Mini #556 - The Most Excellent People Ever - Called.

[Urzassedatives]

VOTE: UA

Bandwagon!!!!!!!

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UNVOTE, VOTE THANATOS

OMGUS

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Unvote, Vote Korlash

Claim or die.

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Someone hammer this joker.

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Why is limiting discussion a bad thing in and of itself?

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Why is limiting discussion a bad thing in and of itself?

Because otherwise we are lynching randomly and teh whole thing comes down to luck?

That is a strawman. I never asked you

Why is no discussion bad.

I asked you why limiting discussion is inherently a bad thing. Your response assumes that there has not been adequate discussion already, and that the discussion being had is relevent, and also that we can glean information from discussion on day one.


Answer my fucking question, not the one that you wish I had asked.[/quote]

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The fact that you just quoted that from my post, and not the quote underneath it which was integral to what you just quoted shows that you did not understand my post.

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Let me make it painfully clear for you. He didn't answer the question I asked. I asked him why limiting discussion is always a bad thing. He answered a different question entirely, one that I did not ask.

Here's the construction of my post explained.

1) tell him that.

2) Quote saying the question that he answered, which was never actually asked.

3) Explaination of why that's problematic.

4) ask him to answer the actual question I asked.

I think I have contributed far more than you have.

Why the fuck are you not lynched yet?

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Pretty sure goose egg means zero. Why the fuck have we not lynched korlash yet? We were so fucking close.

Urza

there might be little peeple here

shhhhhhh

cussing bad

Fuck you.

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... hey I'll vote no lynch if someone promises me Urza will be Nked...

The sad part is... Half of me isn't kidding there...

Lynch lynch lynch

Kill Kill KIll

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UA, you're in TA, can't we just kill this clown?

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You realize if we don't lynch we wont even kill the scum, right?

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Do you have any CLUE who I am?

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You can't just make assertions like that in a game of mafia. Why are my posts unhelpful?

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Yes. Read my posts again. I am challenging the traditional meta that d1s need to go slow, and also challenging the traditional meta that discussion is always a good thing. It isn't. Discussion is often a tool used by scum to obfuscate an issue. Discussion such as we're having right now (talking about discussion.) is absolutely meaningless is terms of real game application. The best things to analyze are actions, not words. So lets get back to lynching korlash, so we can all look back on this bandwagon tomorrow and gauge others actions. We're all sitting around with our thumbs up our asses right now, and nothing is getting accomplished.

In addition, I have stopped thinking voting NL is a sign of scumminess long ago. The meta is thus that any self respecting scum who wanted to not get a lot of needless attention d1 would never do it. As such, i'm like 95% sure jester is town.

Can we get back to lynching korlash now?

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The Jester: Actually, he didn't explain his vote on you, so how can you make any extrapolations whatsoever what it does or does not mean.

His logic is that since you find people suspicious for being Quote: Stupid and senseless endquote rather than scummy, you're not actually finding scum. You're argument "BUT YOU'RE DOING THE SAME THING LOL" While correct in admitting you are stupid and senseless, does not actually have any validitity at the point where you have no clue why he's voting you.

In fact, I'd say it's even more likely that he's not voting you for the NL, since he posted directly on it without so much as even FoSing you.

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I can agree with your second point, although I think your excluding newbie scum and you think is clouded by the "too scum" fallacy. On your first point, how are we supposed to analyze actions if we arbitrarily lynch Korlash, and why exactly is korlash the one we should lynch? And arn't you the one who brought up this discussion about discussion? And why would ceaselessly ending day with out much discussion and limiting information to the town be good for the town?

No, we can not get back to lynch Korlash. What do you think about RotN's vote that put him and -1?

1) I don't think so. It's not wifom at the point where scum have a strong disincentive to do it. Seeing as I made the argument that I found him town for it, and not him, it's also not wifom in that regard. It's possible that it's excluding newbie scum, but frankly re-read his posts. They have a very genuine sound about what he's trying to accomplish, and the fact that he second guesses himself several times and eventually concludes leads me to believe that he is honestly of the opinion that he is correct. In short, it doesn;t look like any kind of scum play to me. Not even noob scum play.

