Mini 535: Pick Your Poison 2 (Game Over!)

[Patrick]

Votecount

Gorrad (2) -- Ether, YvonneSeer
YvonneSeer (2) -- JDodge, Gorrad
Mizzy (1) -- Porochaz

Not voting: Bookitty, Mizzy, JordanA24, Setael, scotmany12, Lulubelle
11 alive, 6 to lynch.

[Lulubelle]

Mafia chose roles, first, though, didn't they? I can see how it might be reasoned that we'd give them a Godfather...it's one of the safest.

Bleh, this is a good point.

Did they? I wasn't here for the role selection. But in either case, point b is the important one. A cop is not very valuable when he can't make his claim believed and our own incredulousness would doom a cop to obscurity

at best

.

[Mizzy]

and Mizzy you COULD of unvoted... but you didn't, dont try and pass this off otherwise, you voted and said noone else vote thats like saying "Dont press this big huge button with the word push on it". You failed to act, whats more you knew what you were doing when you said it, and that to me makes you more scummy than the person who hammered

I could have unvoted, but I did not, because I honestly thought he was scum and I try very hard not to be wishy-washy on my votes. I take full responsibility for that. But it doesn't make me more scummy because I'm not scum. It makes me fallible.

and no I dont expect a claim, I was just wondering how a town alliance actually helps the town... I mean how do you know Lulubelle and Yvonne are town?

You already know how a town alliance could help...you already said it, yourself. Secondly, I DON'T know they are town...it's just a guess based on information.

[YvonneSeer]

Let me add this up...

I am arguing against you about something you said to Gorrad. Therefore I am defending Gorrad...

WRONG!!!

Im not arguing Gorrads alignment, I am arguing about yours.

Your arguing that because Im arguing against you I am scum... You reming me of someone doing a dot to dot puzzle of a cat and instead getting a christmas tree...

WRONG!!!

I clearly suspect you of being scum even back in D1 and your attempt to throw as much suspicion my way is as scummy as you were in D1.

Your arguments are not strong and are peppered with analogies that do not relate to the game. But they amuse me nonetheless.

[YvonneSeer]

Ok, I'll openly state this too. Because I thought that a cop was a nigh-impossible role to have among us, as well as with the fact that, due to a possibility of insanity, it would be considerably easy to fake, I found that Skitzer's claim was BS and therefore I voted him.

If he was scum, he could have easily claimed results the next day, saying that he was insane once they led to lynched town. The next day, he could claim that he got an inocent result, leading the town to ANOTHER lynched townie. He'd be killed the third day, but not after taking at least two lynched townies with him. Also, as I thought that there was no chance for there to be a cop, I figured there wouldn't be a counterclaim.

Yes, this is all your opinion. I have a different opinion and I would have wanted to discuss this. If you were pro-town and convinced that lynching the claimed cop was the right thing to do, you could have stated your argument as such instead of quickhammering like a scum.

[Mizzy]

Yes, this is all your opinion. I have a different opinion and I would have wanted to discuss this. If you were pro-town and convinced that lynching the claimed cop was the right thing to do, you could have stated your argument as such instead of quickhammering like a scum.

It also makes me wonder....Gorrad SAW me asking questions and not unvoting. Convenient.

[Gorrad]

It also makes me wonder....Gorrad SAW me asking questions and not unvoting. Convenient.

I don't follow.

[Mizzy]

It also makes me wonder....Gorrad SAW me asking questions and not unvoting. Convenient.

I don't follow.

Weren't you curious as to the answers? Did you think a few more minutes would make that much of a difference? Or did you vote knowing I was actively viewing the thread and didn't want ME to unvote? Just questions.

[Gorrad]

I was not curious at all, and frankly found the point irrelivant. It seems to me, from early day 1 and pre-game, that the consensus was that there was a weak doc. No matter how he answered, and there's really only one way he COULD answer, niether of our opinions would have changed.

[Mizzy]

I was not curious at all, and frankly found the point irrelivant. It seems to me, from early day 1 and pre-game, that the consensus was that there was a weak doc. No matter how he answered, and there's really only one way he COULD answer, niether of our opinions would have changed.

True, very true. Thanks for answering.

I very much agree on your earlier point, too, that it would have taken too much time and too much possibility of collateral damage to actually find out what kind of cop he was.

[Bookitty]

My apologies for not posting more lately. I've had consistent problems reaching the site, and then this weekend (when they cleared up) I've been really busy.

