Open 57 - Quack Mafia (Game Over) before 545

[TylerJ]

OK so what troubles me about this game is we basically have three events to base everything on.

1) MoS's craptastic plans and whether or not they were intentionally bad.

2) Tarlahindur's attack on me and Phate.

3) The blow back from Tarlahindur's attack on me and Phate.

Thus far a number of people are wholely responding to #1 and apparently ignoring #2-3 which means in their world there is only one important event. I think those people include:
MoS, Oman, Kuribo and Tyler.
I would like to posit that these people may be scum trying to lurk in plane sight and do not want to comment at risk of missing a lynch opportunity. I'd further state that Oman and MoS are less likely to be scum because MoS would naturally try to push suspicion away from himself to either myself or Tar whoever he thought he could get to take the heat, and Oman is less likely as he is pushing for MoS while Tar's votecount was moving upwards. That leaves me to believe that kuribo or Tyler are possible scum candidates that have gone undetected.

And Tar I know I owe you a reply to your last post, sorry I don't think I will have time to get it up today.

And the little bit about Tarhalindurs post was a mess of confusion. What I did catch was his really weak reason for voting Shaft.ed.

Tar, that definately helps me understand where you are coming from, all I ask is for you to provide evidence of what you are saying, otherwise I will simply disregard what you said. Grab some quotes and put some analysis down.

Did you not see those. Granted they do lack in content. But in my defense, I am just getting back from a busy life. Lack of participation tends to lessen the comprehension of what the current issue is. And mind you that I have been merely been responding to questions such as "Why isn't MoS dead yet?" Answer: because I can see that he could just as well be a townie that screwed up as he could be scum planting dangerous plans.

You on the other hand seem to be trying out many different accusations in hopes that one will stick. First you go to the obvious targets, MoS and those who went with his failed plan (good idea for scum). And you react with a vote against Tarlahundur. Then you go to your recent scum nominees: Kuribo and I.

Am I the only one that sees shaft.ed jumping back and forth against different targets? I don't know about the rest of you, but it seems to me that shaft.ed is going at anyone he can just to get a lynch.

[farside22]

OK so what troubles me about this game is we basically have three events to base everything on.

1) MoS's craptastic plans and whether or not they were intentionally bad.

2) Tarlahindur's attack on me and Phate.

3) The blow back from Tarlahindur's attack on me and Phate.

Thus far a number of people are wholely responding to #1 and apparently ignoring #2-3 which means in their world there is only one important event. I think those people include:
MoS, Oman, Kuribo and Tyler.
I would like to posit that these people may be scum trying to lurk in plane sight and do not want to comment at risk of missing a lynch opportunity. I'd further state that Oman and MoS are less likely to be scum because MoS would naturally try to push suspicion away from himself to either myself or Tar whoever he thought he could get to take the heat, and Oman is less likely as he is pushing for MoS while Tar's votecount was moving upwards. That leaves me to believe that kuribo or Tyler are possible scum candidates that have gone undetected.

And Tar I know I owe you a reply to your last post, sorry I don't think I will have time to get it up today.

And the little bit about Tarhalindurs post was a mess of confusion. What I did catch was his really weak reason for voting Shaft.ed.

Tar, that definately helps me understand where you are coming from, all I ask is for you to provide evidence of what you are saying, otherwise I will simply disregard what you said. Grab some quotes and put some analysis down.

Did you not see those. Granted they do lack in content. But in my defense, I am just getting back from a busy life. Lack of participation tends to lessen the comprehension of what the current issue is. And mind you that I have been merely been responding to questions such as "Why isn't MoS dead yet?" Answer: because I can see that he could just as well be a townie that screwed up as he could be scum planting dangerous plans.

You on the other hand seem to be trying out many different accusations in hopes that one will stick. First you go to the obvious targets, MoS and those who went with his failed plan (good idea for scum). And you react with a vote against Tarlahundur. Then you go to your recent scum nominees: Kuribo and I.

Am I the only one that sees shaft.ed jumping back and forth against different targets? I don't know about the rest of you, but it seems to me that shaft.ed is going at anyone he can just to get a lynch.

I'm not sure what shaft.ed found in Tar comment that he felt good about, however he is going through everything in a step by step manner and pointing to people and reason's why they are scum which seem perfectly rationale.
Honestly Tyler I think this is the longest statement you have made and I wondered about your own lack of substance. Only now that shaft.ed has pointed to you as scum do you really say anything. You have moved up on my list of suspects.

FOS: Tyler

[TylerJ]

call it coincidence...

[TylerJ]

I'm not sure what shaft.ed found in Tar comment that he felt good about, however he is going through everything in a step by step manner and pointing to people and reason's why they are scum which seem perfectly rationale.

the problem is he seems to think everyone is scum. While I admit that you shouldn't write anyone off as town, you shouldn't call everyone scum either.

