Mini 533: Something wicked this way comes! Game over!

[Skruffs]

Zeek : Explain why you think I am partners with Soupfly? Other than because we seem to be the two easiest scapegoats you have found for hammering DS yesterady?

If you intended to claim at all, why did you 'wait' until after the hammer? You are saying both that there's no reason to and also that there was 'no oppurtunity' to - what would have been an 'oppurtunity' for you to claim, day one?
Don't you think it should have been when you used your role to try and discredit another player?

[geraintm]

and this MS/zeek pairing is just plain weird...never come across two players like it. they make me think of the coen brotehrs, each finishing the others sentences

He said that he thought DS was scum... does that answer your question??

Did you read the Michel quote ABOVE that line you quoted? (it was in the SAME post)

yes. i was selectivly quoting you to show how i consider you two to be Joel and Ethan
and zeek, i know you can't see that you have done anything wrong, but please give the other players some credit if they find your miller claim suspicous. there are reasons why mafia would claim miller. soupfly i think has summed it up well enough in post 421

Yes, this is exactly what I did... I prevented the cop from investigating me.

So how is this anything BUT pro-town??

you must see yourself that scum wouldn't mind being in your posistion, preventing the cop from investigating them, don't you?

and re OGML, didn't i say in my posting why i thought i voted for him at the time?

[Lowell]

I'm still here. I'll have comments when life settles down a bit in a few days.

[MichelSableheart]

Michel - If you didn't believe the jester theory, and you knew that zeek was probably misguided about it and KNEW that he was going to hammer immediately if given the chance, you should have unvoted. You are claiming information that you seem to have been pretending not to have realized day one. This is scummy.

I should have unvoted, yes, to allow DS the chance to explain himself. Unfortunately, however, should isn't would, and the best course of action was far from obvious. DS had said he would only explain himself at L-1, so taking him from L-1 felt counterproductive. Besides, because I didn't believe DS' vanilla townie claim and believed him to be scum, I didn't mind him getting hammered very much. I did not play optimally there, and am rightly attacked for it. If you decide not to believe my explanation, there's not much I can do.

TheSweatPantsNinja continually told us "DS is not scummy" on Day 1 despite DS's play AND the fact that DS later admitted that he played scummy on purpose to try to get a bandwagon against him (unfortunately he didn't factor in that when you ASK to go to L-1 generally townies become suspicious of you and vote for you too, so you end up not outing scum but rather digging a hole for the town - which has happened). As I said before, I felt maybe this was an attempt of scum who knew DS was a townie and about to be lynched to try to appear more pro-town by being able to say "I told you so" after the fact. Also, TSPN has generally shown no interest in going after "likely" scum (QuickBen and Skruffs) and rather goes after other players such as myself, Michel, and Lowell (he's really been going after Lowell the whole game if you look at it... this makes me doubt Lowell's role in the mafia because of that.) Therefore, based on TSPN's interaction with other players (and his opportunistic vote early on Day 2), I'd say he is LIKELY to be scum.

I definately don't agree with your read of TSpN, Zeek. If you look at TSpN's posts during day 1, and then at the explanation DS gave for his behaviour during twilight, you'll see the two match perfectly. Though it could be that TSpN is indeed scum going for an "I told you so", I think it's also quite likely that TSpN is a pro-town player who had a good read on the situation.

As far as him not going after "likely" scum is concerned... So he disagrees with you on who's likely scum. Townies will disagree amongst each other too. In general, TSpN gives good reasoning for his suspicions, and he is willing to back of once something else becomes more likely. His suspicion of you is logical, his suspicion of me is healthy and I agree with his suspicion of Lowell.

geraintm/Petunho/OGML have sat back and been relatively under the radar... I admit I need to do a bit more research on them and their voting patterns so far, but since none of them voted for the claimed townie at the beginning of Day 2, and none were greatly involved in Day 1, there's not much that stands out to make me suspicious of them yet.

That makes the accusations of OMGUS justified. According to this piece of text here, you have not been suspicious of anyone who was not on your wagon at the beginning of day 2. Extremely bad play. If it's unlikely that all scum were on the DS bandwagon at the end of day 1, it's even more unlikely all scum were voting you early day 2.

Oh, and can we prod lowell again? Its been over a week since he's posted anything longer than a post saying he was going to post? Also, can we (the players) pressure him to the point where he's forced to play the game?

I'm affraid pressuring him to the point where he's forced to play the game may be difficult. Suppose we bring him within lynching distance. Then we must be willing to lynch him when he does not participate. Also, when he does participate, we'll have to pull our votes of him to go after more likely targets, lifting the pressure and allowing him to lurk again. We can only try if we, as the town, are willing to lynch him for not participating enough. And unfortunately, one more mislynch will bring us in Lylo unless something special happens.

? my vote was my own decision, noone forced me. sensfen did not convicne me at all, sensfen just posted the post of DS that would have triggered my vote without sensfen.

Your post # 118 is basically "I agree with SensFan. Vote." If he did not convince you, you are still following his lead.

OhGodMyLife, why is Lowell more suspicious than either of the two "sides" which seem to have formed (me/Michel vs Skruffs/TSPN)?

