An Alternative to Cults

[mikeburnfire]

Okay, I had this idea on making the cult a playable mechanic again. I discussed my idea with PJ last night. It combines the idea of "cults" with the idea of "lovers", in the sense that a culted player has two win conditions and can satisfy either one to win. This is the conversation we had, with minor editing by me:

[00:25] MikeBurnFire: tell me what you think: Cults that don't change one's win condition, but give them an optional, alternative win conditon
[00:25] petroleumjelly42: you mean they get 2 win conditions in a sense?
[00:25] MikeBurnFire: A townie who is culted is given the choice to win with the town OR win with the cult
[00:25] MikeBurnFire: They can win either way
[00:26] petroleumjelly42: and they choose the same night or what?
[00:26] MikeBurnFire: No, it's permanent. They win either way
[00:27] MikeBurnFire: Both scum and town can be recruited
[00:27] MikeBurnFire: And if they are recruited, they can continue to help their original faction
[00:27] MikeBurnFire: BUT if their faction is about to die, they can start playing for the cult
[00:29] petroleumjelly42: I'm not big on the mechanic in general
[00:29] petroleumjelly42: picking and choosing who gets to be 'blessed' with another way to win
[00:30] MikeBurnFire: Right, but I'm thinking I may have found a way to make a cult usable without making somebody's win condition suddenly change, which is my biggest concern.
[00:29] petroleumjelly42: sucks to be the guy who doesn't happen to be culted
[00:30] MikeBurnFire: I was thinking that too
[00:30] petroleumjelly42: additionally
[00:30] petroleumjelly42: with that condition you've mentioned: i.e. faction > Scum
[00:30] petroleumjelly42: it gives a lot of room for manipulation inside the cult
[00:31] petroleumjelly42: so if Cult recruits 1 Town + 1 Scum, say
[00:31] petroleumjelly42: the Scum could keep that 1 Town alive, knowing that Town won't vote him
[00:31] petroleumjelly42: until it comes time to knock cult leader off, or w/e
[00:31] MikeBurnFire: He would have to convince his unculted scumbuddies to keep him alive.
[00:32] petroleumjelly42: well, is the whole cult told of each others' true alignment?
[00:32] MikeBurnFire: No, that would really screw things up
[00:32] petroleumjelly42: if not, I can't imagine it would take much convincing
[00:33] MikeBurnFire: It would be optimal play for a culted scum to tell the culted town that he was town.
[00:33] petroleumjelly42: right
[00:34] MikeBurnFire: I really want to try this out.
[00:34] petroleumjelly42: *shakes fist*

Any thoughts on such a cult? Approve/Disapprove? Obvious gaping flaws that I missed?

[petroleumjelly]

My vote did not 'agree with PJ', ironically.

*bites*

[Nemesis]

LOL...


I like your cults slightly better than regular cults but I'm still not crazy about cults.


Your idea takes out the alignment change factor, but it still leaves the actual problems with cults and creates a couple of new ones. Scum getting recruited too means the cult will grow even faster than usual.

[mikeburnfire]

Yes, but if the town makes good plays against the mafia and get them lynched early, the few culted townies could just out the cult leader and end the game.

Likewise, the scum could play great for awhile and any once they reach the majority, they still win. And if the mafia wins, then the cult leader loses.

[Nemesis]

Yes, but if the town makes good plays against the mafia and get them lynched early, the few culted townies could just out the cult leader and end the game.

But if they lynched townies and look like they are in a bad situation, the culted people can just jump ship.

The worst case scenario for the town is made a lot worse by the cult being super strong.

[oEJo]

I don't really like the idea of people in the same faction being not on the same team.

[Mr Stoofer]

[00:29] petroleumjelly42: I'm not big on the mechanic in general
[00:29] petroleumjelly42: picking and choosing who gets to be 'blessed' with another way to win
...
[00:29] petroleumjelly42: sucks to be the guy who doesn't happen to be culted
...
[00:30] petroleumjelly42: it gives a lot of room for manipulation inside the cult
[00:31] petroleumjelly42: so if Cult recruits 1 Town + 1 Scum, say
[00:31] petroleumjelly42: the Scum could keep that 1 Town alive, knowing that Town won't vote him
[00:31] petroleumjelly42: until it comes time to knock cult leader off, or w/e

I agree with PJ's comments above.

[Grek]

What if the cult members only know the number of other culted people and the name of the recruiter, not other people's names or alignments? Favorwise, they could meet with evil cultist robes and hoods that cover their faces.

This might result in the cult lynching other cult members, but I doubt they would hammer vote for someone if the cult leader wasn't in on it.

Still not very fair for the person that isn't culted. Perhaps some sort of disadvantage for cult members as well?

[Tamuz]

Wow... That sucks to be the cult leader then. Worse chance of winning than a NKable SK.

I'd have huge problems with that role if I got it, in fact I would immediately ask for a replacement if I got this role. And I think I'm the only player on this site who

likes

playing as the cult leader and with cults.

