Mini #553: Over!

[crazy_vlad]

After Replacements Vote Count!

Votes required:

7 to lynch

4, Matt_s

-

Talitha, massive, Khelvaster, Coolbot,

1, Coolbot

-

ting =)

Not Voting:

7, Imat, Qman, destructor, Petunho, Matt_S, eljcko, crazy_vlad

hopefully it will start to look like a game now

[Imat]

Ah, finally got the chance to reread CoolBot's posts. His recent posts do seem somewhat...Defensive, would be the proper word, though who wouldn't be when faced with several votes. However, they are not as suspicious as I had first said because he hasn't tried to turn it around onto anybody else, he maintains his own innocence without trying to push blame onto the first person he sees.

Also, rereading his "Bandwagon Hop," he didn't really hop. He had voted Khel originally for the same reason you all did, the Mass Claim. Then, after reading the copious amounts of evidence for and against the Mass Claim, he felt that it wasn't a good idea, but neither was it a scummy idea. When he decided this and then looked at how Matt agreed with this idea but then changed his vote with a rather wimpy excuse, he swapped to Matt, I believe only the second vote on the wagon and probably one of the few with any good reason.

CoolBot, you'd better not be Scum, cuz I just poured through your posts looking for any sign of scumminess and didn't find any. If you are scum, that'll look really bad for me.

Also, I reestablish my

FoS: Matt_S

, his actions all seem very scummy to me, perhaps too much so to just forget about.

[massive]

ting: Do you believe that, in the original configuration of the town, there were only Fellowship Named Roles and Unnamed Roles?

I don't think I'm quite up to skill to play a game with Talitha yet.

[Khelvaster]

ting: Do you believe that, in the original configuration of the town, there were only Fellowship Named Roles and Unnamed Roles?

I don't think I'm quite up to skill to play a game with Talitha yet.

The mod said this wasn't the case.

[shaka!!]

Petunho

replaces GSGold.

[ting =)]

@massive. No. Based on the mod post, I think there were named vanillas, named power, and named scum. And the same for the unnamed.

To me, that makes 6 possibilites for everyone. I've been ticking off most of the people based on which role they'd have most to benefit with their actions. The ones that have me wary are the ones whose actions I can't defend from either a named or unnamed town view, and the ones who've been careful to keep quiet whether they have a name, since their actions could be viewed as either scummy, or towny, depending on whether they have a name or not.

@Imat.
I'm content with my coolbot vote.

His posts were not defensive. And he did not have several votes on him. The most votes he'd ever had on him - was one. There was massive in the begining with a random vote, then khel, accusing him for starting a wagon, and then now me.

Maintains his own innocence without pushing blame?

To get this game moving again, we need a bandwagon. And Khel did present an anti-town plan, so I'm jumping on.

I less comfortable with matt, though. In particular, posts 69 and posts 71 raise red flags for me. He changed his mind from Zyconium to khel for no reason. The post in between was one of mine where I explain my vote on khel, but with emphasis that my vote was there only because there wasn't really anywhere else to put it. Looks like he was just looking for an excuse to put his vote there.

vote: Matt_S

His arguments for voting either of them were weak, and he's been painting them both as scummy. Matt didn't have a wimpy excuse. At the post where he voted, yes, but if you read all his posts before that, he's already made his reasons clear.

And his attack on khel, khel answered most of them already. I could maybe buy that he was just behaving like an unamed town, much like matt, for the whole begining with regards to khel, but that wouldn't explain his matt vote. I could see reasons for a named town suspecting matt, but not an unnamed.

It looks more to me like he waggoned khel, and then once the momentum on khel died down and it was clear that the wagon wouldn't go anywhere, he went on the matt wagon. Maybe it's not the proper term, but I'm calling it wagon hopping.

Also, his was not the 2nd vote on Matt. It was the 4th. Before him was ranger, massive, and khel.

