Mini 554 - Mafia in Vollville - Over!!

[Patrick]

did you hear that ryan just got banned recently for posting a role PM in a game? ABR got me lynched day 1 or day 2 in my next four games after that, he was town aligned in all four and I was only scum in the last one. I was the doctor two of those times. He just posted in MD that he is only going to mod for now on.

Yep, I've heard about all this. Am fairly happy to see ryan gone.

What was notable about my play in Friends and Enemies?

I didn't read it particularly carefully because alot of the discussion turned my brain to mush. I remember thinking you were incredibly scummy early on and wondering how on earth you kept not being lynched as scum. I thought you improved a bit later on.

What was the point of those two questions?

He may be scum.
opie is scum.

I prefer to pick the low-hanging fruit.

You haven't been saying, "Jitsu may be scum" or I'm a little suspicious of him following Opie's case". You've gone out of your way to say you think he's protown and want to defend him. I'm giving you the chance to do that by telling me why you think he's protown.

=======================================

Votecount #15

opie - 3 (Adel, Oman, ChaosOmega)

Jitsu - 3 (Erg0, Patrick, Guardian)
Guardian - 2 (opie, Incognito)
Oman - 1 (Jitsu)
Xyltixlm - 1 (Matt_S)
TrustGossip - 1 (pickemgenius)
Matt_S - 1 (Xylthixlm)

Not voting - 0 (nobody)

With 12 alive, it's 7 to lynch.
Deadline for D1: Saturday March 1, 10:55AM GMT+10
=======================================

[Adel]

I don't want the town to lynch him. He reacted how I would expect him to if he were town again, as opposed to opie who didn't. Their interaction is what really sold me on opie. Can we lynch him now, please?

[Guardian]

PEG, you forgot to unvote, so your vote didn't count, I think.

Adel makes sense.

I'd like to hear Jitsu's response to my response though. I expect him to paint me as scummy D-:.

[pickemgenius]

UNVOTE:


VOTE: OPIE

[Jitsu]

My mind changed, significantly? Re-reading the case made me want to vote you.

I didn't say it was significant, but in post 307 you said "Erg0, my world has not been set on fire. I don't really see the inconsistency that you claim to see." Now you reread and looked harder and now you see enough to vote for me. It may or may not be a dramatic shift from what you were thinking previously, but it's enough of a change that I was inspired to ask what part of the case on me you found compelling.

How much is that, anyways?

I don't know, but I got a feeling from post 359 that you might be town trying to feel me out. I thought from your statements "129 really does seem like a back-out/turnaround. But, Oman posted that he had been joking a bit before... so I could see Jitsu reacting to that." and "I was sympathetic with Erg0's case, and Patrick's, so I want to see where this wagon takes me." This suggests to me that you see the case on me and want to apply a little pressure/probe further to see the reactions to feel me out, but you're still not really convinced yet that I am actually guilty. That is a slight town tell to me.

Ah, but if you were scum, you would totally crumble and crack under pressure, to help the town out?

Of course not. It was merely a statement, not something designed to be a town tell. I don't know how I would react as scum, because I have no experience playing as scum (including this game).

That's cool. I totally fear the spotlight. Spotlight is one step away from lynch, and me being lynched is about the worst contribution I can make for my faction.

I assume that by saying "my faction", you are speaking in general terms here, across games? You actually made a good point here, as when I do draw a scum role someday, I will need to fear the spotlight. (I am going to get an awful meta when that day comes, I think.) But in terms of this game at least, the spotlight has already found me. I did not seek it out. My thought is, well, the damage has been done and the spotlight is on me now. I can choose to continue to act transparently and try to help people see the truth, or ...not. I chose the first option.

