PIRATES v. NINJAS! Game Over!

[cicero]

I hereby do confirm in the thread.

[cicero]

vote claus

. Christmas is over, beotch.

[cicero]

Unvote, Vote: Gorrad

Are you suggesting that mass-claiming is, in fact,

not

the pro-town thing to do?

I don't understand this vote and accompanying language at all. Can you please explain why you are voting Gorrad to me like I'm a three year old. Thanks.

[cicero]

believe me, I am very upset at not being able to lynch DBG day one. Really pissed off, actually.

Because you didnt care if she was town or scum.

How do you justify that?

[cicero]

Which means you arent disappointed at not getting to lynch her at all. You are thrilled that she got nightkilled. So you lied.

Or you want to waste the town's day on a personal (albeit understandable having wanted to pull my hair out while playing with her) vendetta. Your stated preference is that you hoped an extremely distracting player would stay alive so she could distract the town all day one. Which we both know results in a far less useful day one.

I see that as far scummier than say, Iammers, silly pirate yar that took up so much of the last 10 pages of, as Thesp so aptly put it, verbal diarrhea.

[cicero]

I like DGB as a person. I found her extremely frustrating in the one game I was in with her. But that's neither here nor there. What is notable is TSQs approach to the issue. Not necessarily worth a vote yet though. I mean there's WIFOM, right. Flameaxe and TSQ are all "lets lynch DGB" and then she's dead. Which TSQ is too smart too have done unless he really is playing a WIFOM gamble and getting rid of a person he loathes. Which I CAN see him doing. I CANNOT see him actually wishing she was alive on day one so he could fuck with her. I think he takes his games more seriously than that.

So I think him saying that is bull.

[cicero]

No, as happy as I am that she's not in the game anymore, I would take pleasure in lynching her. If you think it's "Scummy" or whatever, I have history of doing personal things in games before as town. Check out Bad idea II for an example.

I'll check your link but anti-town is anti-town. It's noted. I'm not voting based on it yet.

[cicero]

I like DGB as a person. I found her extremely frustrating in the one game I was in with her. But that's neither here nor there. What is notable is TSQs approach to the issue. Not necessarily worth a vote yet though. I mean there's WIFOM, right. Flameaxe and TSQ are all "lets lynch DGB" and then she's dead. Which TSQ is too smart too have done unless he really is playing a WIFOM gamble and getting rid of a person he loathes. Which I CAN see him doing. I CANNOT see him actually wishing she was alive on day one so he could fuck with her. I think he takes his games more seriously than that.

So I think him saying that is bull.

Whoa whoa whoa. Where do I fit into this exactly? I have done no such thing, and I do not appreciate it.

Really?

Who's up for lynching DGB? Lets make a challenge of it and see if we can do it by page 4.

Confirm and /in.

And DGB ends up dead.

Frankly I wouldnt vote for either of you based on it alone because I pretty much assumed DGB's kill was designed to make you look bad. It was TSQ's response that made me raise my eyebrows a bit though.

But since you asked why you are implicated, now you know.

[cicero]

Ok. Now THAT one is a stretch. Even for you this is bad C.

Yup. I'm a dumbass. No talent whatsoever. Go back under your rock now.

[cicero]

Incidentally, I'm not accusing you whatsoever flameaxe. The odds of you two being on the same team are too slim. Maybe you are misreading that.

[cicero]

Ok. Now THAT one is a stretch. Even for you this is bad C.

Yup. I'm a dumbass. No talent whatsoever. Go back under your rock now.

I don't plan on it. I can't let a dumbass run wild like that, taking advantage of whatever random pre-game posts he can get his hands on. This is just plain silly, and your argument with Shea is getting us nowhere.

right as opposed to your argument with... oh. right. Nevermind.

[cicero]

Incidentally, I'm not accusing you whatsoever flameaxe. The odds of you two being on the same team are too slim. Maybe you are misreading that.

Thats not the point. You are being a fucking dumbass, is all. Please, save us all. We get enough frustration from you as it is.

K. Your opinion is noted. And given all the importance it usually is.

[cicero]

Cicero, flameaxe...

Where the hell have you two been?
And why choose to interject on this issue, cicero? Have you read the thread, fully?

Flameaxe -- nothing important came up until you were attacked? And you find cicero's mention of you

completely

out of place, given he mentioned tsq?

Ive been waiting for the verbal diarrhea to settle down. There was enough throw down that I didnt feel like I could write anything sensible without it being either a) said already, or b) out of date by the time it got said. It really was speeding along for a while there and a lot of it did NOT impress me.

I have notes up to page 6 or 7 or so. TSQ's interjection was something I could actually flag that hadnt already been said or flagged.

This weekend I should be able to write something about what I think of this day so far which includes Iammers wagon, Gorrad wagon,Guardian attacks and Thesp attacks/wagon... etcetera.

[cicero]

Cicero, I am axctually one of the least serious players on this site. I consider the game to be something for fun. Being uber serious about it only makes it not fun anymore. This is why PJ doesn't play anymore that much, I think.

That isnt my experience with you. When I say you take your games seriously it doesnt mean you dont have fun. It means I know in another game you have spoken about leaving your feuds out of the game. Now in this game you are bragging about bringing them in. So... lying then or lying now. Or do I just let you get away with it cuz "shhhh...ongoing?"

Admittedly Im just getting to know you as a player, but as stupid as flameaxe clearly knows me to be, I know inconsistency when I see it. Even without inconsistency, like I said, I know anti-town when I see it.

[cicero]

Heh, First of all, bringing in ongoing games is meh. Second, ZA is a different case from DGB. ZA I hate OOG, thus I don't feel comfortable punishing him in game. DGB I hate in game, and am somewhat ambivalent about OOG. Therefore I feel fine taking active measures to get her out of a game I'm in. I will probably have to make the same push in the other game you're mentioning.

Thanks for distinguishing. your distinction makes sense to me and I accept it. She can indeed be highly distracting.

But that leads me back to seeing you killing her night zero.

See, I have trouble figuring out why most scum would. I think she's generally beneficial to scum because she's so distracting. So either your personal animus is why she's dead or she's dead because someone wants to make you look bad. Or someone went eeny meeny minee moe. I dont think she was killed because of her masterful scum hunting.

So when you said you wished she was in here to lynch I didnt believe you. I think she annoys you to a point where you just want her gone.