I see no reason why everyone in the town should focus solely on this debate. That would allow way too many players to get away with way too many suspicious things, IMO.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

This post also fills me with kittens and rainbows, except for this part:

I'm affraid pressuring him to the point where he's forced to play the game may be difficult. Suppose we bring him within lynching distance. Then we must be willing to lynch him when he does not participate. Also, when he does participate, we'll have to pull our votes of him to go after more likely targets, lifting the pressure and allowing him to lurk again.

I should be clear: I am willing to push lowell up to lynching distance on inactivity, and if he does not respond/is replaced, and then does not play in a satisfactory manner, I would be willing to lynch. I'm probably significantly more hawkish on lowell than everyone else, but that is what I'm willing to do.

[ZeekLTK]

*bolded numbers are mine:

1.

As far as him not going after "likely" scum is concerned... So he disagrees with you on who's likely scum. Townies will disagree amongst each other too. In general, TSpN gives good reasoning for his suspicions, and he is willing to back of once something else becomes more likely. His suspicion of you is logical, his suspicion of me is healthy and I agree with his suspicion of Lowell.

geraintm/Petunho/OGML have sat back and been relatively under the radar... I admit I need to do a bit more research on them and their voting patterns so far, but since none of them voted for the claimed townie at the beginning of Day 2, and none were greatly involved in Day 1, there's not much that stands out to make me suspicious of them yet.

2.

That makes the accusations of OMGUS justified. According to this piece of text here, you have not been suspicious of anyone who was not on your wagon at the beginning of day 2. Extremely bad play. If it's unlikely that all scum were on the DS bandwagon at the end of day 1, it's even more unlikely all scum were voting you early day 2.

Oh, and can we prod lowell again? Its been over a week since he's posted anything longer than a post saying he was going to post? Also, can we (the players) pressure him to the point where he's forced to play the game?

3.

I'm affraid pressuring him to the point where he's forced to play the game may be difficult. Suppose we bring him within lynching distance. Then we must be willing to lynch him when he does not participate. Also, when he does participate, we'll have to pull our votes of him to go after more likely targets, lifting the pressure and allowing him to lurk again. We can only try if we, as the town, are willing to lynch him for not participating enough. And unfortunately, one more mislynch will bring us in Lylo unless something special happens.

OhGodMyLife, why is Lowell more suspicious than either of the two "sides" which seem to have formed (me/Michel vs Skruffs/TSPN)?

4.

I see no reason why everyone in the town should focus solely on this debate. That would allow way too many players to get away with way too many suspicious things, IMO.

1.

Okay, but you are voting for Skruffs too, so obviously you find Skruffs to be one of the scummiest players as well. So does it not strike you as odd that TSPN won't even question Skruff's play?

2.

I see the situation as this. You pointed out (in #3) that if we mislynch we are in a Lynch or Lose the following day. So, we need to give ourselves the greatest chance to catch scum.

From my point of view - I am a claimed townie (well, I'm a known townie to me, but just "claimed" to everyone else) who got 4 relatively quick votes to start the day. I was a very easy target for scum to push for a mislynch. So I believe there is at least one scum who was part of that (if not more). Therefore, I think it will be easiest for us to catch scum if we focus on those players who were on the bandwagon against me rather than try to comb through the entire town. I'm not saying I think OGML/Petunho/geraintm are certainly townies, but they were not involved in the bandwagon against a claimed townie, so I think it'll be easier to find scum by narrowing our current suspects down to highly likely suspects - which these 3 (and Lowell) do not fit into. Once we lynch a scum today, then we will have more "wiggle room" and then we can explore the entire town, but I think it will be easier to find scum out of a group of 4 people where there is a very high chance that AT LEAST one of them is scum, if not more - as opposed to trying to find scum out of all 10 players left.

3.

Since Lowell was not involved in that bandwagon, and is therefore less likely to be scum than someone who was, I am definitely NOT willing to lynch him just to force him to be active.

4.

Like I said for #2, I think we stand more to gain by narrowing our suspects down to a likely group of scum (Skruffs, TSPN, QuickBen, and soupfly) and finding them there, so I would at least like OGML's opinion on the debate.

I think right now it is 7 town vs 3 mafia. If this is the case, with 6 needed to lynch, we need practically every townie to vote correctly, and that won't happen if some of them are just ignoring major events in the game (not saying that I am sure OGML is even a townie, but if he is I'd still like to know why he is voting Lowell and hasn't weighed in on the current debate).

---

to the top of the page - Skruffs, where did I ever say you and soupfly were working together?

[Skruffs]

3.

I'm affraid pressuring him to the point where he's forced to play the game may be difficult. Suppose we bring him within lynching distance. Then we must be willing to lynch him when he does not participate. Also, when he does participate, we'll have to pull our votes of him to go after more likely targets, lifting the pressure and allowing him to lurk again. We can only try if we, as the town, are willing to lynch him for not participating enough. And unfortunately, one more mislynch will bring us in Lylo unless something special happens.

A) Because this plan worked SO well with Disciple Slayer
B) There are 10 players alive; if he is lynched, and is not mafia, that brings us to 9. If, as you seem to know, the mafia didn't commit the kill last night, and *do* so tonight, then we go into tomorrow with 7. That would be LYLO if there is a 3 man mafia team. Again, somehow, you seem to *know* this.
(For the record, while three man scum teams are common, they are not the rule; both of my minis have had a 2 man scum team.)



