Mini #564 - Mafia in Crubtown - Game Over

[thevampireofdusseldorf]

Looks like im popular already, if you would prefer VoD can be used

Vote: vikingfan

In my country viking is a horrible cheep beer.

[thevampireofdusseldorf]

Ok my obsevations so far

windy kirby voted mozsuggs for

giving poor VoD a SECOND vote.

QuantumFruit changed votes and gave a few reasons for doing so

He totally just OMGUS-ed Akonas. Plus, I'm defending my man. (Yes, I'm purposefully embarrassing you, dear.)

Also, he came up on darkdude's dice roll the first time he did it. The dice are never wrong.

And if that's not enough reason, he's in two of my minis as well!

Dark dude saw this as a possible scum band wagon under the guise of joke voting purposeful crap logic.

Cephrir jumps in with

Nobody's trying to bandwagon anyone or engineer anything this early in the game with ulterior motives

Talitha votes QuantumFruit reasons:

4 (joke) reasons? In one post? Looks like overkill in (jokily) justifying the vote.

She just looks a little jumpy to me.

windkirby doesn't seem to think this a big deal and then says sorry if it sounded like he was defending QuantumFruit

zeddicus points out windkirbys vote as a double standard

Then we have Cephrir yet again

Don't try to read into people's random votes. Please. It doesn't work.

And now my thoughts

Quantum fruits votes and reasons attracted suspicion from Darkdude and Talitha
Im not surprised at this as I thought the reasons were overjustifying the vote even with the explanation they were all joke votes and "purposeful crap logic".

The double standard of Windkirbys vote is a valid point but I find the explanation from

First page, zed. I wasn't serious.

And if you really need an explanation, mozsuggs's vote stuck out more to me. He wrote a lot more that PP did, seeming like he was trying to make the fact that he was putting a second vote on VoD more normal.

more interesting

This post to me seems contrdictory, First you say it wasn't serious and then you give a reason that the post stood out more and go on to say mozsuggs post looked as if he was trying to make a 2nd vote appear more normal.

I get the impression you thought mozsuggs vote & post slightly scummy hence the reason for your vote, now to say it wasnt serious that leaves me confused.

Cephrirs comments seem a bit strong and I dont like his last one about reading into random votes. Yes I dont think there is a goldmine you can get out of them but to say there is nothing ("it doesnt work") to be gained form looking at them and "please dont" seems to me like he is trying to quiet things up. A lot of discussion starts form loking into random votes and many people have cast two votes already and imo any vote after the 1st round is questionable even if it is called random or jokey.

So for above stated reasons

Fos:windkirby

Fos:QuantumFruit

Vote:Cephrir

[thevampireofdusseldorf]

I forgot to unvote

mod

do I need to unvote and revote to change my vote?

No, unvoting is optional - Crub

Well looks like discussion is moving along and away from random jokeyness (I wonder who started that). He must be a great person.

[thevampireofdusseldorf]

The posts seem to be dominated by 3 players so far would be nice to hear from some of the others in this game!

[thevampireofdusseldorf]

After all that posting im getting a better idea about certian people.

re:QF

Also, QF, I think your problem is that you feel a need to overjustify everything. Think about what you're saying and whether you really need all those quotes.

Overjustify was the word I used to describe her four reason joke vote post.
I see QFs long posts heavy quoting and justifications as more indicitive of her style and not necessasarily of her alignment. The above stated things does give the impression of a post of large size but thin content.
I will have to watch QF closely to work out style from alignment, that said

IGMEOY:QF

re:Defensiveness

A question for all: Is being "defensive" a sign of scumminess? And where do you draw the line between answering people's concerns and being "defensive"?

Being defensive is a natural reaction for both town and mafia and I think either alignment can be called up on being too defensive. The big difference is in the fact that mafia have much more to be defensive about than town. Im not sure I can make a general statement about it as a sign of scumminess as I believe each case (of defensiveness) has to be viewed in its context. To use it as a main argument without surporting evidence I would find this as more of a scum tell..............that said I will look at WK (windkirby)

re:WK

I would first like to look at the vote which first bought suspicion onto WK:

zeddicus points out the double standard of the vote
wk replies "I wasn't serious & if you really need an explanation the vote stood out more."
(ok @wk to say it wasn't serious then if you realy need an exlanation is not a great way of saying things, I believe you (we all) knew saying I wasn't serious wasn't going to hold up but to add "if you realy need an explanation" that is just going to look bad as if you fabricated the explanation or you lied about not being serious)
with that said I dont find it surprising that zeddicus then attacks the explanation given by wk
I also note the explanation (more interesting than the vote)
QF is dissmisive of this and Talitha is also mostly dissmisive
After two players and 3 post focusing on the vote/reasons wk replies in post 66

I figured that if I just said "I wasn't serious" he would've kept persisting about it, as it was already pretty obvious that it wasn't anything too serious. What happened was that I looked at mozsugg's vote and thought it was like maybe a 2/10 on my scum-o-meter, which I felt was good enough for a jokevote (I like to have some sort of miniscule reason, even if it's a dumb one.). Having made my decision, I scrolled down, not paying too much attention to PP's post as it wasn't as lengthy or stand-out-y as mogsuggz's (such a hard-to-spell name!) was. The post may seem contradictory because I provided two unrelative reasons in one post, and I do understand that, but I wanted to make it clear that not only is no one serious on the first page, but there was a slight reason for my vote as well. Basically, I defended myself with two different points. "What? Two different points? Scumtell! Deserves an FoS!" is a reaction that I fail to comprehend.

(I can see this post as defensive but I like the fact that wk can see the reason he attracted suspicion, and I also think that wk has a tendency to overjustify (note post52) as well which can also be interpreted defensive.)

re: Wk & Defensiveness

Reading through WKs post I find him naturaly defensive (and overjustifying), again IMO more indicitive of style than alignment.

On the second page we have WK responding to QFs 4 reason/joke vote with

I'm in two of your minis?! What does that even mean? WHAT DOES THAT EVEN MEAN? :O

At the top of page 3 we have

Hmm... I don't think it's such a big deal, personally. Sorry if it sounds like I'm defending her overmuch, but it's only on the second page. (I would agree if she had done it on the first.)

This to me is overjustified and is already defensive "Sorry if it sounds like I'm defending her overmuch" before anyone had question it.
Both of these are early indications of Wks defensiveness as a part of her style.

So now after the above has occured we get
Cephrir(post 68) saying that that was defensive and votes:wk
zeddicus also sees this as defensive (and has other previous reasons for suspected scumminess) but already has his vote there
darkdude sees this possibility but also says that could be a town freak out
Cephrir mentions overreaction
QF is hesitant in seeing wk as defensive but does allude to it
Cephrir refers to wk post as overdefensiveness
QF makes another stronger reference to wks defensiveness

Now what I can deduce from this is that Cephrir was the 1st to call wk defensive and also to mention it the most, others saw this also but were less aggressive.....
As I have already stated that wk gave tells very early in the game of being defensive I see this move of Cephrir as a scum oppertune move; that coupled with the fact that this seems to be his only real premise to think wk scum as he made no comments on the double standard of wks vote and the contradictory nature of his explanation.

Ok so to finish I have less suspicion on both QF and WK and only more on Cephrir

Sorry for such a long post but I felt the need to clarify some things on the two most high profile people.
I also have things to say about others but will leave that for another post.

[thevampireofdusseldorf]

ok now impresions of 2 more people, this sholud be a lot shorter as both haven't posted that much

darkdude
he seemed to be following others points and suspicions on things but on one occasion he decided to add to his post "this could be just a townie freak out" and decided to not vote...............
now I dont realy see this as too scummy at all. I would rather put it as cautious town and his other post back this up as well. In his posts so far he has picked up on others points mostly (but has addd a few of his own thoughts) and he has not posted a second vote, he has also not posted anything of great length or ferocity.

mozsuggs
seems very quick for action right from the get go a person of few words even fewer justifications (HA a balance to QF & WK perhaps) easily going to attract attention (do mini normals have jesters?) someone to certainly keep an eye on

IGMEOY:mozsuggs

[thevampireofdusseldorf]

I really felt the need to look at both QF and WK for myself as they had both attracted the most suspicion but people were also divided on their opinions about their scumminess & I was also personaly devided. I came to my own conclusion about each as both perhaps targeted for their style more so than their actions. Having such a long post was to show others evidence to support my opinion. But if that is too much for some then my main points were:

I see QFs long posts heavy quoting and justifications as more indicitive of her style and not necessasarily of her alignment. The above stated things does give the impression of a post of large size but thin content.
I will have to watch QF closely to work out style from alignment,

Reading through WKs post I find him naturaly defensive (and overjustifying), again IMO more indicitive of style than alignment.

Im trying to get reads/understanding of how different people play/post at this stage of the game. If I see this as contridictory to the suspicions cast on that player then I will say something.

This is how I read both of these players at this point in the game, it also gives me a better base to judge future actions from them.

Also

I will ask again does a mini normal have a jester?

Shall we just kill someone?

[thevampireofdusseldorf]

Well I think you said it was rather long or something so I thought I could pick out the main points to make it easier for others to get the gist of what I was trying to say. A Mcfiction version of the novel if you like. I am aware some find qfs length a slight issue and have made notes or boiled down points to make things easier.