Gorrad did a ridiculously scummy thing. I'm just not sure it makes him scum. I for one had not seen Skitzer's claim until after he was lynched. Quickhammering, though, only makes sense if the scum gave us a doc. The absence of a nightkill points to that. We know that the scum sent in a night choice, because night ended early.

You've all been pretty fast getting in nightchoices, which is awesome.

I can't see any advantage to scum in not making a nightkill. So we have a doc of some sort.

So the scum would know we had a doc AND a cop, and they'd have a motivation for wanting the cop dead as soon as possible, because otherwise we'd be in the position of outed cop, hidden doc, which is completely favourable to town. Skitzer's play was pretty horribly scummy, but I imagine the scum wouldn't feel they could take that chance. Still, I don't see them being as blatant as Gorrad was. If Gorrad KNEW there was a cop, then he knew he was making himself a target by hammering. Now I'm into WIFOM, and I can't say with any certainty, but I think he wouldn't have done that.

An inconsistency I would like explained:

Right now, I am suspicious of everyone in here but one person.

You already know how a town alliance could help...you already said it, yourself. Secondly, I DON'T know they are town...it's just a guess based on information.

Are you suspicious of them, or do you think they are town? What makes you think each of them is town, apart from them having called a lot of attention to themselves in different ways?

And a few other questions I have:

JDodge, why do you think I'm likely town?

Porochaz, what's your opinion on Gorrad?

Ether, do you think Mizzy and Gorrad are likely scumbuddies?

[JDodge]

jesus christ i go away for 6 hours and there's 3 new pages

i'll work my way through it now including Jordan's meta-ignorant BS and Mizzy's constant defense of everyone who she can get to

[JDodge]

Your vote was on Skitz, and you switched your vote off him just as his wagon was dying down, onto someone who had 3 votes, and was in the lead in terms of votes even before you voted them. Pretty much the definition of Opportunism.

I love how you ignore my earlier post where I

said

I would switch to the Yvonne wagon if it picked up more steam. It's called reaching a compromise, something which is being continually squashed out of mafia by people constantly yelling "OPPORTUNISM" at every little thing they can.

Oh, well how are we supposed to find the scum without any content? And this trumped-up bullshit you refer to are the scumtells that townies look out for to catch the scum, so why are you complaining about it's presence?

I want people playing the game, not bullshit. Go read some games from back in the older days; you'll see what I mean really quick.

Well, that explains the vote swith, but at the same time, it gives you an excuse to be opportunistic, which is worse than before, since it just confirms you were being opportunistic rather than maybe accidently looking so.

YES YOU WEREN'T ACTUALLY BEING OPPORTUNISTIC YOU WERE BEING

OPPORTUNISTIC

Sorry, but sometimes you need a post the size of half a novel to get your feelings across properly, IMO, more content=more text to analyse=more scum/towntells to be found, this should be true to a reasonable extent.

more "content" = more text to

over

analyze = more red herrings to be found, this is true

Why did you include the underlined part?

To acknowledge my finding the tell. Notice how I did not expand on whom it was.

Why did you say you were going to shift votes anyway?

To establish my willingness to compromise.

[JDodge]

@JDodge: You didn't answer my question. Again, why do you still think that Yvonne is scum? I want to know.

I would suggest you read my previous posts, I believe I outlined it fairly clearly way back when although I might be mistaken

Since you seem to be heavily implying that you feel I am scum, why don't you just come outright and say it instead of beating around the bush with shadily-worded, weaselly little responses.

Actually, before saying anything to this, let me ask you this:

I am now certain that the scum group is one of:

Yvonne-Ether-Mizzy

OR

Yvonne-skitzer-someone else other than Mizzy or Ether.

Do you or do you not still believe this and stand by it? The answer is going to mean a lot so please think it over carefully.

This is not conditional. I will answer your question as soon as you give me an actual response.

I did, yup. I didn't expect Gorrad to hammer irresponsibly. Out of the few of us that hadn't voted, I was pretty sure that Scot wouldn't vote (playstyle) and I didn't think Yvonne or Gorrad would vote/post so soon.

You saw the possibility for something, you saw the dangers within, but you did nothing to prevent it because you "didn't expect it"?

JDodge, why do you think I'm likely town?

No comment. I have my reasons.

[Mizzy]

Right now, I am suspicious of everyone in here but one person.

Are you suspicious of them, or do you think they are town? What makes you think each of them is town, apart from them having called a lot of attention to themselves in different ways?