Zeek:

"It doesn't matter if I didn't explain exactly WHY I didn't believe his claim. The fact was, in several posts, I said I didn't."

But it *should* have mattered to you; it would be FAR too easy for you to have explained your situation before you lynched him. FAR TOO EASY, and would have been pro-town. Instead, you decided to wait until the very post you hammer him to explain your reasoning. If it was not important enough to say BEFORE You lynched him for claiming townie, then WHY was it important for you to say WHILE you hammered him? Most likely, with a bit of introspection, it would be because you *knew* that the reasoning was flawed. You *had* to wait until after the lynching was irreversible before you 'revealed' your role-knowledge. I don't honestly see, as a player, why you WOULD have claimed miller AFTER you hammered someone. If you had said so BEFORE hand, one of the other townies would have confirmed the existance of them, which would have STILL been fishing, but then you would NOT have been able to hammer DS like you said you would.

"Also I looked at your wiki profile and I failed to find a game where you were miller, so what exactly are you basing your "advice" on? The part where you say "you should claim right away"... says who?"
Did you see any of my other games?
Why do I *have* to be a miller, at least once, in a forum game, to be able to say how they should play?

For the record, check out Unluckyville on WIFOM.net . The actual Miller in that game claimed in his first post on day one, and it wound up being helpful to the town, in the end, even though he did in fact get lynched eventually.

"Plus, you are completely ignoring the most important thing about my claim (and its timing), which was that I gave a guilty result up so that the cop was free to investigate someone else AND so the cop wouldn't have to out themselves to tell the town I had a guilty result.

Until you can explain how this action possibly benefits scum (and it doesn't) you have no basis to accuse me of being scum. "

It's the timing that I am suspicious of. If you were going to 'give a guilty result', you should have done so before the lynch for the day was settled. You apparently *thought* that the cop was going to investigate you, right? If you didn't, you would have claimed earlier. But you *KNEW* you were being suspicious and you *KNEW* that DS wasn't mafia, so you claimed Miller RIGHT before night in a gambit to look good and to hope that you wouldn't be lynched for it in the morning.

You *AREN'T* a confirmed Miller, DS, and your behavior fits MAFIA much more than it fits MILLER play. Just because you claimed a guilty result to be on yourself doesn't mean you are a miller. The nature of your claim, the timing, the situation in which it happened, all of those things were scummy.

Apparently I mixed up my names; you are asking people to believe that I am teamed up with TSPN, not Soupfly... although I am pretty sure you FOSsed me for not attacking soupfly with you, didn't you??

And aren't you and Michel *still* ignoring each other as possible scums?

[ZeekLTK]

Why do I *have* to be a miller, at least once, in a forum game, to be able to say how they should play?

For the record, check out Unluckyville on WIFOM.net . The actual Miller in that game claimed in his first post on day one, and it wound up being helpful to the town, in the end, even though he did in fact get lynched eventually.

"Plus, you are completely ignoring the most important thing about my claim (and its timing), which was that I gave a guilty result up so that the cop was free to investigate someone else AND so the cop wouldn't have to out themselves to tell the town I had a guilty result.

Until you can explain how this action possibly benefits scum (and it doesn't) you have no basis to accuse me of being scum. "

It's the timing that I am suspicious of. If you were going to 'give a guilty result', you should have done so before the lynch for the day was settled. You apparently *thought* that the cop was going to investigate you, right? If you didn't, you would have claimed earlier. But you *KNEW* you were being suspicious and you *KNEW* that DS wasn't mafia, so you claimed Miller RIGHT before night in a gambit to look good and to hope that you wouldn't be lynched for it in the morning.

You *AREN'T* a confirmed Miller, DS, and your behavior fits MAFIA much more than it fits MILLER play. Just because you claimed a guilty result to be on yourself doesn't mean you are a miller. The nature of your claim, the timing, the situation in which it happened, all of those things were scummy.

Apparently I mixed up my names; you are asking people to believe that I am teamed up with TSPN, not Soupfly... although I am pretty sure you FOSsed me for not attacking soupfly with you, didn't you??

And aren't you and Michel *still* ignoring each other as possible scums?

Because you can have all the theories you want as to how a role SHOULD be played, but until you play it you can't say for sure. I know that a cop should be suspicious enough to not get nightkilled, but also avoid getting lynched, but I've never played as a cop so I don't know exactly how that can be accomplished. I'd say it is the same as miller... you know that a miller should claim on Day 1 but you have to play it to be able to figure out when.

Yeah, that guy claimed too early and he got lynched, so how is that a good example? In the last game I played in as miller I claimed at a perfect time and therefore not only helped the town win, but I survived to the end. I feel like I am more useful to the town alive rather than dead, so I wanted to try to claim at the best possible time again. It did last time, but this time that opportunity never came up, so I at least made sure to claim before we went to night.

Also, since I felt DS was NOT a townie (I said this NUMEROUS times on Day 1), why would I claim before he got lynched? All that would do is take suspicion off a player that I believed was ANTI-town (a jester is anti-town BTW) and put it on me (a PRO-town player) because people are always suspicious of miller claims. I don't see how shifting suspicious from an anti-town player to a pro-town player is in any way good for the town.