[thevampireofdusseldorf]

@darkdude Is this your 1st game here?
If I can count right you are only on 3 votes and it takes 7 to get a lynch, as Cephrir has said a vote does not necessasarily indicate someone wants you lynched but they want to get a reaction out of you or they find you suspicious,
To say they are baseless accusations because you dont agree with them is not a good idea unless they really are and in this case they do have reasons logic behind them.
If you are newb town I can see the reaction, (to someone putting accusations pressure & votes) of voting what appears to be a OMGUS as a newb tell more than anything else.

@Everyone
I think we all have a natural resistence to say yes your accusations were correct or that did look scummy but c'mon all players will be called scum or scummy for very valid reason from others and admiting on players points that do have good logic or saying it could be seen that way is by no means signing your own death warrent. You can do that and post a counter argument or point holes in the logic used to come to that conclusion but to simply flat out say things like
"your accusations are baseless", "I disagree", "you are wrong" etc. only leads to long silly debates and personal conflicts.

[thevampireofdusseldorf]

...dragging themselves through the negro streets at dawn looking for an angry
fix,
angelheaded hipsters burning for the ancient heavenly connection to the
starry dynamo in the machinery of night,

@YvonneSeer you have only picked on darkdude thus far. Yes it is early in the game but given your sole focus on darkdude I would like to ask you for a scum rating for him of 1-10 (10 being dirty filthy scummy mafia)?

@zeddicus if you could do the same above that would be appreciated and also what are your thoughts on winkkirby now?

[thevampireofdusseldorf]

ok thanks zeddicus............
wow 7 is rather high for this early, I will agree that darkdude has drawn suspicion to himself but I'm of the more conservative opinion that darkdude is newb town....

You pushed a wagon without adding your vote to it. Major FoS: darkdude I need two votes

(given you said you need two votes and did vote later) isnt this doing the same thing darkdude was originally deemed suspicious for......throwing suspicion on a wagon but not voting?

and re mozsuggs

eager for night?

unvote, vote:mozsuggs

we need to lynch darkdude now.

again you seem guilty of your own accusations against others.

You have cast four votes already two going with what was popular at the time (mozsuggs & darkdude).
The second vote against winkkirby you went with for awhile rather strongly but seemed to change tracks onto darkdude (who also became suspicious of windkirby)when the windkiby suspicion train lost its momentum and the darkdude one picked up speed.

To me this voting behaviour shows eagerness to get to a lynch more akin to scum play than what I would expect from town....add to this the pointed out hypocrisy

vote:zeddicus

[thevampireofdusseldorf]

C'mon guys it seems to me that all has happened so far is jump on the train (of suspicion) jump off the train. These trains have imo been for the most obvious/sketchy scum tells of which I dont have much faith in as an ultimately reliable guide to find scum.
Imo it is far easier for a scum to point out a townie using a scum tell to try and get a lynch than to use a good argument on the behaviour the motivations behind it, maybe im just a little bit disappointed with the way this game is going and the overuse of scum tells on this site as a way of trying to find scum.

[thevampireofdusseldorf]

I feel like I'm walking around with my head up my arse, in a very dark room, just after someone has shouted out "He cant see a bloody thing".

I think you still are in that position mozsuggs and as I see it, it is not viewed as a productive way to catch scum unless of course you have a divination system of casting faeces to figure out who is scum, then that position is totaly understandable.

[thevampireofdusseldorf]

Nice tag moz, Im sorry if you find this game a bit slow people a bit mean and whatever else, my last post was a comment (rather witty imo and sadly no one noticed it) to try and spur you into some action and wow it worked a treat.
I think you still need to learn a lot about this game as you have made numerous mistakes weather you are town or scum, im not to sure at this stage what is more likely.

All this action yay. I have to go out now will post again later today.

[thevampireofdusseldorf]

Mozsuggs I dont feel like reading through all your recent posts just yet, I may go back to look over them for amusment at some stage.
I think your biggest flaw in this game has been the I know im innocent and if I say it enough with enough conviction people might believe me. We have no way what so ever to know your innocent on day one but we can judge this on how you play, your actions, votes, accusations, what you say in your posts etc.

General mind degenaration of syphillis in its last stages seems to be more of a tell for yourself than anyone else. I think you may be far beyond treatment and at this stage your brian will slowly start losing function and you will become unaware of your surrondings what is happing to you and you will die. This is the syphillis virus eating holes in your brain.

My three possibilites for moz
1) Jester (suffering terminal syphillis)
2) Scum (suffering terminal syphillis)
3) Plain ole vanilla townie (suffering terminal syphillis)

My conclusion:
either this illness will terminate him for us or we do a mercy killing
My personal opinion is a mercy killing is the humane way to go

vote:Mozsuggs

[thevampireofdusseldorf]

Guys I didn't realize that that was the hammer, I was having fun with moz, in the whole syphillis joke and was trying to get through to him and appeal to him on his own level and would have been interested in his response as I thought that was the L-1 vote. I expected to take some flak for this, it is my fault for not counting properly.

The scum did a good job on framing me....

What do you mean by this, YvonneSeer was the one to first draw suspicion to you and stay with pressure on you and the only others to really have a go at you were zediccus and viking.

[thevampireofdusseldorf]

Trying to find mafia in mozsuggs death is like trying to find sense in mozsuggs (short) life. I do believe that the mafia wouldn't have had to work hard for a lynch on moz, so they could have sat back and watched, but also given the nature of moz gameplay it would have been just as easy/safe to jump in on a lynch on him.

I find vikings comment a bit strange

After seeing mozsuggs' alignment, I'm not sure about darkdude, especially since it seems that he may be framed by the mafia. It seems like, to me, the mafia were almost entirely sitting back and letting mozsuggs commit suicide (which is basically what he did).

Given that of those left not on the moz vote are only three: Pink Puppy, darkdude, Talitha, and you say you are not sure of darkdude do you have any good reason to be suspicious of PP or Talitha?

[thevampireofdusseldorf]

@Arkonas
As I have said I didnt realize that that was the hammer vote, so If you are making a case out of me for hammering moz then I cant really defend myself better than what I have already said. I can understand being an easy target for this so I dont hold anyones votes against me, but it does sort of seem a bit easy "VoD put in the hammer said he didnt realize must be scum". I think a lot of people thought moz could be scum or at least deserved a vote for the way he was playing, mine was no different but happened to be the hammer vote (unbeknown to me at the time).

[thevampireofdusseldorf]

As I have already stated scummy play/scum tells dont work on their own and favour mafia being able to more easily lynch town. To me you have to look behind these actions and even pro town actions and look at the motivations/reasons for these from a scum point of view and/or a town point of view.
Also comments after the lynch of a townie like these:

(I would here like to state that I was adding in my vote in hopes of the newb's confessional collapse.)

and

But that was not the time. I, for one, didn't want to see him lynched at that point; I didn't have time to unvote beforehand.

hold no more weight than my "I didnt realize that it was the hammer", they are done post event with the knowledge that moz is town, but in these cases niether of them were questioned about there involvment in mozs death and both were pressuring me for my part after I had already exlained my actions.

[thevampireofdusseldorf]

P P I dont think you understand my post properly:
I think using scum tells on their own makes lynching town easier for scum....

I don't so much mind that you put the hammer on mozsuggs... or even that you voted him. I only mind that you were happy to lynch someone without reading all their posts, and that you sounded amused/excited. That attitude seems off to me.

Ok you are approacing your conclusion with the belief that I was aware of the fact that I was lynching moz which sure you are entitled to do but if you view it under the belief that I was unaware then the not reading all of mozs post and being amused take on a different meaning.
It is getting kinda frustrating that all these conclusions are being done on the basis of me knowing I was hammering moz. If the first premise for the accusations are flawed then I can hardly argue with the conclusions.

[thevampireofdusseldorf]

As I have said before I thought it was the L-1 vote, you dont have to believe me but all I am asking you to do is read my post and have a think about it from that point of view. I would hope to get a balanced view on it you could at least do this.

[thevampireofdusseldorf]

darkdude I am not going to claim at 3 votes (hope I can count right now), I thought you might have realized that claiming early (e.g. moz) is not a good idea. You dont even have your vote on me and you want me to claim..........and you say you agree with PP who as I read it never said she wanted me to claim.

PP........I kinda get the feeling you are trying to pressure me into a long defensive post to give you more reason to push your wagon. I also have issues with the way in which you are saying things:

I still feel the same way, whether is was the lyncher or the L-1, whether you knew it was or not.

I will quote myself here for you PP wrote:
I don't so much mind that you put the hammer on mozsuggs... or even that you voted him.

I only mind that you were happy to lynch someone without reading all their posts, and that you sounded amused/excited.

That attitude seems off to me.

Ok you are saying that I was happy to lynch someone not reading all there posts: correction I was not aware I was lynching him
You also say you feel the same way regardless of if it was the L-1 vote or the lynch vote: If you feel the same way regardless try posing a question to me about my post from the L-1 perspective

But I just siezed on VoD because because of how he didn't read all of moz's posts and was acting too jokey

during a lynch

Again you are insinuating I knew I was lynching, I have posted (my first post after moz's death about my actions if there is anything you find specificly suspicious then I am happy to answer it.