And now since, by your own admission, you dont take the game that seriously I can see you saying "I'll kill her and will be shielded by WIFOM and if I'm not and I die, fuck it. It's just a game."

[cicero]

So you will continue to invent scenarios in your mind where I am scum no matter what I say? The question at that point becomes "Why am I still talking to you?" then.

Not at all. Im not interested, unlike some people in here, in running up big wagons based on shitfumes. It's just that your explanation didnt really change the final conclusion. Maybe you could have said something that made me go "oh fair enough" and leave it. But you didnt. You said something that made me go "oh fair enough. But...wait a second..."

[cicero]

Cicero, so, you've been reading the game -- and even taking notes -- but didn't want to comment, and instead decided it would be better to wait until the dust settled?

Yes. This is an accurate restatement of what I explicitly said. I might add that on at least one occasion I foolishly tried to interject with a moderately lengthy response, forgot to cut it to clipboard, and had it destroyed by a delicious CPU quota error. Oh, I also asked a question to someone that completely ignored and washed away as I recall.

Hit Preview: Prima facia, cicero's n1 death speculation makes a little sense. But n1 death speculation is always iffy :\.

Totally iffy. Just not quite as iffy as "hey, he talked like a pirate!!!!"

[cicero]

Not at all. Im not interested, unlike some people in here, in running up big wagons based on shitfumes.

Who might

those

people be? Name names, please.

"OMG. He talked like a pirate."

[cicero]

Guardian: Flameaxe is telling you that I never attacked him. You keep saying I did. Yet I did not. I attacked (if you can call it that :p) TSQ.

However, Flameaxe, your response is not enough because you certainly PERCEIVED an attack. And that's the only time you decided to speak up. So it isnt an answer.

You two on the same page now?

[cicero]

Not at all. Im not interested, unlike some people in here, in running up big wagons based on shitfumes.

Who might

those

people be? Name names, please.

"OMG. He talked like a pirate."

Yeah, I take huge issue with this.

I wanted attention, sure. A wagon sure. But based on shitfumes? At the point I brought it up? What better was there? Even now, his confirming is not forgotten -- I definitely don't think that it was irrelevant.

And you accuse me, like it is some treasonous act to bring up something you think is suspicious. I'd also like to bring up that I *voted* Iammars. Others *wagoned* him. You find me more suspicious than those who followed?

Nope. I find those that followed you at least equally suspicious. Maybe more. I figured there was a good chance you were doing something to get discussion started. That seemed relatively pro-town to me. Though I thought the general proposition was bullshit. The fact that it got so much traction is what began to worry me. I'll be giving it a good think once this week at work is over. You and Thesp have both raised my eyebrows. But I need to sit down on saturday with a cuppa joe and think.

Are you saying that your play thus far in the game, considering that you were reading the game -- is totally defensible as pro-town? It was good for you to read and take notes and keep to yourself?

Until I have something worthwhile to say that hasnt been said? Yes. Lurkers drive me crazy though. Ask anybody. There's no way I'd stay inactive for long. But letting you and Thesp tire out. Ab-so-fucking-lutely. It wasnt so much pro-town of me as it was completely necessary for me. Maybe it's because I have a full time job and some semblance of a social life, but I couldnt keep up and interject in the way I like to interject. And as it is you'll still need to wait for saturday or sunday for me to really weigh in. Don't like that? Here's some rope.

[cicero]

Ninja'd means that you were writing something, and someone else wrote the exact same thing in the time that it took you to write your post. Forum jargon.

I'm pretty sure that in this game saying Ninja'd makes you pirate scum.

(Oh come on. Someone had to say it. :p)

[cicero]

Rereading past bit,
I sit at my computer.
Cicero, post soon !

Yeah... you should know I suffer from oppositional defiance disorder. For future reference.

translation: when I'm goddamn good and ready.

hugs and kisses,

Cicero.

[cicero]

Cicero I read what you wrote on page 11. You can't honestly believe anyone would be that dense would you?

Well, I honestly believed every word I wrote on 11 so, the answer is yes.

[cicero]

Claus sums up a Gorrad case well in 202.

[cicero]

Thesp was pushing too hard, and too seriously, a much too silly bandwagon. And then later he begins to cheer both bandwagons. Thus the vote.

I believe this means that Thesp was fairly honest about believing in those wagons, which seems like a protown point of view to me.

I don't see why people are going after Thesp and not Guardian/TSQ, who were equally bad in pushing a silly wagon and IMHO did less in trying to analyze it/justify their reasons.

I'll also point out that TSQ/Guardian can't be pirate/ninja town, given their reactions to the secret discussion, and both are a bit too eager initially to accept the automatic pirate/ninja=scum theories.

Also, does anybody actually feel TSQ's reaction to my vote on him was a protown reaction? He fairly clearly tried to frame my vote in convoluted ways in an attempt to discredit it.

Overall I've been good with your play Thok but I can't accept that Thesp was totally honest. His pushing of the Iammers wagon was the thing so far that seemed most disingenuous to me.

On the TSQ side, I'm on the fence, but I thought your comments did look like a veiled accusation of TSQ lurking, for the record. Not that that would be scummy if you thought he was. I'm more surprised that you immediately backpedaled from that interpretation instead of just accepting his explanation - debating tournament or whatever.

At the same time, I havent seen TSQ as remotely pro-town. His play today has been openly doing scummy things and his defense thereof is "what what? so what!" That includes calling the Iammers wagon a good wagon, then jumping on the next big wagon, and finally his responses re: the DGB death.

[cicero]

I'm sorry but the most obvious scenario points to pirate/ninja scum and a possible serial killer. DGB was a pirate finder who was "forced to walk the plank". The flavor of her being Jack Aubrey (from Master and Commander and related books) also points to the idea of Pirates as scum since another idea, like say a mason finder, doesnt fit nearly as elegantly.

MBL had his throat slit AND head bashed in. A slit throat is the kind of thing I would expect from a ninja. Sneak up and dispatch in the most silent way possible. I dont see Ninjas bashing heads so my guess is that's a third actor. And probably a bad guy too. Heads being bashed in seems more serial killer than SK to me.

Now, should we accept that this is the definitive scenario? No. We dont know. Any of them COULD be a vigilante. And most importantly, we dont NEED to know on day one. That having been said though, I dont find people acting on these ideas as the most probable scenario remotely scummy. So of people who are "a bit too eager initially to accept the automatic pirate/ninja=scum theories." You can add my name too. Oh look at my shiny Occam's Razor. It glows in the light.

