PIRATES v. NINJAS! Game Over!

[Erg0]

Might as well do something useful now.

Vote: Kison

His post 849 looks very sketchy in light of Kscope's revealed role.

[Kison]

Right, cause', you know, the heinous act of complaining about Billyscope's self-condoned lurking and my game-threatening vote for the Guardian Redcloak magically strikes your scumdar conveniently moments after I give my take on why lynching you might not be such a bad idea after all.

*gets his failure stamp out*

[Erg0]

Meh. Coincidence. I've wasted enough breath refuting bad arguments, I'm just ignoring posts like yours at this point.

Re your post: I've been re-reading since yesterday based on the scum that have been revealed, and that particular post struck me as very scummy. You say yourself that Kscope is playing the way he usually does, and you also say that a number of other players are doing the same thing, yet you still feel the need to FoS him (while he's the leading wagon). It appears to me that you've gone out of your way to comment on him so it doesn't look like you're ignoring the wagon, but you don't actually want to get him lynched. Sounds like something his buddy would do.

[Kison]

Meh. Coincidence. I've wasted enough breath refuting bad arguments, I'm just ignoring posts like yours at this point.

I said both Kalei and Guardian were acting similarly to how I've seen them act in previous games. My FoS was not due to Kalei's consistent playstyle but rather the fact he was condoning it despite people raising the point.

[Kison]

Woops, I accidentally hit submit before I was finished.

Meh. Coincidence. I've wasted enough breath refuting bad arguments, I'm just ignoring posts like yours at this point.

I said both Kalei and Guardian were acting similarly to how I've seen them act in previous games. My FoS was not due to Kalei's consistent playstyle but rather the fact he was condoning it despite people raising the point. I ultimately went with Guardian because of his push on Iammars, which I found to be absurd. Tell me, what would you have said had I gone with Kelei instead of Guardian? Would you have said I was distancing from Guardian without directly supporting his lynch? That's such an easy situation to twist on someone who decides to comment on both wagons, and I think you're stretching a good bit on this one.

[Erg0]

If he always plays like that, why does it surprise you that he condones it?

I'll respond briefly to your earlier post:

I guess one other thing we don't know is whether or not a doctorish protection would nullify the notification that they targeted scum, but Guardian insisted that he was certain of Erg0 being scum. So to me, we're relying on whether or not Guardian lied. The other thing is that if Guardian did lie to us, he did not really drop any dead certainties of anyone else being scum besides Thok(if I recall correctly), which seems unreasonable since their kill obviously did not go through that night.

Rule 17 (which you quoted) states that scum will be notified if their kill fails "for that reason" (i.e. because the target was scum). It seems reasonable to assume that they would not receive such a notification in the case of doctor protection, or any other external interference with their kill.

I have no idea who the goblins tried to kill night 2, but it does seem somewhat likely that it was either me or Thok. It appears not to be a coincidence that Thok was singled out by Guardian, given that he turned out to be the goblin protector - a role that the goblins would definitely want to be rid of. As I said earlier today, I think that the goblins may have a rolecop on their team - either that or Guardian made a really lucky guess.

On the other hand, I suspect that Guardian thought I had some kind of information role based on the way I zeroed in on him on the first day. That would be a good reason for him to want me dead one way or the other. Alternatively, if the goblins tried to kill me and failed without receiving notifaction of why, it makes sense to me that he would want to get me lynched since he can't be certain that I'm killable at night.

The other possible scenario is that the goblins tried to kill someone else entirely on night 2, and Guardian was just annoyed about being run up on day 1 and decided to take it out on two of the wagoners. Frankly, it's the kind of thing that I could see him doing.

I really think that I'm just repeating myself at this point. I'm hoping that if we don't rush the day then people will gradually come to their senses and realise that they're relying on the word of scum who has already been shown to have been lying about the other person he fingered on his way out.

[Erg0]

cicero: can you please answer my question in 1198.

[Erg0]

Kison: didn't see the end of that.

My issue is not that you chose one wagon over the other, it's the fact that you FoSed Kscope at all for something that you did not adequately demonstrate to be suspicious. It feels like you just threw the FoS in for the sake of appearances.