It's just that nothing he has said has made me feel any better about him. And he's not really addressing my point that he didn't read moz's posts, or that he seemed to have a joking attitude. He's only saying that he wouldn't have acted that way if he had known it was a lynch, and he didn't realize his vote was the hammer. And that argument is WIFOM because I can't ever know his motivation.

I am not saying that I wouldn't have acted this way if I knew it was the lynch vote, I am saying read it in the context I thought it was posted in, a
L-1 vote.
I know this is tricky as there is no proof to know I was aware or unaware of placing the hammer vote: all I can do is ask you to view it in each case and decide personaly which you believe, saying I don't know or don't care either way is fine but attacking me from a perspective of me knowing it was (a lynch vote) indicates you have already decided.

[thevampireofdusseldorf]

Since I can't expect anyone to do it for me I will have to do it myself:
Here is my post in the way I intended it to be seen as a L-1 vote

Mozsuggs I dont feel like reading through all your recent posts just yet, I may go back to look over them for amusment at some stage.

I'm telling moz I do find his play funny but excessive

I think your biggest flaw in this game has been the I know im innocent and if I say it enough with enough conviction people might believe me. We have no way what so ever to know your innocent on day one but we can judge this on how you play, your actions, votes, accusations, what you say in your posts etc.

I'm pointing out to moz how to convice us of his alignment other than using the whole Im town It's true defence

General mind degenaration of syphillis in its last stages seems to be more of a tell for yourself than anyone else. I think you may be far beyond treatment and at this stage your brian will slowly start losing function and you will become unaware of your surrondings what is happing to you and you will die. This is the syphillis virus eating holes in your brain.

an attempt at a joke but with the tone of it seeming his demise was eminant again to provoke a reaction

My three possibilites for moz
1) Jester (suffering terminal syphillis)
2) Scum (suffering terminal syphillis)
3) Plain ole vanilla townie (suffering terminal syphillis)

im not sure of either and am continuing on the joke by including the jester possiblilty

My conclusion:
either this illness will terminate him for us or we do a mercy killing
My personal opinion is a mercy killing is the humane way to go
vote:Mozsuggs

I'm placing the L-1 vote in the same already started joke manner for mozs benifit and was interested to see how he took it...would he collapse his defense, admit to being scum, use my points to form a better defence

Thats as best a defence as I can give on the whole issue,
If you guys still have any questions about this post in particular that you feel have not been answered than shoot as I'm happy to answer them, as I find most of the suspicion that has been generated against me has come from speculation as to my motives.

[thevampireofdusseldorf]

@Akonas and everyone yes I could have said moz deserved it as that is what a few others I'm sure thought, in fact it might have been easier to argue that, but alas I told the truth, that I messed up and have no way to prove that to anyone.
As for running him up I didn't think it too bad to put him at L-1 considering his previous behaviour, and I was genuinely wishing for a response from him, for me to decide if I thought him town or scum.

[thevampireofdusseldorf]

Darkdude's kind of playing this like a newbie, so I don't know what to make of it. I mean, pushing someone for a claim so early is just plain strange. Then, he decides to vote for VoD as soon as he's told to (so as to be compliant with what seems to be the general consensus) and gain favor and make sure not to look scummy. He's being a little too much of a sycophant there for my taste - to me, a bit of a scum-tell. Because other behaviors on his part are so newbish, though, I don't know what to make of it right now. Any insights, people? I'm just afraid of lynching another newb-town behaving as scum.

QF I think dark dude is very far off from a lynch with one vote while im sitting on L-2, talking about dd in that way is just plain wierd, but as it doesn't hurt to ask what others think of someone:
I see darkdude as very new, following other peoples suspicions, asking for a claim, conforming to what is acceptable (town) behaviour and placing suspicion on people while sitting back.
Now the biggest scum move I believe noteworth is:
Following other peoples suspicions: doing this to blend in not raise to much suspicion and from my point of view to not have to build a case on your own which is harder to do as scum (especialy new scum) than town.
All the other behaviours I think are just as much newb town tells as scum ones.

[thevampireofdusseldorf]

@Y'all

I have admited that I didn't realize that I had placed the hammer vote and I also relize that this is wifom, nobody has blatantly come out and said I believe he didn't realize or I believe he knew he was hammering...but there has been a lot of insinuations to the later......

The sudden hammer without a lot of posting beforehand just seems like eager mafiaman who can't say no to finally being able to get out his gun.

I find VoD just slightly suspicious, again for using jokes for the deciding vote.

I don't so much mind that you put the hammer on mozsuggs... or even that you voted him. I only mind that you were happy to lynch someone without reading all their posts, and that you sounded amused/excited. That attitude seems off to me.

So @ those quoted above are you voting for me because you belive I was aware of putting the hammer on moz and made up the "I didn't realize it was the hammer" as a defence, PLEASE ANSWER! and If you have other reasons/accusations I would like to know so if I havent already explained/defended myself I can do that.

The other two main reasons I have picked up on for my scumminess are both from the moz vote post:
the joke nature of it and the comment "I don't feel like reading all of your recent posts yet".

The joke nature of the posts was directed specificly at moz who as it was plainly obvious he liked to joke around, I also thought others might have a sense of humour (alas my timing was off)
I had skimmed over the post before making mine and that comment was to try and tell moz he was posting too much to his detriment.

So I get the feeling it is these two points taken in the context of a hammer vote that are the reasons for me being voted, and that those voting for me feel happy to run me up to a claim and possible lynch for this.

I think this has all moved way too fast and nobody else has even been seriously questioned. If these are the reasons mentioned above for pushing me on a wagon ride towards lynching then I am inclined to believe that this dubious wagon has some scum wheels on it.

[thevampireofdusseldorf]

"it was an accident" doesn't hold much weight either. It's not much of an explanation, and it doesn't take my suspicion off.

@Akonas: Well, did you want him (VoD) to lie?

I have always claimed I thought it was the L-1 vote (a terrible mistake and I really dont know why I thought that but we all have mental lapses) and I knew it was going to be hard to convince anyone of this but I believed it better to tell the truth about the situation and try my best to defend it than to make up a more convicing defense.

The reason my vote is on you because even if it was a mistake as you said, scum is much more likely to be so irresponsible.

I dont agree with that as a blanket statement: I think both scum and town have equal reason to be cautious especialy around lynch time: scum so as to try and avoid suspicion and town so as to be confident they have got scum.
And you didn't answer my question:

are you voting for me because you belive I was aware of putting the hammer on moz and made up the "I didn't realize it was the hammer" as a defence, PLEASE ANSWER!

So I feel my votees are playing it from both sides:
He might have knowingly hammered and then used the I didn't know as the defense
If he didnt know then it shows he was irresponsible (scum)
Now I see this as unfair, as you can use both contradictory eplanations to throw suspicion on me while refraining from personaly commenting on which one you are more inclined to believe.
No I dont mind looking at it from both perspectives but to point to "evidence" of scummines from both pov's to form a collective body of "evidence" is not legit at all.

That is why I ask those voting me what do you personaly believe.

[thevampireofdusseldorf]

@VoD: I think scum would be responsible with that sort of thing in fear of being called out on it. Scum would get sloppy.

Not sure I get this do you mean scum wouldn't get sloppy?

VoD, I do not believe one way or the other, but I am more inclined to believe that you did not know you were hammering. However, I still think that it's a pretty scummy thing to do to not even check enough to know you're hammering.

Thank you for at least trying to answer my question, but you are still using the double contradictory situation aproach to judge me as scum, basicly judging me as scum regardless of if I knew or not, but saying you are more inclined to believe the view I knew.
The only fair way for me to argue with this is to defend myself from both pov's, of which I have not as that is just plain stupid and would incriminate myself further, yet this is what I face from the prosecution, they have the ability to stay in the middle ground not comiting to either opinion and presenting both cases as suspicious.
I have already presented the best defence I could and have answered all questions/suspicions people have had........now we are just going over the same ground with no real headway. Scum are escaping suspicion with the current attention on this matter and to try and get others to widen their eyes to other people:

vote:Pink Puppy

(I do have good reason for this and it is not an omgus vote but I have a few things to do so I will post more later)

[thevampireofdusseldorf]

@darkdude I dont know what you are expecting from a claim but your pressure for one seems a little strange especialy now I'm at 3 votes, so I will try and outline what would happen in a claim:

I claim vanila townie: this is as good as a no claim as it holds no wieght,
I claim a town power role: this is a more tricky situation, if I do have a power role I am going to be targeted for a nk (especialy wothout a doc), if I do not have a power role I could be doing one of two things, as town I could be covering for the person who does have this power role and setting myself up for a nk as a vanila townie or I could be scum claiming a power role to try and get a counter claim from the real role holder so to give my scum partners a good nk choice.
And lastly the wildcard option is to claim scum: this could be done at a very inopertune time for a joke, (I'm not sure of cases where this has happened and context) but this is very unlikely.

I dont think I have missed something but if others no of any other type of claim.....