[cicero]

Ebwop: "More serial killer than vigilante" I meant.

[cicero]

There's a difference between what you've said and what TSQ said (Guardian is closer to you than TSQ). You've made comments of the form "X is the most likely theory because of Ockham's razor". TSQ made a comment that completely ruled out a possible alternative theory (his comments about Iammars' possible responses to Thesp's question in particular. TSQ completely ruled out even the possibility of Iammars being pirate town.)

Ah. This brings up a clarification I think needs making: Iammars wrote:

Thirdly, since Thesp asked nicely, I will claim pirate/not pirate. I'm not a pirate. However, I'm not too familiar with my character, so I'm not 100% sure.

Some people seem to have read this as Iammars saying that he is "sort of a pirate sort of not". By my reading, that isnt what he is saying. What he is saying is "I will claim whether I am a pirate or not" and goes on to deny being a pirate.

@Iammars - Can you confirm or deny that I am correct in this interpretation?

[cicero]

Iammars said that he wasn't a pirate, but he is unfamiliar with he role so there is a small chance that he is mistaken on that assumption.

Yep. That I know, but I thought his phrasing made people think there was sort of a 50/50 shot rather than the "not a pirate unless I'm mistaken" supposition he was making.

The one thing that is highly disturbing to me is Iammers claim that he can't research his character. With the internet at my disposal there is practically NOTHING I cant become familiar with in a few hours. I simply do not believe that he can't figure out his flavor unless Stoofer made it up out of whole cloth.

@Iammars: Try harder or stop fibbing. And don't give me a "not worth my time and energy" response unless you are indeed the laziest sloth in the universe.

(Remember: Just because I thought the pirate confirmation post case against Iammars was nonsense doesn't mean I think he's obv-town. A stopped clock is right twice a day after all.)

[cicero]

Also, it's not my fault I never heard about my character before, and Wikipedia sure isn't helping me.

And how does this post say that I can't find it in Wikipedia?

Wikipedia just isn't helping me determine whether or not my character is a pirate.

Slippery.

Slidey.

Safe-claim flexibility?

You know there's more to internet research than Wikipedia, right?

Look, I don't know that you needed to soft-claim pirate/not-pirate at all. But the manner in which you have claimed is definitely sketch.

[cicero]

Wikipedia just isn't helping me determine whether or not my character is a pirate.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say thats your Role PM's job, or even Stoofer's job. Not Wikipedia's. Granted, I don't know your role PM or what anyone else's says, but thats what makes sense to me.

yay for tag fixings

What's your point here, Ultima Avalon?

Also, You still owe me an answer to a question from post 86 or so with respect to why you voted Gorrad.

[cicero]

Wikipedia just isn't helping me determine whether or not my character is a pirate.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say thats your Role PM's job, or even Stoofer's job. Not Wikipedia's. Granted, I don't know your role PM or what anyone else's says, but thats what makes sense to me.

yay for tag fixings

What's your point here, Ultima Avalon?

Whether or not his character is a pirate shouldn't be open to interpretation, and, if there's dubt, Wikipedia shouldn't be the one to resolve it.

Also, You still owe me an answer to a question from post 86 or so with respect to why you voted Gorrad.

No one hopped on my bandwagon, so I hopped on the first one that had potential

Bold #1: That isnt explaining your implications. It is restating your point. What I'm asking is where does that assertion lead you with respect to scumhunting.

Bold #2: And so you didnt really think Gorrad had done anything scummy? Because I really didnt understand your logic in that post. So now you are admitting that you just jumped on that wagon for no good reason?

[cicero]

Bold #1: I'm not scumhunting based on roles, because, as it stands, we don't know who the scum are. I'm simply saying it shouldn't be that difficult for Mars to determine whether or not he is a pirate based on his role pm, regardless of his role PM's flavor.

Bold #2: Ya. So? Early Day 1 in bandwagon time

I don't agree with this at all. When I jump on bandwagons on day one, I find something prima facie scummy even if I change my mind later. I dont just tag along. You seemed to be suggesting there was a problem with Gorrad's thinking vis-a-vis mass claim. I still don't even understand what you meant in that post.

For everyone's refreshment, here's your post:

Unvote, Vote: Gorrad

Are you suggesting that mass-claiming is, in fact,

not

the pro-town thing to do?

Now normally mass-claiming is indeed NOT the pro-town thing to do. So I said "huh?" and asked what you meant. You dutifully ignored me.

So so far here's what I've seen from you so far:

1. In the random voting stage, you voted for yourself. That could be seen as scum being extra careful to avoid making connections. You also did it a few days after others.

2. You then jumped on Gorrad's wagon with no real cause that you are willing to explain.

3. An unexplained jump to the another possible opportune bandwagon without explanation, Guardian. Is it because you guys fought over Haiku? Not that I think a jump to Guardian makes no sense. That would be stupid. But it's a pattern of opportunism with you that I'd like to nip in the bud.

4. Evasive ignoring or non-answers to my questions.

I'd prefer you provide reasons for your actions from now on, if that's ok. At this point you've pinged my possible scumdar pretty clearly.

[cicero]

Now normally mass-claiming is indeed NOT the pro-town thing to do.

Hello Mr. Enemy of Pie!

I don't understand this at all.

[cicero]

Unvote
Vote: cicero

Reason #1

mass-claiming is indeed NOT the pro-town thing to do.

Reason #2

In the random voting stage, you voted for yourself. That could be seen as scum

IS THIS MORE TO YOUR LIKING, GOOD SIR???

I see Ultima being OMGUS and Flameaxe being obstructionist and swooping to someone's rescue again.

I still don't understand the mass claim accusation, frankly. There are lots of times to use a mass-claim in a game. Later. None of them are on day one.

So... shrug. No, ultima, you didnt make yourself look any better to me at all.

[cicero]

Unvote
Vote: cicero

Reason #1

mass-claiming is indeed NOT the pro-town thing to do.

Reason #2

In the random voting stage, you voted for yourself. That could be seen as scum

IS THIS MORE TO YOUR LIKING, GOOD SIR???

I see Ultima being OMGUS and Flameaxe being obstructionist and swooping to someone's rescue again.

I still don't understand the mass claim accusation, frankly. There are lots of times to use a mass-claim in a game. Later. None of them are on day one.

So... shrug. No, ultima, you didnt make yourself look any better to me at all.

I suggest you meta better, buddy.