[Thesp]

In other news, our Ninja Finder appeared to be on Thesp like flies on shinola.

unvote, vote: Thesp

THIS IS YET ANOTHER REASON WHY FRITZLER'S D1 PLAY WAS TERRIBLE. It would be awesome to revive Mgm and ask him what he found, and maybe get him some protection. Sheesh.

I can understand the votes on me due to Mgm, because it's a reasonable conclusion to draw, even if the conclusion is incorrect. It's not the first time Mgm has been irrationally and insanely wrong about me. (See Face to Face Mafia for such an example. In fact, his rhetoric there is very similar to this game, and he did not have any cop-like role in that game, just his mis-guided intuition. He only let up when I'd spearheaded a lynch of scum no one else had given attention to, and there was an innocent investigation more-or-less revealed on me.) Also note that Mgm started his crazy "lynch Thesp" campaign in D1, and simply continued it through D2. (I understand that one could conlude that he simply investigated me at night and found me guilty, but I think there are a number of reasonable alternatives, one of which must have obtained.)

I still have a strong suspicion that Skruffs is scum, for details which will be outlined later in this post, but I'm a little more reticent to lynch him at the moment because of Twomz's result. I know there is at least one other scum faction he could belong to, but he's at least slightly more cleared by investigation than most of you.

I don't think Skruffs should be allowed near the endgame.

I'm going to claim now, then give some more analysis, because I think otherwise I'm going to be a distraction. I'm

Sanada Yukimura, a Samurai

. I'm also a

DayVig

. I alluded to this earlier when I referred to Twito...

I swear I'm going to be a good boy about this, though it's taking every ounce of my restraint. Guardian is lucky I'm not Twito.

My first experience playing with Twito came when I was in Dilbert Mafia with him. I was deliberately cryptic in that game about something, and was also highly hostile towards Twito, whom I thought was scum. He was aggravated at me, so he daykilled me, losing the town valuable information in the process. (I was town with info on a message-sender.) This reference was directly to the play there, whereas my aggravation was such that had I shared Twito's temperament, I may have daykilled Guardian then. You'll also note my hostility towards Fritzler for his play, and the general feeling I had that simply because you

can

do something cool doesn't mean you

should

.

My power is a day-ender. Also worth noting - if I kill town, I die too.

Part of my strong suspicion of Iammars (following Guardian's logic) was that

I

was going to confirm with flavor! After hurriedly seeing my role, I went to post my confirmation, and was going to do something appropriate to my character (in part for the discussion that might arise), then realized I'd forgotten whether precisely I was a ninja or a pirate. When I went back to check, I was genuinely surprised to be

neither

- that's why Iammars's confirmation post stuck out to me -

I was going to do something similar, so it made sense that another person might do the same.

I'd prefer to hold on to my ability, but would understand if it's necessary to use it today. (I'm a little hesitant about the 2-town loss when there seem to be a lot of scum about.) If it

is

necessary for me to use my ability today, I will use my best judgment.

I suspect that there are a few players who are genuinely incorrect about me, and there are plenty of scum who are more than happy to whip up such support for a lynch.

Now, to business.

Personally, I'm vacillating on Guardian/Erg0. It makes sense for guardian to finger a non-buddy as scum whether or not it's actually true. But the whole 'Moses coming down from the mountain' schtick Guardian seemed to be pulling at the beginning of yesterday makes me think he was planning to announce an incriminating result, which makes me think Erg0scum is more likely.

I agree with this sentiment, and would like to hear a claim from Erg0.

- I think Erg0 is not just caught scum but I think I've guessed what kind: a ninja. I look back on the Guardian stuff and the timing and manner of his claim and am coming down on the side that says Erg0 got caught by the crosskill rule. Everything else is Erg0 trying to stay alive. Which is fair. But I'm not buying it. Why a ninja though Cicero? Just a hunch but when I started to go back and re-read it was Erg0 who was first to notice that MBL's night kill was really two nightkills. One being goblin by the looks of things. The other one: ninja. "But Cicero! That doesn't prove anything!!! sputter, sputter!!" Yeah yeah. Cicero knows. It's just a guess. I also don't think it makes sense to wait for scum to do town's dirty work. I'm really confused by Gorrad's position here. If he wasnt already confirmed I'd be assuming he was scum, and I obviously wouldnt be the only one.

I like this paragraph.

Regardless of if he is confirmed, It's really scummy to be trying to tell people to kill me, considering I don't remember him actually saying he thought I was scum earlier in the game.