[thevampireofdusseldorf]

Is Pink Puppy scum 'V'''''V'

About the nuances....I generally feel that "trying to have it both ways" is scummy, because it signals a person who is molding their suspicions to fit whatever person they want to target. Like they are picking the target first, and worrying about reasons later. Which is what a townie would never do.

I believe this is what Pink Puppy is doing along with a few others "trying to have it both ways". As I have explained.

First accusations against me by anyone were done by PP and were about putting the hammer on in a joke fashion and with a comment about not reading mozs posts.

I explained that I thought it the L-1 vote

This is left to be discussed by others which leads to a few more votes

Then

I do agree context is important though too. I don't so much mind that you put the hammer on mozsuggs... or even that you voted him. I only mind that you were happy to lynch someone without reading all their posts, and that you sounded amused/excited. That attitude seems off to me.

You dont mind I hammered a townie or voted for him but you take issue at the nature of the post (jokey) and (your interpretation of) one line in it. Again you are still insinuating I knew I was hammering by "you were happy to lynch"

Even if you didn't know you were hammering, you HAD to know that a lot of people were voting mozsuggs and he was getting close. That might be the time to like... CHECK to see how many votes the guy has on him.

Now we have a change with ok if it was accidental I will attack you from this perspective. I had already said I thought it was the L-1 vote so I was obviously aware moz was close to a lynch but I had misscounted while skimming over the posts before making mine.

I still feel the same way, whether is was the lyncher or the L-1, whether you knew it was or not.

Now it doesnt matter which is more likely as I'm branded scum either way, either I did know and hammered or I thought it was the L-1,

both of these statements can't be true

; but esentialy it doesn't matter either way because both can be used to make a case against me and combined they make an even bigger case.

Is this not having it both ways.

I feel as if you picked me for the hammer vote and then when the info of me thinking it a L-1 vote came to light and you could not ignore this as a possibility, you claim this is scummy too and then after I defended this It becomes oh well the motivations behind the post are not important both are scummy.

he didn't realize his vote was the hammer. And that argument is WIFOM because I can't ever know his motivation.

Yes you can't "know" but you can make an informed decision based on observations (as others have done) as to what is more likely but as I see it you wish to say I can't know so you can throw suspicion from both points of view.

And a foot note: Given the length and weight of suspicion on myself and the amount of content I have posted in my defence has anything else come to light to add to anyones suspicion, backtracking, contradictions, etc any holy scum tells..........or is this wagon solely beinging oiled on a post done day one?

[thevampireofdusseldorf]

But I do think it really sucks for both of us if you really did just make a mistake and not realize how many votes were on Mozsuggs, and just tried to be funny at an inopportune time. I mean if that's true, it's basically my worst case scenario that I think is low on my scale of probability.

This has been my only defence and yes it sucks and it is true.........one mistake made and all this attention. I think it is fair for me to try and at least convince people that it was a genuine mistake....and if I fail at this I believe I have not done anything else scummy enough since then to merit all this attention, but it looks like at least some people are seeing this and looking at other people too.

And lastly I do find PP's unshakable belief In my scuminess rather off putting but I will try and not let that distract me too much. I guess someone has to be picked for day two's first wagon and I was an obvious choice.

[thevampireofdusseldorf]

PP one last question about all this: your two main points the joke nature and the sentance about not reading all of mozs post how exactly do you see these two points don't make sense in the context of a L-1 vote and make more sense in a Hammer vote?

[thevampireofdusseldorf]

@windkirby
C'mon you can't believe your vote is your only weapon, your only weapon is your brain behind the vote and all other actions you take during the game.

@darkdude If it really was an accident what do you think pushing for more info is going to do? I have been pushed as hard as anyone is able to and as far as I have seen it has gone nowhere so pushing me to claim seems to be a last effort to try and make this suspicion go anywhere. Perhaps leaving this on the backburner as others have done and looking at other people while still keeping an eye on me might be a better choice.

[thevampireofdusseldorf]

@Darkdude
I can't understnd how you think a claim will help. It has been outlined twice now what the likely results or info we will get from a claim would be.
Claim vanila town=no claim/nothing gained
Claim power role=no lynch but a nk on me
or=a counter claim with a lynch on me and a nk on the counterclaim
So to get me to claim would either: a)change nothing or
b)give scum a power role to nk

I can only see your above post making sense if you are happy to take the risk of losing another power role.
Best case scenario would be a vanila town claim but this changes nothing
Middle case scenario I am scum I claim power role and a counter claim is made I am lynched and mafia nk the counterclaimer
Worst case scenario I am a town power role and someone else is lynched and I get nked

Now I have gone and checked things throughly and I see dd is on 4 votes, if I were to vote for dd that would be L-1 (right?), So I would like to give dd some time to explain his actions further before putting him there.
So the next best thing to a vote

BigFoS:darkdude

[thevampireofdusseldorf]

Akonas I know you are a little bit reserved in this game and talitha too oh and zeddicus but would be good to have more input from you all!

[thevampireofdusseldorf]

@darkdude
I had a chace to put an L-1 vote on you that probably would have caused an even greater freak out but I wished to see you expand on your defence first as I know you are new here, you have made some more rather bad plays and you have to be more sorted in your posts and aware of these things.
I agree with you in this:

but my current situation is the result of some accumulation of inexperience in terms of the community culture here in general.

I have not even completed a full game on this site yet but what has helped me to understand this "community culture" is reading through the forums or the wiki. Try reading through some medium sized games and you will get an idea of how this is played.
A good defense when under pressure is to defend yourself from the suspicions people are using to judge you as scum and also try and still look for scum under this pressure. This is a very hard act to balance and takes much practice.

Ok some points others have not picked up on.

More like "Your attack can make any town into scum" but whatever.

Darddude what sort of attack would try and make any scum into town?
Also statements like "but whatever" following a bold statement kinda undermine what you are saying, if you believe in what you are saying then there is no need for such, and if you dont believe in what you are saying there is no need to say it.

It must be the thought of self defense overwhelming my other thoughts, because I fail to see other suspicious people. So sorry can't help town there, until my own mess is cleared. One detail I do see though - Akona's words sound less likely to come from scum than the others.

Well you found people suspicious on day one and me on day two but now you say you fail to see suspicious people...look carefuly over day one and day two I'm sure you can find something, and to say sorry can't help town is very bad. I can uderstand this untill your own mess has cleared but try and balance this.

And lastly you say about Akonas you think he is not very scummy at all compared to others so you obviously think of some "others" as scum or using scummy words, would you let me know if this is sort of what you ment?

[thevampireofdusseldorf]

darkdude do you see now why pushing for a claim prematurely is a bad idea, unless someone is at L-1 or looking very certain for a lynch then there is no need for a claim.
I also a bit baffled by three different peoples comments about roles darkdude mentioning mansons & cop vikingfan mentioning vig and ciepher mentioning cop.
Ive also noted a couple of role related words mentioned by a couple of people, darkdude said I won't try to investigate myself and wk said my vote is my only weapon.
No as I have said earlier I am still new and only know certain aspects of the game so far, I have heard of role fishing but have not been able to find a good definition of it or how it is done/how it works so If someone could eplain this to me more fully that would be great.
I take the role related words from dd and wk to mean respectively I'm trying to say I'm cop and I'm trying to say I'm town, now I can understand wks rather blatant attempt to say I'm town (but it means mostly nothing but seems odd to use role related ideas in a post), I'm really not sure about what darkdude ment by this but I find it very odd.

[thevampireofdusseldorf]

Yeah I ment you sory, well I can understand not wanting to point out power role tells but I find it strange a power role holder would put a tell in their posts or game style, obviously you would not want to give scum a chance to detect this. That is why I found dd's mention of investigate kinda wierd, as in I didnt understand why he would use that word. But I dont see any harm at putting a town tell in your post as scum already know that person to be town (presumably unless 2 scum groups or a sk).

[thevampireofdusseldorf]

Ah vanilla tell yes true that helps scum, sorry bout that. I guess it best to keep all pro town role tells to myself.

Mod

can we get your cattle prod on the bovine rumps of Talitha and zeddicus

Prodded zeddicus, Talitha + QuantumFruit get one more day. - Crub

[thevampireofdusseldorf]

Well it has occured to me that scum can play this put town power role tells in their post if they are setting them selves up for a possible claim, I see that as more likely that a town power role putting them in, also yes talithas lack of decent sized posts does bother me but some of us do have busy lives so I 'm not saying this is suspicious yet.....but if it is an ongoing thing then is very noteworthy, and zeddicus has also been very quiet this game just went back and noted the most activity he has done was on the day moz was lynched......

[thevampireofdusseldorf]

Haha obviously I'm incompetant at hammering Moz is back. But seriously moz you can't post in a game you have been killed in.

Townies don't need to worry about being seen as scum.

Well I can see this as ok in theory in practical usage it doesn't exactly help town win, if a townie does something they know might appear scummy then the are generaly going to be questioned over it and firstly this detracts from focusing on possible real scum and second endangers a townie for a lynch. The only time I would see this of use would be if the pay out was greater than the bet.

Are you afraid of looking more suspicious for similar behavior?