Flameaxe, please stop being rude and just explain yourself.

[cicero]

The way this works is if I make a supposition on day one with someone I havent played with before, someone who has played with them can come in and correct the meta. If you think I'm going to go check metas BEFORE I post you are dreaming.

So you can respond flippantly or you can explain things. On day one, I look at people's play and if something needs to be noted I note it. It gives other people alerts that can be used throughout the game.

I'm not convinced UA is scum by any means. But I'm certainly not convinced he's town.

I also still don't remotely understand the objection to what I had to say about mass-claim. The central point, which you seem to be trying to derail, is me noting opportunistic bandwagoning without reason. Followed by avoidance of answering questions.

[cicero]

I have made no comment on his wagoning. All I saw was a day one random vote.

Because you are lazy: UA self votes (even self wagons) on day one. It's just a tradition.

Cool. Thanks.

Apologies on that tell, UA.

Can we go back to Enemy of Pie now?

[cicero]

Cool. Thanks Guardian. Appreciate the insights.

None of that changes my initial notice that UA's been jumping from wagon to wagon with no explanation and avoiding questions about it. And I add OMGUS to that as well now. Is this also his usual playstyle?

[cicero]

If I call childish and hostile posting childish and hostile do I get replaced?

[cicero]

No, you get replaced for taking the game too seriously.

Flame I'm not sitting here crying but you're being a pest. The only thing youve opened your mouth to do in this game is to poke me when I try to open new avenues of discussion. It's childish and hostile and brings an unnecessary shrillness to the game, so please stop.

Ultima, ignoring the cheeky form of your answer, I have to disagree. Mass-claiming is very often not pro-town. Are you now saying that your vote for Gorrad was based on your belief that believing a mass-claim could be anti-town is a scumtell or are you sticking with your "on day one I can bandwagon with impunity" position.

See the way I see it, those early bandwagons are good exactly for looking to see who hops on for bad reasons.

[cicero]

blah blah block #2: Both

Not a problem.

Blah Blah Block #3: Or who takes early Day 1 seriously

Townies.

[cicero]

Blah Blah Block #3: Or who takes early Day 1 seriously

Townies.

Fail. If townies took the entire game seriously, then the random stage wouldn't exist at all ever.

In fact, it could be argued that it is, in fact, scum, who try and take the entire game seriously, as they over-analyze and nit-pick over the very minor of things, in hopes to find scummy behavoir where it, in fact, doesn't exist.

Not at all. I take the random stage very seriously in every game. So does everyone else. The first accusation always comes out of it. So do you. It's why you have a self-vote tradition. You have a meta excuse for your choice. It's the same as random dice rolling.

Sorry, I hate day ones enough without letting someone's first three votes have "get out of jail free" cards attached to them. That just prolongs the day and lets scum get away with anything they like.

[cicero]

Flame I'm not sitting here crying but you're being a pest. The only thing youve opened your mouth to do in this game is to poke me when I try to open new avenues of discussion. It's childish and hostile and brings an unnecessary shrillness to the game, so please stop.

I'm sorry?

Also, did you miss my discussion with Guardian a few pages back? Yeah, way to completely lie. It's cool though.

That would mean the discussion that stemmed directly from you interjecting between me and TSQ and then Guardian asking you a direct question about your whereabouts and motivations. I didn't miss it. It just doesnt change the facts.

[cicero]

Well you mentioned me, did you NOT want me to interject? I believe I had every right.

You did. I just wasnt lying when I said what I said.

[cicero]

I also still don't remotely understand the objection to what I had to say about mass-claim.

Regardless of the time of day or the circumstances surrounding it, massclaims are pro-town. Period.

I very much disagree with this. I enjoy when the town has powerroles.

Also, while I must say Flameaxe is, as always, being very unhelpful, his posts make me laugh.

heh.

[cicero]

Also, I would argue that the point day one, as a pro town player is to get wagons and guage reactions. The way you do this is get pressure on other players and then see how they, and others, react to that pressure. I don't see anything I've done today that cant be explained under that framework of day 1 pro town behavior.

Again, this misses the point. I agree with this completely but if it's to have any meaning, you are looking for disingenuous play. Just jumping on any wagon that seems to have momentum is exactly the kind of tell one
looks for in those wagons.

[cicero]

Also, I would argue that the point day one, as a pro town player is to get wagons and guage reactions. The way you do this is get pressure on other players and then see how they, and others, react to that pressure. I don't see anything I've done today that cant be explained under that framework of day 1 pro town behavior.

Again, this misses the point. I agree with this completely but if it's to have any meaning, you are looking for disingenuous play. Just jumping on any wagon that seems to have momentum is exactly the kind of tell one
looks for in those wagons.

Not necessarily, I would say. First of all, there is a difference (especially early d1) in being on a wagon, and seeking a lynch. I would argue that the former is a tell, whereas the latter is meaningless d1. I don't think I've been actively seeking the lynch of either of these players, although I reserve the right to seek their lynch at a later time if they do other scummy things which warrant it.

I understand and this is my reaction. I just think it muddies the water. I appreciate pressure wagons. But I generally think the people on them should think the point giving rise to the wagon makes a bit of sense. So if I see you or UA or anyone just jumping on wagons, you are the people I'm going to assume are more likely to be scum. Not the poor sop who talked pirate, or even the guy that made the initial supposition to get discussion started. What flagged you to me initially for example, was when you hopped on declaring Iammars wagon "Excellent for a day one wagon" when, in my view, it was anything but.

In general, I like to ask people why they are voting for whoever they are voting for. And in my opinion, "it's day one. Kiss my ass." isnt a good answer.

In my opinion that kind of pressure wagon takes away the usefulness of day one that way because it devalues the patterns we can ascertain when we look back at day one from the vantage point of day four.

And since muddying the water is more a scum thing to want to do... You get the idea.

[cicero]

This line of complaint is completely unproductive.

Fritzler chose to bring back a good scumhunter/vig instead of a distracting player/possible cop. Ahether you agree or nay, it's a perfectly reasonable call. Yelling at him for it doesnt do anything but fill even more space on my screen with visions of a blue haired dude with a sword.

[cicero]

The correct answer on who to run up next is:

{drumroll}

Sir Tornado.

Vote: Sir Tornado

Hi!

[cicero]

Um... in the name of Mafia 69... Thanks?

[cicero]

Um... in the name of Mafia 69... Thanks?

