Mafia 72: Peril in Panama - Game over!

[Setael]

More food for thought. I know the scum have been erratic a lot of the game, but WHY is a claimed doctor still alive? There is no guarantee that we have a doctor in this setup, and a doc is anyway a convenient scum claim. I don't think BM is a good lynch today, but let's not forget that he is in no way a cleared pro-town role.

This is another benefit I saw to me claiming even though I haven't found scum yet. It takes WIFOM power out of the scum's hands. If BM is the doc, he will protect me so I will get at least one more investigation, but he will likely die tonight. If he is scum, I will die tonight but at least you'll know and can lynch BM tomorrow. There's a small chance the scum will leave us both alive hoping we'll mislynch one of us tomorrow but we would likely still lynch one of the 4 and it'd be nearly game over. Likely I'll find scum tonight and we'd lynch them. Scum can't risk that. The longer they leave me alive, I'll eventually find them and even be able to investigate BM if necessary.

I still think there are 2 scum left, but I concede that I could be wrong. I'm not so sure about Lowell anymore - I'd like to hear more from him, that's for sure.

By the way, streeflo bread crumbed in his 2nd post. The first letters of the first three words spell COP.

[Patrick]

Votecount

Lowell (2) -- farside22, Shanba
Porochaz (1) -- Mastermind of Sin
farside22 (1) -- Lowell

Not voting: Setael, Battle Mage, Porochaz, Dragon Phoenix, pete d
9 alive, 5 to lynch.

[Shanba]

/brainwave

MoS, what do you think of DP?

[Lowell]

post 775 makes a lot of sense.

Here's my reasoning for farside.

DP, as some pointed out, has seemed to vote "right" every time. Still, I can't fathom scum intentionally bussing their own GODFATHER, and since he led the charge against bookitty (w/ Albert) I don't see him as scum.

Pete D could be scum, but he too helped push the wagon forward. It is one thing to say "scum want to hide by being on the right wagon", but both of these two led the charge. I, and several others, probably never would have even NOTICED the bookitty argument had they not been so vocal in backing Albert up on it.

So that gives me farside by process of elimination. Pow. Scum.

[Shanba]

Could you quote the posts in which you believe DP was exceptionally vocal about the wagon?

[farside22]

I have my reason to doubt Seteal's claim. I realized however being vocal about my reason could allow the scum a chance to escape the noose for a bit. If the votes get to close to me I will lay my reason's out since I know I am not scum and explain rationale why I have problems with said claim.
With that said I do find it interesting that two of the possible scum's that Setael had down both seem to focus on me as scum. I believe I've been more vocal with my reasoning on who I voted for then either of you since I entered the game. If there is one scum left I would be more suspect of Lowell then DP who has made some good observations. I actually agreed with him about BM's claim and sudden disappeareance. Whether you agree with me about my thoughts on Seteal or not. I am not the right lynch for today.

[Setael]

I think you should lay your reasons out now for doubting my claim rather than waiting until you're close to a lynch. I know you are wrong, but the discussion will give more insight into you and that would be helpful.

[Dragon Phoenix]

I agree with Seatal - discuss now. This smacks like "I still have to make up stuff and need to buy time".

[farside22]

I think you should lay your reasons out now for doubting my claim rather than waiting until you're close to a lynch. I know you are wrong, but the discussion will give more insight into you and that would be helpful.

I disagree and I almost can see the damage that can be done by my reasoning, but if you insist I will lay out my reason's. As I stated you were very vocal in your comments against Volkan. Here is one quote as an example.

Hi Shanba. Yeah, I started one game from scratch and the first 10 pages were pretty boring. I prefer replacing in once it's exciting

Anyone else think it's odd that there's never been a NK? I think they were stopped by the doc or cop N1 but I think there was a NK last night.

I think there's a good chance that vollkan NK'd me with the intention of claiming vig. Risky, but worth a gamble since they've already lost 2 members of their team. They knew ABR would likely push my lynch today, with me targeting vollkan the whole time and then when I came up town it would look very bad on vollkan. Perfect solution = NK me and claim it as a vig kill. Might give a chance at a win to a scum team that has been dropping like flies.