This made me laugh, calling someone's actions scummy whilst simultaneously acknowledging they are confirmed town.

There are several reasons I can see why Thesp is full of anti-skruffiness.

1) He is a pirate, a ninja, or a goblin. Motive: Get all players other than his team killed, and realizes that Skruffs is a pretty easy lynch, all things considering.

2) Day one, I called him out on a series of very bad suggestions; remember when he suggested everyone claim pirate or ninja? I chastized him, and he's been voting and basically saying 'kill skruffs' ever since. Speculative motive: Resentment of my wit and mental accuity in poking him at a time when his game was off; his wanting to lynch me is purely spiteful in nature.

3) He's a lyncher on me. I find this to be a possible, feasible role, based on my role, but I don't see anyone being so blatantly obvious about it. Speculative Motive: He wins if I get lynched.

4) He really doesn't care about the game, and has no idea what is going on, so is just attempting to be 'constant' if he can't be constructive. Perhaps, if scum, he's hoping i will come up scum so that he can say he was bread-crumbing cop from day 1.

That's my reasonings as to why Thesp has been voting me constantly since day 1.

I do find it interesting that you are discounting the fact that I might genuinely be wrong. (I understand why you are discounting that I might be right, though it's not something I can ignore.)

I also am down on a Thesp lynch; even more so than Erg0; the quiet cop fingering is enough to justify it to me.

This bothers me. A lot.

I really wished we'd done the pirate/ninja claim earlier, now, though I'm not certain how helpful it'd be at this juncture.

I'm glad I voiced my suspicion of Skruffs without posting reason at first, as it seems there's shared, genuine concern about him being anti-town. I feel somewhat justified by that. Part of my concern with him is the excessive attention given to flavor, which in my experience comes far more often from scum. I do think he was keenly aware on who died and how moreso because he's paying particular attention to them. (People are slightly more likely to mention things about which they have direct knowledge. Also, killing-scum are more keenly aware of the roles they've killed because it's the first thing they check, in my experience, which Skruffs has demonstrated in this game.) He also seems to be taking a lot of potshots from the sidelines, and is overly speculative about many things without being committal. He was also overly concerned with comments that I made that I thought he was scum - he was looking for something to respond to in order to allay my suspicions. Town more frequently shrug off passing suspicion of a player or two (especially when presented in an unfounding manner), scum are more eager to defend themselves against something. (This is part of why I think defenses are overrated - scum are far too eager to them!) Later on, his speculation around Twomz was very odd, and was a bit eager to post "Hooray for lynching scum!"

Perhaps that can give you some insight into why I think Skruffs is scum. And a terrible irony when I say we should also be looking at other players right now as well. I think the spotlight is too narrow - there are a lot of sideline players that need to be involved. I'm interested in what Flameaxe thinks of most the players in the game. I also want to hear more from RogueBen, for a number of reasons. I think Erg0 is likely the best lynch today.

[mikeburnfire]

I remember watching an anime with Sanada Yukimura in it. I was wondering why Thesp claimed a tertiary character in a less than popular cartoon, but then I wiki'd it and found that Sanada was a real person

Initially, I'm skeptical. Your power, if used, would not only end the day phase thus preventing a lynch, but is also a bit unbalanced, in the fact that if used improperly could leave three or four town dead if you are town. I can easily see this role as a pirate/ninja role. You end the day early, hurting the town, and if you kill a rival scum, you stay alive and look all the better. If you kill town, then you die, but hey you also killed town.

Samurai ~= Ninja

[The Fonz]

unvote

pending thinking about Thesp's claim.

My first instinct is that we should have Thesp daykill someone when they reach -1 and another player (or thesp himself) expresses willingness to hammer, so as to test the claim.

[Skruffs]

Hey Thesp.

If I were to walk up to you, when you and a bunch of other people were discussing, ACTUALLY discussing, a situation that was actually important.
Let's say I did that.

And while you were discussing, let's say I... oh... pushed my elbow into your ribs. I'd do it enough to be a bother, and I Would do it publicly. You would probably say something along the lines of, "Skruffs, stop, that's annoying."

Let's say you said that, and I kept my elbow there, and just kept waiting. Eventually you would ask, "Say, Skruffs? Would you mind explaining why you are jabbing me in the side? You're not doing much else, and it's annoying."