Well yes of course, I am not subscribing to Akonas above idea. But also I am being gentler with darkdude in terms of pressure, in this situation I didn't think more pressure would help and giving some advice on how to play here was good for him and us. Anyone can be lynched for being new and not understanding certain things about the "comunity culture" but if they understand these things and still continue to do wierd scummy things then I think these actions hold more wieght than previously.

Your point about zeddicus is good. The thing that is interesting about him is how he has sort of stopped playing the game since being bandwagoned. He isn't trying to find scum anymore. He's just playing victim. And I have to admit, VoD, you did not do that when you were under pressure.

I dont think I uderstand the bit about him not playing since being bandwagoned, I don't think he has been bandwagoned this game. And I dont get your bit about playing the victim either zeddicus has made one post day two and basicly agreed with different peoples points and said was torn between voting me and dd (the two most suspicious people). The post above post needs some clarification.

The thing I was interested in while being under suspcion was that I had become suspicious of my accusors. Now this I'm sure is natural if you are town and find you accusors arguments and constant pressure rather wierd behaviour or in my case I felt the attention that was being paid to me was too much and the "evidence" of my scumminess was rather light, then how do you try and hunt scum in that person without it apearing as an OMGUS kinda thing.

[thevampireofdusseldorf]

@darkdude on day one I think yvonnes behaviour was an indication of a power role, she only had one suspect and held to that suspect all day one = town power role. Well thats what the comunity says anyways, but you probably didn't know this.
As a side note for my learning benifit and perhaps others: I thought this was more an indication of a cop tell and I can understand it as thus as it is obvious and if there is a doctor they can hopefuly pick it up and know who to protect, but a doc doing this that is very strange?

[thevampireofdusseldorf]

Yeah I get your point I wont push it too far but as I'm new I just wishing to expand my knowledge, but if this is bad for town then I will do it elsewhere.
Also

vote:zeddicus

as a surprise for when he gets back.

[thevampireofdusseldorf]

Your point about zeddicus is good. The thing that is interesting about him is how he has sort of stopped playing the game since being bandwagoned. He isn't trying to find scum anymore. He's just playing victim. And I have to admit, VoD, you did not do that when you were under pressure.

Ah you ment darkdude in your post not zeddicus. Ok that explains things.

Rest assured I'm keeping tabs on this game. If scumtells continue to hide I'll probably contemplate a switch to the offensive.

I see this as the "whack a mole" game if a scum tell pops up you whack it with your hammer, but if they stop poping up you stick your arm down the hole and try and pull them out.
I haven't seen too much scuminess from the very active players (bar darkdude) windkirby, Pink Puppy, QuantumFruit and Cephrir so I would be inclined to believe that scum are either hiding in their holes or doing a good job at being active and avoiding suspicion.

[thevampireofdusseldorf]

...Those who have crossed
With direct eyes, to death’s other Kingdom
Remember us—if at all—not as lost


Bussing as I belive it is scum voting his partner to the point of a lynch, (throwing him under the wheels of a bus) so that they look a lot more town.

So what has happened day two.......I get picked on for being the hammer and darkdude draws suspicion for multiple reasons (most newb tells) and still continues to do the same things he has already done that have drawn suspicion to himself.
We talk about claiming, power role tells, and moles. Talitha says she will post but never does. Zeddicus posts once then goes on springbreak to mexico where the...(well I will leave that up to your imagination). Moz drops back in to say hello and is quickly put back to death. I start ranting as this helps me get a grip of things....................ok done.

Now if I look back on the vote count for moz I am inclined to believe at least one or two scum were in on the vote, and the most inconspicuous places to be are in the middle block 3-5. So we have QuantumFruit, windkirby, zeddicus, as I've said I'm not getting anything too scummy from QF and wk so I will focus on zeddicus pre moz lynch as he has only made one post day two of which I have comented on.

Also just noted windkirby you voted for moz with no real explanation but said if anyone except moz objected you would explain.
Given you said very soon after the lynch:

(I would here like to state that I was adding in my vote in hopes of the newb's confessional collapse.)

Should I take this post event explanation as the truth (sort of like how you take my post event explanation as untruth).

Now back to zeddicus:
I already made a case against him day one post 164, but this was never comented on. I think this still stands as zed joined the moz wagon and on day two his listed suspicions were also with the two popularist movements (wagons) at that time. Also he added his suspicion to both but didn't vote. Again something he used aginst darkdude day one.

[thevampireofdusseldorf]

Mod

how long do you wait until asking for a prod?

3 days + 1 for weekends and leniancy for holidays - Crub

[thevampireofdusseldorf]

Can I have the last word...........seeing as I am the thing in question.
What I see QF has picked up on is worth thinking about.
If I was scum I would have two choices in defence
1. Say it was an accident
2. Defend myself on a concious hammer vote
Likewise I have the same two choices as town
Now this is 4 different possible approaches to this; technically only two but with different motivations behind each.
Given I only have used one defence
not knowing it to be hammer, now motivations behind this (others feel free to comment on this as I can not do this objectivly)
as scum: I guess a WIFOM thing with no way to disprove this
as town: Well honesty I guess would be the biggest thing again hard to prove but this would work not in favour of town
And also it might pay to look at motivations for using/or not the alternative defence (again as above comment if you wish)
as scum: more effort needed to go into a defence on the concious hammer grounds but not that much more as mozs play would help. possibility of a more convincing defence.
as town: given if this was not the case it would be a lot harder to sustain this defence especialy when under pressure. possibility of a more convincing defence.

This is so strange I am the only one going deeply into this issue, in as much an open and objective way I can. This is not another defence post as I have already done that to death. More it is trying to give others some ways of looking at things to come to a reasonable feeling about the issue using logic and reason.

[thevampireofdusseldorf]

Talitha well that isn't exactly what I had hoped for but at least it is something, I have already outlined my thoughts on zed day one and today If you fail to find them I am not going to provide them just for you.
{quote="Talitha"]We can go over all the possibilities until we're blue in the face, but I think we'll only know for sure after the game is over.[/quote]
I'm just trying to provide people with as much information so they can judge my actions for them selves, saying you can only know after the game or after a lynch is lazy play something you acused zed of. Start thinking behind these things you can not know as this is what this game is about.

Roar.

[thevampireofdusseldorf]

Re post 319:
This still stands and I dont like how PP convicted me of being scum, also part of the reason to vote her was to test how strong her conviction of my scuminess was, (was it that strong she would stick to it to the point of apearing scummy herself and/or ignore all other people). From then on her horizons broadened and she said things that made me less suspicious of her. Mod said unvoting was optional so I saw no need to do it.

If someone chooses to be away with out notifying or is forced away from a game I shouldn't just ignore them till they come back if I find them scummy, and looking back over day one and the moz votes I found it a worthy case to put forward.
I doubt he will be lynched while not here and all points are outlined for him to answer when he comes back. Given this also helps people widen there sights to more than just me and dd.

Ok I know you have a busy life at present and three little monsters (kids) must take a lot of time and energy to handle, sorry I seemed harsh but isn't mafia a game where as town you don't know and have to look at actions post votes and find reasons motivations behind these things. I find it kinda wierd I seemed to be the only one doing this about my action. Maybe I have got this wrong but relying on the scum tell bible seems like playing the game paint by numbers with only one colour, black.

[thevampireofdusseldorf]

QF you are right about being hard on talitha but I have not built a case against her nor used her absence from the game as any reason to try and throw suspicion on her. When talitha asked me to explain why I was voting zed when I believed all the reasons/explanations for that had been outlined I got a little angry. The point I am finding issue with is not about lurking but about beeing able to comit enough time to play a game. I am also being lienient with talitha as she has explained her busy life. But if players are ok about people posting very little because they have busy lives this then gives rise to acceptance of limited posting/lurking. How do you tell each apart, and if beeing busy is an acceptable excuse for a whole game then that becomes a credible lurking defence.

[thevampireofdusseldorf]

But if players are ok about people posting very little because they have busy lives this then gives rise to acceptance of limited posting/lurking. How do you tell each apart, and if beeing busy is an acceptable excuse for a whole game then that becomes a credible lurking defence.

I guess this is really a point for discusion outside of this game, I'm not saying this is what talitha is doing and I am pleased she has contributed more over the last few days. But I had cause to worry over day one and the start of day two.

and you guys are telling her that she's lurking and accusing her of being scum.

If you can find me directly accuse Talitha of being scum please quote it for me, this is the second time you have accused me of accusing someone which as I see I have not done. If you feel this was indirect then still please provide a quote or something.
Meow.

[thevampireofdusseldorf]

Ah that quote was in refrence to zeddicus and if viewed in its contex properly,

If someone chooses to be away with out notifying or is forced away from a game I shouldn't just ignore them till they come back if I find them scummy, and looking back over day one and the moz votes I found it a worthy case to put forward.
I doubt he will be lynched while not here and all points are outlined for him to answer when he comes back. Given this also helps people widen there sights to more than just me and dd.

it is hard to see it being directed towards talitha. It looks as if you deliberately pulled that out to fit you case as the second part of that sentance explains who this is in reference too.
And your previous accusation post 416

Darkdude, VoD, why are you guys being so damn hard on Talitha? It just doesn't make sense to me and I find it an itsy bit suspicious. It's like she's an easy target and she'll be gone for a while so then you can build a case against her when she can't argue back. Also the "lurking" - someone's busy so they're DUN DUN DUN "lurking" and they're SCUM. (Obviously I'm being intentionally absurd at this point - it's 1:30 AM.) But yeah, "lurking" is an easy excuse to accuse someone with and I'm just not buying it.