I also think if he was town he'd be more likely to be a 1-shot. Oh, and if he was town I think he'd have vigged me after Bookitty came up scum. I see no reason for a town vig with a nightly kill to have left me alive after Bookitty's lynch. As scum, he'd definitely claim to be able to kill every night to keep us from lynching him. All signs point to vollkan scum.

vote: vollkan

There was a possiblity the mafia may not have done their act or the doctor protected the person they targeted. We don't know that. As a cop don't you think you should have locked up Volkan instead of disbelieving his claim as vocally as you did? You pushed hard for his lynch and didn't listen yourself to others comments or belief's because you thought Volkan's vig claim was BS. I disagreed. I thought it is possible he was SK which I stated, but found it difficult to believe that he was mafia. I really didn't think scum had anything to gain by killing you the first time and you should have taken that into consideration before setting up your comments against the claimed vig. You could have as a cop locked him up instead of looking for his lynch of a claimed vig. I'm surprised you didn't. I find it odd that a claimed town person with a role isn't someone you would think hey maybe I should lock him up instead of vocallizing his demise. Your comments along with Albert swung the votes away from Porochaz who many felt was scum as well to Volkan. I just don't understand why you didn't pressure Porochaz for a claim after Vokan claimed. Why you were fixated on the lynch? That is why I feel you cop claim seems off.

[Porochaz]

I did claim thankyouverymuch

Farside, do you lynch scummy people or do you wait for a night investigate them, let them kill someone and then lynch them hmm?

[farside22]

I did claim thankyouverymuch

Farside, do you lynch scummy people or do you wait for a night investigate them, let them kill someone and then lynch them hmm?

Games I play if someone is locked up they cant perform night activities to kill. Your claim was vanilla townie. His claim was Vig once per game night shot. If I was the cop and had someone claim like that I would lock them up over lynching them.

[Dragon Phoenix]

Lock them up? Que?
I have never ever seen that variation - is that something that has been introduced here the past year?

[Setael]

I'm confused what you mean by lock up. It sounds like you're saying that whoever I investigate is not allowed to use their night action. I do not believe that is accurate, but I'm not sure if that's what you meant. Maybe you could clarify?

My understanding is that if vollkan was scum, he could have NK'd me last night even if I investigated him. There is no way that I have heard of for a cop's investigation to "lock up" someone so they can't use their night action. I'm not a roleblocker at all as far as I know.

I can kind of see your reasoning in regards to vollkan, but like Porochaz pointed out, I can't count on being able to investigate everyone in the game. What if I investigated vollkan and then he was NK'd? That'd be a waste. I chose to investigate the person least likely to be NKd and most generally believed to be scummy - Porochaz. If I had investigated vollkan last night, Porochaz would almost certainly have been lynched today. I had a lot of reasons for thinking vollkan was scum. It started with his interaction with ckd and his nonsensical agreement with ABR about setael1's alignment. Then, the fact that he lied about being a 1 shot. LAL. I also received a PM from ckd yelling at me for still posting in a game in which I was dead. I pointed out to him that I had replaced streeflo and I know it was a legitimate mistake on his part, but it made me think it even more likely that I was on the right track, and ckd was upset because I was on to his scum buddy. Such was not the case but is another reason I never believed vollkan.

Not sure what to think about farside doubting my claim. I tend to think mafia wouldn't push it like she is, drawing unneeded negative attention. If she did happen to get me mislynched she would immediately be under suspicion which is a big risk. If there is only 1 scum, I'd think they'd play it pretty safe at this point. However, if there's only 1 left, they pretty much have to get a power role mislynched today in order to have a chance at winning. DP has planted the seeds today of getting the doc mislynched, and farside could be trying to plant seeds to get me mislynched. For all I know BM really is lying, but imo only scum would try to get him lynched with a cop still alive that could use the protection and who could investigate the claimed doc if he happens to continue avoiding NK.

I'd also like to hear MoS' thoughts.

[Dragon Phoenix]

Neither Setael nor BM is the play today of course, and not even tomorrow, and I do resent your remark Setael ("DP has planted the seeds today of getting the doc mislynched"), which is a misprepresentation what I said.

I'm putting my money on farside now. If she is the last scum, she knows only desperate posts can save her now.