2) You can analyze who was on the wagon, who was not. Who led the wagon, who jumped on it at the last second. When and where its momentum faltered, and why. When and where its momentum picked up, and why. There are almost unlimited things you can achieve from almost any bandwagon. They are much more valuable than the "OMG YOU RANDOM VOTED ME" crap that I usually see to begin d1s.

3) You asked me if I was even thinking about what I was doing. Thats what brought this up. I am of the opinion that most discussion day one is useless regardless. Think about it; when was the last time you seriously saw someone bringing up d1 discussion as a basis of a case later in the game? Never, probably. If you could find even 5 examples I would be astounded. What IS relevant is the wagon, which we should get back to post haste.

4) you see what you did there? It was clever of you. You implied in your question that limiting discussion was a bad thing, and then somehow magically implied that by decreasing discussion we give ourselves "limited information d2" Thats poppy cock. What I am arguing is that the only relevant information (with few exceptions) that comes out of d1 is the bandwagon. Discussion when there is nothing to discuss gets us nowhere.

5) What I think of it cannot be determined till I know (at least) korlashes, and probably some other people's alignment.

[Urzassedatives]

Lets just lynch Korlash then.

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So lets lynch korlash, then.

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I don't think he's so much attacking you because of what you're advocating, but rather how you're advocating it. So it's still relevant.

Here's a better question:

Why arent you voting korlash?

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That post actually makes zero sense. I am unpredictable? How? Second of all, how does voting me logically follow from me "being unpredictable." Lastly, Why are you voting me after I point out that you're reading UAs arguments wrong? That seems like biting the hand that feeds.

While you are right that lynching me would be fine and dandy for the town in terms of information, thats not the only thing that has to be taken into account. Korlash is expendable because he is terrible at mafia, so I don;t have a problem lynching him. However, if you lynch me you lynch a very good logical scum hunter. These are the kind of things you will learn with time, young jester.

[Urzassedatives]

Also, prods on:

Lloyd
tyhess
WhoMe?
Thanatos
RangeroftheNorth

plz.

Replace early and often. We can't lynch Korlash if everyone isn't here. Try to get some good platers this time, rosso. You've given me very little to work with.

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DOH! It appears you are not the only one who should not post early mornings.

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So it's unhelpful. That's fine, you disagree with him. More important is what you think his motivations were. Do you think he honestly believed no lynch was the best possible option? If so, then voting him is silly.

Do you think, instead, that he was trying to maliciously mislead the town by voting no lynch? Personally, I have a hard time seeing that. But if you DO, then it is the only situation where a vote is appropriate.

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Unfortunately, that's not what I asked you.

I too think that no lynch is a bad thing. If that is the case, then why am I not voting the jester? The reason is because what I or what you think of it doesn;t matter in terms of determining his alignment. Read his posts, and then ask yourself if HE genuinely thought it was a good thing for the town.

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Korlash, I want to say this as nice as possible...

Do you know how to read?

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Urzaaedatives.....couple of things:
1) I posted thursday. Today is Saturday. Sorry if I'm not a god and post whenever I feel like it.
2) Are you always this full of yourself?
3) I don't care how expendable Korlash is, a page 5 lynch with so little info and people who haven't posted yet is NOT good. I don't want like 100 page days, but give it a break. Do you happen to be an alt of sarcastro?

1) generally most mods prod after 48 hours of inactivity and replace after 72. I think thats pretty much how most do it. If you're trying to imply that one post every three days is "good enough" then get the fuck out of this game.

2) Care to address my points, rather than attacking me personally? You'll notice that I have no problem with attacking personally (I did it in my last point) so long as you address the points. You did not, so you have not earned the right to insult.

3) Refer to my post where I tell you the only relevant info we get out of d1 IS the lynch. Please tell me if you disagree with the stone cold LOGIC I lay out. If you do, please tell me why. If you do not, please shut the fuck up.

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Whart of Korlashes play makes you think him town?

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I agree almost 100%.

When I play in a game of mafia, every move I make is calculated to have some sort of effect on the game, right down to being abusive and abrasive... I swear I'm a nice guy IRL. I tend to use a lot of traps and the like to generate my reads. Does that make me scum, mr. Panzer?