If you think that the reason I started to type a lot of content was because shaft.ed thinks I am suspicious, then why does it so happen to be that the other game I am playing with you has an extra long post as well. Your argument is not valid and is merely speculation. Speculation I might add that is incorrect.

[shaft.ed]

Tyler, I'm not trying to paint everyone as scum, I'm trying to move discussion. I prefaced my post stating that I really dislike making lynch decisions based on such a small number of incidences and put forth an alternative way to look at players in order to generate further discussion in a new vein. As farside points out it's interesting that my querry stimulated your longest post to date. I also find it interesting that I'm getting more of the same avoidance from Kuribo. And am a little annoyed that noone wants to post in this game ('cept maybe the Aussies haven't had time yet).

[shaft.ed]

I was looking for either of two possible tells: scum stepping up to defend their scumbuddy or a weak townie (in the latter case, it's often done to get a pet townie), and scum trying to push a quickwagon (both well-known tells). On the whole, I consider the aggressive defense to be the more significant of the two.

I still don't agree with this idea. It's very convenient that either way someone responds to this you get a scum-tell. And I would still argue the opportunistic vote is more scummy than the defense.

(barring a player with a well-known history of aggressive bussing)

I don't think you've meta'd me yet.

You are arguing scumminess when what you are actually looking at is playstyle. My knee-jerk aggression in part due to me trying to bait out scum interactions and also due to me trying to get the game hunting and, you know,

trying to get people to start hunting for scum

.

I can completely understand your annoyance with the lack of scum hunting going on. I feel that people are disenchanted following the disasterous N1.

I supported the circle protect because I was in the original Quack Mafia and saw just how damaging it was for docs to randomly protect and the possibility that the setup was breakable (hell, the only reason I joined the game was to test and see if the circle-protect strategy would work after thinking of it and, IIRC, mentioning it in the original game). In retrospect, I was wrong, but I was blind to its flaws at the time.

I can see from some of your MD postings you are interested in the mechanics of this set up. But that just makes me more surprised that you wouldn't have noticed the failings of the circle protect.

You are either misreading or misrepresenting my post. Just because Phate is the *most likely* of the claimed Quacks to be scum does not necessarily mean that he *is* scum - by itself, it is nothing more than a minor scumtell. Just because you defended Phate does not necessarily mean that you are scum - by itself, it's just another scumtell. It's the combination of lots of little tells (and one really big one) that make me think you are probably scum.

Point taken that I can be scum buddying to Phate in this scenario but you did state:

Confirm Vote: shaft.ed
HoS: Phate

Note that at this point I am willing to switch between these two (as they are my top two scum candidates), but at this point I think that we should lynch either Phate or shaft.ed today.

Clearly you must think we are partnered.

That said, there is one HUGE scumtell that I am seeing in your posts, one that I have not been emphasizing enough, and it's the argument that you are conveniently ignoring. When I voted you (a vote on slightly inflated reasons, I admit, but one that I am pleased with regardless), you immediately responded with OMGUS (understandable but still scummy)... and then Phate, who you had defended earlier,

immediately started defending you by attacking me

, and you two have been on pretty much identical wavelengths ever since. I find it difficult to believe that two players would start building on each other's arguments unless one and probably both of them are scum.

Actually this is entirely inaccurate. You voted me on Jan 13, and had to confirm vote me before I voted for you on Jan 19. My vote came after you further clarified what I find to be an opportunistic strategy and is in no way an OMGUS vote. And if you were paying any attention to the voting record, Phate is actually the last person to vote for you on Jan 27. Lulubelle voted in the post immediately following my vote. If you are accusing anyone of buddying with me it should be her.

It's not just that you have both defended each other, it's not that both of you are leading an OMGUS attack on me -

your primary scumtell in my eyes is that you seem to be on the same wavelength as Phate to the extent that you are filling in his argument for him, and vice versa.

Again multiple players have pointed out the flaws in your plan. I don't know why you are zeroing in on me and Phate when there are at least 3 other players that have issues with your "trap."

[Crub]

Vote Count:

Tarhalindur (3):

shaft.ed, farside22, Phate

Mastermind of Sin (2) :

Oman, kuribo

shaft.ed (1) :

Tarhalindur

Not Voting : Mastermind of Sin, TylerJ, Lulubelle

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch. (3 at deadline in 5 days)

[Mastermind of Sin]

I still feel that people are pushing for an opportunistic lynch on MoS.

While I agree with the above statement, I also feel that MoS's "plans" could quite well be the act of scum. Wish he had more posting to base his alignment on as the "plans" seem to be the only major tell he has given off.