[Setael]

Resent all you want. You and I recently were in a game together where the scum left a claimed doc alive for several days. It's not like you've never seen scum WIFOM the town in that way before. So this post does not sit well with me:

More food for thought. I know the scum have been erratic a lot of the game, but WHY is a claimed doctor still alive? There is no guarantee that we have a doctor in this setup, and a doc is anyway a convenient scum claim. I don't think BM is a good lynch today, but let's not forget that he is in no way a cleared pro-town role.

when I know the scum would be motivated to set up power role mislynches if they're going to have any chance at winning this game.

[pete d]

vote: Lowell

His first big analysis brushed over ckd and Nekka, his vote on bookitty was late and bussy, day 2 he refrained from voting ckd and gave two players (setael1, who was town, and porochaz, who is assumed town for now) as his major suspicions.

[farside22]

Okay well the site I play at they have the cop ability not just as investigation person, but as a person who can lock someone up. I guess it is different here. (shrug).
Volkan at the end did not lie about being the 1 shot vig. The mod's post shows that he was what he claimed. I still thought the idea of killing Setael would be a dumb thing for the mafia to do. And since Porochaz is so big on claims and saying it is good enough all I have is a town role. The points I made wasn't because I was trying to point to Setael as deffinate scum, but more like this seems too unlikely. I still don't know why you thought Porochaz was not scum when people were voting against him and why you pushed for Volkan. I really thought he had a valid point which I stated why I thought Volkan's story was plausible.

[Porochaz]

And since Porochaz is so big on claims and saying it is good enough all I have is a town role.

Sigh have you even seen my claim?

Ive only claimed myself when I was at L-1, thats it. I dont believe Ive asked anyone else to claim. (maybe BM)

[Setael]

Made time to reread farside and pete d. I think I wrote them both off too easily.

Farside:

votes ckd after Bookitty lynch saying “I didn't care for his pressure vote on BooKitty and then unvotes because he doesn't trust Lowell.” Stays on ckd all day until mos supposedly convinces her that Porochaz and I are distancing from each other. Then says:

You seem certain she is scum andthe case against her is overwhelming. I see no reason why not to vote against her except my gut. For once I will go against my gut and go by the evidence.
unvote: vote: Satael

This is the post when farside voted for ckd:

Farside, you were convinced he was scum just a moment ago. Hammer him and let's be done with this monkey business.

I am onboard with this vote. I made the case awhile ago on CDK. Porochaz is still on my scum list after today.

unvote: vote: curiouskarmadog

After ABR's post, farside really had no choice but to vote ckd so she easily could be scum who didn't want the wagon to succeed, but had no choice. She points out that she had made a case on him earlier which could be scum wanting a good reason to be joining the wagon, rather than just following ABR.

At the beginning of today, the only 2 she listed as suspicious were Porochaz and I. About me:

Satael: This one is more due to the comment she made yesterday. She stated why would no one have died a second night in a row. I think it was possible because the person who was scum didnt send in the info. I recall that Satael took over a role of a person who really hadn't been around. She seemed bent to push the Volkan vote away from Porochaz and now her comment Post 750 seems farfetching to me.

I find it odd that she didn't state this yesterday if that's what she thinks. Almost feels like during mafia night talk they said "Porochaz and Setael will be the easiest lynches today and this is why" and she just repeated it all in this post.

There is just too much I want to say about this. I'm giving just a little leway (very little). If Lowell or DP do not turn out not to be scum I'm seriously thinking you are lying just to protect yourself from another lynch.

Unvote: vote: Lowell

As I've stated before, this quote made it look as though farside knows Lowell and/or DP would come up town, which she could then use to cast suspicion on me. Due to the Lowell vote, he's more likely the one that would come up town, so farside is more likely to be scum with DP than lowell if there are still 2.

Farside has said several times that scum would not have bussed bookitty – would have gone for a no lynch. Scum obviously would want us to think that. The main thing making me doubt that farside is scum is I don’t think scum would be so vocally against my claim – they’d know I’m telling the truth and would focus more on mislynching a townie than at doubting me like farside has.

Pete d:

How 'bout you go back and read abit. Only then will you find out that I was about to vote him but I wanted to see his PBPA he told us about.

(shrug) Those posts are really ambiguous. unvote.

This post could definitely be the godfather instructing a scum buddy to lay off, or at least to make a better case. Pete d's unvote here is odd - if there was no relationship there, I don't think he'd have unvoted.