[Talitha]

Hello! Replacing RangeroftheNorth. I will read the thread tonight.

massive! Heh, don't worry... I haven't played much lately myself.

[Imat]

What I mean by Matt's wimpy excuse is that he spent several posts first explaining why he felt Khel was scummy then trying to explain why these actions, upon further thought, were not scummy, yet he jumped onto the wagon anyways and voted, despite having somewhat defended him. To say, with the vote, that he's "Too fishy to let go," seems somewhat contradictory to Matt's previous arguments, so I can see why CB jumped to Matt at this point.

Also, thanks for pointing out the number, it does mean he knew it was a wagon and jumped on anyways. However, as previously stated, I believe he explained his reasoning for hopping.

[Petunho]

Hello everybody! I'll try to read this through today and post my first impresions.

Let the fun begin...

[ting =)]

If anything, Matt's actions would be town. A scum would have hopped on the khel wagon right away. Why would he both defend and attack khel as scum? It reads more like he suspected khel, but didn't want to vote until he was sure. Then everyone started wagoning khel and giving reasons for khel being scum, so he thought that maybe khel really was scum.

I'm sorry, but I still don't see why CB jumped to Matt. Why are you defending him so much anyway? If he had a lot of votes on him and was about to be lynched, I could understand defending him. As it is, he's not really under any pressure. I'm not FOSing you, but I just want to know why.

Also, why are you so convinced Matt is scum? I could understand being mildly suspcious, but you've just confirmed FOSed him. Care to share why? I have him pegged as town, but I'm willing to change my mind if you give me a good reason.

[Khelvaster]

The problem with Matt is that he was going out of his way to avoid voting me, while still trying to get me lynched. This is a massive scumtell.

[ting =)]

Avoiding voting for someone is one thing. Defending someone is another. If all he did was just not vote for you while attacking you, I could buy the Matt wagon. But defend you and attack you? That's completely different from scum attacking someone to bring about their lynch while just calling them suspicous or FOSing.

And I still maintain that his first few posts scream town. I can't see his posts coming from an unnamed scum.

[Talitha]

Wow, the first page and a half is really confusing.. I thought I was reading the wrong game.

unvote: Matt_S

[destructor]

I'm slack. Reread's almost done, but unfortunately I've got limited access for the next 2-3 days. I'll get stuff posted up by Sunday at the latest.

[massive]

ting

: Could you see his posts coming from someone who was unsure of the makeup of the game, but trusted the mod enough not to build the game so it could be broken by a simple nameclaim? Is his townness necessary inclusive of his unnamedness?

[Khelvaster]

Avoiding voting for someone is one thing. Defending someone is another. If all he did was just not vote for you while attacking you, I could buy the Matt wagon. But defend you and attack you? That's completely different from scum attacking someone to bring about their lynch while just calling them suspicous or FOSing.

And I still maintain that his first few posts scream town. I can't see his posts coming from an unnamed scum.

Going out of your from voting someone while trying to get them lynched is an incredibly scummy thing.

[Imat]

Ting, why do you think Matt is unnamed? If he were scum, he'd want to break up a potentially game winning name claim long before it showed his guilt. I believe he rejected the idea of a mass claim on the first page, mere posts after it was suggested. It may not matter to an unnamed scum because they can claim unnamed, not their role, and the claim will, luckily for Matt, die down quickly. However, a Named scum will be just as likely to claim unnamed to move attention from himself. Also, he seemed to want to reel others onto the Khel wagon before swapping with a flimsy excuse, one which I've already explained, onto the wagon himself. He wanted a majority to make sure Khel's lynch went quick. If that doesn't scream Scum, I don't know what does. He wants Khel to burn for trying to oust the Scum right away using what was, at the time, not too bad a plan. We know now that it wouldn't have worked, but neither Khel nor Matt knew this at the time, Matt just seemed to want to end it quickly.