QFT. It

was

scummy, but so far, that is the only tell I can derive at this moment.

Possibly costing us the game singlehandedly is an admittedly large tell, though.

It's hard for one person to cost us the game. For me to, as you said, "cost us the game singlehandedly", it would require a large number of people to support my plan and put it into action and for no one to voice any opposition to it or point out any flaws. I fail to see how the responsibility for that failure would be on my shoulders. It's a gross misrepresentation of the situation to say that I would be the only one responsible, especially when I admitted that I hadn't checked for flaws

when I posted the plan

...

[TylerJ]

I fail to see how the responsibility for that failure would be on my shoulders.

Because you came up with the idea, If you hadn't then there would be a nearly impossible chance for it to ever happen. But enough with semantics.

Tyler, I'm not trying to paint everyone as scum, I'm trying to move discussion. I prefaced my post stating that I really dislike making lynch decisions based on such a small number of incidences and put forth an alternative way to look at players in order to generate further discussion in a new vein.

Sorry for snapping then. However, your evidence used was based off a proccess of elimination, which I find to be real weak evidence in and of itself; just because this guy doesn't seem scummy, doesn't mean the other guy is.

But I wont forget that it seems you are fishing for a guy to hang. Please don't debate about it for the simple reason that it would just be a 'your word against mine' case.

Ohh, and another thing. The fact that your post generated my first long post isn't too big of a deal, look at my other games and you will see that it happened in those too. And such a post would generally have such a result regardless of alignment.

[Tarhalindur]

I'll answer shaft.ed's posts tomorrow if at all possible. I also need to take a look at MoS, who I haven't paid attention to due to tunnel vision (and who I may be able to meta, given that I'm fairly used to his play as town by now).

Unvote

for now to avoid further tunnel vision.

[kuribo]

It's a gross misrepresentation of the situation to say that I would be the only one responsible, especially when I admitted that I hadn't checked for flaws

when I posted the plan

...

The fact that you didn't check for flaws indicates to me that either A) you're not very good at figuring out a decent plan, or B) you deliberately tried to mislead the town.

[Tarhalindur]

Vote: MoS

.

More later, short on time (note that the tells I'm seeing from MoS are universal but even more noteworthy than usual coming from him).

[Tarhalindur]

EBWOP: Reminding myself that I still need to reply to shaft.ed, too.

[TylerJ]

Vote: MoS

.

More later, short on time (note that the tells I'm seeing from MoS are universal but even more noteworthy than usual coming from him).

That was wierd, still debating if it was suspicious as well.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I fail to see how the responsibility for that failure would be on my shoulders.

Because you came up with the idea, If you hadn't then there would be a nearly impossible chance for it to ever happen. But enough with semantics.

Sorry, I worded that wrong. I'm not trying to divest responsibility completely. That should have said "would be

solely

on my shoulders". Just because I suggested the idea doesn't guarantee it's going to happen, so it's not automatically all my fault just because I came up with it.

It's a gross misrepresentation of the situation to say that I would be the only one responsible, especially when I admitted that I hadn't checked for flaws

when I posted the plan

...

The fact that you didn't check for flaws indicates to me that either A) you're not very good at figuring out a decent plan, or B) you deliberately tried to mislead the town.

How could I be trying to mislead the town by informing them that I hadn't checked for flaws yet? If I wanted to mislead the town, I was act like the plan was foolproof and should be enacted immediately.

That

would be misleading the town. Proposing a possibility and asking people to check it for flaws is NOT misleading the town.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Vote: MoS

.

More later, short on time (note that the tells I'm seeing from MoS are universal but even more noteworthy than usual coming from him).

You know me better than that.

[TylerJ]

Vote: MoS

.

More later, short on time (note that the tells I'm seeing from MoS are universal but even more noteworthy than usual coming from him).

I believe, you, but do you have time now?

[Tarhalindur]

In short, the reason why I am now voting MoS is, when I looked over MoS'es posts, I couldn't find any MoS scumhunting in this game - instead, MoS is focusing primarily on game theory. This would ping my scumdar even under ordinary circumstances (it's the Information Instead of Analysis tell), but it's more damning than usual coming from MoS since I've used to MoS being an aggressive scumhunter.

The clearest example of this was hard to spot when I was just reading through the thread, but became blatantly obvious when I looked at MoS'es posts:

if you ignore MoS'es random vote on Day 1 (which he immediately unvoted in favor of No Lynch), then MoS has not voted for anyone during the course of the game

. Coming from MoS, that's very, very noteworthy - if not lynchworthy, then at least a sign that MoS is in serious need of some pressure.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Tarhalindur, there is evidence that I was going to attempt to break the game before I even knew my role, so I find it hard to believe that you think this is some sinister plan on my part. I came into the game with a mission of devising a strategy that could win the game for the town, but the eagerness of the town to follow my lead made this a little harder now. Even so, we all knew coming into the game that I'd try to come up with a winning strategy, so it's dumb to say that I'm scum for doing it.