I'm suspicious of everyone, as I said, but one person, because everyone's done and said some pretty scummy stuff. That said, I feel Yvonne and Lulu are pro-town because they have said/done some things that make me feel that way. I have already explained why.

I can be suspicious of everyone and still find some of them to be possibly town. Nothing is black and white. All of us have done something scummy looking in this game. Does that mean I should clump you all together? No, of course not.

[Mizzy]

I would suggest you read my previous posts, I believe I outlined it fairly clearly way back when although I might be mistaken

I mean NOW, Day 2, with new information.

This is not conditional. I will answer your question as soon as you give me an actual response.

Because the ANSWER you give to the scum-buddy-groupings you gave will tell me whether you are just moronic town who's extremely wrong or whether you are scum. So answer, and depending, I will either call you scum to your face and vote you, or I will not.

You saw the possibility for something, you saw the dangers within, but you did nothing to prevent it because you "didn't expect it"?

That sentence is inherently contradictory. I didn't expect it, so no, I didn't really realize there was a possibility.

[JDodge]

This is not conditional. I will answer your question as soon as you give me an actual response.

Because the ANSWER you give to the scum-buddy-groupings you gave will tell me whether you are just moronic town who's extremely wrong or whether you are scum. So answer, and depending, I will either call you scum to your face and vote you, or I will not.

Thank you for your response. Yes, they have changed. No, I will not post new ones now because I need more time to think on them.

You saw the possibility for something, you saw the dangers within, but you did nothing to prevent it because you "didn't expect it"?

That sentence is inherently contradictory. I didn't expect it, so no, I didn't really realize there was a possibility.

But you'd already

said

you saw the dangers and possibilities there. The only person contradicting here is you.

[Mizzy]

Thank you for your response. Yes, they have changed. No, I will not post new ones now because I need more time to think on them.

No worries, thanks for responding, too. Just wanted to know about those specific groupings.

@All:

As for the whole Why-didn't-Mizzy-unvote thing, I honestly believed, as I said, that he was a) scum, b) fakeclaiming, and c) I didn't think Gorrad (or anyone else) was around yet to hammer him. I don't think I would have removed my vote, anyway, until I saw something substantial from Skitz.

I'm sorry that my discovery of the scumtell ultimately caused his mislynch, and I am sorry that my conviction got him prematurely hammered. Well, mostly sorry. I'm still pretty miffed at his poor play. But the loss of a townie is never a good thing, and for that I am sorry.

That's all I can say; I made a mistake. I don't expect anyone else to understand...and I'm carefully re-evaluating my scumlist based on the current information so that I hopefully will not make another mistake.

[Ether]

Ether, do you think Mizzy and Gorrad are likely scumbuddies?

(sigh) No, I don't. With the encryptor in play, Mizzyscum could have handed Gorradscum her material and let him hammer without posting and drawing attention to her lack of unvote, making the hammer smoother on both of them.

Nice catch, Mizzy. Skitzer, will you clarify this please? I don't like it at all, but I'm willing to give you a shot at defending yourself.

I didn't vote when I did because I thought others would unvote, I did so because every single sign was pointing towards him being scum, and I vote people when that happens. It doesn't matter if it's the fist vote, the third vote, the last vote, whatever! When I find someone scummy, I vote them.

Note that Gorrad initially held off--he voted

only after Skitzer claimed.

Now...generally, when someone claims a power role that I don't have, I consider that a damn good reason to keep that claimed power role

alive

for a bit. Or at least a bit of realtime. Suspicion doesn't enter into it.

This is odd, considering you wanted a Bookitty lynch Page 3, and you were wondering why perfect was still alive on Page 7, I got the feeling you were a fan of shorter days, so the fact you didn't want a deadline when offered so is interesting.

All short days are not created equal; I would not support a fast lynch on someone whom I do not actually believe to be scum. (Also, I've already said that my timeframe preference is mostly a façade to draw attention to the people I want lynched. Also also, using a deadline to get my way feels too underhanded for my liking, anyway.)

How does one comment make someone scum?

I'm not sure what you're asking; I gave my rationale.

(I will admit that Ever's reaction doesn't impress me, either.)

Mizzy, you are defending Lulubelle and Yvonne like theres no tomorrow. I, for one am not being tunnelvisioned, however I do feel Yvonne is scummy, there is a difference. However this weird dynamic between the three of you is coming from you mainly defending the other 2 so

vote Mizzy

Y'know...there are many, many things that can be said against Mizzy which would be valid.

This isn't one of them.