And no, as a miller I did not "*KNOW*" DS's affilation. You, as mafia, did, which is why SensFan pushed the bandwagon so hard.

I already explained the Michel thing.

I am not suspicious of him because he prevented a mislynch.

He prevented it because he believes I am a miller, which means he believes that I am pro-town. So why would he be suspicious of a player with a pro-town role?

However, neither you nor TSPN has done anything to warrant not being suspicious of, yet neither of you seem to find the other suspicious at all. The only thing that would warrant this attitude would be if you are scum buddies, where naturally you would not want to attack each other and would prefer to go after pro-town roles such as myself instead.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

Or, maybe, just maybe,

I don't think he's scum.

Also. What would something to warrant "not being suspicious" entail, exactly? What have

you

done that doesn't warrant suspicion?

And you never answered my question: since you suspect skruffs for "leading" the DS bandwagon, and me for speaking against the DS bandwagon, what was the pro-town attitude toward DS, exactly?

[Skruffs]

Me being suspicious of TSPN would involve me saying that my suspicions about you and michel are wrong, because you guys are the size of baluga whales on my scum meter. I say this coming 'fresh' out of mafia 499, where the two of you were acting exactly the way pwayne and gorgon were acting. You are suspicious of me, soupfly, TSPN, and if i remember correctly, geraint and possibly lowell as well.

Call me a bloodhound, but i smell blood on your hands, and you asking me to ignore that and look at the people you are pointingat, it, well, it won't work until i'm convinced it's not blood. Expect a long fight.

[Lowell]

The skruffs attack on zeek is a bit bizairre. I dont' quite get what he's telling me that I don't already know. Still, he gets points for gusto. I don't buy him as scum.

[ZeekLTK]

Or, maybe, just maybe,

I don't think he's scum.

Also. What would something to warrant "not being suspicious" entail, exactly? What have

you

done that doesn't warrant suspicion?

And you never answered my question: since you suspect skruffs for "leading" the DS bandwagon, and me for speaking against the DS bandwagon, what was the pro-town attitude toward DS, exactly?

Yeah but you have no reason to NOT think he is scum.

I've stated why I think Michel is town - because he prevented the scum from mislynching a claimed townie on Day 2.

Skruffs has:
-Lead a bandwagon against a (now known) townie on Day 1.
-Cast two votes (one as each player who played in that role) against a claimed townie on Day 2.
-Twisted and misrepresented facts to attack players.

So with all this in mind, how is he not even slightly suspicious to you? The only explanation is that you are his scum buddy and you prefer to attack townies instead of scum.

Me being suspicious of TSPN would involve me saying that my suspicions about you and michel are wrong, because you guys are the size of baluga whales on my scum meter.

That's a pretty bad reason. So what are you going to do when I come up town? Then you have NOWHERE to go during a Lynch or Lose... that's not a very good situation to put yourself in if you are town. Of course, you don't care about this, since you are not town, but I'm just saying...

I have said what my tactic is for today, because as a townie it's important to share as much information with the town as possible. I believe scum were trying to push my mislynch at the beginning of the day. Therefore I am looking for scum in those who voted for me. And if we do mislynch today, for me all that does is increase the odds of hitting scum the next day (I'm certain one of the people who voted for me is scum, so if we lynch one of them and they were town, then that just narrows it down even further).

What is your tactic? You are ONLY attacking a claimed townie AND the person who the claimed townie feels is likely to be town. So what happens when that claimed townie comes up as town? Yeah, didn't think of that part of the plan huh? I guess, as scum, you were probably just going to go after whoever you tricked into hammering me to mislynch them and win the game.

Plus, being suspicious of TSPN has nothing to do with being suspicious of me. If you even consider that I am a townie then how are you not suspicious of the other people who are attacking me? Soupfly and QuickBen were suspicious of others who may have had alternative motives for voting against me (they both attacked each other as well as me in this day). So that strikes the question I've been asking - Why are you and TSPN so trusting of each other? Or so tunnelvisioned that you are ONLY going after me? It doesn't make sense if either of you are townies.

Let's look at the facts:

Throughout this game I have gone after (aka voted for): DS, Lowell, DS again, soupfly, QuickBen, soupfly again, Skruffs, and while I haven't been able to vote for him, I think I've made it clear that if I had 2 votes the 2nd would be against TSPN.

Contrast that to:

SensFan only voted for DS and me.
Skruffs has only voted for me.

TSPN has voted for only Lowell and me (and he briefly threw a vote on SensFan early on Day 1 that he never spoke of again - which is very similar to how scum play; they vote for a teammate early on but don't push it so that it's not dangerous of actually starting a bandwagon and they can point to it later to distance themselves).

The two of you combined have only "really" voted (I don't count TSPN's vote for SensFan as a vote because it was one post and he never followed up on it) for three people in this game (one who has turned out to be townie and another who is a claimed townie) and have hardly questioned anyone else (okay you've questioned Michel too, but ONLY because he has stuck up for me against your mislynch bandwagon). You aren't scum hunting, you are just scum who are going after the "easiest" targets.