I have no problem with old cults, I have big problems with your cult. Easy to see where my answer stands.

[Yosarian2]

Yeah...I think this is probably worse then traditional cults for game balance. The big problem is that once you've joined the cult, I can't see how you could really lose. Also, it seems like the scum are pretty much screwed no matter what; scum that are in the cult might decide to sell them out in order to win with the cult, or town that are in the cult might decide to win with the town in which case town has a huge edge.

[Haschel Cedricson]

EDIT: Nothing to see here.

[Seol]

There's a different fundamental problem with this version of cult from the regular version of cult, and that's the principle of ethical behaviour within a game being defined as playing with the intent of achieving your win condition. What happens when you have two win conditions and they are in diametric opposition? Is it acceptable to deliberately sell out the town (which you are still a member of) to win as cult?

The problem with cults is basically what appeals to some people is exactly the same as what some other people object to. If mutability of win conditions is "bad" (not saying it is, just that I personally have issues with it for a number of reasons), then there's no such thing as a "fixed cult" as any option is either a) not fixed, as it still suffers from mutability of win condition issues or b) not a cult, as it doesn't feature mutability of win conditions.

[Thestatusquo]

I disagree with the assertion that cults are not a playable mechanic.

[Seol]

I disagree with the assertion that cults are not a playable mechanic.

I am not asserting that. I am asserting that there is a subset of the mafia-playing population who have an inherent dislike of cults, and that dislike is associated with what makes a cult a cult. For those people, there is nothing you can do to feature an implementation of cult which they are OK with. For the record, I am one of those people.

For those people who do

not

have a fundamental dislike of mutable alignment roles, there's no reason why cults can't be made playable. They can be balanced, and they can be interesting. Nor is there something fundamentally wrong with mutable alignments - it's just a mechanic some people dislike, and others like. Just that when people do care one way or the other, they can care a

great deal

.

[Thestatusquo]

Its a good thing I wasn't responding to you, then.

Okay, I had this idea on making the cult a playable mechanic again.

[Seol]

Its a good thing I wasn't responding to you, then.

Okay, I had this idea on making the cult a playable mechanic again.

If general perception is that the cult is not a playable mechanic, then chances are it's due in at least a fairly hefty part to a prevailing attitude that role mutability is an undesirable mechanic.

[Glork]

...somebody ran a really aweome role in scumchat a while back, in which Player X could attempt to Masonize somebody each night. If at any point he was alive and masons with at least half of the living players, he would win the game. I think that might be a more appropriate way to deal with it, because like PJ, I agree that arbitrarily altering others' win conditions (even if it's just adding one) adds an element that is very unpredictable and rarely "fair" to all involved.

[PokerFace]

You are

Petroleumjelly

and you detest cults. You have a double vote and the power to make kills at night to help get rid of them. You win when cults are no longer considered an acceptable Mafia Role.

You are

MikeBurnFire

. You are flashy and get to write gruesomely violent death scenes as well as contribute to discussions on Video Games, Anime, and Mafia. You can not be lynched on any day that you are called a jerk. You win with Waterboy Waldo.

[mikeburnfire]

You are

Petroleumjelly

and you detest cults. You have a double vote and the power to make kills at night to help get rid of them. You win when cults are no longer considered an acceptable Mafia Role.

You are

MikeBurnFire

. You are flashy and get to write gruesomely violent death scenes as well as contribute to discussions on Video Games, Anime, and Mafia. You can not be lynched on any day that you are called a jerk. You win with Waterboy Waldo.

I APPROVE!

[PokerFace]

...somebody ran a really aweome role in scumchat a while back, in which Player X could attempt to Masonize somebody each night. If at any point he was alive and masons with at least half of the living players, he would win the game. I think that might be a more appropriate way to deal with it, because like PJ, I agree that arbitrarily altering others' win conditions (even if it's just adding one) adds an element that is very unpredictable and rarely "fair" to all involved.

I think I'd like to play with a role like this. It is a good sustitute for cults. Mike's idea is also cool. I'd like playing with either of them.

Hmm...
what kind of choas would evolve if the "mason recruiter" died and a mafioso later fake claimed being a mason?

[NabakovNabakov]

Wow... That sucks to be the cult leader then. Worse chance of winning than a NKable SK.

I'd have huge problems with that role if I got it, in fact I would immediately ask for a replacement if I got this role. And I think I'm the only player on this site who

likes

playing as the cult leader and with cults.

I have no problem with old cults, I have big problems with your cult. Easy to see where my answer stands.

Not true, this role could actually be gamebreaking. If the cult leader can get the town to trust him from the very start, everybody could just no-lynch/no-kill while the leader recruits until you have the first game of mafia where absolutely everybody wins.

[Nemesis]

Wouldn't it be 50% of people win, the other 50% are endgamed? (This isn't counting night kills (from n0 onwards) and other random stuff.)