Also if you could illustrate where I tried to build a case against her when she wasn't even here that would helpful.
Your reaction to this talitha thing seems to me to be very protective and emotional not logical at all.

[thevampireofdusseldorf]

So whats next a group hug before the lynching.
All is fine but if an accusation against me is done inacuratey by blinding emotion I will point it out. And QF I can understand your wanting everyone to have an enjoyable game but I think we are all (mostly) grown up and can take a few knocks. IMO ths game has been rather sanitized (bar moz) and friendly comapared to others. I belive the mod has guidelies on what is acceptable behaviour in the game and I expect players to agree to these. Expecting players
to conform to your standards of behaviour/decency/kindness might be a bit too much to ask.

Anyways on a more game related note:

Mod

: can you tell us of zeddicus status.

[thevampireofdusseldorf]

Well thanks windkirby (note I never said wankkirby) I must have confused your gender with someone else.
A player analysis is a very good thing to do as it shows your feelings/thought to everyone in the game and gives others something to look at if they have become narrow minded.

Now my last comment on Talitha and the mean roaring nasty person (me)...

It's basically saying "your analysis sucks" and "stop being lazy rawr." And then he actually said "Roar." in the same post.

Yeah that was pretty much it and It was intended to come across as harsh, I was concerned that talitha didn't have the time and/or concentration to be able to particapate well in this game (at that stage) but from her recent post I am more satisfied. If a roar gets someone to be more active in the game then I will roar, I might also meow and sometimes purr.

Now I'm in a bit of a bind about where to go from here also, there has been a lot of talk but no real direct scum hunting, but this is not all bad as any discussion is better than none. My top suspect is about to be replaced tomorrow which will pose a very annoying situation for me, as a replacement can hardly answer for the persons actions he is replacing.
I remember doing rather indepth player analysis of a few players day one (some thought it too long) and might be able to come up with some thoughts on players I have not yet looked at in the mean time.

[thevampireofdusseldorf]

So those I have not piad due attention to:

Cephrir: His early game made me suspicious, agressive and keen to jump on minor things but I can see this was more to test people than to form bandwagons. He has been active day two but has not given too much to the game (scum huntingwise), but we have been talking a lot about certain issues role claiming, my hammer vote and meaness so active scum hunting has kinda been a little neglected. I am interested to hear more fully your thoughts about who you think is scum.

Talitha: Again someone I was weary about day one. She went five days without posting and her cases against people and votes seemed to be rather brief without much behind them, also the I will post more soon kinda promise didn't sit well with me. I didn't wish to see this trend continue day two as it would make it hard to get a read on her. I tried with asking for a prod (bovine rump) and a roar to get more from her. My day one suspicions have been mostly quenched with her posting over the last few days.

vikingfan:he may be a little light on the posting side but nothing he has said or done has made me that suspicious of him, he seems to me to be playing like a happy little townie.

Akonas: very difficult to get a read on him for me, he is very good at picking up on peoples points that lack logic and he is very quick to point out something he sees as scummy. Another thing is that he has a like of asking many questions of others. Now this looks like a rather active scum hunter using many tricks in the book. So why not pick him as town........well that is what my head says but something in my guts tells me to not be too hasty in this judgement. So I'm left with either model townie or model townie front with a scummy secret.

[thevampireofdusseldorf]

With viking vs talitha it was more a tone sort of thing as I explainded above.
Re: Akonas
Yeah very hard but I guess it is that nagging sort of doubt in the back of your mind the he is too good at town and doesn't let anything slip, makes me want to think of him at town but also to keep a close eye on him.

Also I am genderless and I kinda like it that way.

[thevampireofdusseldorf]

Ha I guess you get a lot of the animal noises from your kids.
And no I dont mind at all seems wierd that most people would just assume me to be male.

[thevampireofdusseldorf]

You dont have to be brilliant to be a good townie and as I have stated my view and it was not so good but too good. but here is my view and also somewhere at the top of the page

he is very good at picking up on peoples points that lack logic and he is very quick to point out something he sees as scummy. Another thing is that he has a like of asking many questions of others. Now this looks like a rather active scum hunter using many tricks in the book

Someone who looks to be doing very well at scum hunting and not appearing scummy. Sort of similar to viking in hasn't posted much but hasn't done anything that scummy looking.

[thevampireofdusseldorf]

[quote="Akonas"]Your coverup/backtracking has been noted.[/b]
Very broad accusation there and going back over the issue in question I find no such thing but if you believe this to be the case please back it up with some evidence.

[thevampireofdusseldorf]

I agree the case is weak and Akonas simple comment I never liked him and Talitha has a good scumdar seem all the more suspicious at the moment.
Wierd I say he hasn't done anything scummy and then he does not sure but Akonas It might help if you explain things a little more than just giving statements.

[thevampireofdusseldorf]

I believe zeddicus is by far more suspicious than viking at this stage. Your cases uses only a few posts on day one to try and say he is scum. And the first argument of one of his quotes being something a smart scum would say to look town is just as likely as something a smart town would say to look town.

My case on zeddicus goes not on quotes of his posts which are easy to take out of context warp and be manipulated but on his behaviour all game, the bandwagons he was on (almost all of them) the speed which he changed his votes, his biggest contribution being while the moz wagon was happening.

Now as for you Akonas

It was mainly just "If a roar gets someone to be more active in the game then I will roar, I might also meow and sometimes purr", which seems to me to suggest that you're trying to suck up... I'm not sure exactly. Just with the whole Talitha thing you're kind of going back and saying "no, I wasn't that mean" in response to QF's complaining about it.

An attempt at humor (with the animal noises) yet agian not that obvious to some.
In post 410 page 17 I said sorry for being harsh to Talitha. In post 417 same page I told QF she was right about me being harsh and explained my reason for this as me being worried about her "beeing able to comit enough time to play a game".
As far as I can see from my post I never claimed I was not that mean, what I was was surprised by QFs reaction to it and what I did respond to was QFs allegations that I was calling talitha scum and building a case against her.

[thevampireofdusseldorf]

Welcome EmpTyger.
Ok now I'm not sure how to deal with this replacement situation but I can only sensibly say that EmpTyger is not responsible for zeddicus actions and can hardly provide reasons for him doing what he did. Now I still have to hold zeddicus actions as scummy but will not use that a sole reason for being suspicious of Emp. Given if Emp becomes suspicous then the wieght of zedds actions will also be taken into consideration.

[thevampireofdusseldorf]

In response to Tyger read post 294.

[thevampireofdusseldorf]

@Darkdude you are right about the idling around at this point at least I know that true for me. My attention has been focused on my other games, I think I did a two hour post last night and hopefuly nailed scum with it. In this one zeddicus was my top suspect so having him replaced does mostly throw the case out the window.
So to be honest I am really at a loss for who to be suspicious of. Today I will look back over day one and see what suspicions went on there to to find something to get me moving.

[thevampireofdusseldorf]

Nice nit picking Tyger, I have just replaced into a game day two and it is very hard to get a read on the whole game and I can understand your nit picking and it does bring up things some people may have missed or overlooked. The comment you find odd was written directly to moz in addressing the way I saw how he was playing. I will give you one quote but you can have a good look over mozs post ifyou wish

No, my entire line of logic is "Fuck off, I'm innocent".

This was my second game I joined I believe and have just finished my first game the other day, so back then and still kinda now I am not sure on what roles are likely in what games and I thought it a genuine possibility that moz could have been the jester.

[thevampireofdusseldorf]

Ah missed something as for the three I have no idea now who exactly I was refering at the time but having a look back I think cephrir QF and windkirby.

[thevampireofdusseldorf]

@EmpTyger: The vote I have on you is left over from my suspicions on zeddicus which I believe are valid but I am leaning on a pro town read from your posts.
I see you have been looking at the thread carefully and picking up on some good points, a lot more than I would expect from a scum. I am presumming you are asking all these questions to help you determine whom you think are scum and you have certainly asked a lot of em. So I would be interested to see where this has led you.

Unvote:EmpTyger

After a reread of the first day and a read through of the last few pages I am suspicious of Cephrir and Darkdude and still uneasy about akonas.
If I have some time later I will post some content about these three.

[thevampireofdusseldorf]

@QF I'm not too sure I understand what you mean about dismissing. I presume this is about me removing my vote from zeddicus/EmpTyger. I am not dismissing him as a possible scum but I have no reason to suspect him from his recent posts and as I said I get a pro town feel from them.

Akonas: I have seen reading back over his posts some interesting interactions with darkdude. Now I dont quite know what to make of them if they are town-town interactions. But certianly I can see them as scum-scum interactions or scum-town interactions. I'm too tired now to do a post exploring this but will try tommorow.