--------

*TSPN: DS admitted he played scummy/poorly/whatever you want to take out of his admission - but he did not play pro-town. He said he played that way to purposely get a bandwagon against him. The best pro-town play IMO was suspect him of being anti-town due to his scummy play, but since he asked to be put on L-1, refuse to do so until he explained himself (especially why he would need to be at L-1 to do so). Basically, the town should have kept an eye on him, remained suspicious of his motives, kept pressuring him to explain, but NOT allowed him to get into the L-1 position he was asking for.

[MichelSableheart]

1. Okay, but you are voting for Skruffs too, so obviously you find Skruffs to be one of the scummiest players as well. So does it not strike you as odd that TSPN won't even question Skruff's play?

Not really no. Skruffs attacks on me, combined with limited time, have prevented me so far from posting a good case against Skruffs. I would find it suspicious if he rejected my case based on extremely poor reasoning, but I don't think it's very suspicious that he disagrees with me on Skruffs.

2. I see the situation as this. You pointed out (in #3) that if we mislynch we are in a Lynch or Lose the following day. So, we need to give ourselves the greatest chance to catch scum.

From my point of view - I am a claimed townie (well, I'm a known townie to me, but just "claimed" to everyone else) who got 4 relatively quick votes to start the day. I was a very easy target for scum to push for a mislynch. So I believe there is at least one scum who was part of that (if not more). Therefore, I think it will be easiest for us to catch scum if we focus on those players who were on the bandwagon against me rather than try to comb through the entire town. I'm not saying I think OGML/Petunho/geraintm are certainly townies, but they were not involved in the bandwagon against a claimed townie, so I think it'll be easier to find scum by narrowing our current suspects down to highly likely suspects - which these 3 (and Lowell) do not fit into. Once we lynch a scum today, then we will have more "wiggle room" and then we can explore the entire town, but I think it will be easier to find scum out of a group of 4 people where there is a very high chance that AT LEAST one of them is scum, if not more - as opposed to trying to find scum out of all 10 players left.

Think about tomorrow. We'll have to look at all players during some point in the game. All work you do now will help when it's needed.

A) Because this plan worked SO well with Disciple Slayer

Wait... You are questioning my remark that a certain plan is unlikely to work on the basis that a similar plan didn't work on day 1? What are you trying to say there?

B) There are 10 players alive; if he is lynched, and is not mafia, that brings us to 9. If, as you seem to know, the mafia didn't commit the kill last night, and *do* so tonight, then we go into tomorrow with 7. That would be LYLO if there is a 3 man mafia team. Again, somehow, you seem to *know* this.
(For the record, while three man scum teams are common, they are not the rule; both of my minis have had a 2 man scum team.)

Even with just a single mafia group of 3, it would be Lylo. Better safe then sorry, I say. If we assume that we are in Lylo, and it turns out we have an additional day, good for us. However, if we don't take the possibility of Lylo into account, we might end up with a nasty surprise when the game ends unexpected.

And aren't you and Michel *still* ignoring each other as possible scums?

I believe Zeek to be pro-town, and have explained my reasoning. I think it is unlikely enough that Zeek is scum to ignore the possibility for now.

The skruffs attack on zeek is a bit bizairre. I dont' quite get what he's telling me that I don't already know. Still, he gets points for gusto. I don't buy him as scum.

I think I'm misunderstanding you here. You don't buy skruffs as scum, yet you're voting him?

*TSPN: DS admitted he played scummy/poorly/whatever you want to take out of his admission - but he did not play pro-town. He said he played that way to purposely get a bandwagon against him. The best pro-town play IMO was suspect him of being anti-town due to his scummy play, but since he asked to be put on L-1, refuse to do so until he explained himself (especially why he would need to be at L-1 to do so). Basically, the town should have kept an eye on him, remained suspicious of his motives, kept pressuring him to explain, but NOT allowed him to get into the L-1 position he was asking for.

The best pro-town play would be to read DS correctly: as a townie who was trying to lure scum into voting for him. TSpN did exactly that.

[Skruffs]

Skruffs has:
-Lead a bandwagon against a (now known) townie on Day 1.

I WASN'T IN THE GAME DAY ONE!!!

-Cast two votes (one as each player who played in that role) against a claimed townie on Day 2.

YOU ARE A MILLER REMEMBER? YOU HAVE TO GET YOUR FACTS STRAIGHT IF

YOU ARE GOING TO FAKE CLAIM!

-Twisted and misrepresented facts to attack players.

Unlike you, who ignore and misrepresent facts to LYNCH players, right?

Seriously: You lynched DS for being a townie in a game you were sure there were no townies in, claimed miller, and now all of a sudden you

aren't a miller at all, but a townie

, and since you've "said" you are a townie, EVEN after claiming that you were a miller, I'm supposed to believe it.

Re: My vote on you: I have mentioned several times that I would put my vote on Michel. However, of the two, you are most likely to be scum. You being scum would also validate him being scum in my eyes, it's not so much the other way around.

Michel:
- I am insinuating that you want to put Lowell 'within lynching range' so that Zeek (or your other partner) can quick hammer again today,

JUST LIKE YESTERDAY

, with DS. Remember how you left him at -1? When you know Zeek, a very active player, intended to hammer?

