Mafia 73: NEGWLTWWWTKY - Abandoned!

[Setael]

Hey ABR, are you and MoS getting married?

[Battle Mage]

Hey ABR, are you and MoS getting married?

I believe the term you are looking for is, 'Civil Partnership'.

[Erg0]

I'm somewhat ambivalent about this TS wagon. I definitely see the problem that many people have with her, but I think it may be due to frustration as much as anything. If things don't change, I'll consider joining the wagon.

TS: What is your intended approach to vollkan now that he's taken the spot of the player you were so opposed to? Do you feel he's tainted by his predecessor's actions?

More later as I finish re-reading.

[Setael]

unvote, vote: erg0

[Erg0]

Sorry, I'll try to post less in future. At least you got my name right.

Other salient points:

Despite Albert's spotty history, I believe his mason claim. I'm actually impressed that he had the good sense to show himself as the last mason so that we won't have to deal with faked mason claims later on.

I had Panzer down as the second option for my vote, but I'll wait and see how his replacement does. Despite what TS said, from re-reading his posts I don't particularly get the impression that he was keeping up with the game all that well. I try not to meta replacement requests if possible, but his reason does appear somewhat truthful.

I still have that bad feeling about BM. He's been mega-hoppy, and has gone so far as to completely switch camps on at least two wagons so far.

Vote: Battle Mage

[Battle Mage]

erm, example please?

[Setael]

I still have that bad feeling about BM. He's been mega-hoppy, and has gone so far as to completely switch camps on at least two wagons so far.

Hmm... that applies to me in this game a lot more than BM, I think. Why didn't you accuse me of that as well, or instead even? Afraid to draw negative attention with anything that might be called OMGUS?

[Erg0]

I had BM at the back of my mind most of the way through day 1, so he was next on my list once Peers and Panzer were eliminated from consideration for the present time. I haven't really looked at you in any depth up to this point, but I'll be sure to now.

I'll give some examples for BM when I get a few minutes to write them up.

[vollkan]

Page 41

Yosarian has a null read on Quagmire. Bookitty argues Quag is scum who announced his non-reading of the PM to distract the town - this is reaching in my view. I can't judge why Quagmire did make his declaration, but he did make it in response to the vig remarks by TS, so it looks like he was just declaring from the outset that he was untouchable for D1. Discussion about Canberra. Interesting fact: Canberra was only made the capital of Australia to placate both Sydney and Melbourne who were vying for being capital. TS accuses Yos of selectively lurking and derailing wagons.

Page 42

Bookitty keeps pushing Quag as scum. Albert is right, Quag's play is anti-town but not scummy.

Page 43

Book would support a Peers or Sikario lynch given her speculation about Quagmire. Quag explains that he only declared he hadn't read since he thought it was just assumed anyway.

Page 44

Book pushes hasd for her previous case. Albert joins in. Set also agrees about hasf

Page 45

Nothing really other than about Quagmire not playing the game.

Page 46

More of the same

Page 47

Bookitty votes Peers because "He's had uneven and inconsistent responses throughout the game." This seems pretty vague.

Page 48

Panzer also slaps a vote on peers, without justification. Setael also joins. TS vote sfor Quag to pursue a claim.

Page 49

Albert also joins on peers, justified only by an attack on Book. Zu faul emerges and, again, adds nothing.

page 50

TS votes MoS on the basis that only scum knowing quag is town, or scum buddied to quag could so so. I don't agree with this dichotomy.

[Shanba]

Xyl replaces ABR

[Erg0]

Ok, BM's vote-hopping:

At the start of the game he's all over the place, though he did state up front that he would be vote-hopping on purpose to try and elicit reactions. I'm not sure that this can be expected to achieve anything if you've given a warning in advance, but at least he somewhat explained this behaviour. Ignoring his first 20-odd posts, the first reversal is here:

@BM - I admire the way you, and players like you, look at the broader spectrum, i.e., checking other games in which I've participated; however, you failed to see why I replaced out of those games (as you stated).