I am not afraid of some scrutiny on me, because as a pro-town player, I have nothing to hide. Maybe being in the spotlight is a step away from a lynch, but most players have do have the spotlight on them at some point during the game. I think that it is just as telling what someone does once s/he is in the spotlight (sometimes even more so) as it is how good they are at avoiding the spotlight in the first place. Also, since the new information people are receiving is (I think) beneficial to the town, me being in the spotlight is not completely bad, in itself. But don't construe that as meaning that I am not afraid of being lynched, because I am. I prefer not to be lynched since I am innocent, but if it is going to happen, I at least want everyone to weigh in on the matter, so that the town has good information for Day 2. I'm not giving up and accepting that as my fate though.

Their cases on you aren't one sentences FOS's. They are long, detailed, and they have both been trying to encourage others to lynch you. BUSing you when no one else was suspicious of you with so many other potential lynch targets doesn't make sense.

That's good logic.

I'd like to hear Jitsu's response to my response though. I expect him to paint me as scummy D-:.

I'm puzzled why you didn't keep your expectation to yourself until after I answered so you could get a better read off my response.

I feel that most of the questions you asked are good, especially how you seemed to feel Adel out regarding her case on Opie. That's a wise move given Adel's playstyle. I disagree with the assertion that you are asking a lot of questions but not doing much with the answers. I think you are trying to get reads on people, and that there is a logical reason for most of your questions, but that you are not disclosing a lot of your opinions and keeping things close to your chest. Some might consider this a scumtell (and is probably why some of the other pro-town players don't know what to think of you), but I'm not convinced it is a scumtell in this case. I'm still unsure about you, but even though I've seen some possibly scummy bits here and there (more so early on), I believe your play overall has been helpful to the town. My read on you, at the moment, is leaning town.

[Jitsu]

I don't want the town to lynch him. He reacted how I would expect him to if he were town again,

as opposed to opie who didn't. Their interaction is what really sold me on opie.

Can we lynch him now, please?

(emphasis mine)

Can you explain you mean by the bolded part, please?

[Patrick]

Hmm. That makes a fair bit of sense. Jitsu, please could you respond to Erg0's earlier question. Thanks.

[Guardian]

Jitsu, I'm only responding to the parts of your response that I feel you are asking me to respond to or that I want to respond to. If there's more you want, feel free to make that explicit.

Ah, but if you were scum, you would totally crumble and crack under pressure, to help the town out?

Of course not. It was merely a statement, not something designed to be a town tell. I don't know how I would react as scum, because I have no experience playing as scum (including this game).

That's just WIFOM. If not designed to be a town tell, why post it?

That's cool. I totally fear the spotlight. Spotlight is one step away from lynch, and me being lynched is about the worst contribution I can make for my faction.

I assume that by saying "my faction", you are speaking in general terms here, across games?

Yes.

You actually made a good point here, as when I do draw a scum role someday, I will need to fear the spotlight. (I am going to get an awful meta when that day comes, I think.)

I feat the spotlight as town too. Why only as scum for you? You are generally good at diffusing pressure as town? I'm bad at is, historically, sometimes I've even gotten very angry. That and convincing people of things, are my mafia-weaknesses. I'm usually right, and I'm usually town... anyways, this is neither here nor there.

I don't fear being in the spotlight because I have nothing to hide.

Maybe being in the spotlight is a step away from a lynch.

But don't construe that as meaning that I am not afraid of being lynched, because I am.

Can you help me make sense of all this? It appears contradictory.

I don't fear being in the spotlight because I have nothing to hide.I prefer not to be lynched since I am innocent, but if it is going to happen, I at least want everyone to weigh in on the matter, so that the town has good information for Day 2. I'm not giving up and accepting that as my fate though.

I'd hope not, with 2 people making a case on you and one additional person voting you because of both cases combined.

I'd like to hear Jitsu's response to my response though. I expect him to paint me as scummy D-:.

I'm puzzled why you didn't keep your expectation to yourself until after I answered so you could get a better read off my response.

Not sure why I did either. Your response to my expectation could have been telling, I think that's what my thought process was.

Some might consider this a scumtell (and is probably why some of the other pro-town players don't know what to think of you), but I'm not convinced it is a scumtell in this case.