- "Even with just a single mafia group of 3, it would be Lylo. Better safe then sorry, I say. If we assume that we are in Lylo, and it turns out we have an additional day, good for us. However, if we don't take the possibility of Lylo into account, we might end up with a nasty surprise when the game ends unexpected. "

That's what you say now, but what you ORIGINALLY said was:
"And unfortunately,

one more mislynch will bring us in Lylo

unless something special happens. "
This implies DIRECT KNOWLEDGE of the mafia's size.
I add that onto your 'knowledge' that the mafia didn't try to kill Yvonne last night, which you similarly tried to cover up, and I am left with a pretty confident belief that your flaw in playing mafia is scum is that you forget to think 'like a townie', and accidentally slip knowledge.


Come on guys, And I mean everyone. I'm convinced enough that Michel and Zeek are scum to bet my own life (if I even have on) in this game on it tomorrow if I am wrong tonight. I am being as honest as I can be here.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

Zeek. . . whatever. We're just going over the same ground over and over and over again. I. Don't. Believe. You. I happen to believe skruffs because he's saying things that make sense to me.

The skruffs attack on zeek is a bit bizairre. I dont' quite get what he's telling me that I don't already know. Still, he gets points for gusto. I don't buy him as scum.

I think I'm misunderstanding you here. You don't buy skruffs as scum, yet you're voting him?

Seriously. Can we lynch him

now

? Like, what else does he have to do to get some votes?

[ZeekLTK]

Skruffs has:
-Lead a bandwagon against a (now known) townie on Day 1.

I WASN'T IN THE GAME DAY ONE!!!

-Cast two votes (one as each player who played in that role) against a claimed townie on Day 2.

YOU ARE A MILLER REMEMBER? YOU HAVE TO GET YOUR FACTS STRAIGHT IF

YOU ARE GOING TO FAKE CLAIM!

-Twisted and misrepresented facts to attack players.

Unlike you, who ignore and misrepresent facts to LYNCH players, right?

Seriously: You lynched DS for being a townie in a game you were sure there were no townies in, claimed miller, and now all of a sudden you

aren't a miller at all, but a townie

, and since you've "said" you are a townie, EVEN after claiming that you were a miller, I'm supposed to believe it.

Re: My vote on you: I have mentioned several times that I would put my vote on Michel. However, of the two, you are most likely to be scum. You being scum would also validate him being scum in my eyes, it's not so much the other way around.

Uhm... miller = townie.

I claimed my role of miller, a miller is a

pro-town role

aka I am a "claimed townie".

Come on guys, And I mean everyone. I'm convinced enough that Michel and Zeek are scum to bet my own life (if I even have on) in this game on it tomorrow if I am wrong tonight. I am being as honest as I can be here.

^^^

Appeal to Emotion

- "An appeal to emotion is a particularly devious sort of fallacious argument, particularly in a game of unknowns such as Mafia."

[ZeekLTK]

Also, your argument of "I wasn't in the game on Day 1!!!" is completely invalid. SensFan had the same role as you. You have yet to defend his play on Day 1. So this is your chance. Tell me - Why do you think he went after DS so hard? And why was what he did not scummy?

This question has nothing to do with my role or my actions so if you want to try to clear yourself, don't bring them up in your answer.

[MichelSableheart]

I WASN'T IN THE GAME DAY ONE!!!

You were, but back then, your name was SensFan. Same role, same alignement.

- I am insinuating that you want to put Lowell 'within lynching range' so that Zeek (or your other partner) can quick hammer again today, JUST LIKE YESTERDAY, with DS. Remember how you left him at -1? When you know Zeek, a very active player, intended to hammer?

And you have undoubtely noticed that I was responding to a plan of TSpN? And that I was arguing that that plan would be difficult to make work? [sarcasm]Yeah, I'm definately trying to make people follow that plan so that Lowell will get in lynching range there[/sarcasm].

That's what you say now, but what you ORIGINALLY said was:
"And unfortunately, one more mislynch will bring us in Lylo unless something special happens. "
This implies DIRECT KNOWLEDGE of the mafia's size.
I add that onto your 'knowledge' that the mafia didn't try to kill Yvonne last night, which you similarly tried to cover up, and I am left with a pretty confident belief that your flaw in playing mafia is scum is that you forget to think 'like a townie', and accidentally slip knowledge.

I have one completed game as mafia: Newbie 389. Feel free to read through it. I would be extremely surprised if you still believe I "forget to think 'like a townie'" as scum afterwards. I would argue that, as scum, I would be more aware of how a townie would act then if I'm pro-town, because I would have to make sure to look pro-town instead of actually being pro-town.

What I originally said is "And unfortunately, one more mislynch will bring us in Lylo

unless something special happens

."

Three mafia is the common number in mini normal games, especially when the town has a couple of powerroles. I haven't played or read any mini normal in which the town has powerroles but there were only two mafia members. I admit that I wasn't particulary thinking about the possibility of there only being two mafia members when I made post #428, but I did make a general remark that it isn't certain tomorrow will be lylo (the "unless something special happens" at the end of the sentence). A group of only two mafia seems special enough to be part of that clause.

