Designer Mafia 2007 - Game Over, Final Scene Posted!

[the silent speaker]

Er, why am I on the prod list? I posted last Thursday, and it's Monday now.

Regardless, JDodge should die. And Shanba should explain why he has such faith in JDodge. And everyone else who wanted Nocmen lynched for his posting restriction should explain why. ZONEACE, this includes you.

[curiouskarmadog]

jesus christ..a lot has happened. So someone controls Bel, was he in the orginal sign up list? Did this occur in any other Designer games? How many times has Oman been Qfted? Is it per person or per QFT? I dont know what the fuck is going on anymore..so if dodge uses his ability tonight that confirms his role...but not his alignment right?...is there any way that Oman could be blocked from having his addition votes tomorrow?...Thyro why are you focusing on ZA..any comments on some current situations going on?

[ZONEACE]

There were (or at least appeared to be) some inconsistencies in the way NOC was posting and his claim. That gave me enough reason to want him dead. I really think lynching liars is probably a good idea in general.

also Twomz, why are you talking about a deadline lynch. THE DAY JUST STARTED. why do you want to give up and just let jdodge set at that amount til the deadline which could be weeks away.

fos twomz

its a little early to give up to the deadline.

[curiouskarmadog]

Also, has anyone seen a cult-like recruiting role, that recruits the dead?

Have never played in a designer game before...is that even possible.

[Twomz]

10 out of 16 is a lot harder to get than 9 out of 16 (besides, a lot of my games are at deadline now, and it's pretty confusing to be rezzed into this one with all that going on).

And since you weren't paying attention... I was rezzed because of Jediknights yellow shirt (unless the fact that I was wearing it when I died and when I was rezzed was just pure coincidence). If he has other shirts, and is being public about it, I doubt severely that he is scum.

@ CKD: I think I have seen a death recruiter before... but it might have been in the worse role ideas ever thread.

[curiouskarmadog]

wait..you were rezzed because of jedi's shirt (right?)..so then the dead recruiter idea should be scratched until someone else is raised from the dead..

[Twomz]

Well, it's still possible... but a recruiter who only recruits one dead player isn't gonna be that big of a problem unless it's a mafia recruiter who can get one guy in the game... but seriously, grabbing the doc? When there are no signs of a consistent town vig?

[UltimaAvalon]

Greatest Bastard Hits had a Zombie Cult where members of the Zombie Cult had to target a player each night, and those players got a death scene, were revealed as zombies, and continued playing.

I doubt thats the case here, just throwing it out there

[KaleiÐoscøpe]

Still in for Dodgy lynch.

[Shanba]

Shanba, stop role fishing please. Belgarion is controlled by another player, so that player (the main one) has 2 votes because he has control of 2 players.

No look. If that's his role, then it's unlikely he has any incredible powers we need to keep hidden from the mafia. As such, I'd like to know who his other account is, for various reasons - one, to prove he's telling the truth about his role, two to compare his behaviour with the different accounts and see if the other account is acting scummy - at the moment, we're only working with half the evidence we could be on him, and that annoys me. Also, there may be things that are more interesting in conjunction with actions from his other role - perhaps he set one to bussing and the other to trying to deflect the wagon on schism?

Regardless, JDodge should die. And Shanba should explain why he has such faith in JDodge.

I'm not sure I really get your argument.

You think he's lying about being a one-shot vig. I don't see any reason to believe this. It makes much more sense that he would kill Nocmen as a 1-shot than as a scumbag. And you can't even play the WIFOM that he killed Nocmen deliberately as scum to claim 1-shot, because he couldn't have known that killing Nocmen would have outed him, and a Nocmen kill is terrible from other perspectives (killing him makes me look better, deprives the scum of a possible mislynch). Now, it is still possible that he killed him with the gambit in mind, but it's unlikely.

And it's not like the missing kill is impossible to explain, either. I know at least one of the roles I submitted could have caused it - granted, it's unlikely, but less so than Jdodge randomly killing Nocmen.

The thing is you COULD play WIFOM on whether JDodge would kill Nocmen as scum. The evidence to me points at him being scum, and who is to say that the rest of the mafia didn't all agree on killing Nocmen and JDodge just happened to be the one who was sent in with the kill?

That's not the point, though. Why would they do it? There's a great motive for jdodge town to kill nocmen, but as far as I can see, it takes a laboured interpretation to give the mafia a motive to kill him.

How much more explanation do you want?

[mneme]

So, it's majority +1 is it? And mneme just posted a few posts up.

I'd guess it's majority. Which means at a minimum, we have 18 votes (possibly 19). That means, if we don't have funky powers messing with the majority threshold directly (ew, why) that there are two extra votes in the game.