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Well, to be honest I picked korlash because he's annoying and stupid, and seeing as there are only like 4 players in this game whose play I respect and whome is not one of them, no I do not mind. I still prefer korlash though,

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Jester, What information do you get about how people reacted from an arbitrary random wagon? How do you cipher peoples intention when all they are doing is saying "Vote __" in bold?

Well, to be honest I picked korlash because he's annoying and stupid, and seeing as there are only like 4 players in this game whose play I respect and whome is not one of them, no I do not mind. I still prefer korlash though,

First of all, I don't appreciate you answering a question directed to RotN. Second(more serious), Am I one of those 4 players?

Yes.

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Well, I'm not really advocating that we direct all subsequent lynches by that principal. However, I am saying that day one, you're essentially going to get no information except from the lynch, the actions, etc. The quicker we get to that and to day 2, the better.

I picked Korlash because he accumulated a lot of votes quickly, and he's also a bad player. It could have been anyone, really, even me, although I would disagree with that from my own perspective.

After we get some information out of todays lynch and possibly tonights night actions, we can have a non random d2.

[Urzassedatives]

Well, I'm not really advocating that we direct all subsequent lynches by that principal. However, I am saying that day one, you're essentially going to get no information except from the lynch, the actions, etc. The quicker we get to that and to day 2, the better.

I picked Korlash because he accumulated a lot of votes quickly, and he's also a bad player. It could have been anyone, really, even me, although I would disagree with that from my own perspective.

After we get some information out of todays lynch and possibly tonights night actions, we can have a non random d2.

The reason you get things from actions is from the words that are spoken. If we all just voted and went to Day 2, all we would have would be like 10 votes, none of which would be telling us anything except for that they voted for him. You wouldn't know who pushed hard for the lynch, who snuck on, etc. It'd be another day one but with a wasted day.

An excellent point! If this meta were the most common meta on day one, and were extended to it's logical conclusion, day ones would become completely meaningless. Lucky for us, it isn't the dominant meta. The only reason I can propose this strategy is because it isn;t commonly accepted. If it were, then it would not be viable.

However, it is viable because we've already gotten plenty of actions to analyze with regard to korlashes alignment, because people were not doing what you said.

Also, the first part is almost completely false. Words give us some context for actions, yes, but they are also seperate from those actions. For instance, words are lies in mafia a large minority of the time. Actions are never lies. Analyzing words can thus lead you astray, whereas actions never will if you know what you're looking for.

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I really have no clue what you mean by "Who urza is."

Are you accusing me of being an alt?

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You misunderstand me. I do not actually dislike you, at all. I just view you as expendable because I do not think you're a particularly strong player. In addition you were getting up there in votes so it was a win win.

[Urzassedatives]

I had 2 random votes... you can want me lynched all you want but at least be honest about stuff.

And why do you not think Im a strong player? because I have only won half of the games Ive played? becuase you played with me before where i messed up? Did I do something in this thread that screamed idiot? ok i know I did that at least 8 times...

<.<

>.>

Still i wouldnt call me a weak player...

scot? JD? i think those two wold think Im a weak player...

Exactly. If Who me? had gotten to two votes first, I would have poured the third on him.

[Urzassedatives]

Urza, based on what has happened in this game so far, who do you believe to be scum?

Answering that question is 100% incoherent with my advocacy. I am telling you that day 1 discussion is mostly useless for determining alignment, the only thing that helps from d1 is analyzing the d1 bandwagon. I did get one gem this d1 in that I think the jester is town, but those are rare.

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Thats actually not a bad question. If this bandwagon or lynch actually outed scum in some way I guess it would be worth the insults. But I mean you gotta admit, senslessly trying to lynch someone with sudden unprovoked personal attacks doesn't scream "I do not actually dislike you, at all."

The sad thing is I'm actually enjoying this game so far. ><

Actually, the attacks and the trying to lynch you are not related. The attacks are just my in game persona, and the trying to lynch you is based on my not thinking you're that strong coupled with the fact that the BW was already created and easily analyzable.

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please explain the jester comment.