Seriously. Can we lynch him now? Like, what else does he have to do to get some votes?

There's a good chance he's mafia, and if we don't lynch skruffs today, I would like to see Lowell hanging. However, I'm convinced Skruffs is scum, and believe there is a good possibility we take out an entire anti-town killing group if we lynch him. Which makes Skruffs a better lynch candidate then Lowell.

First, there's SensFan's behaviour during the day 1 wagon. Disciple Slayer was a townie who was behaving extremely scummy. Which made him the perfect target for scum. They can all out push for a mislynch without appearing too scummy. I have no trouble whatsoever imagining scum behaving like SensFan did. Of course, SensFan could be just a misguided pro-town player, but he was all out pushing for the lynch of a townie, which is something to keep in mind.

Then, during the night, YvonneSeer was killed. Which seems like a rather strange choice to me. Even knowing that YvonneSeer was the cop, I don't read that in her posts. YvonneSeer didn't read as shinily pro-town, nor as a huge threat to the scum. As far as I can see, there's only one noteworthy thing she did: have a big argument with SensFan about how likely it was that DS was a jester. An argument in which SensFan was unable to convince her. To me, one of the most likely reasons for the kill of Yvonne seems to be that SensFan couldn't convince YvonneSeer to follow his lead.

Then, there is SensFan jumping on the Zeek wagon early during day 2. Again, Zeek's play during the end of day 1 was extremely poor, making him (assuming he is pro-town, what I believe him to be) an ideal target for a scum bandwagon. And guess what? Again SensFan follows the ideal scum play: he jumps on an easy bandwagon that's likely to go to lynch if it's pushed enough. And his reasoning for his vote is rather poor. Take a look at post #156 by SensFan:

It really is, though. His whole post is basically summed up with "I wouldn't have done that if I were scum. It makes no sense for scum to do something like that, therefore it is not scummy."

That is WIFOM by definition.

So basically, SensFan is attacking Zeek because SensFan believes it's more likely that Zeek scum does something Zeek believes to be pro-town, then that Zeek town does something Zeek believes is pro-town.

After that, we don't hear much from SensFan anymore, and soon he is replaced by Skruffs. Skruffs game summary when he replaces in is reasonable, except that it does not take into account whatsoever the explanations Zeek has given for his actions. Skruffs simply dismisses those explanations as bad play, without even pondering whether or not Zeek town is likely to make such a bad play.

To me, however, the most important remark in Skruffs post #274 is a single line:

DS is dead and town, as is Yvonne. Almonds = Poison (Cyanide), which is further confirmed by the aparent lack of trauma to her body.

I simply do not understand how a pro-town player would make this remark without speculating on what it can mean. If Skruffs is pro-town, and believed the poison was merely flavour, he wouldn't have brought it up. If Skruffs is pro-town and believed the poison to have game relevance, he would have speculated about that relevance. For example, suppose he believed in a poisoner as he described (a mafia member who can make a delayed kill that goes through doctor protection), then he would have said in post #274 something along the lines of "do we perhaps have a poisoner?". There is no reason for a pro-town player to bring up the fact that Yvonne was poisoned, without going into what that might mean. On the other hand, if Skruffs is scum, he would have more information about what happened last night. He would probably know it if there is game relevance to the use of poison. Which means that for scum, mentioning the poison is mentioning something of game relevance, even without speculating about what that relevance might be.

So how does Skruffs respond when I post my accusations? Does he respond to my speculation that there might be multiple killing groups? Does he explain why he didn't mention a poisoner (a non-normal role, btw) when he brought up the poison? Does he make an attempt to make SensFan's play look better? No, he uses the way I formulated a single sentence to launch a counterattack, and asks my questions I had already answered at that time. It's perfectly fine that he is suspicious of me, but to me it seems that he's simply trying to change the topic away from him there.

Then, as soon as someone else decides that there might be something in the case on him, he responds with OMGUS:

fos: fos: fos: zeek, lowell
Lowell, you're playing very badly. I expect the attacks from michel and zeek, but I don't see why you would align yourself so easily aand thoughtllessly with them. Looks bad on you.

I see Skruffs using the same arguments over and over, completely disregarding any attempts at explanation. For example, take a look at the fact that I didn't unvote when soupfly put DS at L-1. I originally give a short explanation on why in post #186. In post #278, I referred to #186 for an explanation. In post #349, I explain things again. So why on earth does Skruffs bring the topic up again in post #412, when he has not responded to any explanation I have given whatsoever? So I should have unvoted... Wow, I already concluded that myself in post #186, long before Skruffs joined.

[geraintm]

Then, during the night, YvonneSeer was killed. Which seems like a rather strange choice to me. Even knowing that YvonneSeer was the cop, I don't read that in her posts. YvonneSeer didn't read as shinily pro-town, nor as a huge threat to the scum. As far as I can see, there's only one noteworthy thing she did: have a big argument with SensFan about how likely it was that DS was a jester. An argument in which SensFan was unable to convince her. To me, one of the most likely reasons for the kill of Yvonne seems to be that SensFan couldn't convince YvonneSeer to follow his lead.

no way
asuming a group of 3 scum, there should be no way that an argument between one of them and a townie shoul dinfluence the 3 of them to lynch that person
i always thought the rason yvonne got singled out for a night kill was cause she was quiet. much easier to kill a quiet player because you want to leave in the vocal players because they are so much easier to get a mislynch on

[Skruffs]

Zeek, Michel, if you guys were any more transparent, I'd probably start to doubt myself about it all. You literally pick up each other's arguments in consecutive posts.