If I then said, "Aha! I jabbed you in the side to SEE if you would ask me to stop... a real town person wouldn't CARE if I was jabbing him in the side... obviously, you must be scum..."

You would probably look at me, the exact same way that I am looking at my computer screen right now. You just reinforced your 'argument through repitition', and added on the fallacy which involves drawing a target around the bullet hole.

[cicero]

cicero: can you please answer my question in 1198.

Oh yeah, sure. I thought I you really slipped up in this post:

1. You appear to know too much.

A scum crosskill is one possible explanation for the lack of goblin kill, but it's certainly not the

only

explanation. Doctor protection or a roleblocker are equally plausible explanations, and in those scenarios Guardian would not know the reason that the goblins' target didn't die. For that matter, you're assuming that the goblins tried to kill me in the first place, which is not a given by any means.

You're accusing Ooba of having too much information about the fact that you're scum. While I personally thank you for this because maybe he does, for me at least, this hoists you on your own petard.

I should temper my thought that you you're definitely a ninja though:

Hooray, we've entered the "I dunno, let's just lynch Kscope" phase of the day!

cicero, I can sympathise as I've been in a similar position in the past - but there's no need to lynch the lurker

immediately

. The first few kills tend to thin them out a bit, and we get much more information from wagonning more active players than pursuing easy lurker lynches.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: a strong Kscope wagon is almost always a sign that the town has given up and is taking the easy lynch. It doesn't even let us find scum on the wagon because almost everyone has given little to no reasoning beyond "he's lurking".

I concede, ya might be a pirate.

Could this all be a big misunderstanding involving a roleblocker or a doc? sure. But I don't think so.

[Kison]

My issue is not that you chose one wagon over the other, it's the fact that you FoSed Kscope at all for something that you did not adequately demonstrate to be suspicious. It feels like you just threw the FoS in for the sake of appearances.

Well, I find anyone who is unwilling to contribute

without good reason

, regardless or whether or not it's a consistent playstyle, to be a decent lynch candidate when all other avenues are exhausted, simply because you don't want them making it to the endgame where you have no read on them whatsoever. Kalei's lurkish tendency(which is one game of my own experience) does not extend to condoning the extent to which it happened.

Regarding Thesp's claim, I don't know... Misuse of such a townie role would be a huge oucher if it's indeed real, especially with the one-shot night kill immunities from scum. It'd be like a double mislynch followed by an onslaught of night kills. Believable? Thesp's either scum with this role or town with this role. He wouldn't lie about this kind of thing - if he ever wound up at L-1 and refused to use his ability, then we'd obviously know he's lying, especially with the tone of resignment to the will of the people in his latest post.

Whether scum or town originating, we have an ability at our disposal. Since it's a day-ending ability, I think it makes sense to use it on whoever we'd otherwise lynch, unless someone has a better idea.

Hey Skruffs McGruff. Who's the scum?

[Kison]

Ok, hold on a minute. I am thinking back to what I just said, and realize now that I'm an idiot. What's the plus side to your ability, Thesp? You're a day-vig, and your ability basically takes the place of a lynch, right? If you kill incorrectly, you

and

your target die. So why would you _ever_ use your ability as opposed to allowing us to lynch? If what you're saying is true, then if we mislynch, you at least know that we are only killing one townie, whereas if you mis-vig, you know that you are killing two.


~~Use of Thesp's Ability~~
1) Thesp uses ability on townie : 2 Townie dies. Game goes to night.
2) Thesp uses ability on scum : 1 Scum dies. Game goes to night.

~~Use of regular lynch~~
1) Town lynches a townie : 1 Townie dies. Game goes to night.
2) Town lynches scum : 1 Scum dies. Game goes to night.

So basically what I'm saying is if I am reading your role correctly, there is no upside - it is purely detrimental, and therefore either I cannot read or your role would be a ridiculous townie role.

Unvote

Vote : Thesp

[Iammars]

Thesp's role isn't completely useless. It can stop what he thinks is going to be a bad lynch if he wants to take a hit for it.

[Kison]

The

only

upside would be if he prevented a bad lynch

and

hit accurately. That's a lot of faith(and risk) given to one player who is no more informed of the goings on than the rest of the Town is.

Has anyone ever seen this role in another game? If so, I'd be a lot more inclined to believe that this could be given to the Town.