[thevampireofdusseldorf]

Sorry for lack of contribution last few days, I have Glandular Fever so some days I get too tired to even post properly and I dont wish to make half assed attemps at contribution.
So my last train of thought was about Akonas/Darkdude

This starts with Akonas reaction to some of darkdudes posts. At this satge Darkdude is at 4 votes and a few others appearing to be not far from voting either. In response to DDs rather feeble defence we have this:

We don't need you to prove that you're pro-town using the iron fist of logic. That's not what we mean by "defend yourself." Just freaking play the game, and don't use this craplogic crap. It's not just craplogic but lack of logic. I think what's happening here is you're a newbie, you see people attacking you, you freak out and don't know what to do. The difference between you and mozsuggs is that you weren't being an ass in the first place.

Townies don't need to worry about being seen as scum. Try to find who scum is and you will help town win. Worry overmuch about suspicion on you and you will just serve to clog up the works. I don't know whether you're scum or not; I'm getting some scum vibes, but the fact that people are suspicious of you DOES NOT MEAN YOU WILL GET LYNCHED! So just put your head on your shoulders and PLAY THE GAME.

At first read I thought wow could this be a scum to scum pep talk but as I explored this with the following exchanges I got a more scum helping a townie vibe which I will explain. But I think both are possible.

The comparison to moz here to me suggest he is trying to insinuate DD could be town and to cut him some slack. Akonas seems very keen on saying about DD I think him newb not sure scum or town.

His following post seem rather helpful and friendly towards DD not pressuring or attacking which to me seems odd for somone he gets scummy vibes from.

He mentions this which I see a bit strange:

Vikingfan especially seemed completely fine with lynching darkdude, and that bothers me.

Cephrir questions this and the reply is

Taking someone's life should always be serious business. But seriously, though, we don't want to lynch a townie.

Cephrir picks up on and interesting point asking do you know DD to be town.
This I believe could be a scum slip up as Akonas line about DD had been he is newb not sure scum or town. The response is:

No, I don't know he's a townie; I'm suspicious of him, but I'm not sure.

Now Akonas interactions while DD was top suspect indicate to me that either he is scum buddies with DD or DD is an innocent townie and Akonas is wishing to appear helpful and leniant on a suspicious person (whom was looking likey for a lynch) because he knew he would turn up town. Im more looking at the later option here.

[thevampireofdusseldorf]

Ok im starting to feel a bit better so heres my thoughts on the last few pages.

Re: My suspicions of Zeddicus.

First I will give you my explanation as I dont like how you claim I have given him a blank slate, I think it was cephrir who said that.

Ok now I'm not sure how to deal with this replacement situation but I can only sensibly say that EmpTyger is not responsible for zeddicus actions and can hardly provide reasons for him doing what he did. Now I still have to hold zeddicus actions as scummy but will not use that a sole reason for being suspicious of Emp. Given if Emp becomes suspicous then the wieght of zedds actions will also be taken into consideration.

So I have zeddicus actions as reason to hold zeddicus scummy but not to think immediately of Tyger as scum. So thus when he entered the game I watched him to see if he added anymore to my suspicion, but he did not and he has not given me reason to think of him as scum from his actions. My suspicion has never been given up and still stands but it will not come into play unless I have reason to believe Tyger scum from his actions. I wished for zeddicus to answer for his playstyle so I could get a better idea about him. Then him being replaced I could hardly ask EmpTyger to explain zeddicus play style to me.

Re: Post 557

I think only Akonas and Tyger commented on this at all. I found it all very interesting.
Akonas response was

I'm just trying to be helpful so that we don't lynch YET ANOTHER stupid townie.

I'm getting a bit confused here, and again you reference moz in your "YET ANOTHER stupid townie" comment.
For someone who has stated constantly about DD

No, I don't know he's a townie; I'm suspicious of him, but I'm not sure.

you have tried giving many implications that he is in fact town. Im seeing this as all rather wierd: using the line about I dont know about DD, being helpful towards him and making many references to him being town. Something is not adding up IMO.

VoD:
Interesting theory regarding Akonas-darkdude. How would vikingfan fit in to your hypothesis?

Im not sure what you mean as I dont see him being part of any scum dynamics between DD/Akonas.

Re: Cephrir/PP

Post 551 vs 553
I believe town are as likely as scum to have a "I dont know who to be suspicious of" moment and I belive it was a moment with cephrir not a continious thing. I openly admited to having one after zeddicus was replaced. PP 3rd point in 551 makes only some sense because cephrir was quite aggresive day one. Why he is less aggresive day 2 is a valid question. But to me it seems PP thinks cephrir scum and this is the reason. Perhaps this is true but I am not so sure. After being so aggresive and being part of the vote count that lynched a town regardless of alignment I would think a change in style would happen.

Post 569 Windkirby
I see it basicly the same way. I think cephrirs reaction came from PP having a weak case on him.

Post 570 PP
Others were suspicious of zeddicus before he was replaced. I belive that this suspicion was merited. It does appear that Cephrirs case on zeddicus was perhaps not the best and he did make a flase accusation "Go ahead, find me a place where zeddicus "led voting". It doesn't exist.".
Just because someone has a weak case on someone else doesn't make them scum. I belive the cases on vikingfan weak but I am not suspicious of those making the cases.

So I am not buying much of the case against Cephrir from PP. I get the feeling the case is a whole lot of things that could potentialy be construed as scummy but are not great scum tells.

Post 567 EmpTyger.
This is a good point about his suspicions on Akonas without ever really making a case.

@PP
The point about Cephrirs case on zeddicus I am not understanding too well at this stage. I believed zeddicus also suspicious but I am guessing PP you are finding the way in which the suspicion was presented suspicious and then the backing off?

[thevampireofdusseldorf]

I dont know if I am hadling the replacement thing right, but this is the first time I have been presented with having someone replaced in a game I am in, but I am doing what I believe is right. They are seperate entities but they do sahare a common role. So zeddicus played his role in a way that made me think he could be scum and Tyger is playing the same role in a way that makes me think he could be town. If zeddicus was still here I would be pressuring him for his play/actions but I don't see how I can do this with his replacement.
I dont understand how I could do any better.......would you like me to present a case against zeddicus and get tyger to answer to it?

[thevampireofdusseldorf]

Looking at the above vote count if it is right I wonder why PP still has her vote on dd.
I will admit I have had a fluctuating opinion on dd, from new town to new scum. I am really not sure. At times he does very wierd/new/scummy things but then a few post later makes good arguments and looks pro town.
Im also a bit hesitant about supporting a cephrir wagon, I have mild suspicions about him but the case PP put forward as I have mentioned seems to me to be a little thin and stretched.

Just saw the deadline looming threat mentioned above.

I would not like to be pushed into a vote on one out of two people I am not that certain about (like an American Election), I presume the mod would like more talk so I will do another reread and see if there is any thing more perhaps to add.

[thevampireofdusseldorf]

Mod

can you please prod the two love birds, Akonas and QuantumFruit.

[thevampireofdusseldorf]

@Akonas, so you would support a DD wagon at this stage then?

[thevampireofdusseldorf]

Ok I have a decent idea now on who to possibly vote for.
It will not happen yet as I want to try and get some more out of this day.

@DD what was your case on QF from 7 pages and has QF done anything to add or lessen your suspicions?
Has anyone else been slightly suspicious to you in the last 7 pages if so whom?

@Akonas just to help me get a sense of comitment from you how strongly do you belive dd to be scum, a bet of $1-$10 would be helpful.

@Emp I see you investigating some possible "relationships" between players, or thats how it appears to me. Do you have any scum team possibilities you would like to share?

@QF please give us one of those epic posts you gave us day one.

[thevampireofdusseldorf]

QF ^ thank you.

[thevampireofdusseldorf]

I knew there was something that dd mentioned earlier about akonas that I found interesting at the time and I have gone back and will repeat it here for all to view.

Post 348 (when dd was the top wagonee) after the helpful post by akonas.

It must be the thought of self defense overwhelming my other thoughts, because I fail to see other suspicious people. So sorry can't help town there, until my own mess is cleared. One detail I do see though - Akona's words sound less likely to come from scum than the others.

I inquired about this statement as dd was claiming not having any leads on anyone.

And lastly you say about Akonas you think he is not very scummy at all compared to others so you obviously think of some "others" as scum or using scummy words, would you let me know if this is sort of what you ment?

And the response

This is because he's trying to help me play good as town, which is obviously a very pro town thing to do. But this is not subject to as much WIFOM as other obvious pro town actions as I'm in a huge spiral down to the lynching stage already, so a regular scum could have just left me to die without seeming suspicious in any way.

So we have akonas helping dd when he looks the most likely to be lynched and than dd saying that what akonas did by helping him was very pro town.
A couple of things I find wierd about this is that it is certainly not a pro town thing to do if either of them is scum. But dd seems to view it as both of them being town. Then dds logic goes on to say that because if akonas was scum he could have let dd hang himself (as it were). If akonas was scum this was a perfect oppertunity to pick up dd (if town) as a pet.
I am still of the belief that this was dd playing into akonas hands and him (akonas) picking up a pet town (dd). There is still a slight possibility in my mind of them being scum partners but I am more convinced of akonas as scum than dd.
After my pestering of akonas about his views on dd he has rather quickly changed his tune to yeah "dd is most likely scum" and is happy to support a wagon on him. This seems to me to be rather too quick and briefly explained a change from so much typed indecision.