FOS: Shamba

As the man said, stop rolefishing. I do not want to know who controlls Belgarion at this time; at best he should drop breadcrumbs so he can pick them up when him or his alt die. The only reason, berift of suspicion, for him to reveal all is so your mafia buddies can have a better choice of targets. Also, you're defending your buddy Jdodge too hard; as much as I like the idea of a two-fer, you're making it far too easy.

Death recruiter is certainly possible (in fact, the possiblity is the only reason a resurectionist isn't pretty much broken), but the indication is that Twomz's rez is due to the yellow shirt. That said, I expect Twomz to drop dead again tonight; unless he was resurected by the mafia, he's simply far too valuable (as a confirmed doc) not to kill, and it's unlikely that MoS put -too- many docs in the game.

Also, your argument for why the mafia wouldn't kill Nocmen is garbage. Both his believed role and the common wisdom re post restrictions would point to him having a useful, and probabily information-based, power. If anything, it requires chutzpah, without any evidence aside from a claim, suggest that dead protown + no other deaths + confirmation of killer of dead protown has ANYTHING other as a simplest explaination than "killer = mafia".

CKD, Oman puportedly gets +.25 of a vote for each QFT, maxing out at +2 votes. He got QFT-spammed today (by Belgarion, mostly), so he presumably gets 3 votes tomorrow. I'll note that Oman's role is more or less broken as mafia (it lets the mafia win from 5/2 town/mafia if QFT-spamming works and the town doesn't have double voters or night kills!). so I'd count him as near confirmed if he can prove his claim. (that said, could be a kill-optional SK, or maybe mafia can't QFT, only town). Plus, of course, more multi-votes than we've seen claimed would balance this out to a degree.

[Kison]

Hi,

But with that said. KScope needs to die. Lynch Him Please.

Why?!

Ren Faire was somehow related to Shanba being King

No.

Vote ZONEACE

, obviously. I'd be willing to consider shanba as well.

Why is it obvious and why Shanba?

Someone mind telling me in English why we're killing Jdodge when he can like, confirm his role and all?

Unvote

Vote : Thyroidectomy

[curiouskarmadog]

does confirming his role confirm his alignment?

[JDodge]

does confirming his role confirm his alignment?

You can look at this two ways.

1) Confirmation of role does not confirm alignment, therefore it is pointless. This is fact that I will not dispute, however it is flawed when you consider the second viewpoint. OH, THE HORROR!

2) Confirmation of claim as real or fake

can confirm alignment

, as if I were lying, you would be easily able to see that. This is doubly effective when you go onward to the next fact:

2b) Confirmation of

other

claims can also confirm other people in the same manner as fact #2. Therefore, from a

purely logical viewpoint

, it makes more sense to allow me to live to prove not only my role but possibly the roles of others.

[curiouskarmadog]

I want you to use your ability. It confirms that you are not lying, plus I think the night/day flip will give us tons of information...

[Kison]

If he kills scum, then kinda.

[Shanba]

So, it's majority +1 is it? And mneme just posted a few posts up.

I'd guess it's majority. Which means at a minimum, we have 18 votes (possibly 19). That means, if we don't have funky powers messing with the majority threshold directly (ew, why) that there are two extra votes in the game.

Again, the players I "killed" (myself and tss) do not appear on the still living list, but we are, in fact, still alive - those are the votes you're missing.

FOS: Shamba

As the man said, stop rolefishing. I do not want to know who controlls Belgarion at this time; at best he should drop breadcrumbs so he can pick them up when him or his alt die. The only reason, berift of suspicion, for him to reveal all is so your mafia buddies can have a better choice of targets.

(Your rhetoric is getting under my skin. I'll try to ignore it for now, but I may end up by getting really frustrated by the end of this post)

Well for one thing, I think it's pretty clear I

do

suspect him: I am, you know, voting him. For another, it was not fishing: I was pretty explicit that I wanted him to reveal his role. Fishing implies a subtle machination that, well, wasn't there. Thirdly, did you read my arguments why I want him to reveal? You can add to that that it will help get a meta read on him, and also give a fuller picture of his alignment. I don't like working with half the facts when it's very easy and not very costly to the town: sure, it will help narrow down power roles, but in this setup, pretty much everyone has a role anyway. Finally, read my wiki. As scum, I avoid scumtells like fishing like I avoid eating hamburgers that move.

Also, you're defending your buddy Jdodge too hard; as much as I like the idea of a two-fer, you're making it far too easy.

(grr...)

The arguments against him are fundamentally flawed, and I hate craplogic. If I disagree with something, I will say it. (As a sidenote, I tihnk the way you get me to repeat my defence of Jdodge and the accuse me of defending him too hard is disingenuous at best.)

