SOME UNSPECIFIED TIME IN THE FUTURE because its important that I don't LET MYSELF BE DIRECTED BY TOWN because town as we know is FULL OF SCUM.

This is scum claim 101, dude. Seen it before. Didn't impress me then. Doesn't impress me now.

(BTW - Editorial Sidenote: you wanna know whose fun to watch making claims like this? Tarhalindur. The shit that kid comes up with. "I am a cop and vig who can dayvig on alternate tuesdays and saturdays but only if there's a full moon and battlemage hasnt typed "lol" yet." Honestly)

Because of your MBL comments and this being a Stoofer game though, I have to accept the possibility that you are telling the truth. So I've also given you very good reasons why if you have the power you claim to have, now is the time to use it. I am not compelled by arguments that you should use such a power with discretion as I've said before.

[Thesp]

Thesp: you keep asking that question so I'll answer it so if only not to be accused of avoiding it.

Guardian claimed a power that he could verify. He verified it too (sorta kinda lets all not get into it we know what happened blah blah blah). Turns out he was scum.

You did a thing that scum often do. Claim an ability with disincentives for testing it.
1) We'll go right to night
2) If I'm wrong I die too.

So you claimed an ability that you COULD demonstrate but really you dont WANT to demonstrate. and really only SCUM would ever really WANT you to demonstrate it and I think I'll just stay alive for a few more days (DELAY MY LYNCH) and maybe demonstrate it for the town at SOME UNSPECIFIED TIME IN THE FUTURE because its important that I don't LET MYSELF BE DIRECTED BY TOWN because town as we know is FULL OF SCUM.

This is scum claim 101, dude. Seen it before. Didn't impress me then. Doesn't impress me now.

(BTW - Editorial Sidenote: you wanna know whose fun to watch making claims like this? Tarhalindur. The shit that kid comes up with. "I am a cop and vig who can dayvig on alternate tuesdays and saturdays but only if there's a full moon and battlemage hasnt typed "lol" yet." Honestly)

Because of your MBL comments and this being a Stoofer game though, I have to accept the possibility that you are telling the truth. So I've also given you very good reasons why if you have the power you claim to have, now is the time to use it. I am not compelled by arguments that you should use such a power with discretion as I've said before.

This sort of response is helpful. Thanks. (I'm not asking questions for

your

sake, I'm asking them for

mine

.)

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Gorrad, cicero is looking townish now.

[Kison]

He's said he dies if he kills a townie. That kind of dayvig is pretty damn likely to be town, I would say.

A townie day vigilante who either can kill scum(which would be the same result as if we lynched scum), or can kill town and die along with them(which would be a

worse

outcome than if we lynched town). I'm really not seeing the

point

of that being given to Town. The only real benefit I can see it having is around end-game or if the town is horribly misled while Thesp magically finds scum with his supercool vigilante investigative powers[the latter is sarcasm for those who can't detect it].

But a few players are now saying lets let him do what he wants with this power until game end. This means: let's just now ignore previous suspicion of Thesp, the fact that it is an odd claim, with obscure flavor, and no really pro-town use (substitutes his judgement for the towns. Robs the town of a lynch opportunity and sends us directly to night, possibly with a second dead townie (him) as collateral damage), nod and carry on.

I agree with this.

In any event, a consensus for an Erg0 death has already been shown.

Vote : Thesp

[Skruffs]

You have to realize that Stoofer is an intellectual;
I think for him the point of the game is the discussion and the speculation, etc, NOT so much loading up town and scum with power roles that help them win. So putting a role in that by it';s definition will cause controversy is par for the course.

That doesn't mean it's a real role though; it may mean that Thesp has a good read on Stoofer's mindwaves.

Mod: Are there Cooties Mafia in this game?

[Skruffs]

disregard that last post, its just being silly. I probably shouldn't post so much while on duty.

[Iammars]

I also think this warrants more explanation:

Vampires generally represent cults. I think he's a cult-immune townie.
That's all I'm saying now.

...

How do we know that there's three groups? How do we know that it's not 2 groups and a SK? Note that we also haven't had a dead ninja scum yet. (Although ninjas are probably scum)

I am also not saying this just based of Erg0's claim.

I think the cat's out of the bag on this one, and any scum who may know more here have already been clued into anything they need to know from your less-than-subtle posts. This warrants explanation

now

, especially since you are asserting a semi-rolebased defense of the popular lynch for the day. (For the record, I don't believe Erg0's claim one bit, but since someone

who has expressed cluelessness about his own role

is suggesting some evidence that Erg0 may be town, it should be heard.)

Firstly, for the record, I know what my role does mechanically, but not flavorfully.

Remember when I mentioned that I expected that there were people who weren't pirates or ninjas? That's because my role deals with vampires too. I'm a Vampire Finder (Abraham Van Helsing)

[Twomz]

I agree with Cicero on the point that if you claim to be able to "prove" your ability, then put off proving it... it's very scummy.

I am willing to run up Thesp today if he doesn't use his Dayvig. We can let the goblins get Ergo, or get him tomorrow.

unvote, vote: Thesp

(Man, I'm just jumping back and forth today >.<).

[Twomz]

Sorry for double post, just noticed Iammar's post.

Wow... FOUR scumgroups? Or is Iammars ergo's buddy? This throws all my logic out the window .

I'm really confused now

unvote

.