[thevampireofdusseldorf]

@Windkirby I am not liking this insinuation dd could be cop but you trying to say you are not saying he is cop business.
Even though dd was only on three votes there was clear indication from emp and talitha and akonas that they would be supporting a dd wagon.
Also if you are looking at odd patterns of play style I think dd fits the bill on that the most.
Your backing of dds case against QF with a minor occurence on page two is slightly bothersome.
Im sure I could also go back to the start of the game and pull anything out of it from any player to generate slight suspicion.
But thank you for the contribution it has given me much to ponder now.

@Vikingfan would be great to see where you are at.

[thevampireofdusseldorf]

Been awol a couple of days and hmm I am pleased with the sudden pick of of activity.
A couple of things have stood out at me from a quick read.
1. The way in which PP "jumped" on QF. Now I can see this as her playstyle but I am getting a slight scum vibe from it for some reason. Maybe it is just the agression that is used in her posts towards rather small or slight issues.
Anyway this gives me a little concern and a good reason to keep a closer eye on her.
2. The relationship between Akonas and QF in this game. Yes I am aware of some relationship outside of this game but at times I have watched there interactions. Sometimes it is supportive sometimes antagonistic, but this seems to be more comments on how each other "is" as a person and not so much about how they are playing this game. As I thought earlier "I hope there is no conflict of iterest", so I would rather like to hear when each of you get back your thoughts about each others play in this game so far.

[thevampireofdusseldorf]

Well the last few days have at least been of some use, but now we have a deadline approaching and only two real lynch candidates I have to say I will support a DD lynch. My biggest reason for this is that regardless of his alignment I feel he will generate the most useful info/leads for us tommorow.
The recent case against QF does not sit well with me at all even though I do see it has some merit, either it is a last ditch attempt to save himself or to do some serious bussing before a lynch.
Over the last few pages I have come to see DDs playstyle as very questionable in his scum hunting. At peak moments of suspicion on him he seems to pull a case out of nowhere when previously being very inactive at scum hunting. This is the most troubling aspect to me as it shows a reluctance to scum hunting untill it is in his interests to do so.

[thevampireofdusseldorf]

Oh nothing like a deadline to increase activity!

[thevampireofdusseldorf]

@EmpTyger, yeah sorry bout my activity in this game things have been rather busy and I have just finished settting up a new computer. My reasons for not posting as much in this game as others is because that the other games are less brain taxing as it were and I can post quicker in those ones.

@Everyone

I have gone a checked the vote count

and I take it as darkdude being at

L-2

. Is this close enough for a claim or should I put him at L-1 to get a claim?

[thevampireofdusseldorf]

@EmpTyger well if it is good or not it is the truth and as I have had little time and have gladular fever. Anyone whom has had this will know that it wipes your energy levels right down, so not posting in a game which takes more energy to do so was my way of trying to handle my illness.

[thevampireofdusseldorf]

So the claim of DDs does not change much. I guess there are a couple of things people want to hear before deadline or lynch so unless there is anything urgent anyone wants asked from me dont expect me to be posting much, my time and health are rather against me at the moment.

[thevampireofdusseldorf]

Sk or vig are both possible. With two docs I wouldn't be surprised to have a sk.
As for the coments made by PP I am again not liking the instant finger pointing straight after the night scene.

I am most suspicious of QF and VoD. Both didn't vote at all yesterday, which really bothers me. WK actively tried to get us to reconsider DD, but QF and Vod just sat back, didn't vote for anyone, and let the lynch go through.

I dont get what is wrong with not voting. DD was the only real lynch candidate and my attempts to gather more info from the day were of more importance than placing a vote on someone I pressumed would be lynched without my vote as we were in a deadline situation. I said I would support a dd wagon when it came to it but then realised it didnt need my vote for the lynch to happen. To say I let the lynch happpen is true but is that anymore true than those that voted dd? I dont get your point or your case about this. Over aggressive again I am starting to wonder if the whole flame thing with Cephrir was perhaps some sort of cover.

And your last quote of mine actualy says that mafia could have either been active in mozs lynch or could have sat on the wayside and this comment I still hold as being accurate as looking for one type of behaviour for mafia teams to take in a lynch is a bit narrow minded.

Before jumping in with finger pointing I will go back and have a read through of the game from the start.

[thevampireofdusseldorf]

Well I will go out and say it now I have two very strong reads on town players, QF and WK. I will give a brief mention of certain things that leads me to believe this.
WK that whole DD is innoccent thing I cant imagine coming from scum. If he knew DD to be innocent a mild hmm im not sure about this lynch would be acceptable but his huge defence was IMO a good read on DD. WK has done nothing too scummy to have tweaked my scum senses and I am happy to read him as town for from this point untill further notice.
QF is very capable of providing good content and large posts. She was very similar to me around DDs lynch. Not being fully convinced about his lynch and seemingly not wanting to comit a vote. I see this behaviour as style style style not alignment. After being pressured about it there was no crumbling to vote or join in on the bandwagon. I believe that this not moving to follow trends and get out of the spotlight to be a strong indication of town.

So this leaves 4 to consider: Talitha, Akonas, Pink Puppy, Vikingfan.

At this stage I am most uneasy about Vikingfan and I would like to hear his thoughts and maybe a claim in the near future.
So

Vote:Vikingfan

PP I see your style now as the dog that sees something and sinks its teeth in. If the thing you bite wriggles you hold firmer if it relaxes and doesnt fight you let it go. Is this actual scum hunting or more the apearence of scum hunting. I am not sure. The ferociousness with which you bite but then let go is a worry to me.

[thevampireofdusseldorf]

Ok PP you have a very good point about Akonas vote possibly counting, I didn't think about that so for fear of a quick lynch

unvote:vikingfan

.

Now about PP: I am more on my way to formulating an acurate guess as to your alignment but further off about vikingfans. You I can count on posting on your own accord rather frequently to help this process but vikingfan I am a lot further off from having any accurate view. A vote in his direction will hopefuly be useful to me getting closer to his alignment.

As for viking fan it is a question of contribution as the game has gone on his input has grown less and less, as numbers get less chances of being noticed as scummy increase. I have a very uneasy feeling about all this and feel that viking has a night action that has led him to want to fly under the radar. I think L-2 is enough pressure to get something of content from vikingfan.

Having a read through vikingfan the biggest thing that bothers me is his actions about dd. He never brings any real case of substance about re dd but instead makes a few minor points and uses everyone elses more convincing analysis about dd saying he agrees with all this to justify his vote.

That being said, I'm still entirely happy with darkdude and in fact will vote him, for all the reasons already mentioned, both by myself and others. Hanging back, making lame excuses, and so forth. vote darkdude

This I can see as typical fly low mafia tactics of let town do the case building and when things look good slip the vote in. Same sort of bahaviour by him in the moz lynch also has been noted.

[thevampireofdusseldorf]

...

[thevampireofdusseldorf]

Viking after such a long wait for content from you you do not fill me with much hope....I am not happy with your play at all and feel it is time to put the pressure on.

Vote:Vikingfan

You have given a really lame excuse for playing it safe. I feel you have added almost nothing new to the game and thus are most likely IMO to be hiding something.
Using everyone elses arguments is fine as long as you contribute your own to the table and I find you have done very little of this and am not gonna let you off the hook for this.

[thevampireofdusseldorf]

Oh and as a side note happy birthday Crub!

[thevampireofdusseldorf]

Wk have you done a look at all post by user, if you have I find it hard for you to call me out on "playing it safe" in the context I used it more than vf.

And look here....

I'm still entirely happy with darkdude and in fact will vote him, for all the reasons already mentioned,

Wk are you purposely trying to misrepresent my points made or do you not agree with them or do you not understand them.

[thevampireofdusseldorf]

Yes I belive Vikingfan has a night action that might not be a mafia night action but certainly a killing role. As I didn't exactly wish to have to come out in the open and discuss this I tried to pressure him to ruffle his feathers so I can get a better idea about if it is anti town or pro town. My biggest reason for thinking this is this quote from day two.

I'm also not for forcing a claim at the moment. Though, there is this to be considered. Say we find through a claim that a vig is present. Then we can leave the vig alone and lynch somebody else. Then even if the mafia kill our vig (assuming he's telling the truth), the vig can still get a kill off and hopefully kill a mafia, assuming the mod arranges the kill in a proper way. If there is no duplicate kill, then we just lynch the vig. I'm not in favor of forcing any claim, but there are some that wouldn't absolutely kill the town.

Now this IMO shows that vikingfan is aware that there is a second killing role and that this will most likely be revealed after night 2 as doc was killed night one. Thus I believe that vikingfan was setting himself up for a future claim of vig through this post. The fact that we had two dos maybe both active maybe one back up makes it IMO very possible that vikingfan could be a sk. I realy dont know how to move closer to finding out this but through trying to pressure him. Thus my vote and bandwagon.

[thevampireofdusseldorf]

Boo...... I am here just waiting for some activity from my suspect before moving on to other things.

[thevampireofdusseldorf]

Viking is the most important person for me to hear from at this stage others can wait, it is unfortunate he is unable to post as this holds up my input. Others I am not sure why the lack of posting is but I believe that there might be purposeful holding back to bring on a deadline.......not cool if you are twon.