Mafia 73: NEGWLTWWWTKY - Abandoned!


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Post Post #1600 (ISO) » Fri Feb 01, 2008 5:47 pm

Post by vollkan »

Not one of those posts is saying that Quagmire
is
town. They are rejecting the idea of attacking him - by defending his conduct as not being disastrous for the town.

I personally think Quag's play is indefensible. I do not believe that it actually disadvantages town (if he is scum, he is pro-town and if he is town, then he's playing as town anyway) but I consider it against the spirit of the game. It's just a quirk of the fact that we are playing online that a person can get away with not knowing their role.

I don't like the way hasd seems to assume that Quag should be given a free pass. I mean, on one hand it should seem most likely to him that Quag didn't read the PM, he still ought to have help enough skepticism that Quag would be treated as anyone else wrt anti-town play.
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Post Post #1601 (ISO) » Fri Feb 01, 2008 6:03 pm

Post by Bookitty »

My point is that Quagmire likely did not know his role, but the scum would have known it. The defense Hasdgfas is making there seems to indicate that he was more than a little certain Quagmire was town. I didn't see anything in Quagmire's behaviour that seemed pro-town, so the premise that Quagmire was behaving as town was not supported. I argued, and I still believe, that if you have not read your role PM, you are NOT acting as town. You are acting neutrally, on behalf of yourself alone. Why would you scumhunt if you thought there was a chance you would catch someone who would turn out to be your buddy? And in fact, I didn't see any evidence that Quagmire was actually scumhunting before he decided to announce he hadn't read his role PM. (I didn't regard his joining MoS in a policy lynch as scumhunting.)

So from my perspective there's no evidence supporting the claim that, in THIS case, Quagmire was acting on behalf of the town. Yet Hasdgfas made these arguments, which in my view ran counter to the evidence, and which to me seem to indicate that Hasd knew Quagmire was town, something Quagmire claimed he himself did not know.
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Post Post #1602 (ISO) » Fri Feb 01, 2008 6:22 pm

Post by vollkan »

Bookitty wrote: My point is that Quagmire likely did not know his role, but the scum would have known it. The defense Hasdgfas is making there seems to indicate that he was more than a little certain Quagmire was town. I didn't see anything in Quagmire's behaviour that seemed pro-town, so the premise that Quagmire was behaving as town was not supported.
Hmm. Hasd seems absolutely certain that Quag is truthful about not having read his PM. Sure, if it was me in hasd's situation, I would think that it typical of Quagmare to do so, but hasd seems to lack any skepticism - he's assuming that Quag hasn't read his PM and that Quag is playing in the town's best interest. I don't think he is actually assuming Quag is town, but his level of trust is peculiarly strong.
Bookitty wrote: I argued, and I still believe, that if you have not read your role PM, you are NOT acting as town. You are acting neutrally, on behalf of yourself alone. Why would you scumhunt if you thought there was a chance you would catch someone who would turn out to be your buddy? And in fact, I didn't see any evidence that Quagmire was actually scumhunting before he decided to announce he hadn't read his role PM. (I didn't regard his joining MoS in a policy lynch as scumhunting.)
This is actually a really excellent point.

Psychologically, I imagine that knowing you are town will be a much greater incentive to scum-hunt than not knowing your role at all.

I mean, the Quag line of thinking is that since he doesn't know he is scum, he is therefore town. But, of course, the whole thing just depends on whether or not he wants to the help the town - in other words, playing for yourself only.
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Post Post #1603 (ISO) » Sat Feb 02, 2008 7:29 am

Post by zu_Faul »

vollkan wrote:
Bookitty wrote: I argued, and I still believe, that if you have not read your role PM, you are NOT acting as town. You are acting neutrally, on behalf of yourself alone. Why would you scumhunt if you thought there was a chance you would catch someone who would turn out to be your buddy? And in fact, I didn't see any evidence that Quagmire was actually scumhunting before he decided to announce he hadn't read his role PM. (I didn't regard his joining MoS in a policy lynch as scumhunting.)
This is actually a really excellent point.
It's not if you know how to motivate yourself.
vollkan wrote: Psychologically, I imagine that knowing you are town will be a much greater incentive to scum-hunt than not knowing your role at all.
If you are a main actor in getting a certain player lynched and that player turns up scum people's initial reaction would be to assume you're not mafia as well. I don't think you'd hold back.
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Post Post #1604 (ISO) » Sat Feb 02, 2008 7:40 am

Post by Xylthixlm »

I wasn't here for the Quagmire drama, but my feeling is that you should totally ignore the not-having-read-role-PM claim and just react to his actual play.
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Post Post #1605 (ISO) » Sun Feb 03, 2008 10:16 am

Post by Bookitty »

The problem is that you can't separate Quagmire's not-reading-his-role-claim from his other play, because he first made it an issue, and then behaved really erratically because of the drama llama that developed after.

That said, I think my vote was best placed where it was in the first place, after a partial reread, so I'm going to:

unvote; vote: hasdgfas
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Post Post #1606 (ISO) » Sun Feb 03, 2008 10:46 am

Post by hasdgfas »

my problem is that if it wasn't made dramatic at the time, I wonder how much of a problem people would have had with my thoughts that his action of not reading his PM wasn't inherently anti-town.
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Post Post #1607 (ISO) » Sun Feb 03, 2008 10:59 am

Post by Xylthixlm »

I don't see any particular reason to trust a claim of not having read his role PM. If he was acting scummy, you shouldn't let him off the hook, regardless of his claim. If he wasn't acting scummy then it shouldn't be an issue.
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Post Post #1608 (ISO) » Sun Feb 03, 2008 11:01 am

Post by hasdgfas »

agreed, but until the drama of that issue, nobody said anything about him.
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Post Post #1609 (ISO) » Sun Feb 03, 2008 11:16 am

Post by Xylthixlm »

Ok, so I read Quagmire's early posts. They're definitely not what I would call protown behavior. Seriously, if you're going to not read your role PM, you should at least try to play as if you read it and it said townie. Actually
claiming
that you didn't read your role PM is a horrible idea no matter what side you're on.