That game is a special case cicero. It's ongoing so I can't talk about it right now. But I'll explain it to you in a PM when it's over.

Looking forward to it.

As you were.

[cicero]

Im considering changing me meta on day ones to refusing to speak as well. I like how there are no consequences but actual play threatens one with a wagon. Seems fair.

[cicero]

Im considering changing me meta on day ones to refusing to speak as well. I like how there are no consequences but actual play threatens one with a wagon. Seems fair.

I really, really like you.

Don't tell Flameaxe.

[cicero]

@Guardian:

I had weighed in as I wanted to and thought my positions were pretty clear. Butthe short version of all my thoughts (if they are so magically valuable) updated to now is:

Iammers wagon: hated it. Looks more inspired later though, given Iammers odd-claim. He also hasnt voted since he randomed me. I know because I keep going back and going, now why is THAT vote there? So maybe Guardian was on to something after all. I dont believe in the existence of a role in which you cant decide if it is or is not a pirate. But it seems just weird enough to be true.

Gorrad Wagon: Never bought it much but Claus's post was good.

Thesp-scum: I can see it because of Iammars-wagon.

Guardian scum: I can see it because of Iammars-wagon.

Thesp and Guardian: Feel the same to me in some ways. Could go either way on either of them. Lots of blah blah blah and bending over backwards to look oh so town. I was more suspicious of how Thesp ran with the Iammars wagon then how Guardian brought it up. But in both cases I'm not in a hurry to lynch the people that are doing the actual thinking in here while others run out the clock. So I'm not going to vote for either of these players today unless I see something egregious but

IGMEOY Both

. Consider it the price of the wagon.

Add to that:

TSQ Wagon: Would make sense. Not liking his play. Reasons already stated. Some agreement with Thok. I wouldnt put it past TSQ to N0 Dripping Goofball for a second. I dont care how dumb Fritzler thinks that is. It isn't. I may join this wagon. Watching.

Ultima wagon: Would make sense. Sneaking on wagons. His vote on Gorrad was based on the idea that mass-claims are always good for town. Nobody believes this. I don't believe that he believes this. So I believe he lied. And I believe that makes it more likely he is scum.

Sir Tornado: Snuck on to the Iammars wagon and shut up. Being given a meta pass at present. I really am considering becoming part of the problem and just lurking through day one's from now on.

Flameaxe: Came to the aid of two team asshat/scumchat/friends, when I pressed them. Possibly doesn't care who is and is not townie. More likely just letting his distaste for me color his play. No scumtells but nothing pro-town either. But what else is new?

Gorrad and Hasdqfas: Are what they say they are. The other possibility doesn't make sense. Too bad they are outed but shit happens. The outing of Hasdgfas was a misplay by Gorrad but contributory negligence by MBL. If your gambit counts on scum slipping up, be prepared for it to make town slip up too. Gorrad thought he was already dead and wanted to give the town a confirmed townie to help in scum-hunting, since Gorrad's death would have removed the "masonic" . Not the right move though. It should always have been Hasdgfas's prerogative to claim or not claim. His role wasn't Gorrad's to provide us.

Twomz: Coming in to just say "holy crap" is poor. I have a feeling you are town though because I don't think you'd be so cavalier as scum. But that's the definition of WIFOM there, so instead - Twomz, could you give us a rundown of your thoughts on people so far?

Other Lurkers: Already listed and prodded by other players and the mod. Need to chime in and play.

Side note for the mod: Fonz is V/LA at the moment as well.

If I think of more to say about people I'll say it. I've noted who I havent mentioned in this post and, generally, that means I dont have strong feelings about them. That has triggered me to go back and look at them harder. (Thok, for instance, feels pro-town to me and I'm on his side against TSQ for the moment, but need to re-read.)

Hope that helps.

[cicero]

Very good post, Cicero. I wholeheartedly agree with everything except the Guardian/Thesp argument- I really don't see much of a case on Guardian, care to elaborate on it?

I dont see much of a case against him either. It amounts to "Iammars said Yarr so he's scum? WTF?"

[cicero]

Ultima wagon: Would make sense. Sneaking on wagons. His vote on Gorrad was based on the idea that mass-claims are always good for town. Nobody believes this. I don't believe that he believes this. So I believe he lied. And I believe that makes it more likely he is scum.

Sir Tornado: Snuck on to the Iammars wagon and shut up. Being given a meta pass at present. I really am considering becoming part of the problem and just lurking through day one's from now on.

Flameaxe: Came to the aid of two team asshat/scumchat/friends, when I pressed them. Possibly doesn't care who is and is not townie. More likely just letting his distaste for me color his play. No scumtells but nothing pro-town either. But what else is new?

Maybe be simply adding fluff where there is none, but this kind of fluff worries me.

It isnt fluff. It's a summary of points I already made with respect to those players. And they are good points.

[cicero]

And they are good points.

now if they were good points i wouldnt have pointed them out as fluff, but as good points.

/Shrug

I think they are good.

I also think the nothing that you have contributed to the game up to now is bad.

[cicero]

cicero, can you please answer 590? I have a feeling you missed it.

You are correct. I did miss it. Thanks.

I really have difficulty understanding why Guardian is kind of skating by for doing much the same thing as Thesp, but then abandoning his position when it became clear that it was becoming unpopular. At least Thesp stuck to his guns in the face of the wagon against him, which is either a sign that he was acting in good faith or a pretty big gamble if he's scum.

The only answer I can give before a re-read is that you raise a good point. On my read I found Thesp scummier than Guardian BECAUSE he was pushing the Iammars wagon further and harder - at least it seemed so at one point. But you provide an interesting counterpoint. When I reread this weekend, I'll look at it from that perspective.

[cicero]

It isnt minis. It's thesp and guardian.

You are both banned from quoting each other. Paraphrasing for the win.

[cicero]

[quote="KaleiÐoscøpe"]Content is overrated. You should vote for the people you consider suspicious.[/quote]

unvote. Vote kaleidoscope.

Ok.

[cicero]

Hmm, I'm mulling this over in my head recently. All weekend actually.

What I am having trouble reconciling is that the logic Thok seems to be using - and lots of us seem to fall into - seems to imply that scum would be trying to railroad a townie with a bad case. Since we know that this is a game with more than one faction, AND there is a disincentive to attempt cross-kill, I don't understand why scum would be motivated to do that. Scum have two reasonable plays at this point, in my opinion:

1) actively scumhunt for other scum.
2) try to stay below radar while not making any enemies.