Death recruiter is certainly possible (in fact, the possiblity is the only reason a resurectionist isn't pretty much broken), but the indication is that Twomz's rez is due to the yellow shirt. That said, I expect Twomz to drop dead again tonight; unless he was resurected by the mafia, he's simply far too valuable (as a confirmed doc) not to kill, and it's unlikely that MoS put -too- many docs in the game.

Also, your argument for why the mafia wouldn't kill Nocmen is garbage. Both his believed role and the common wisdom re post restrictions would point to him having a useful, and probabily information-based, power. If anything, it requires chutzpah, without any evidence aside from a claim, suggest that dead protown + no other deaths + confirmation of killer of dead protown has ANYTHING other as a simplest explaination than "killer = mafia".

Ok, well there are two points here. First, you claim that scum would kill Nocmen because he had a pr, second, you state that because there was only one kill and that kill was town, it was a mafia kill.

Your first point is rubbish. It starts with an assumption that prs = info roles. Honestly, I haven't seen many PRed players in non-pr games, but the one(s) I have seen have not been info roles. Maybe this was true a while back, but I certainly don't feel that is the current meta. Even on scumchat, I haven't seen it. I've seen that pr = power role, but that could be anything from double voter to unkillable, and it certainly doesn't mean anything where the setup was not designed by a single mod with full power over balance/role design.

Your conclusion doesn't even follow from this assumption, though. Say player x claims cop. However, he has been acting scummy all game, and only just avoids a lynch. As scum,

there is no way I would kill that person.

Combine the WIFOM over why he's still alive with the fact that people thought he was scummy yesterday and you have yourself an easy mislynch. And even if that weren't the case, you might not target info roles for fear of doc protection etc. (Admittedly, the doc was dead at this point, but this is a hypothetical to demonstrate why your point is flawed.)

You're simply overlooking context. In a vacuum, your arguments would hold more weight. Look at them in context and it's different. If Jdodge is scum, he had been setting Nocmen up for a mislynch for a day and a half, and almost certainly would have had it yesterday if it hadn't suddenly become kingmaker. He then turns around and nightkills him? Such a move doesn't make any sense, and claims that Nocmen was likely an info role don't make it any more compelling to the scum when they're about to get a mislync on him anyway.

Alternatively, consider he's telling the truth. He's tunneled on Nocmen for what he believes are inconsistencies in his pr and then eventually when it looks like he's not going to get the lynch, he vigs him. This makes perfect sense as vig play.

I don't know what happened to the mafia kill last night, but there are many possibilities: mafia doing other things, mafia being blocked, mafia targetting an unkillable, hell, even mafia crosskilling. (actually, wait a sec.
CKD, Oman puportedly gets +.25 of a vote for each QFT, maxing out at +2 votes. He got QFT-spammed today (by Belgarion, mostly), so he presumably gets 3 votes tomorrow. I'll note that Oman's role is more or less broken as mafia (it lets the mafia win from 5/2 town/mafia if QFT-spamming works and the town doesn't have double voters or night kills!). so I'd count him as near confirmed if he can prove his claim. (that said, could be a kill-optional SK, or maybe mafia can't QFT, only town). Plus, of course, more multi-votes than we've seen claimed would balance this out to a degree.[/quote]
I agree with you on this point, however, I want confirmation of his role as soon as possible, as people qfted him yesterday and he suddenly came up with an explanation today of why it didn't give him any votes.

[mneme]

Which means at a minimum, we have 18 votes (possibly 19)

Again, the players I "killed" (myself and tss) do not appear on the still living list, but we are, in fact, still alive - those are the votes you're missing.

There are only 15 players on the living list. I was assuming you were the remaining player, and forgot about TSS. But that only gets us to 17; which still leaves us one vote short.

Well for one thing, I think it's pretty clear I

do

suspect him: I am, you know, voting him.

Noticed. Find some buddies and you can argue your force with more, well force. Me, I'd rather leave the single player mason alone for the moment and give our (probably doomed) doctor a smaller choice of targets to defend. In general, masons shouldn't come out without a good argument; one player ain't it. Anyway, I suspect one can easily figure out who Belgarion is the alter of by looking at who started posting again near when he did.

For another, it was not fishing: I was pretty explicit that I wanted him to reveal his role.

You started with fishing. You then got more explicit.

The arguments against him are fundamentally flawed, and I hate craplogic. If I disagree with something, I will say it. (As a sidenote, I tihnk the way you get me to repeat my defence of Jdodge and the accuse me of defending him too hard is disingenuous at best.)

Repeating a bad defense just looks more scummy, not more genuine.

Ok, well there are two points here. First, you claim that scum would kill Nocmen because he had a pr, second, you state that because there was only one kill and that kill was town, it was a mafia kill.

That last bit is the usual case, yes. I don't have any info that makes me think it's untrue, do you?