Which players are you talking about, here?

[Jitsu]

Right now I'm not sure whether Jitsu was trying to cover himself with his original reversal, or if he's trying to cover himself for the reversal now. The explanation makes some sense, but I have to ask:

Jitsu, I got the feeling when reading your post 129 that you were trying to give the impression that you'd figured things out earlier than you actually had. Do you think that this is a fair statement?

I think the question is ambiguous. I could read it as "Do you think it is fair that I came to that conclusion?" or "Is that really what you were intending to do in 129?". The answer in the first case is yes, but in the
second, it is no, assuming I understand you correctly.

The thought that the wagon could be random/not serious did enter my mind early on, in a way, but I didn't give it much weight at the time. I remember thinking (around the page 2-3 timeframe), "could Oman and Guardian really be this transparent?". But I honestly didn't give that a lot of thought because Oman (and Guardian) seemed to continue acting like he was serious about the wagon. Lacking any admission by Oman or Guardian, I continued to operate under the assumption that the wagon was real.

I did figure that Oman's DayVig attempt on me was a joke (because his reason made no sense to me -- I never really attacked him in Underground Mafia and we were both members of the town that won), but I had not yet figured out that his vote on Erg0 was also a joke. When Oman admitted in 87 that the DayVig was a joke and said that he would have killed Erg0 with it instead, I was trying to figure out why. This was when I started to really wonder if his case on Erg0 was serious. But even then, I wouldn't say I had "figured it out" at that point.

When I asked Oman to restate his case against Erg0 in 92, I expected that forcing him to restate his case would either get him to either explain things better (if he were serious) or that he would back off and admit that the case wasn't really serious. He did neither, so I didn't get either of the two possible reactions that I expected from him. This is what I meant when I said in 129 that the "wagon on Erg0 lasted longer than I expected". I was not trying to imply in 129 that I had figured things out earlier than I really had, but after re-reading 129, I was able to see how people might have gotten that impression.

When Oman did admit in 122 that he was not serious about the wagon, I felt a little foolish. Since I was operating under the incorrect assumption, I felt obligated to reread (starting around the time of the Erg0 wagon) with a more open mind.

[Jitsu]

That's just WIFOM. If not designed to be a town tell, why post it?

Honestly, I don't have a good answer for this. It did not enter my mind that it was just WIFOM, and therefore I maybe shouldn't have posted it. I was just posting what I was thinking.

Why only as scum for you? You are generally good at diffusing pressure as town? I'm bad at is, historically, sometimes I've even gotten very angry. That and convincing people of things, are my mafia-weaknesses. I'm usually right, and I'm usually town... anyways, this is neither here nor there.

It's tough for me to make general statements about my play, because this is only my second game. In my first game (Underground Mafia) I was vanilla townie, and I played well enough to avoid much suspicion altogether. I got one semi-serious vote in the middle of day 1, and I was never voted or seriously attacked after that. I drew the doc protect (from GunslingerKB, who Oman later replaced), cop investigation, and NK (which failed) all during N2. My strategy from the beginning of that game was to act transparently as possible to help the town, and to defend myself well so that I would not get into the spotlight in the first place. It worked in that game and I am using the same strategy here again because I am pro-town. I'd love to use that strategy forever (it fits my personality because I'm very honest in real life), but I am aware that if I do draw a scum role someday, that I'm probably going to be screwed by the meta.

I think my strength is analyzing details. Players remarked that I was observant in my first game (regarding details and inconsistencies, I think), but I think I am weak at picking up on and interpreting subtle tells because I just don't have the experience. It takes me a while to get enough information to feed my analyses. In this game so far, with all of the finger pointing and an abundance of lynch candidates, I admit I was quite confused and a bit overwhelmed early on. I think I have a better grasp of things now.