Of these I think #2 would be the more optimal play (hence why I like to poke in the dark corners and press people who jump on bandwagons and vote without reasons. Surfers.)

Anyway, that's why I have trouble seeing Guardian or Thesp as being disingenuous in their accusations even when I disagree with them. Which, again, doesn't mean one or the other or both aren't scum. It more means that I am inclined to believe that THEY believe whatever case they are making even if I think it is dumb.

Or maybe they are just scum who haven't thought shit through. But given their experience, I doubt it a bit.

What am I missing, Thok?

[cicero]

MGM - read my post just above yours. Nobody knows who's townie in this game.*

NOBODY.

So how is that a scumtell? He's referring to himself for god's sake.



*MrBuddy Lee exception applies. And even then only mostly.

[cicero]

I've been swapped with a lot of people, congratz on a first for Mgm though.

What you and your girl do in the privacy of your own lives is no business of mine.

[cicero]

You want to get rid of one of the most vocal proactive townies.

How could you possibly know he is a townie on day one? Sounds like a slip.

Unvote: Thesp

Vote: Guardian

how is that a scumtell? He's referring to himself for god's sake.

...

---

I find cicero's point about scum strategy interesting, and possibly accurate/applicable but:

1. It would mean Thesp is town, something I'm not sure I'm comfortable with
2. It boils down to WIFOM easily
3. Why are you thinking about scum strategy, cicero?

One thinks about scum strategy so day one isnt filled with people pushing bad cases based on generic scumtells that would indeed be scumtells in a single mafia mini but which aren't applicable here.

Here's a better question for Cicero: Cicero why say that out loud? Are you coaching the scum??

Answer: No. The scum have lots of time to chat amongs themselves and they know what the good strategies are. Clearly the town needs reminding of them from time to time. And sadly, I can only talk to them in the open thread.


More impotantly, my point doesn't point to either you or Thesp as town. What it does is question a specific line of thought as to why you might be scum. You and Thesp could both be scum. I've found that both of you have a tendency to bend over backwards to LOOK TOWNIE. You are both classic cases of players who could be exercising Strategy 1.

I mean, look at that last question, you asked. You know what I said makes sense but you want to make sure you question me because I said something that might defend you. That's in case I come up scum so people arent going OMG Guardian-Cicero!!! Now THAT is disingenuous play. But it's designed to make sure your ass doesnt get hauled down with my ass if I come up as scum of a different faction after I said something that might be seen aa a defense of you. And you could have a motive for doing that as both town or scum. Heck it's practically obligatory. But it is indeed disingenuous either way.

This is very different than when you are pursuing a case and someone says "he's railroading Iammars" and I say... well, he'd probably only do that if he thought Iammars was actually scum because if he succeeds and Iammars is town it looks bad and he has no incentive to do such a thing. I'm contradicting an approach, not playing mister protection on your loquacious ass.

Thok is an experienced player. So when he makes an argument like that, it COULD point to him wanting to sway the Thesp wagon onto a Guardian wagon. That in turn could point to exactly the Thesp-Thok connection you already mentioned. Hence why it deserves attention and is a more reliable scumtell than many of the more overt ones.

Please remember that there is absolutely nothing precluding you, Thok AND Thesp of all being scum, you know.

[cicero]

[quote="The Fonz"][quote="Twomz"]

Vote: KaleiÐoscøpe

for no apparent reason other than I always think he's scum for not saying why he votes and never ever posting any content that I can remember.[/quote]

I'm really not comfortable with wagonning someone for something you admit he 'always' does. I don't think Kscope is one of those players whose very existence is town-threatening, and I don't think two weeks to deadline is a reason to lynch just anybody.[/quote]

OK, Fonz and everyone. I want to take a second to address this. In one of my many games, which shall all remain nameless, I am currently at the end. I am in the interesting position of getting to choose who dies because I'm confirmed town. My choice will end the game. Three other players remain. One of them will be dead in the morning. Two of them really havent said shit the whole game. Nothing. And they made it to endgame. This means that I may have to choose between two blank teflon slates. OR between one very active player and one blank slate. Either way, I would be in a much better position if I had some actual play to review before I make my call. But I don't.

And that is why letting day one lurkers live is bad. There is never going to be a better time to swat them, I don't think. There will always be some super scummy player that takes the focus. Then the lurkers just keep on livin' until you're one of the last townies alive and you're swinging at the pinata with your blindfold on. I know you dont get as much info on day one but you trade it for more info at end-game.

So that's my take. What's your advice? When do we swat these corner dwellers? What is the appropriate time and manner for dealing with them?

Just curious.

[cicero]

cicero, I can sympathise as I've been in a similar position in the past - but there's no need to lynch the lurker

immediately

. The first few kills tend to thin them out a bit, and we get much more information from wagonning more active players than pursuing easy lurker lynches.

The time is never right, it seems. Yes... we will get more information now. But we might pay for it dearly later. And lots of info is upcoming anyway, with nightkills, investigations and what not. Which means from a town strategy viewpoint, after a robust day like this, if you can spot someone who is likely not going to become an active contributor and will therefore remain opaque, an excellent strategy would be to wagon and possibly lynch that person.

Ah well. That's my counterpoint to "lynch all lurkers" is dumb. Do with it what you will y'all. You know my feelings.

[cicero]

What am I missing, Thok?

Assuming you aren't partners with Guardian, and you honestly believe what you are saying, you're missing the fact that Guardian is Guardian and not Mafiabot X352. Given his style of play, he's never going to lurk and given his style of play he's always going to want to exert some control over town.

You're also assuming that scum focus on hunting scum during the day. Really they just want any lynch they can get. After all scum can use night to remove the opposing scum groups from the game.

1. Paragraph one: I don't have good meta on Guardian. You two can hash that out. I can't account for it. I know some reputational things about Guardian but not much.

2. Absolutely not: In this game there is a cross-kill impediment for scum. It isn't no cross-kill but it IS designed as a disincentive. My original post feels more like a refutation of this last post of your because you havent said anything new to refute what I said. You just reiterated your opinion of optimal scum play, which I believe I have demonstrated is incorrect.

I agree that dumb scum might not care who they lynch. Do you think Guardian and Thesp would be dumb scum or smart scum?

[cicero]

K. I looked at Ork mafia

Guardian is town in that game. What are you trying to tell me? How does his play differ as town and as scum? If at all. This is what I need to consider. Essentially, are his cases and reasoning demonstrably better when he is town? Is that the point?