I replaced out of some games because I didn't like the players or I figured some of their logic to be too hard to comprehend. Some of them I replaced out of purely because I was playing another game already and the latter game consisted of too lengthy posts. The reason I'm staying in this game is because I can understand some of you, such as hasd, and I feel I can make an earnest attempt at keeping up.

I also like your "I Don't Need An Avatar To Be Famous" playing style, so, yeah, it's all about living and learning and I'm trying to do both.

I did answer your question...right...?

ok i guess. I can sort of see where you are coming from. You are obviously paying good attention to me at least - i made that avatar comment in Newbie 484.
I would still appreciate a list of all games you are playing in now, and all games you replaced out of within the last week. Just for my notes.

oh and

Unvote, Vote: ABR

Bandwagonning and setting up future-lynches?

DIE SCUM DIE.

[...]in order to protect someone you know is -100%- town?

Oh good grief. Doesn't anybody know how to play this game anymore?

unvote

Peers was referring to himself. Why did you unvote him ?

lol good spot.

FoS: TS

Why are you FoSing TS, do you think that was an excuse to take her vote off of Peers ?

She seems jumpy, and seems not to be reading the game. Very quick to hop away from the wagon when she thought that she might have outted the cop, but as soon as she is corrected, she hops back on.

In fact,

Unvote, Vote: TS

.

Albert, with me.

In the space of 20 posts, BM goes from accusing ABR of setting up chain lynches (a fairly strong scumtell in my experience) to agreeing with him about TS and even asking ABR to follow him onto the wagon. He then says in his next post that he hasn't dropped his case on ABR, despite following him like this, which sounds like bet-hedging to me.

The second example is Day 2's TS/IH argument, which resulted in BM voting IH and then switching to TS a few posts later because of "bussing". Looks like a weak reason to join a wagon with some momentum to me, I'm not really getting a bussing vibe from IH/TS at all.

Basically this adds up to a whople lot of bet-hedging to me. BM is pushing whoever looks easiest to lynch at the time and hopping between opposing cases at will.

[Xylthixlm]

Hi all. I've just finished the extremely arduous task of going through the last three pages. I'll try to get up to speed as we go along. My impressions so far...

Vollkan is a much braver man than I.
ABR had a bunch of opinions.
I really wish ABR had given some reasons for his opinions.
Toaster Strudel seems to be the bandwagon of the moment.
There are a bunch of not-really-active people.
Setael is worrying me a bit. Her apparent target, Erg0, is also worrying me a bit.


Here's a few questions to help me get a feel for this game. Please answer your question if you are town. If you aren't town, you don't have to answer.

Vollkan, what do you think about Toaster Strudel?

Toaster Strudel, what do you think about Bookitty?

Bookitty, what do you think about Setael?

Setael, what do you think about IH?

IH, what do you think about Battle Mage?

Battle Mage, what do you think about Erg0?

Erg0, what do you think about zu_Faul?

zu_Faul, what do you think about the lurkers?

[Setael]

Thanks for replacing.

I'm leaning town on IH, but it's largely based on my other suspicions. I think jordan and panzer are both scummy, and they're the 2 players IH presented good cases on when he entered the game. Didn't feel like distancing - felt legitimate. Other than that, IH's play in this game has been on par with how I've seen him play as town in other games. I have not played with him as scum though, so I hardly have a solid meta on him.

Bottom line is, I've seen no reason to think IH is scum.

[Erg0]

Xyl, any particular reasoning behind that list? I understand that it must be tough to replace into a game of this length, but that really looks like questioning for the sake of questioning to me.

Having said that, it's probably time I had a more detailed look at zu_Faul - his infrequent posting has kept him off my radar to an extent until now.

He had relatively few posts on day 1, but in re-reading what he did give us I generally agree with his points. He was pretty consistent throughout the day, and took a similar position on Quag to me. I wasn't a big fan of the Kscope wagon, but zu_Faul at least gave a decent reason for jumping on (other than lurkiness), and did so relatively early in the day before Kscope became the popular/easy lynch. The one thing that gives me pause is his dropping his early suspicion of Sikario8 (now Setael) entirely later in the day - he never really seemed to be happy with him, he just stopped talking about him at some point. There was an FoS on Setael later, I wonder if zu_Faul failed to realise she'd replaced Sikario8?