You are asking me to defend myself day one, under the assumption that me and Sensfan, because we have the same role. THat implies both that the role is special and that me and Sensfan have the exact same mindset. Considering, Zeek, how badly you are defending your own actions, day one, I think it's almost laughable that you want me to explain Sensfan's. I don't know why he plays the way he does. You accuse him of leading the DS wagon, but you yourself started and pushed it in every post. You even quick hammered him, with the intentions of blaming Soupfly for your hammer in the morning, but you have not yet criticized Michel, I think for allowing him to be at -1, if you honestly didn't WANT to hammer him. If you honestly didn't want to hammer him but did so to avoid him from hammering himself, because you didn't think there were any real vanillas because you are climing to be a miller, which is the most contrived, HORRIBLY excuse for a quick hammer I have *EVER* *ENCOUNTERED*, then SHOULDN'T you ALSO be ragging on Michel for 'forcing' you to hammer him?

To get it straight:
Sensfan's scummy cuz he led a wagon against DS - which you also did.
Soupfly is scummy for putting him at -1 - after which you promptly, unquestioningly hammered. (Incidentally, Michel left him at -1, but that's okay.)
TSPN is scummy for not being suspicious of me - though you are not suspicious of Michel at all.
DS was scummy for claiming to be a townie - but you just changed your claim to townie, then covered it up by saying miller and townie are the same thing.

Even if what you meant was that you claimed to be a pro-town player, WHY does your 'claim' mean anything to me? DS's claim meant nothing to you, did it? If you expect me to think you shouldn't be lynched because you claimed 'pro-town', then maybe you need to play a few more newbie games, it doesn't *Work* that way.

Of course not, because you have a vested interest in keepign Michel alive, and the two of you weren't smart enough to pretend to distance from each other to squiggle out of it.

Michel : I have learned that you have an excuse for everything you do. You've used enough 'excuses' to cover your mistakes that, just like the kid who says 'sorry' for stealing cookies, I have learned to ignore them. Your post 186? Should have been realized in the post where you let DS get lynched. You *never* said once during day one why DS's behavior was likely to be that of a mafiaso's, and it doesn't fit. Why would a mafia member act like that? This is the lack of curiousity I am talking about.

[OhGodMyLife]

I'm trying to follow this convoluted debate but it feels more like a homework assignment than a game I play to unwind. Will do a real read of it after work/class tonight. In the meantime, Lowell is still extremely anti-town, I'm happy with my vote on him, and I'd like to QFT TSpN's sentiment of "can we lynch him

now

?"

[soupfly]

i agree that this debate has gone on long enough...i just don't know how much more can be squeezed out of this.

i still think MSH is scum so my vote stays there. i think he's the play for today.

[ZeekLTK]

Long post

Are you even reading the thread or do you just skim for single sentences which can be viewed as slightly scummy and only read those?

Every thing you brought up or asked questions about... I can respond to by quoting previous posts in this game (to show you it's already been explained).

Yet you still fail to answer anything that is brought up of you.

You are asking me to defend myself day one, under the assumption that me and Sensfan, because we have the same role. THat implies both that the role is special and that me and Sensfan have the exact same mindset.

You accuse him of leading the DS wagon, but you yourself started and pushed it in every post.

This does not imply anything. You DO have the same role as SensFan. So, based on this, it should be easier for you to figure out why he pushed so hard for a bandwagon on Day 1. Of course, you already know. You know he was scum and wanted to get a townie lynched. But you can't tell us that, so you try to act like you have no idea what happened.

And it appears as if you do have a similar mindset. On Day 1 SensFan tried to make Yvonne seem scummy, and you did this in your "summary". On Day 2 SensFan tried to push the bandwagon against me, which you also did. You are playing very similar to how he played in all aspects of the game.

The fact that you still tried to twist what happened and somehow say I pushed the lynch "in every post" is ridiculous. After I stopped going after DS I

unvoted to put him down to L-5

. My role in the "bandwagon" was over, and if it weren't for SensFan, we would have left DS alone.

The fact still is that in this game your role has ONLY voted for two players, both who were the easiest targets at the time (DS on Day 1, me on Day 2).

Finally there is this:

DS was scummy for claiming to be a townie - but you just changed your claim to townie, then covered it up by saying miller and townie are the same thing.

Covered what up?

A Miller

(sometimes called an Outsider) is typified

as a member of the town

with an air of corruption and/or suspicion surrounding him. Thus

a Miller acts like a normal Townie in every way

except for one important feature: whenever a Cop investigates a Miller, the Moderator returns a guilty result, even though

the Miller is pro-Town.

Basically what it says is, Miller = Townie.

[ZeekLTK]

soupfly why do you think MSH is scummier than Skruffs?

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

Yeah, but just because you say it, don't make it true.

But anyway, can't we all just get along and lynch lowell? The man could claim scum and I don't think I'd find him any scummier.