[cicero]

The context was that cicero was wondering why any scum would behave the way you were doing; my point was that I'd expect you to be aggressive independent of your alignment, so that cicero's comment about scum wouldn't necessarily be applicable to you.

I can see Guardian scum being very aggressive. Please don't misrepresent me if you can help it.

Quote tag fixed - Stoofer

[cicero]

The context was that cicero was wondering why any scum would behave the way you were doing; my point was that I'd expect you to be aggressive independent of your alignment, so that cicero's comment about scum wouldn't necessarily be applicable to you.

I can see Guardian scum being very aggressive. Please don't misrepresent me if you can help it.

How is this possibly a misrepresentation? Your comment about seeing Guardian acting that way as scum was made after my comment about Guardian, and was a reaction to the comment I made about Guardian.

You are not reading closely or I'm not understanding how you use the term. Let me break it down into quick and dirty shorthand:

Your point - Guardian is scum because he is pushing a disingenuous case against Iammars.

My point - whether Guardian is scum or whether he is town I think he believes his case against Iammars.

It has nothing to do with how active or how aggressive he is. We can argue about whether Guardian-scum would aggressively push shit cases against townies. Maybe he would. (Guardian himself points out correctly that this falls prey to WIFOM.) But I am NOT saying "Thesp and Guardian post a lot. Therefore they must be town." or "Thesp and Guardian ask a lot of questions and push cases against other players, therefore they must be town."

My point should be clear on re-read.

[cicero]

Gotcha.

[cicero]

To clarify:
1. I don't believe lynching Kscope will give us any information beyond his alignment.
2. I don't believe lurking is a sign of scumhood. It is a sign of 'real life' and 'taking on too many games'.

You should address the argument that I made instead of the strawman called "only scum lurk" set out above.

Also a hat tip to Rosso Carne for the most hypocritical wagon vote I've ever seen. Rosso Carne, why are you voting KScope and why is he a better lynch than you?

[cicero]

That post had nothing to do with lurkers... try again.

[cicero]

I've said it before and I'll say it again: a strong Kscope wagon is almost always a sign that the town has given up and is taking the easy lynch. It doesn't even let us find scum on the wagon because almost everyone has given little to no reasoning beyond "he's lurking".

Heh. "Easy lynch." I'll take a money bet he doesn't get lynched.

I made the argument for lynching lurkers on day one already. Less information now (when we can afford it) in return for more information later (when we need it even more). It's a long-term strategic choice. Choose it or don't.

As for information we might gain.. did anyone else besides me notice Rocco Carne hop on the Kscope wagon? How could he justify such a thing? Wagon seems to have born possible fruit to me already.

[cicero]

I'm generally bad at telling when people are joking, and am of the opinion that joking has little place in mafia, because when you do something suspicious you can just go "oh, I was joking." :\

How do your haikus
Get an exception from this
I would like to know

[cicero]

signal is to noise as substantive content is to bullshit.

[cicero]

:good posting:

[cicero]

Unvote. Vote Rosso Carne

Seein' as how I'm the one who pointed out said hypocrisy, I shall join you for a bit, Mr. Twomz.

[cicero]

Thesp. You dont want to lynch skruffs. That is

bullshi-

malarkey.

It's close to deadline and you aren't making a case, you are playing poker instead. My guess is you don't want to lynch Skruffs at all. You want to give the illusion of activity in a safe area. You're worried about any of the other wagons you've pursued coming up as town and indicting you, so you want to become patron saint of a hopeless case.

That's what it looks like to me anyway from over in the cheap seats.

[cicero]

Entirely possibly. All depends on if I actually see a case. On my own or in agreement with you. But right now your press on Skruffs just made you look more like scum to me. knowwuti'msayin'.

[cicero]

Xtoxm - you should really take your vote off of Thok. With Stoofer's voting system that kind of single outlier vote will make us more likely to No-Lynch. You should unvote or join one of the larger wagons. Unless you want a No-Lynch for some reason?

Mod - are you sure that vote count is correct? Could you double check? It doesn't seem to match up with my counting. Could be me.

[cicero]

Ah ok. Votecount is fixed now. If people want to avoid No Lynch they should unvote or choose a major wagon. Any reason why people are cool with a no lynch? :S

[cicero]

I actually think we are in good shape with respect to this day and our scum choices IF we can pull our shit together. Of the top three wagons here are my thoughts.

1. Guardian - I agree with some of TSQ's thoughts. I don't have evidence to back it up though. I haven't played enough games with Guardian to know that he "always claims an information role". I find it interesting that eveyrone and their dog targetted MBL on N0. He must be a helluva player. Still lynching him, given his claim, seems a dangerous and unnecessary move.

2. Rosso Carne - the wagon I am on, gives us the least information. But he has played an astonishingly scummy day one lurk day. His Kaleidoscope vote was pure hypocrisy. When I outlined my thoughts on players he tried to trivialise it by calling it fluff, while at the same time giving nothing to the game at all. Since a wagon formed he hasnt responded either. Radio silence. He could probably say two words and his wagon would evaporate but he isn't. Could be quite comfortable with a no lynch happening.

3. Thesp - an active player who I've talked about already. Most recently,I've found his 11th hour Skruffs push without reasons to be, as I said, a highly scummy attempt to distance from whatever lynch finally occurs on the chance that it comes up town. Suggests some disingenuity in his belief in his own wagons. Should probably have claimed already given where we are.

IMHO, at this point no one should be thinking about anyone but these three choices and moving us to a lynch. Unless, again people think No Lynch is good. If they do they should at least have the courage to actually "Vote: No Lynch".

[cicero]

@Thesp - You have expressed some discomfort with Skruffs on a number of occasions and been very reticent to provide reasons. I feel that this is a conversation that has already been had. When I re-read I see some direct rebuttals to Skruffs, an early minor FOS for a reason I deem wholly illegitimate, then you say on a re-read "I find I'm uncomfortable with skruffs" and then you refuse to give reasons.

That isnt the main point though. The main point is you choosing to actually vote skruffs at that point, nearing deadline, while doing nothing to actually promote a wagon against him. I've already outlined my reaction to that and a possible motivation of yours. I'm happy to hear a better explanation, though.

[cicero]

1. I'm uncomfortable assuming we have only 'main' characters based on a handful of deaths.

In other words, you have a non-main person...?

Quit fishing.

oh hai!