[Thesp]

Initially, I'm skeptical. Your power, if used, would not only end the day phase thus preventing a lynch, but is also a bit unbalanced, in the fact that if used improperly could leave three or four town dead if you are town.

I don't understand this - what do you mean, here?

Also, what do you think of Skruffs? About anyone else? (Let's broaden the spotlight, shall we?)

If I were to walk up to you, when you and a bunch of other people were discussing, ACTUALLY discussing, a situation that was actually important.
Let's say I did that.

And while you were discussing, let's say I... oh... pushed my elbow into your ribs. I'd do it enough to be a bother, and I Would do it publicly. You would probably say something along the lines of, "Skruffs, stop, that's annoying."

Let's say you said that, and I kept my elbow there, and just kept waiting. Eventually you would ask, "Say, Skruffs? Would you mind explaining why you are jabbing me in the side? You're not doing much else, and it's annoying."

If I then said, "Aha! I jabbed you in the side to SEE if you would ask me to stop... a real town person wouldn't CARE if I was jabbing him in the side... obviously, you must be scum..."

You would probably look at me, the exact same way that I am looking at my computer screen right now. You just reinforced your 'argument through repitition', and added on the fallacy which involves drawing a target around the bullet hole.

That's a very extreme analogy. Also, how did I "reinforce my 'argument through repitition'"? By asserting why I think you're scum, which you'd been asking for for some time?

Regarding Thesp's claim, I don't know... Misuse of such a townie role would be a huge oucher if it's indeed real, especially with the one-shot night kill immunities from scum.

I agree entirely.

So basically what I'm saying is if I am reading your role correctly, there is no upside - it is purely detrimental, and therefore either I cannot read or your role would be a ridiculous townie role.

Why would it be a ridiculous (and apparently impossible?) townie role? On that note, I've already deduced the 4 possibilities you outlined, which is why I think it wise I use my ability in place of

my

lynch, instead of any others. The upside of it is that we either get

two

lynches (if I'm wrong and I hit a townie), and the better upside of it is if I hit right, we kill a scum, then have to figure out what to do with me. (I have ideas about what we can do with me, obviously. )

Has anyone ever seen this role in another game? If so, I'd be a lot more inclined to believe that this could be given to the Town.

I saw it in the game I had with Twito, though without the suicide-on-a-townie-kill aspect.

[Erg0]

cicero: can you please answer my question in 1198.

Oh yeah, sure. I thought I you really slipped up in this post:

1. You appear to know too much.

A scum crosskill is one possible explanation for the lack of goblin kill, but it's certainly not the

only

explanation. Doctor protection or a roleblocker are equally plausible explanations, and in those scenarios Guardian would not know the reason that the goblins' target didn't die. For that matter, you're assuming that the goblins tried to kill me in the first place, which is not a given by any means.

You're accusing Ooba of having too much information about the fact that you're scum. While I personally thank you for this because maybe he does, for me at least, this hoists you on your own petard.

Um, no. I'm accusing Ooba of having too much information about what Guardian supposedly knew, and his (Guardian's) motivations for doing what he did. In context, I'm saying that if what Ooba claims is true then the only way he could be as sure as he appears is if he is also a goblin.

I should temper my thought that you you're definitely a ninja though:

Hooray, we've entered the "I dunno, let's just lynch Kscope" phase of the day!

cicero, I can sympathise as I've been in a similar position in the past - but there's no need to lynch the lurker

immediately

.

The first few kills tend to thin them out a bit,

and we get much more information from wagonning more active players than pursuing easy lurker lynches.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: a strong Kscope wagon is almost always a sign that the town has given up and is taking the easy lynch. It doesn't even let us find scum on the wagon because almost everyone has given little to no reasoning beyond "he's lurking".

I concede, ya might be a pirate.

To me it looks like I'm just right - note bolded sentence. Perhaps I'm a fortune teller.

Could this all be a big misunderstanding involving a roleblocker or a doc? sure. But I don't think so.

Nobody ever said this was a misunderstanding. This is a deliberate deception, calling it a misunderstanding is just an attempt by you to strengthen your case by being dismissive of all other possibilities.

Again.

[Erg0]

To be clear, the "deliberate deception" in the last paragraph of the above post refers to Guardian's actions, not cicero's.

[cicero]

cicero: can you please answer my question in 1198.