Moreover, your argument relies on the assumption that the arguments of a very small number of very loud people against Nocmen were likely to be effective. Since it -was- a very small number of people, that seems disingenous.

be anything from double voter to unkillable, and it certainly doesn't mean anything where the setup was not designed by a single mod with full power over balance/role design.

Actually, looking at the roles chosen compared to submision claims, I'll challenge that last bit. There was a single mod who had full power over balance/role design. The fact that MoS farmed out a lot of the brainstorming to us doesn't change the fact that he clearly spent a lot of time and attention making sure the roles were reasonably balanced and playable once assigned.

Your conclusion doesn't even follow from this assumption, though. Say player x claims cop. However, he has been acting scummy all game

Please leave your straw man in Oz -- Nocmen wasn't even a little scummy; instead, there were a few specific scummy people who wanted to lynch him because he had a post restriction. They might have assumed they'd have better success on later days...but they might as easily have assumed that their ploy had failed and would fail.

I don't really understand JDodge's claimed day/night reversal. Does anyone? Does JDodge? Without knowing how it works, it's impossible to know how useful it is and whether it in itself is worthwhile beyond proving his role. Assuming everything is secret that usually is, it does what? Turn night-cops into day-cops, mafia into day-discussing scum with a daykill, etc; just reversing night and day timing? Beyond making it slightly more likely that cops will be able to talk even if kill-targetted (ie, they may be able to race with day-killing scum and win), I fail to see how this benefits the town significantly.

If the scum missed their kill, I'd have expected to see a strong attack on at least one player who wasn't Jdodge. (OTOH, there's a lot of WIFOM there, so hey).

I want confirmation of his role as soon as possible, as people qfted him yesterday and he suddenly came up with an explanation today of why it didn't give him any votes.

Agreed. His role doesn't confirm alignment, but it is indicative, so it's very useful to confirm (or, you know, not).

[Shanba]

[quote="Vote count"]

Nocmen - (UltimaAvalon, KaleiÐoscøpe, Nightson, Oman, curiouskarmadog, Belgarion) [/quote]

I'll address the rest later, but srsly. That's pretty close to a majority, and there were very few people who were not

ok

with it.

[Shanba]

EBWOP - well, it's closer to a majority than any other player, by a very long way.

[Oman]

WHats my total QFT's so far? I missed yesterdays. If I have 4 I will definatly get another vote tomorrow, if I have 8 I will definatly have two more votes tomorrow. If I have 6 its a toss-up.

[Twomz]

@ Shanba: I disagree on your Nocmen point. I think that if scum have a reason to believe a player has a power role and would be an easy lynch they would go after them, and then if that didn't work knock them out at night on the off chance that it would hit a cop/vig/doc/w/e.

Yeah, even with the two "dead" players, it's majority +1. And why does it say 16 alive instead of 15 or 17? Don't tell me we have a ghost/grey man as well as a puppet. (A player that is not required to post and isn't on the player list, but may vote and post in the thread and counts towards the lynch.) Only other possibility is that MoS is a player in the game as well .

[the silent speaker]

You think he's lying about being a one-shot vig. I don't see any reason to believe this. It makes much more sense that he would kill Nocmen as a 1-shot than as a scumbag.

I disagree with this both in principle and in specific. In principle, a one-shot's reaction to the notion of using his kill on night 3, on anything less than confessed scum (and possibly not even that), should be, well, "OH, THE HORROR!" In specific, having tried and failed to get Nocmen killed for his post restriction, and with Nocmen an expected power role, I see no reason why scum should not find him an attractive target. To argue otherwise is to say that they should have tried to get him lynched again; but a vig should be no less confident in his persuasive powers than the same player as scum.

And you can't even play the WIFOM that he killed Nocmen deliberately as scum to claim 1-shot, because he couldn't have known that killing Nocmen would have outed him,

I said nothing about playing WIFOM to claim one-shot; I have no doubt that JDodge had no intention of claiming when he sent in his kill. The thing is, WIFOM is irrelevant ot an ad hoc claim (true or not). A vig would expect not to be implicated in the kill just as much as scum, and therefore they would expect not to have to claim the next morning for exactly the same reasons as he. You are assuming that the action leads willy-nilly to the revelation, and it does nothing of the sort.

a Nocmen kill is terrible from other perspectives (killing him makes me look better, deprives the scum of a possible mislynch)

Any

kill deprives the scum of a possible mislynch. By this argument the scum should never kill. Which is fine by me.

There's a great motive for jdodge town to kill nocmen,

And that would be...?

And it's not like the missing kill is impossible to explain, either.

We've had one kill per night. What missing kill?

[stark]

We've had one kill per night. What missing kill?

Well, we know that there was an SK, and that there's a mafia, which makes two right there.

[jediknight]

Still here...still processing and formulating a response. More to come in a little while. I've been busy as usual.