Mini 536: Heroes Smalltown. Game Over!

[cicero]

what a minute, we are closer to a mislynch because of my play? Why is that?

Because Adele might have watched Mathcam had she been given the opportunity. She also might have gotten caught in a lie.

[shaft.ed]

I can't keep up with the deluge but:

And we can survive my mislynch more easily than Yvonne's because hey - we have the doc AND the jailkeeper, right? That's why you are so indispensible. So if you are going to mislynch anyway - vote me. That leaves you with a powerful townforce in a tight situation 2 to 3 watchers, a doc, a jailkeeper. All my power does is let me give myself an NK alibi.

You've got to be freaking kidding me. Avoiding the mislynch is far better than going to night praying that our Doc &/or Jailkeeper, both of whom could potentially be scum, get lucky. Screw it, even if JUST CKD is scum and we mislynch the game is over.

[curiouskarmadog]

OK I'm about ready to push for a cicero lynch. Only thing really holding me back is the fact that he is confirmed targeting Adele last night and I have to read up on him more. But not liking his recent posting much at all.

shafted, I would be more than willingly to agree with you, but you did argue that one reason I wasnt the lynch today because it is confirmed that I made night actions each night. Well you confirmed Cicero today and he knew I blocked Adele before I claimed...so he could be (though I am really doubting it at this point) a very very misguided townie. Shafted, your thoughts on Yvonne? Your thoughts on Fonz's post then her claim?

[cicero]

I can't keep up with the deluge but:

And we can survive my mislynch more easily than Yvonne's because hey - we have the doc AND the jailkeeper, right? That's why you are so indispensible. So if you are going to mislynch anyway - vote me. That leaves you with a powerful townforce in a tight situation 2 to 3 watchers, a doc, a jailkeeper. All my power does is let me give myself an NK alibi.

You've got to be freaking kidding me. Avoiding the mislynch is far better than going to night praying that our Doc &/or Jailkeeper, both of whom could potentially be scum, get lucky. Screw it, even if JUST CKD is scum and we mislynch the game is over.

Then the game is pretty much over. These minis at this stage pretty much require a vigilante for the town to do well as near as I can tell. Or blind luck.

If you really think Yvonne is scum, go for it. Lynch her. If you think me AND yvonne are scum. Lynch me. That's all.

[shaft.ed]

Simple. You're the best play available. You aren't indispensible if you're scum because you'll just lock up the wrong person... oh wait. Like you just did. The watcher is pretty indispensible too, no? Because if the doc does block (and remember he can be motivated as well), the lead might require the watcher. So this whole indispensability thing cuts both ways.

We're all indespensible. LyLo and all you know.

Then the game is pretty much over. These minis at this stage pretty much require a vigilante for the town to do well as near as I can tell. Or blind luck.

If you really think Yvonne is scum, go for it. Lynch her. If you think me AND yvonne are scum. Lynch me. That's all.

So since the numbers are bad we should just lynch without much discussion. great plan.

Shafted, your thoughts on Yvonne? Your thoughts on Fonz's post then her claim?

I would love to but I really should have been doing work about 45 minutes ago. Damn things always get good when I'm busy.

[cicero]

Simple. You're the best play available. You aren't indispensible if you're scum because you'll just lock up the wrong person... oh wait. Like you just did. The watcher is pretty indispensible too, no? Because if the doc does block (and remember he can be motivated as well), the lead might require the watcher. So this whole indispensability thing cuts both ways.

We're all indespensible. LyLo and all you know.

Then CKD's argument of indispensibility is bullshit.

Then the game is pretty much over. These minis at this stage pretty much require a vigilante for the town to do well as near as I can tell. Or blind luck.

If you really think Yvonne is scum, go for it. Lynch her. If you think me AND yvonne are scum. Lynch me. That's all.

So since the numbers are bad we should just lynch without much discussion. great plan.[/quote]

Um... who's the discussion generatign factory today, beotch? Me. That's who. Where are you coming up with the idea I want to suppress discussion? That's bizarre dont you think?