In other words, I have no idea if Quagmire is scum, but I'm quite sure he's a bad player.
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Post Post #1610 (ISO) » Sun Feb 03, 2008 11:17 am

Post by Toaster Strudel »

Quite a bit was said about Quagmire regarding the policy vote issue, that
preceded
the reading the role PM drama.

Your statement that "nobody said anything about him" is therefore misleading.
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Post Post #1611 (ISO) » Sun Feb 03, 2008 11:22 am

Post by Erg0 »

I would be really happy if we never mentioned Quagmire in this game again. This discussion is making my brain scream.
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Post Post #1612 (ISO) » Sun Feb 03, 2008 11:39 am

Post by Xylthixlm »

Erg0 wrote:I would be really happy if we never mentioned Quagmire in this game again. This discussion is making my brain scream.
Roger.
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Post Post #1613 (ISO) » Sun Feb 03, 2008 11:47 am

Post by Erg0 »

Toaster Strudel wrote:Quite a bit was said about Quagmire regarding the policy vote issue, that
preceded
the reading the role PM drama.

Your statement that "nobody said anything about him" is therefore misleading.
Actually, I 'll amend that statement slightly, as this is a somewhat valid point. I just find that debate over his role PM shenanigans is not particularly productive.
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Post Post #1614 (ISO) » Sun Feb 03, 2008 1:50 pm

Post by vollkan »

Zu wrote: If you are a main actor in getting a certain player lynched and that player turns up scum people's initial reaction would be to assume you're not mafia as well. I don't think you'd hold back.
Yeah, sure. But conversely, there is always the "What if I am scum and this guy is my partner?" fear. Actually,
knowing
your alignment is the most sure-fire incentive. Unless, as you said, you motivate yourself - but Quag pretty clearly wasn't doing that.
Erg0 wrote: I would be really happy if we never mentioned Quagmire in this game again. This discussion is making my brain scream.
I'm happy to keep answering questions about him, but I would be glad for us to move on.
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Post Post #1615 (ISO) » Sun Feb 03, 2008 4:21 pm

Post by Setael »

unvote


The way I see it, if erg0 was scum, he'd be perfectly happy with the town talking about Quag all day. I think I need to look elsewhere.
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Post Post #1616 (ISO) » Mon Feb 04, 2008 7:44 pm

Post by Xylthixlm »

Players who have posted in the last week (9): zu_Faul, Xylthixlm, Bookitty, Setael, hasdgfas, vollkan, Battle Mage, Erg0, Toaster Strudel
Players who haven't posted in the last week (6): Sir Tornado, JordanA24, IH, YagamiLight, Panzerjager, schizmatized

I don't really see anything we can do other than start lynching lurkers. Any suggestions on who should go first?
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Post Post #1617 (ISO) » Mon Feb 04, 2008 8:00 pm

Post by vollkan »

I don't believe a pure lurker lynch will be helpful. As you point out, we have 6 lurkers. Lynching 1 is pretty much just a drop in the ocean. A review of the lurkers and a lynch on suspicion grounds is acceptable (as is a suspicion lynch of an active player), but I don't believe that a lynch just for the purposes of getting rid of a lurker will be helpful.

I'll do a PBPA of one of the lurkers soon, as a starting point. Jordan seems like a good starting point, since I found him scummy at several points - a reread should cement or refute this view.
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Post Post #1618 (ISO) » Mon Feb 04, 2008 8:22 pm

Post by Xylthixlm »

With 9 active players and 8 to lynch, we have basically no chance of lynching anyone
but
a lurker. Hopefully, a lurker wagon will at least get the game moving again, and we won't have to go through this again tomorrow...
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Post Post #1619 (ISO) » Tue Feb 05, 2008 4:47 am

Post by Toaster Strudel »

My personal favorite lurker is Sir Tornado.
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Post Post #1620 (ISO) » Tue Feb 05, 2008 4:52 am

Post by Setael »

Xylthixlm wrote:I don't really see anything we can do other than start lynching lurkers. Any suggestions on who should go first?
vote: JordanA24


This one's not a purely lurker lynch. He's scum. I would also vote Panzer, but I prefer Jordan..

mod: Can we get prods on Sir Tornado, JordanA24, IH, YagamiLight, Panzerjager, and schizmatized?
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Post Post #1621 (ISO) » Tue Feb 05, 2008 8:34 am

Post by Shanba »

Already done
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Post Post #1622 (ISO) » Tue Feb 05, 2008 8:38 am

Post by Toaster Strudel »

Not feeling a Jordan lynch.
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Post Post #1623 (ISO) » Tue Feb 05, 2008 11:42 am

Post by Erg0 »

If we're going down this track, Panzer is my preference. The main reason I wasn't already voting him was that it looked like he was being replaced, but if that's not happening then I have no problem lynching him.
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Post Post #1624 (ISO) » Tue Feb 05, 2008 11:51 am

Post by Shanba »

I'm still searching for a Panzer replacement
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