Oh yeah, sure. I thought I you really slipped up in this post:

1. You appear to know too much.

A scum crosskill is one possible explanation for the lack of goblin kill, but it's certainly not the

only

explanation. Doctor protection or a roleblocker are equally plausible explanations, and in those scenarios Guardian would not know the reason that the goblins' target didn't die. For that matter, you're assuming that the goblins tried to kill me in the first place, which is not a given by any means.

You're accusing Ooba of having too much information about the fact that you're scum. While I personally thank you for this because maybe he does, for me at least, this hoists you on your own petard.

Um, no. I'm accusing Ooba of having too much information about what Guardian supposedly knew, and his (Guardian's) motivations for doing what he did. In context, I'm saying that if what Ooba claims is true then the only way he could be as sure as he appears is if he is also a goblin.

Yes.... exactly. Maybe I'm being stupid and, seriously, explain it to me because I have no interest in mislynching. Particularly you. You're a strong player and generally a pleasant one. But I saw this as a slip on your part and I'm still missing the distinction you're trying to make. It seems to me that the implication is that you are accusing Ooba of being Guardian's scumbuddy - a general OMGUS move - and the slip is that he has too much info about the situation. The situation being that Guardian's buddy(s) know that you are from a rival scum-group. I've read Ooba's post and yours a bunch of times and I think you posted without thinking and screwed up because you didn't see the implications. I'm sorry if that bugs you.

[Skruffs]

This made me laugh, calling someone's actions scummy whilst simultaneously acknowledging they are confirmed town.

You're being ignorant, Thesp. Just because someone is TOWN does not mean that their play is smart. You said something almost exactly along the same lines regarding Fritz's ressurection of the doc-killing Vig. Gorrad directed scum to kill me. Wether he is town or scum, how is that pro town? Or helpful? Or stimulating to the discussion?

Secondly, why did you decide to use the same playstyle on me as you did on Twito?

I do find it interesting that you are discounting the fact that I might genuinely be wrong. (I understand why you are discounting that I might be right, though it's not something I can ignore.)

I don't see me as discounting anything; that whole list of options was saying what you COULD be, not what you COULDN'T be. I've noted during the game that you are acting funny; it's not 'discounting' someone to be aware of their actions. Unlike some people *cough MBL GORRAD cough cough* I think I've been pretty explicit in my suspicions. You can call them 'pot shots' from the side, if you wan, but they are my two cents. I just happen to have a LOT of pennies, so I distribute handfulls of them at a time.

Why does it bother you that I am 'down' for your lynch? You've been acting scummily all game; apparently intentionally, by your own admission. It's like I'm suspicious for not playing along with your 'trust thesp' gambit. You started off squirrelly and only later built up a case to defend that squirreliness.


As for shared, genuine concern... *shakes his head* If you say someone is scum enough, people will believe it. You have kept your opinions on other people restricted almost entirely to me THE ENTIRE GAME.

That makes it even more ironic when you say

,

"I think the spotlight is too narrow - there are a lot of sideline players that need to be involved."

. This of course directly after repeating the same "Skruffs is scum" that you have been saying all game long, in a post that only talks directly about ONE LIVING PLAYER.

Of course people are going to start following you - if only to get you to shut up. (See Guardian re: IH in Open 19)


MBF:
For the record, if he is true-claiming, then he most likely IS town. There's no way that a scum would have a day-ending ability like that, even if it resulted in suicide if he killed town. If it is one-shot, then it's possible he's scum, still.

Cicero : You are not acting anything like the doctor from 499. I'm very happy to read your posts. THey do not fill me with anger. Just a side note, I guess. Also: Stop fishing.

Kison: Nice double post.



Who is scum... let's see. Thesp has been way up there, but I haven't been focusing on him, because I figured that the way he was acting he would probably wind up doing something like a claim like this. He has kind of *had* to do something drastic, ever since he tried to get everyone to claim pirate or ninja (and when I called him out on that is precisely the moment he started voting me I think). However, a power role that doesn't necessarily benefit town seems to be par for the course for this game.

I'm tired and just got back from restealing my car, so I am a bit frazzled, so this list will be based on my opinion and not on facts. Therefore: There are discrepancies. But here's the list:

MBL is most likely town; the only way he wouldn't be would be if Dr. Fritzlerstein ressed a player as an SK or 'monster' version of themselves.