[curiouskarmadog]

bold is me

Your argument about Fonz coaching her was answered by Fonz himself. He would have already told her who he targetted if he's her scumbuddy.

ahh this is where you drop the logic ball my friend. Of course he if was scum he would tell her WHO he targetted. BUT, in his post he not only told her he did INDEED target ONE player last night. (meaning he wasnt motoviated or blocked)..if he was blocked for some reason or motivate he might not have had the chance to tell her. Interested on your thoughts on this now.

What difference does it make exactly. She's a watcher who watched the doc. Even if she was scum, its a safe move because it was the right move. You seem to be saying something like "he warned her so that she had more latitude in who she could pretend to have watched", when the easy move was still to claim him. And she would have watched him because she was more likely to need to report!!!". Why exactly couldn't he tell her he was motivated at night? There's a 24 hour period in this game where Night talk continues after all the actions are done. I know this because

it exists for me to use with my new mason buddy

. Any such chat could easily happen during that period. She'd already know about the motivating. There's no need to coach. Fonz's coaching was more likely a dumb town slip up than scum message passing.

Well, I dont know how the nights work, I dont know who is told what when. He did however tell her he was blocked in that post. That he could not have told her in the night. If she said she watched him and no one targetted him then DGB came back with that DGB did target Fonz, there would be an issue. However, FOnz "slipped up" and said he was not blocked..so Yvonne knew to say no one targetted him.

Let's look at this objectively because you and she are very much parallels. It's your behavior and defenses that are contradictory CKD. She wanted to claim last to catch liars.

if she is scum, who catchs her? By going last? Adele? I am sure scum would not give Yvonne the kill if they thought Adele would watch her.

Exactly. There's no way Adele did the kill and no way Yvonne did the kill. Because they are both under the most pressure to tell the truth. (Also note that Shaft.ed did the pro-town thing and targetted Adele for motivation.)

ATM, I dont think shafted is scum, what is your point?

Which do you think that I think is the safer bet for scum?

why does it have to be between just us? isnt there 3 mafia in this game? Why am I the best bet when I have confirmed actions each night?

Because your confirmed action was far more beneficial to scum than town. It's the best lead I've got. I mean I would suspect DGB for her wango tango logic, but... she's DGB. You, on the other hand, are CKD and you knew better than to lock up Peter Petrelli whether (s)he was scum OR town.

obviously I didnt. I wish I had targetted Yvonne instead, but it would have still been a watcher..

Your action was the most anti-town thing in the game. And your defense is an insistence that your poor judgement was the right play, a cry of Indispensible Townie and a repeat push to rid the town of its OTHER watcher. Preferably backed up by the Doc.

I am indispensible at this point...and I think that you not only know that..you fear it. Please explain to me how lynching me at this point is the best option for the town.

Simple. You're the best play available. You aren't indispensible if you're scum because you'll just lock up the wrong person... oh wait. Like you just did. The watcher is pretty indispensible too, no? Because if the doc does block (and remember he can be motivated as well), the lead might require the watcher. So this whole indispensability thing cuts both ways.

so you are going on the basis that the Doc is for sure town..man you seem to have a great hold on this game...first Yvonne is town, now the doc that slipped up and told her how to claim is also town. SO who does that leave as scum? ANd since targetting adele was anti-town, it must mean that shafted and DGB are my scum buddies...you are ridiculous.

[curiouskarmadog]

what a minute, we are closer to a mislynch because of my play? Why is that?

Because Adele might have watched Mathcam had she been given the opportunity. She also might have gotten caught in a lie.

so either Adele or whoever Adele MIGHT have caught would be lying...lynching the wrong one would be a mislynch...lets say I targetted Shea..we would still be in the exact same ratio town versus scum, try again.

[The Fonz]

I'm not sure I understand what's going on, could someone tell me where precisely I've been coaching Yvonne?

[cicero]

OK I'm about ready to push for a cicero lynch. Only thing really holding me back is the fact that he is confirmed targeting Adele last night and I have to read up on him more. But not liking his recent posting much at all.

shafted, I would be more than willingly to agree with you, but you did argue that one reason I wasnt the lynch today because it is confirmed that I made night actions each night. Well you confirmed Cicero today and he knew I blocked Adele before I claimed...so he could be (though I am really doubting it at this point) a very very misguided townie. Shafted, your thoughts on Yvonne? Your thoughts on Fonz's post then her claim?