This is the first time I've ever really been in the spotlight, so in face of the pressure, I've decided to just simply tell the truth because I don't know what else to do. I'm not afraid of the spotlight in the sense that I can't *actually* slip up -- since I have nothing to hide. It's still possible that something I say could be twisted or misconstrued and people could believe that I am guilty, even though I'm not. Thus, I'm still afraid that I could be lynched.

Can you help me make sense of all this? It appears contradictory.

I think I answered this above. If I didn't, please say so.

Some might consider this a scumtell (and is probably why some of the other pro-town players don't know what to think of you), but I'm not convinced it is a scumtell in this case.

Which players are you talking about, here?[/quote]
Since you seem to be treating me pretty fairly, I'll do one better and expand your question to include all of the players who might think it is a tell.

Xylthixlm is the main person I had in mind. His scumdar summary in post 162 seems to suggest this (this post may have led to Incognito's thoughts later in 215), and I also think it helps to explain some of his Cons mentioned later in post 300. But I don't think he really suspects you much for it. Like me, I think this is just a reason why he has some lingering doubts on you. I think he is probably town.

Opie. I think part of his case on you touches on this. I agree with some of Adel's case on him as I said, but I still have my doubts. Next on my "to do" list is to re-read him in light of recent events and see what I think.

Patrick. Some of his comments in 345 and 350 look like they could possibly be influenced by the tell I mentioned, even though he didn't specifically say that. He seems to have more of a neutral opinion of you. I didn't have much of an opinion on TrustGossip, and though I'm starting to get an impression on Patrick, I'd like to see some more comments from him before I make up my mind.

Incognito. Point (1) of his case against you in post 215 seems to be addressing that. He really seems to think it is a major scumtell.

Erg0 seems to agree with Incognito, from his comments in 242. I want to keep my opinions on them to myself for now since Erg0 is likely to respond to my post 383 and Incognito hasn't weighed in yet on recent events.

[opie]

Hey guys, I'm back from V/LA.

Here are my notes I made during my catch-up read-through.

First thing I noticed was that in Post 328 pickemgenius was critical when of Xylthixlm who suggested my Post 184 was an indication of pro-town alignment. pickemgenius said that my defense was an attempt to put pressure on someone else. I don't know if I agree with that characterization of Post 184. I do agree that I have put pressure on Guardian, but Adel's case against me was based largely on my case on Guardian. I feel like you are accusing me of deflecting attention from me onto Guardian which I feel is incorrect. I felt that I squarely addressed Adel case against me.

I agree with Adel with regards to his definition of distancing. Xylthixlm, not so much.

Welcome Patrick!

Matt_S, I think you are being a bit oversensitive in response to Adel's comments.

With regard to Post 340, why do you want to discuss the definition of arbitrary again?!

The wagon against Jitsu is starting to pick up some speed here. I am not completely sold on it yet, but I need to go back and re-read the posts cited and the case against him a bit more closely. My feeling has been until know that Jitsu has been a pretty pro-town player. But I maybe biased because he agreed with my initial case against Guardian. I need to stew on this.

While I am not sure how I quite feel about Jitsu at the moment, I agree with Patrick's Post in 370.

Adel: Post 373, slightly off topic, was ryan banned for role PM post in Pine Barrens?
Adel: Post 374, who you calling fruit?

Okay, more Jitsu/Guardian conversation. I need to study this.

My thoughts so far. More too come.

[vollkan]

Hey all. Having just read Gorckat's "Modding Best Practices", specifically his criticism of my style of votecounting - that it makes checking voting trends too difficult - I came up with what I hope is a good idea:

I have created a running collection of all the vote counts, on page 1 in post #2. Checking voting trends is now just a matter of looking at this one post.

EDIT: Also, ChaosOmega has been prodded.

[Adel]

@Vollkan: awesome.

[Incognito]

@oman do you still feel that Jitsu is pro-town? He was so good as town in our last game together, and I buy him as town so far in this game, that I want to defend him. Care to join me?

Eh, missed that.