Pete D then defends DP against jordan’s attack in his 6th post. Could definitely see DP and Pete D as scum buddies.

Has BM finished his analysis' yet?

The answer is obviously no. There is no reason to ask this question. vote: Nekka

Weird reason to vote nekka. Possibly making up for what was a fishy unvote earlier.

Ah. Well, apparently nobody else wanted to vote Nekka, and I'm not so sure about ckd anymore. Regardless, something needed to happen, the game was dragging, so I joined the BM wagon in preference to the Jordan wagon.

Now that Nekka and ckd have both cardflipped scum, this post is very incriminating. Giving up his nekka case because nobody else wanted to vote him and saying "I'm not so sure about ckd anymore" without giving reason both look much more like scum who's been distancing from both and is perfectly happy to drop the cases. I don't think a townie would've let up so easily.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I was one of the first people to seriously go after Nekka, which I did as soon as I replaced in. I was the third vote on the bookitty wagon, and voted ckd early on day 2 when I could just as easily have gone with Setael.

Seems like his motivation for all those actions was to be able to point back to it later.

I hadn't really considered this before reading him in isolation, but now I think it's possible Bookitty was just distancing from pete d - maybe hoping to bus him for town points. ABR didn't buy the case and it ended up in a Bookitty quick lynch.

He then hammers vollkan without giving reason. Scummy. Though there's reason to think it's any of the 4 possibile players, after rereading I'm actually thinking pete d is the most likely.

unvote, vote: Pete d

[Setael]

Just realized another strike against pete d.

unvote need to reread to decide between Lowell and farside

What about DP? Do you have a reason for auto assuming it's not DP?

[Shanba]

Bah. I hope MoS has time to answer my question.

[farside22]

Made time to reread farside and pete d. I think I wrote them both off too easily.

Farside:

votes ckd after Bookitty lynch saying “I didn't care for his pressure vote on BooKitty and then unvotes because he doesn't trust Lowell.” Stays on ckd all day until mos supposedly convinces her that Porochaz and I are distancing from each other. Then says:

You seem certain she is scum andthe case against her is overwhelming. I see no reason why not to vote against her except my gut. For once I will go against my gut and go by the evidence.
unvote: vote: Satael

This is the post when farside voted for ckd:

Farside, you were convinced he was scum just a moment ago. Hammer him and let's be done with this monkey business.

I am onboard with this vote. I made the case awhile ago on CDK. Porochaz is still on my scum list after today.

unvote: vote: curiouskarmadog

After ABR's post, farside really had no choice but to vote ckd so she easily could be scum who didn't want the wagon to succeed, but had no choice. She points out that she had made a case on him earlier which could be scum wanting a good reason to be joining the wagon, rather than just following ABR.

At the beginning of today, the only 2 she listed as suspicious were Porochaz and I. About me:

Satael: This one is more due to the comment she made yesterday. She stated why would no one have died a second night in a row. I think it was possible because the person who was scum didnt send in the info. I recall that Satael took over a role of a person who really hadn't been around. She seemed bent to push the Volkan vote away from Porochaz and now her comment Post 750 seems farfetching to me.

I find it odd that she didn't state this yesterday if that's what she thinks. Almost feels like during mafia night talk they said "Porochaz and Setael will be the easiest lynches today and this is why" and she just repeated it all in this post.

There is just too much I want to say about this. I'm giving just a little leway (very little). If Lowell or DP do not turn out not to be scum I'm seriously thinking you are lying just to protect yourself from another lynch.

Unvote: vote: Lowell

As I've stated before, this quote made it look as though farside knows Lowell and/or DP would come up town, which she could then use to cast suspicion on me. Due to the Lowell vote, he's more likely the one that would come up town, so farside is more likely to be scum with DP than lowell if there are still 2.

Farside has said several times that scum would not have bussed bookitty – would have gone for a no lynch. Scum obviously would want us to think that. The main thing making me doubt that farside is scum is I don’t think scum would be so vocally against my claim – they’d know I’m telling the truth and would focus more on mislynching a townie than at doubting me like farside has.

Pete d:

How 'bout you go back and read abit. Only then will you find out that I was about to vote him but I wanted to see his PBPA he told us about.