Finally, we get to the smart point. When I've accused you, your IMMEDIATE response has been that I must be scum. Defend Adele and I MUST BE SCUM. How about you just get to understanding that not everyone sees the game the same way. You did this to me in our last game together too btw. You were town. But you're OMGUSSY town. When town you can't imagine how anyone could think you were scum. So my point with the Lynch ME isnt "Yay! Lynch Me!". It's this: If you think my motives are disingenuous. That I'm going out on a limb to cause you to be lynched instead of Yvonne because she is scum and you are town, then *I AM THE RIGHT PLAY!" otherwise you are just all going to have to accept that at this point I genuinely disagree with you. Period.

[cicero]

EBWOP: Defend Yvonne.

[curiouskarmadog]

Fonz, read the thread, it was either a slip or you were coaching

CIcero, I didnt think you were scum because you defended adele. I am not being OMGUSy, your lack of logic, your change of heart, and your posts have eluded to your alignment. I think you and yvonne are scum, yes, but I dont think you are the right play. One of the reason I am not the right play is because I obviously made night actions both nights...I think you did too. Yvonne there is no way to tell. You keep mentioning that you might change your mind on Yvonne (given another reread), but you are willing to say "lynch me" instead of Yvonne..this again makes no sense. Lynching Yvonne gives us a lot more information than your lynch, and you know this.

[cicero]

Fonz, read the thread, it was either a slip or you were coaching

CIcero, I didnt think you were scum because you defended adele. I am not being OMGUSy, your lack of logic, your change of heart, and your posts have eluded to your alignment. I think you and yvonne are scum, yes, but I dont think you are the right play. One of the reason I am not the right play is because I obviously made night actions both nights...I think you did too. Yvonne there is no way to tell. You keep mentioning that you might change your mind on Yvonne (given another reread), but you are willing to say "lynch me" instead of Yvonne..this again makes no sense. Lynching Yvonne gives us a lot more information than your lynch, and you know this.

Sorry. How does lynching Yvonne-scum give us a lot more information than lynching Cicero-scum? I'm honestly not clear.

I think the right play is the person who plays scummiest. Your nightchoice was the scummiest, and your arguments between you and yvonne demonstrates a clear double standard which has already been discussed.

Also, and this is the main point: Even if Yvonne DOES turn up scum, it doesn't mean she isn't getting railroaded. By this I mean, I don't think the case against her is very strong and the day was getting dangerously close to "shrug" kill Yvonne. DGB's case, for example, was based on a huge number of assumptions that all turned out to be wrong. (Honestly, DGB in this game so far alone, compare your suspicions to the outcome and tell me what your honest opinion of your spidey sense is.)

If after all this, the case against Yvonne stands and the one against you is unpersuasive to all others, fine. But we're finally getting some good chat going. I'm challenging you and pushing you. I'm calling bullshit on weak cases. I'm gonna keep at it. I'm honestly not worried about being lynched. I *am* worried about a mislynch.

When I went back and read Yvonne, I expected to come back with the idea that she was probably scum. My gut on Yvonne has, throughout the game, felt like she might be scum. On my re-read, this feels like the railroading of a newish player that people aren't familiar with. Don't worry I'll still push her and I reserve the right to change my mind (as always. played with me before?), but at the moment, on re-read, I don't find her play very scummy. At the same time, I found your jailkeeper extremely scummy. And still do. Nothing you've said since has made me think you were less scummy. But Yvonne's replies to you and DGB make me more confident that she's town. Could I be wrong? Sure! TOTALLY! This is mafia

But at this moment, I really don't think I am.

[shaft.ed]

Does this make sense to anyone? Adele, CKD and cicero are the scum. They all have an alibi based solely on CKD's action. Cic was free to make the NK while one of the watcher's is locked up. Now they can bus the hell out of one another just in case one of them is lynched. How crazy is this idea?

OK back to work, just had one of those "just maybe" moments and wanted to share.

[shaft.ed]

one of the watcher's is locked up.

Always good to find inconsistancies in your own argument before you post them.