Interesting to go back to this post and see the beginning of the TS/zu_Faul thing. TS later mentions zu_Faul's "inconsistency", which I think is wholly inaccurate. There may be more background to zu_Faul's TS-vote than there initially appears.

Overall, I don't mind zu_Faul's play - what there is of it, at least. The biggest point against him is his lurkiness, but he's at least posting solid opinions and reasoning when he does post. He's nowhere near the top of my suspect list right now.

[Bookitty]

I think Setael is probably town. I think she read the situation with Quagmire and his defenders pretty much the same way I did, and I agree with her on Toaster Strudel AND IH, so I think she's showing very sound reasoning. I'd be very surprised if she were scum.

On the other hand, I'm going to do a targeted reread on Battle Mage, because I agree with most of Erg0's points, and I also need to take a close look at Jordan, given what we know about alignments from the night kills, because I think Setael may have been right about him as well.

[Xylthixlm]

Xyl, any particular reasoning behind that list? I understand that it must be tough to replace into a game of this length, but that really looks like questioning for the sake of questioning to me.

Some of the questions are ones I think will have enlightening answers. Some of them are there mostly to make sure everyone gets a question. I tried to make sure that I asked each person about someone they haven't said much about (at least not in the pages I read).

In general, I find it very useful to ask for opinions on the people who aren't being actively discussed. It helps me get a sense of who is sincerely looking for scum, and who isn't.

[Xylthixlm]

I've done a bit more reading. I'm not really sure what the Toaster Strudel wagon is about, so

unvote

if I inherited ABR's vote.

I am

so

glad I replaced ABR instead of Panzerjager.

[Battle Mage]

Ok, BM's vote-hopping:

At the start of the game he's all over the place, though he did state up front that he would be vote-hopping on purpose to try and elicit reactions. I'm not sure that this can be expected to achieve anything if you've given a warning in advance, but at least he somewhat explained this behaviour. Ignoring his first 20-odd posts, the first reversal is here:

@BM - I admire the way you, and players like you, look at the broader spectrum, i.e., checking other games in which I've participated; however, you failed to see why I replaced out of those games (as you stated).

I replaced out of some games because I didn't like the players or I figured some of their logic to be too hard to comprehend. Some of them I replaced out of purely because I was playing another game already and the latter game consisted of too lengthy posts. The reason I'm staying in this game is because I can understand some of you, such as hasd, and I feel I can make an earnest attempt at keeping up.

I also like your "I Don't Need An Avatar To Be Famous" playing style, so, yeah, it's all about living and learning and I'm trying to do both.

I did answer your question...right...?

ok i guess. I can sort of see where you are coming from. You are obviously paying good attention to me at least - i made that avatar comment in Newbie 484.
I would still appreciate a list of all games you are playing in now, and all games you replaced out of within the last week. Just for my notes.

oh and

Unvote, Vote: ABR

Bandwagonning and setting up future-lynches?

DIE SCUM DIE.

[...]in order to protect someone you know is -100%- town?

Oh good grief. Doesn't anybody know how to play this game anymore?

unvote

Peers was referring to himself. Why did you unvote him ?

lol good spot.

FoS: TS

Why are you FoSing TS, do you think that was an excuse to take her vote off of Peers ?

She seems jumpy, and seems not to be reading the game. Very quick to hop away from the wagon when she thought that she might have outted the cop, but as soon as she is corrected, she hops back on.

In fact,

Unvote, Vote: TS

.

Albert, with me.

In the space of 20 posts, BM goes from accusing ABR of setting up chain lynches (a fairly strong scumtell in my experience) to agreeing with him about TS and even asking ABR to follow him onto the wagon. He then says in his next post that he hasn't dropped his case on ABR, despite following him like this, which sounds like bet-hedging to me.

I didnt agree with him as such-i dont recall him voting for TS at the time. Anyway, changing your views on someone isn't inherently scummy. I'd rather see that than a player desperately bidding for consistency points and not staying alert.