Gorrad is confirmed town.

Ooooooobalooba was lynched but nto lynched. He's never explained why this happened. The only instance I have seen of this happening was in Post Restriction 3; Glork was "The Mayor's Assistant" and got pardoned automatically the first time he was lynched. If someone else pardoned him, they haven't said why; I don't see there beign any reason to waste a one-shot lynch-prevention day 1. If it's not one-shot, I can understand why they'd keep quiet. So Ooba is up there.

MBF has been sideskirting the game ever since MBL first showed up dead; I remember that when Iammars was being attacked for /yarr confirming, I brought up that MBF mentioned enjoying the chance to be called MBL in the game and MBL died (not by one hit but by two), so it was suspicious that MBF brought that up because it may have directed kills.

Similarly, TSQ also tried to get DGB killed pregame, and she was, though only by one scum team. So I still think MBF and TSQ should be up there.



I think Erg0 is up there, too. I say this because there is no evidence yet that there are role blockers, and MBL pretty clearly demanded on his ressurrection that he would be taking all of the doctor protections. So even if Thok thought Erg0 *was* town, he probably would still have been focusing on protecting MBL. So Yes, Erg0 is still up there. I think that Guardian (And I said this before) would want to keep attention on other scum groups, and not his own; so getting another scum group revealed as fast as possible, especially if it is one of the title groups, probably was his goal. The alternative is that he tried to kill MBL the night that the goblins didn't kill.

My guess as to Guardian's partner, right now, is Claus. He may have two partners, but regardless, I think Claus is likely to be one of them. His interactions with Guardian strike me as one scumbuddy coaching/guiding another.

samruc has been laying REAL low.

there's more but that's my leads at the moment,

[Skruffs]

simulpost for everyone but Kison's last post, but can't catch up now

[Erg0]

cicero: can you please answer my question in 1198.

Oh yeah, sure. I thought I you really slipped up in this post:

1. You appear to know too much.

A scum crosskill is one possible explanation for the lack of goblin kill, but it's certainly not the

only

explanation. Doctor protection or a roleblocker are equally plausible explanations, and in those scenarios Guardian would not know the reason that the goblins' target didn't die. For that matter, you're assuming that the goblins tried to kill me in the first place, which is not a given by any means.

You're accusing Ooba of having too much information about the fact that you're scum. While I personally thank you for this because maybe he does, for me at least, this hoists you on your own petard.

Um, no. I'm accusing Ooba of having too much information about what Guardian supposedly knew, and his (Guardian's) motivations for doing what he did. In context, I'm saying that if what Ooba claims is true then the only way he could be as sure as he appears is if he is also a goblin.

Yes.... exactly. Maybe I'm being stupid and, seriously, explain it to me because I have no interest in mislynching. Particularly you. You're a strong player and generally a pleasant one. But I saw this as a slip on your part and I'm still missing the distinction you're trying to make. It seems to me that the implication is that you are accusing Ooba of being Guardian's scumbuddy - a general OMGUS move - and the slip is that he has too much info about the situation. The situation being that Guardian's buddy(s) know that you are from a rival scum-group. I've read Ooba's post and yours a bunch of times and I think you posted without thinking and screwed up because you didn't see the implications. I'm sorry if that bugs you.

I think we're talking at cross-purposes: what I'm attempting to convey to Ooba is that the basis of his accusation is something that only Guardian's buddy could know for sure. I am not actually accusing him of being Guardian's buddy, I'm basically trying to force him to re-examine his conclusions in that light. It probably did come off a little more OMGUSy than I intended, but I don't tend to believe that Ooba is actually Guardian's partner.

[Kison]

So basically what I'm saying is if I am reading your role correctly, there is no upside - it is purely detrimental, and therefore either I cannot read or your role would be a ridiculous townie role.

Why would it be a ridiculous (and apparently impossible?) townie role?

I am not saying it's impossible, but you have to understand, I am having a hard time coming to grips with this being a townie role as opposed to a scum role. Regardless, to you, it shouldn't really matter. I am fairly certain you have a role similar to what you described regardless of your alignment, and you know you have this as an out card no matter where the storm lands.

...But I don't want people dismissing this as some kind of indisputable role and to let it slip under the rug, which is why I'm making a big deal about my skepticism.