As for my suspicions, they're developing slowly. I want to watch a few more reactions to see how things end up, because I really don't have much right now. I have been a little *too* wrapped up in theories to pay attention to lynching people so far, but I want to change that.

[kuribo]

Even so, we all knew coming into the game that I'd try to come up with a winning strategy, so it's dumb to say that I'm scum for doing it.

Yes, but we also all know that if your win condition isn't pro-town that you'll try and come up with a winning strategy and get the win.

To some of us, it seems that we think that's exactly what's gone on.

For the record, I find it hard to believe that a player with your experience and your reputation would formulate no less than two flawed plans and fail to consider the possible outcomes. It's easier to see you as scum "Masterminding" if you will, our demise, as opposed to a hapless townie who screwed up twice.

[shaft.ed]

In short, the reason why I am now voting MoS is, when I looked over MoS'es posts, I couldn't find any MoS scumhunting in this game - instead, MoS is focusing primarily on game theory. This would ping my scumdar even under ordinary circumstances (it's the Information Instead of Analysis tell), but it's more damning than usual coming from MoS since I've used to MoS being an aggressive scumhunter.

The clearest example of this was hard to spot when I was just reading through the thread, but became blatantly obvious when I looked at MoS'es posts:

if you ignore MoS'es random vote on Day 1 (which he immediately unvoted in favor of No Lynch), then MoS has not voted for anyone during the course of the game

. Coming from MoS, that's very, very noteworthy - if not lynchworthy, then at least a sign that MoS is in serious need of some pressure.

I've never played with MoS but I have heard of his scumhunting abilities. And I do agree almost every post has been in defense of his poor breaking plans.

I'm not as sure about Tar as before. He may be trying to divert his wagon over to MoS. But MoS has been at or near the top of my scum list all day. I'll leave my vote on Tar for now, but I could definitely get behind an MoS lynch.

[TylerJ]

I would vote MoS if it wasn't at -1 already. I had found his plans to just be honest mistakes, however, compiled with the lack of scumhunting he seems the best candidate. I will wait a bit before I put the hammer. I also suggest you claim. Wait, that wouldn't do any good would it? lol.

[Tarhalindur]

Tarhalindur, there is evidence that I was going to attempt to break the game before I even knew my role, so I find it hard to believe that you think this is some sinister plan on my part. I came into the game with a mission of devising a strategy that could win the game for the town, but the eagerness of the town to follow my lead made this a little harder now. Even so, we all knew coming into the game that I'd try to come up with a winning strategy, so it's dumb to say that I'm scum for doing it.

As for my suspicions, they're developing slowly. I want to watch a few more reactions to see how things end up, because I really don't have much right now. I have been a little *too* wrapped up in theories to pay attention to lynching people so far, but I want to change that.

Nice strawman. MoS, I never said that I considered your attempts to find a breaking strategy scummy in and of themselves. What I do find suspicious is that the only things you talked about prior to coming under fire were breaking strategies.

You've had enough interest to post ideas on how to break the game, but not enough interest to actually scumhunt - in fact, you don't seem to have mentioned anyone individually except in the contest of defending your actions. I'm used to you being more aggressive than this, and I'm used to you actually taking positions on players. Your failure to do so is pinging my scumdar.

[Tarhalindur]

I would vote MoS if it wasn't at -1 already. I had found his plans to just be honest mistakes, however, compiled with the lack of scumhunting he seems the best candidate. I will wait a bit before I put the hammer. I also suggest you claim. Wait, that wouldn't do any good would it? lol.

Noting this post for later (need to decide whether to interpret it as scum pushing a wagon without actually joining it or newb town supporting a wagon).

[farside22]

I would vote MoS if it wasn't at -1 already. I had found his plans to just be honest mistakes, however, compiled with the lack of scumhunting he seems the best candidate. I will wait a bit before I put the hammer. I also suggest you claim. Wait, that wouldn't do any good would it? lol.

Noting this post for later (need to decide whether to interpret it as scum pushing a wagon without actually joining it or newb town supporting a wagon).

I'm going with scum either way. MOS has 3 votes from what I'm counting not 4. Will to hammer and pushing more for MOS. I find it interesting enough to change my vote. Also I have an issue when people bring up current games to show behavior in one way or another. It's not an excuse one can argue against and is really bad play.

unvote: vote: Tyler J.