The second example is Day 2's TS/IH argument, which resulted in BM voting IH and then switching to TS a few posts later because of "bussing". Looks like a weak reason to join a wagon with some momentum to me, I'm not really getting a bussing vibe from IH/TS at all.

I still think there is good reason to vote for both of them. I merely swapped to the TS wagon because it had more votes.

Basically this adds up to a whople lot of bet-hedging to me. BM is pushing whoever looks easiest to lynch at the time and hopping between opposing cases at will.

Opposing? Erg0, just because 2 people are voting for each other, it doesnt mean both arent scum. Its called bussing. And even if they arent 'bussing', it is quite possible to find them both suspicious. If you think an argument between 2 people is not Townie vs Townie, its worth lynching them.

BM

[Battle Mage]

On the other hand, I'm going to do a targeted reread on Battle Mage, because I agree with most of Erg0's points

You mean all

2

of them!?

[Battle Mage]

Battle Mage, what do you think about Erg0?

Well, i cant say anything bad about the guy on his birthday!
I dont think he's the play for today by a long chalk. Equally, i feel he is reaching alot with his suspicions, but that isnt necessarily scummy. Its just how Erg0 does things. :p

BM

[Shanba]

Vote Count:

4: TS

(Panzerjager, Zu_Faul, IH, BM)

1: Panzerjager

(Toaster Strudel)

1: Sir Tornado

(JordanA24)

1: Bookitty

(Quagmire)

1: Erg0

(Setael)

1: Battle Mage

(Erg0)

Not Voting:

Sir Tornado, Bookitty, hasdgfas, YagamiLight, schismatized, xylthixlm

[vollkan]

...I posted my 51-60 reread yesterday but it appears not to be in the thread.

Page 61

I enter the thread. TS says she is voting Panzer for him being "very anti-town" (How so?), slapdash (?) and an ill-timed KScope vote. BM votes IH for bad vibes. Setael suspects Jordan and Panzer for flying under the radar (This is true). Zu criticises BM for using gut (wow..I agree with zu). TS makes some arguments against IH - all lackluster. Albert calls for a vote on Set or Erg0. Banter between Set and Albert about Albert's intuition.

Page 62

Panzer seeks replacement. Zu votes TS for jumping on everyone and for apparently misusing the label "OMGUS". TS explains she didn't mean OMGUS just "Oh my god, you suck." Albert insists Erg0 is scum. Zu keeps pushing on TS (Weird that his activity has suddenly ballooned - two posts in two pages). Albert agrees with Zu. Set doesn't. IH votes TS for her continued attacks on imaginary bandwagons being shut down. Albert joins. TS says she only changed twice, that NOBODY is making cases, and then self-votes in frustration (

Finger of Rage: TS

I hate self-votes). Book asks anyone who thinks Quag is town to explain why - I find this interesting since it is akin to flipping the onus of proof. It implies that "Quag = Scum" is the null hypothesis.

Page 63

Bookitty asks me to explain my thoughts on Quag's role PM behaviour. I oblige. IH keeps pushing against TS, criticising her dismissal of that ridiculously long D1. TS responds by saying she has done more cases than anyone. BM FoSes TS for overeaction - he never accused her of BWing. Then votes TS because he sees "bussing" (?)

Page 64

Erg0 is ambivalent on TS, but he says he is willing to vote - despite having said it seems mostly due to frustration. This is rather confusing. Erg0, do you suspect TS or not? Setael votes Erg0 - no explanation. Erg0 votes BM for being "mega-hoppy" - is that scummy? Promises some content on BM. Erg0 explains that it looks like BM is pushing any easy lynch.

Vollkan, what do you think about Toaster Strudel?

The most accurate word I could use is "confusing". On one hand, she's one of the most active posters in the thread, but so much of her play is erratic and overly-reactive. I didn't like her approach to Quag or Yosarian particularly. On my % system, I'd put her about 60%.

Right now, I most dislike zu_faul. He's hiding in the shadows and has made some very dodgy posts. Jordan is also worrying me, but I'll need to review him to confirm if this concern is legitimate.