CoolBot, following the same logic, also claimed unnamed. Its possible we've just uncovered two Scum. However, I've convinced myself that Coolbot isn't Scum, a dangerous position to have on any player, so I won't take action on him yet.

In the meantime,

Vote: Matt_S

[Imat]

Sorry, forgot this: This vote was mainly used to get to explain some of the actions Ive discussed, get him to talk.

[Matt_S]

Imat: I said that I could see how Khelvaster was suspicious. I saw that other people also found him suspicious. I voted him. I didn't want to vote him if I didn't think people would be open to my point of view.

Khelvaster: Before I voted for you, what made you think I was trying to get you lynched, other than the fact that I said I found you suspicious?

[ting =)]

@Imat.

If he were scum, he'd want to break up a potentially game winning name claim long before it showed his guilt... [snip] but neither Khel nor Matt knew this at the time, Matt just seemed to want to end it quickly.

Hardly. It will only appear as a game winning claim to the named towns. Unnameds can tell right away it won't. Your mention of named scum claiming unnamed gives me something to think about, but Matt mentions being unnamed long before any of the nameds knew there were unnameds - he was the first. It could be he was named scum who hit upon the bright idea of claiming unnamed, yes. I think it's more likely he was just unnamed wary of a plan that seemed like it wouldn't work.

@Khel.
I agree that going, 'but xxxx is scummy because of yyyyy. You make me suspicious, FOS: xxxxx' is a scummy thing to do. Trying to get someone lynched without actually being on the wagon.

What Matt did, was, 'xxxxx is scummy because of yyyyyy. But then, why did xxxxx do zzzzzz? Scum wouldn't do that... I need to think a bit.' Which I think is not scummy enough to raise a vote for.

@Imat.
If his townness was inclusive of his unnamedness, he would have to be named town. Which he said he isn't. Even if I ignore all that though, he's still exhibited the most suspicious voting pattern. Until I find greater reason to suspect someone, I'll keep my vote on coolbot.

[ting =)]

EBWOP: The last bit is @massive.

[Khelvaster]

I agree that going, 'but xxxx is scummy because of yyyyy. You make me suspicious, FOS: xxxxx' is a scummy thing to do. Trying to get someone lynched without actually being on the wagon.

What Matt did, was, 'xxxxx is scummy because of yyyyyy. But then, why did xxxxx do zzzzzz? Scum wouldn't do that... I need to think a bit.' Which I think is not scummy enough to raise a vote for.

Scum wouldn't do that, he says, but then he went and wanted me to be lynched. That's the prbolem.

[ting =)]

@Khel. Fair enough, but I still don't think the way it all played out is scummy enough for me to be happy with a matt lynch.

[Talitha]

When I first read the early pages of this game I thought that Matt_S came across as town. But then a doubt crept in as I wondered how a scum would react in the situation where someone is calling for a mass claim. It looks to me that it's possible that Matt is scum and sorta panicked when Khelvaster said he thought the town roles were all fellowship characters. Because in that situation a mass claim would be game over for scum. So he he chose to pre-empt it, claimed to have no role, and acted the part from there.

I'm not sure this is how it went down... I just think it's possible. And it (plus the wishy washy vote) makes Matt_S good enough for a day 1 lynch.

vote: Matt_s

[Matt_S]

I agree that going, 'but xxxx is scummy because of yyyyy. You make me suspicious, FOS: xxxxx' is a scummy thing to do. Trying to get someone lynched without actually being on the wagon.

What Matt did, was, 'xxxxx is scummy because of yyyyyy. But then, why did xxxxx do zzzzzz? Scum wouldn't do that... I need to think a bit.' Which I think is not scummy enough to raise a vote for.

Scum wouldn't do that, he says, but then he went and wanted me to be lynched. That's the prbolem.

Voting for a person and wanting to lynch a person aren't necesarily the same. Other than me voting you and saying you were suspicious, what makes you think I wanted you to get lynched?