(shrug) Those posts are really ambiguous. unvote.

This post could definitely be the godfather instructing a scum buddy to lay off, or at least to make a better case. Pete d's unvote here is odd - if there was no relationship there, I don't think he'd have unvoted.

Pete D then defends DP against jordan’s attack in his 6th post. Could definitely see DP and Pete D as scum buddies.

Has BM finished his analysis' yet?

The answer is obviously no. There is no reason to ask this question. vote: Nekka

Weird reason to vote nekka. Possibly making up for what was a fishy unvote earlier.

Ah. Well, apparently nobody else wanted to vote Nekka, and I'm not so sure about ckd anymore. Regardless, something needed to happen, the game was dragging, so I joined the BM wagon in preference to the Jordan wagon.

Now that Nekka and ckd have both cardflipped scum, this post is very incriminating. Giving up his nekka case because nobody else wanted to vote him and saying "I'm not so sure about ckd anymore" without giving reason both look much more like scum who's been distancing from both and is perfectly happy to drop the cases. I don't think a townie would've let up so easily.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I was one of the first people to seriously go after Nekka, which I did as soon as I replaced in. I was the third vote on the bookitty wagon, and voted ckd early on day 2 when I could just as easily have gone with Setael.

Seems like his motivation for all those actions was to be able to point back to it later.

I hadn't really considered this before reading him in isolation, but now I think it's possible Bookitty was just distancing from pete d - maybe hoping to bus him for town points. ABR didn't buy the case and it ended up in a Bookitty quick lynch.

He then hammers vollkan without giving reason. Scummy. Though there's reason to think it's any of the 4 possibile players, after rereading I'm actually thinking pete d is the most likely.

unvote, vote: Pete d

In regards to my comments. I was more certain about CKD then voting against you. There was a lot of evidence people stated against you at the time and I agreed that is was hard not to ignore. I felt that CKD was the right vote. However when CKD voted against himself and Albert changed his vote and asked for me to change back I was almost felt relief at doing so. I went with the same thoughts I had on CKD that I saw Porochaz do the same and saw that not only was Porochaz not paying attention, but voting against Lowell. I found it odd and was more for lynching Porochaz yesterday then Volkan. If you think I'm scum let me say one thing on my behalf. I really wanted to throw it in Albert's face that I was right and he was wrong and I would have kept him alive to do just that. Sorry, but I would love to gloat after everything he said how wrong he was.
As for pete d I'm not sure and I have doubts that he is scum. He was the one to question BooKitty in the first place and her comment and vote back strikes me as more her fear of being caught then trying to buss her partner. So between DP and Lowell I would go with Lowell as scum.

[Setael]

Why did you quote my whole post like that? No reason to lengthen the thread like that unless you're going to insert your comments within mine or something.

Also, that's a pretty thorough and simple dismissal of my case on pete d. You did read it, right? Did you think all my points were totally invalid?

[farside22]

I will admit to laziness in my post of not editing it better and just plain tiredness. I know scum buss there buddies to look town, however the interplay you highlighted just shows me that pete felt nekka comments were scummie. When people ignore you sometimes you just want to give up. (I know I have sometimes) I usually don't see scum talking that much to each other in games. They usually like to distance themselves better and occasionally interact. So the play between Pete and Bookitty/ Nekka just seems like him trying to push at someone he's got a feel on.
I know someone who once voted against someone and they turned out to be scum and the way the person acted made me think they were bussing their partner. He had us fooled completely and we lost badly in that game. So no I don't always see it as bussing sometimes it is the interaction and what is said or not said that catches my eye.

[Setael]

ok, but does it make sense that Pete D would drop his cases so easily if he was town? All your talking about is how much they interacted.

I'll repeat here what I think is scummiest about his interaction with both nekka and ckd:

Ah. Well, apparently nobody else wanted to vote Nekka, and I'm not so sure about ckd anymore. Regardless, something needed to happen, the game was dragging, so I joined the BM wagon in preference to the Jordan wagon.

Now that Nekka and ckd have both cardflipped scum, this post is very incriminating. Giving up his nekka case because nobody else wanted to vote him and saying "I'm not so sure about ckd anymore" without giving reason both look much more like scum who's been distancing from both and is perfectly happy to drop the cases. I don't think a townie would've let up so easily.