[Bookitty]

Book asks anyone who thinks Quag is town to explain why - I find this interesting since it is akin to flipping the onus of proof. It implies that "Quag = Scum" is the null hypothesis.

Hmmm, that was not my intent. I think a lot of people viewed Quagmire as an obvious lynch target, and it was my bet that some scum hoped to gain townie points by defending some pretty indefensible behaviour on Quag's part (which makes him more likely to be town, a comment I believe I made to TS at one point). Quagmire may or may not have known his role, but it's certain that the (other?) scum knew it, regardless of which way the card flipped. I thought some pretty shoddy arguments were made defending Quagmire's not reading his role PM. I pointed them out at the time.

It is more telling to examine the reasoning of those who defended him, in my view, than to question you regarding Quagmire's actions (though I did that too). You can't very well defend his actions regarding his role PM, since you state you don't agree with them. So I was looking for more information from the people who WERE defending his actions, hasdgfas especially.

And if I didn't say so before, THANK YOU, Vollkan, for replacing into this game.

[vollkan]

And if I didn't say so before, THANK YOU, Vollkan, for replacing into this game.

No problem

Book asks anyone who thinks Quag is town to explain why - I find this interesting since it is akin to flipping the onus of proof. It implies that "Quag = Scum" is the null hypothesis.

Hmmm, that was not my intent. I think a lot of people viewed Quagmire as an obvious lynch target, and it was my bet that some scum hoped to gain townie points by defending some pretty indefensible behaviour on Quag's part (which makes him more likely to be town, a comment I believe I made to TS at one point). Quagmire may or may not have known his role, but it's certain that the (other?) scum knew it, regardless of which way the card flipped. I thought some pretty shoddy arguments were made defending Quagmire's not reading his role PM. I pointed them out at the time.

It is more telling to examine the reasoning of those who defended him, in my view, than to question you regarding Quagmire's actions (though I did that too). You can't very well defend his actions regarding his role PM, since you state you don't agree with them. So I was looking for more information from the people who WERE defending his actions, hasdgfas especially.

Did anyone actually say that Quag seemed pro-town, though? I mean, if I recall correctly, those who were defending him seemed more to just be arguing along the line that "it's what he does all the time" and that it meant nothing - not that he was acutally protown.

I mean, there is a difference between someone thinking "Quagmire is town" and someone not suspecting him for his play.

[Bookitty]

The posts that I was mainly thinking of, Vollkan, are these:

If he is scum, it is more pro-town, because he'll be scum-hunting just like the rest of us, so we might have one extra townie for at least a day.

Quag, it may be helpful for you not to read your Role PM, but it seriously disadvantages the rest of us, since you don't know what your alignment is on Day 1, and, if you're scum, you don't know who your buddies are, that makes all of your posts on Day 1 completely useless for trying to find your alignment/possible scumbuddies. Even if you're town, it disadvantages the town, because now, everybody's talking about you not reading your Role PM, rather than discussing about who's scum, it just wastes time and clogs the thread, and puts unnecessary pressure on yourself.

I say we not worry about Quagmire's role PM at this point because as you say, it is what we're talking about instead of scum-hunting. We can try to find scumtells the same way as we do every game, except that one player doesn't know his role. This gives us an advantage because he's playing as a townie. If he changes his playstyle significantly tomorrow, or again says that he didn't read his role PM, we can lynch him then, but right now, he's on our side, no matter what his role PM says.

But for those who are arguing that Quagmire not reading his role PM is good, because we gained a townie for the day, I'd like them to list the pro-town, helpful things that Quagmire has done. Because I'm not seeing any, myself.

When I was defending his actions, I was stating that if we didn't jump all over him for not reading his PM or if he didn't announce it, we would, in theory, have a townie. Maybe he didn't do anything pro-town. In that case, we lynch him. However, if, say, mith were to be in a game and hadn't read his role PM during day 1, he would play day 1 as a townie. The action of not reading your role PM is not inherently anti-town, but Quagmire in this case looks more and more anti-town. Not based on that one action, but on the game as a whole.

I found these problematic. What is your view on them?