[curiouskarmadog]

omfg, this game is giving me an ulcer

that scenerio would work, shafted, if Yvonne was scum instead of Adele...thoughts shafted? Also can you please post your current thoughts on Yvonne again (or a post number if they havent change from a previous post)?

I think both are scum..

this game really needs to hear from shea's replacement, Adele, and fonz....

[shaft.ed]

CKD while I can get quick jabs up, I'm not having time right now to do massive rereads or analysis.

Yvonne handled DGB's attacks from yesterday quite well a lot of them centered around two people who have turned up dead (note that means it's unlikely for DGB to be scum if Yvonne is town as DGB's was setting up Yvonne for a lynch but the choice of Mathcam ruined this possibility). But afterall they were from DGB so I'm not sure how much weight to put into that. Gorgon did the same yesterday. I am still quite concerned about her claim reluctance and not sure if she answered your question about who she was hoping to catch by holding out. But overall I need to look for more reasons than the reluctance. The only reason for her to be reluctant is if she put in the kill, and I really don't see the scum sending out a watcher to make the kill unless it was needed due to other roles, and the fact that they knew she could go last.

And that scenario would work with Yvonne or Adele as scum, just Adele is a little more dangerous since it leaves a watcher out in the open, but Mathcam was an unlikely target for watching. I think it's even better with Adele because the whole group gets a clearly confirmed alibi.

[DrippingGoofball]

I think it's even better with Adele because the whole group gets a clearly confirmed alibi.

I'm not sure I get this.

[Seol]

Cogito Ergo Sum replaces TSQ, effective immediately.

[curiouskarmadog]

thank you for joining..looking forward to your thoughts.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

I'm on page 13.

Three completely irrelevant things I've noticed:
Mathcam said he wanted to minimize X-Y, when he clearly wanted to minimize X+Y.
Gorgon is scum. (Also: dead now.)
TSQ wrote "extend" when he meant "extent".

I'm not liking JDodge(now DrippingGoofball) so far.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Also, Adele uses confusing abbreviations.

FTL means faster than light to me, foremost, not for the loss.

And I don't know what ETIJ means. ET in Jeans? Eat that in jest?

I'm reading TSQ as pro-town. Which is pretty rare, so worth mentioning, but useless all the same.

[Adele]

Does this make sense to anyone? Adele, CKD and cicero are the scum. They all have an alibi based solely on CKD's action. Cic was free to make the NK while one of the watcher's is locked up. Now they can bus the hell out of one another just in case one of them is lynched. How crazy is this idea?

OK back to work, just had one of those "just maybe" moments and wanted to share.

I don't understand whether this comes from any events or whether it's "this would be a really bad situation for the town, therefore we respond to it as worst case scenario" - could you clarify? Because these sort of speculations confuse the Heck outta me.

CES, ETIJ may have been "even though in jest" - was I agreeing with a sentiment espoused as a joke? I'm not sure though. Note to self: if making words up, try at least to remember them.

mod: could we have a VC please.

(Also, I saw Juno, it was

excellent

, talk to you soon)

There is a

real

danger that we're in LyLo (btw, substantially higher risk than if I'd not been locked up last night, as I'd've been able to motivate linderman, but whatever). Personally at this point I think it's extremely likely that both Yvonne and CKD are scum; I currently think that each of them is

probably

scum. As such, I'm up for a lynch on either on of them, but recent exchanges make me happier with a lynch on CKD. I await the VC before voting, though - don't want to hammer just yet, when we've got cogito weighing in.

[curiouskarmadog]

Who was the first one to tell you guys we were probably at lylo?

sweet christ you guys are really wrong here? I am at a loss why you think the best lynch of the day is a guy who is confirmed making night actions both nights. At least dont you want to lynch someone who at least COULD HAVE submitted a kill? There are 3 scum here, I wonder who is pushing for my lynch?

Well meet me half way...if you think I am scum and you think I am bussing Yvonne, can we please lynch her..on the freaking off chance that telling the truth?

Adele, your thoughts on why Cicero voted Yvonne, then once conversation has started to revolved around my lynching he now thinks I am scum and Yvonne must be town? Adele, your thoughts on Fonz's "slip up" and Yvonne's claim following?

[curiouskarmadog]

edit: "freaking off chance that I am telling the truth"?

since no