Well, I would be happy to help you. I feel that Jitsu is flailing a bit, but I do not believe him to be scum / he should not be lynched yet. I should go through looking at the cases on him. I'd be willing to be there is at least 1 or 2 scum on him right now.

Oman, this post is disgusting and it reminds me very strongly of what opie was receiving some flak for in Adel's case when he was casting some suspicion towards Guardian and then trickling that suspicion down onto the other two people on the Erg0 mini-wagon. At the time of this post, Jitsu had accumulated three votes: one from Erg0 (a person who you previously labeled as "seeming very pro-town"), one from Patrick (a person whom you have yet to voice any suspicions about), and one from Guardian (a person whom I believe is scum but who you have yet to comment on especially in relation to my case against him).

So I ask you, which of these three people do you believe fall into this category of "1 or 2 scum"? Also, why do you believe this to be the case?

Huge FoS: Oman

[Incognito]

Oh and P.S. I was beginning my read where I left off last time, and I just finished reading Jitsu's responses to a number of the issues that have been raised against him. I actually found myself liking his responses. He seems level-headed and genuine and doesn't seem to be over-reacting about the spotlight being on him. Some portions of his response I really don't care for (I really despise it when people say stuff to the effect of "trust me, I'm town") but his response seemed very strong and clear.

He's listed who he believes is pro-town so far, but I'd be more interested to see where his current suspicions lie to form a better read on him.

[Guardian]

That's just WIFOM. If not designed to be a town tell, why post it?

Honestly, I don't have a good answer for this. It did not enter my mind that it was just WIFOM, and therefore I maybe shouldn't have posted it. I was just posting what I was thinking.

OK, we all do that. Slight scum tell though, for me. In my exp., scum self-refer as town more often than townies do. And you've been doing that quite a bit.

Some might consider this a scumtell (and is probably why some of the other pro-town players don't know what to think of you), but I'm not convinced it is a scumtell in this case.

Which players are you talking about, here?

Since you seem to be treating me pretty fairly, I'll do one better and expand your question to include all of the players who might think it is a tell.

Xylthixlm is the main person I had in mind. I think he is probably town.

Opie. Next on my "to do" list is to re-read him in light of recent events and see what I think.

Patrick. I'd like to see some more comments from him before I make up my mind.

Incognito. Erg0. Erg0 seems to agree with Incognito, from his comments in 242. I want to keep my opinions on them to myself for now.

Ok, dropping a big one: your post and subsequent response is a major, major scum tell for me.

I'll quote the relevant bit for emphasis:

Some might consider this a scumtell (and is probably why some of the other pro-town players don't know what to think of you)

In this phrase, you say some of the

other pro-town players

might think something about me. This implies two things: a) you know I am pro-town, and b) you know others are pro-town. You are sympathizing with me, to a small extent buddying, and in your very terminology have admitted you know that I am pro-town and you know the identities of some other pro-town players.

Only scum know who's not scum.

When I asked you who these players might be, you didn't retract it or anything, and in fact gave a detailed explanation, citing many players. You were careful to say only Xyl you *really* thought was town, the rest you were unsure... but this response isn't really sufficient for me.

The damage was done when you said that other pro-town players were suspicious of me. And not just one -- some -- many.

Knowing I'm town and knowing others are town is something that townies just wouldn't know, or say.

I believe you are scum Jitsu, and you are caught.

[Adel]

I'm starting to think that the Jitsu is the scum-backed alternative to their buddy getting the axe. I am not happy about it. Oman and I are drinking the same Kool-Aid on this one.

[Guardian]

Adel, what do you think specifically about my major point in 390?

[Adel]

I think it is unsubstantial.

read [url=http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6530]Underground Mafia[/quote] which is his only other game. He is such a clear asset to the town that remarkably slim evidence against him does nothing to convince me that risking his life is a chance worth taking.

opie, on the other hand, would make for good plant food. Let us let him push up daisies for the rest of the game.