[Gorrad]

Nice catch, Mizzy. Skitzer, will you clarify this please? I don't like it at all, but I'm willing to give you a shot at defending yourself.

I forgot I said that. My philosophy changed.

This is why I voted. I told him I'd give him a shot to explain his abrupt, significant change in attitude, his only response was that he changed his mind. The what-I-thought-to-be-BS claim was just icing on the cake.

[Setael]

That was a lot to digest. These quotes made me think of something:

Theory: Scum would have known that a) we would likely give them a godfather, weakening the cop, and b) that we would be convinced that scum would never give us a cop, therefore we wouldn't believe a cop claim made under any circumstances. In that situation, cop becomes the single weakest role, not the strongest, and therefore giving us one would be a smart scum play.

A cop is not very valuable when he can't make his claim believed and our own incredulousness would doom a cop to obscurity at best.

So the scum would know we had a doc AND a cop, and they'd have a motivation for wanting the cop dead as soon as possible, because otherwise we'd be in the position of outed cop, hidden doc, which is completely favourable to town. Skitzer's play was pretty horribly scummy, but I imagine the scum wouldn't feel they could take that chance. Still, I don't see them being as blatant as Gorrad was. If Gorrad KNEW there was a cop, then he knew he was making himself a target by hammering. Now I'm into WIFOM, and I can't say with any certainty, but I think he wouldn't have done that.

With how scummy skitzer's play was, I think the mafia would've been confident he'd get hammered without their help, and I agree (WIFOM or no) that it's unlikely they'd draw attention to themselves hammering like gorrad did. If he's scum, that's not only ballsy, but it would be an unnecessary risk.

It's possible I'm biased because as soon as I read skitzer's claim (though it was after the hammer) I was sure he had been caught in a lie he couldn't explain and had given up - scum just claiming an impossible role to mess with us. I don't think I'd have unvoted since I was sure he was about to come up scum.

I need to reread. A lot of my suspicions don't really jive with today's posts so far.

[YvonneSeer]

Now...generally, when someone claims a power role that I don't have, I consider that a damn good reason to keep that claimed power role alive for a bit. Or at least a bit of realtime. Suspicion doesn't enter into it.

Does nobody else think this way? Regardless of any issues regarding the sanity of the cop and how many nights it would take to prove himself, if there is a possibility he is a real cop, he is on

our

side and should not be lynched in favour of real scum.

Also, if you truly 100% believe that what you're about to do is the right play for town, you should state your case and reasons, wait for the others to weigh in, and if the majority of town are convinced as well and keep their votes on, then you can hammer away. There is no reason why Gorrad could not have waited, except that he was afraid to lose the opportunity to lynch the cop.

Besides, the scum know for sure that he is a cop, that he has 50% chance of being sane and that there is a hidden doc somewhere out there. The cop is a threat to them and I'm pretty sure they would rather have the cop dead than some random townie.

There seems to be some kind of WIFOM reasoning going around about Gorrad's hammer. It's true, it looks crazy for scum to out themselves so easily, but scum can pull if off successfully due to town thinking it's unlikely. Also, I don't think Gorrad used this particular WIFOM to defend himself, which is something I have to give him credit for.

Regarding Mizzy, it also looks possible that she's scum who didn't unvote and waited for someone like Gorrad to hammer. It's a possibility that I have to keep in mind. Anyway, they're most likely not scumbuddies together, it's one or the other. They could both be townies too, though I still believe it's Gorrad who is scum.

[Porochaz]

Bookie: I think Ether said it best, you'd better have a damned good reason if your going to go after a claimed cop no matter how unlikely it sounds...

[Bookitty]

Bookie: I think Ether said it best, you'd better have a damned good reason if your going to go after a claimed cop no matter how unlikely it sounds...

True, but not exactly what I meant. It's clear that most of us don't agree that Gorrad was right to quickhammer. But do you think it's more likely that he was town who got overeager and overly certain, or scum looking to kill off the cop before the cop could attract the (now nearly certain to exist) hidden doc's protection and do some investigations?

Sorry the question was unclear.

[Porochaz]

It certainly caught my eye and I would be voting for him if I didn't feel Mizzy-Yvonne-Lulu were scummier... I feel that whilst Gorrads vote was scummy the "don't vote for skitzer even though Im not unvoting to make sure" was more scummy... I don't feel theres an valid excuse for that. Anyway, your question was about gorrad and my answer is town for now, however if Mizzy or Yvonne were to be lynched and come up town I would certainly take a closer look.