[Jitsu]

@Guardian:

I wasn't very careful in how I worded what I said. I didn't retract it because I didn't realize I had made a mistake. When I said "pro-town players" I meant "people that I believed were pro-town". I don't expect you to believe me, but it's the truth.

Adel, can you say who you think Opie's partners are?

In any case, I will do a comprehensive reread, as I promised.

[Guardian]

@Adel

I did read the game, Jitsu was amazing.

However, I think my point is anything but insubstantial, nor do I think it falls under the category of remarkably slim evidence.

Also, do you think Erg0 & Patrick's cases contained "remarkably slim evidence"?


Don't get me wrong, I am not defending opie in any shape or form -- at this point, if not Jitsu, opie seems

great

. I really think I am on to something with Jitsu, however.



@Jitsu:

You didn't just say "pro-town players" you said "other pro-town players". You were addressing me -- so you meant "(I think you, Guardian, are pro-town) people other than you that I believe are pro-town"?

[Oman]

@oman do you still feel that Jitsu is pro-town? He was so good as town in our last game together, and I buy him as town so far in this game, that I want to defend him. Care to join me?

Eh, missed that.

Well, I would be happy to help you. I feel that Jitsu is flailing a bit, but I do not believe him to be scum / he should not be lynched yet. I should go through looking at the cases on him. I'd be willing to be there is at least 1 or 2 scum on him right now.

Oman, this post is disgusting and it reminds me very strongly of what opie was receiving some flak for in Adel's case when he was casting some suspicion towards Guardian and then trickling that suspicion down onto the other two people on the Erg0 mini-wagon. At the time of this post, Jitsu had accumulated three votes: one from Erg0 (a person who you previously labeled as "seeming very pro-town"), one from Patrick (a person whom you have yet to voice any suspicions about), and one from Guardian (a person whom I believe is scum but who you have yet to comment on especially in relation to my case against him).

So I ask you, which of these three people do you believe fall into this category of "1 or 2 scum"? Also, why do you believe this to be the case?

Huge FoS: Oman

I still stand by it, except I thought the wagon was bigger than 3. So I must say that 1 scum or maybe none.

[Adel]

Adel, can you say who you think Opie's partners are?

Matt_S seems awefully likely.

@Guardiuan: I'll go through all of it later, but I think Jitsu should be an investigation target and not a lynch.

[Patrick]

From this last page, I've liked some of Jitsu's responses. His comments on Guardian seem like honest attempts to discern his alignment and he's gone into it in some depth. I too have noticed how often he keeps asserting that he's innocent, but I can't decide if it's scummy or just something he likes doing. I know a few people who have a habit of doing it regardless of alignment. The possible slip caught by Guardian is interesting, but in my experience those kind of slips aren't that reliable as tells, even if there's no good answer for them. I know Glork seems to make that kind of slip all the time as town.

Anyway, I look forward to hearing from Jitsu about his suspicions.

Still don't like most of Adel's defences of Jitsu, which seem out of proportion. Although, if Jitsu is scum I wouldn't be looking at Adel first.

[Jitsu]

You didn't just say "pro-town players" you said "other pro-town players". You were addressing me -- so you meant "(I think you, Guardian, are pro-town) people other than you that I believe are pro-town"?

I was making an observation about some of the protown players in the game (of which I am one). It would have been more correct to say "players in the game I believe to be protown, other than you and myself" -- but that wording probably did not come to my mind because it doesn't sound very natural.

I was drawing a distinction between my thoughts (I saw the tell but didn't necessarily think it meant you were scum) and thoughts of other people I believed or suspected might be were protown (and believed the tell more than I did).

Xylthixlm was the main person I had in mind. I think from his comments, that he believes the tell more than I did (given that he seems to think you are neutral). But even with that, I thought Xylthixlm's analysis on you was fair and he considered all the evidence against you well. That is a town tell to me.

Patrick was another person I thought might be town but believed the tell a bit more.

The others, I thought believed the tell more, and I want to reread before commenting on them.