Could you shift your vote to a more productive wagon?

[cicero]

lmao. Pwnd.

Vote Guardian

[cicero]

I can think of at least one reason why scum would know who else is scum though...

Beautiful house of cards element to this game.

[cicero]

I can think of at least one reason why scum would know who else is scum though...

Beautiful house of cards element to this game.

I may be being thick, but what's that?

Read the game rules. You're a sharp cookie. You'll figure it out.

[cicero]

1. You appear to know too much. A scum crosskill is one possible explanation for the lack of goblin kill, but it's certainly not the

only

explanation. Doctor protection or a roleblocker are equally plausible explanations, and in those scenarios Guardian would not know the reason that the goblins' target didn't die. For that matter, you're assuming that the goblins tried to kill me in the first place, which is not a given by any means.

Quote tag fixed -- Stoofer

equally

plausible?

Come now.

[cicero]

Random Thoughts:

- With apologies to MBL, suspecting Twomz as being anything other than he says he is doesn't make a lot of sense. I do wish Twomz had maybe pushed the lynch more subtly rather than claiming early, but at that point his protector was unknown and not a corpse, so I understand. Also, your scumdar seems a bit off this game so maybe go a little easy on the sabring, ya. You aren't an SK after all. At the same time, skruffs, they bear some responsibility. They were both playing suspiciously in different ways.

- I think Erg0 is not just caught scum but I think I've guessed what kind: a ninja. I look back on the Guardian stuff and the timing and manner of his claim and am coming down on the side that says Erg0 got caught by the crosskill rule. Everything else is Erg0 trying to stay alive. Which is fair. But I'm not buying it. Why a ninja though Cicero? Just a hunch but when I started to go back and re-read it was Erg0 who was first to notice that MBL's night kill was really two nightkills. One being goblin by the looks of things. The other one: ninja. "But Cicero! That doesn't prove anything!!! sputter, sputter!!" Yeah yeah. Cicero knows. It's just a guess. I also don't think it makes sense to wait for scum to do town's dirty work. I'm really confused by Gorrad's position here. If he wasnt already confirmed I'd be assuming he was scum, and I obviously wouldnt be the only one.

- Suspecting Skruffs make sense except that it doesnt. What do I mean? The main flag for me on Skruffs when he looked to be bending over backwards to defend Guardian in his 47th post. I didnt understand it when Skruffs did it. But the only reason to suspect Skruffs then really was if he was a goblin. Which he isnt... because Twomz says he isnt. Other than that his play is no more or less scummy than lots of others.

- Suspecting Thesp makes sense for his play as already stated by many people (a brilliant player playing unbriliantly)... but not because of this latest MGM theory. I re-read MGM. The idea that he was pushing hard on a Thesp lynch because he had inside cop information doesn't really gel with my reading of his posts. He voted Guardian and then Thesp and then, later for good reason, back to Guardian. It seems clear to me that he was more annoyed at wagoning lurkers and trying to provide counterweight with the top wagons. I see no signals of inside knowledge in his play. This is part two of me being surprised by Gorrad's stance.

- and oh yeah, I was on Kaleidoscope because he was a super lurker and I was busy trying to pressure the lurkers. Rosso Carne and Sir Tornado were of equal value to me. Now that Rosso Carne is Ooba he seems far less deserving of a length of rope.

At the moment I think Erg0 is the play and the rest is all distraction.

Vote Erg0

[cicero]

Claus, it's his D2 I was referring to. I see how you can infer it but it doesn't look remotely definitive to me. In fact, as I pointed out his initial D2 vote was on Guardian. I'm much more compelled by the other arguments against Thesp. Anyway, I think we need claims from Erg0 and Thesp. No more beating around the bush.

[cicero]

In fact, as I pointed out his initial D2 vote was on Guardian.

No, it was not. It was the "in other news" vote for Thesp. Then again, that was his second post D2, I thought it was the first.

My bad. I misread somehow. You're right. I take it back. For some reason I came away thinking his sequence was a vote for Guardian then one for Thesp then back to Guardian. So that part of my post above was just a big old waste of time.

This main point at least remains: we need to get claims from those two. Neither is a bad lynch although I still think Erg0 is the play because I still see Thesp as a top suspect while I see Erg0 as caught scum.

[cicero]

Wow. I forgot it was Twomz who claimed yesterday. Yeah, I believe that claim, just totally spaced.

Cicero: 1. Why not? The scum want him out of the picture as much, if not more than we do. It's good for all parties involved.
2. I'm not voting Thesp because of Mgm. Not in the slightest. I've been voting himf or most of the game, primarily because of his crappy bandwagons.

1. I shouldnt have to spell things like this all out. And while I'm sure that scum with half a brain would figure it all out (ask me about my "fallacy of mentally deficient scum" sometime) I'd really rather you just think this through more. Seriously. Suffice it to say this is not something you can remotely count on.

2. Fair enough. I think his bandwagons have been highly crappy as well. I havent played with him before but everyone else seems to think quite highly of his play, so I am forced to concede that there must be something rotten in the state of denmark here as well. I've also amended my position on the MGM thing thanks to Claus.

[cicero]

cicero: can you please answer my question in 1198.

Oh yeah, sure. I thought I you really slipped up in this post:

1. You appear to know too much.

A scum crosskill is one possible explanation for the lack of goblin kill, but it's certainly not the

only

explanation. Doctor protection or a roleblocker are equally plausible explanations, and in those scenarios Guardian would not know the reason that the goblins' target didn't die. For that matter, you're assuming that the goblins tried to kill me in the first place, which is not a given by any means.

You're accusing Ooba of having too much information about the fact that you're scum. While I personally thank you for this because maybe he does, for me at least, this hoists you on your own petard.

I should temper my thought that you you're definitely a ninja though:

Hooray, we've entered the "I dunno, let's just lynch Kscope" phase of the day!

cicero, I can sympathise as I've been in a similar position in the past - but there's no need to lynch the lurker

immediately

. The first few kills tend to thin them out a bit, and we get much more information from wagonning more active players than pursuing easy lurker lynches.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: a strong Kscope wagon is almost always a sign that the town has given up and is taking the easy lynch. It doesn't even let us find scum on the wagon because almost everyone has given little to no reasoning beyond "he's lurking".

I concede, ya might be a pirate.

Could this all be a big misunderstanding involving a roleblocker or a doc? sure. But I don't think so.

[cicero]

cicero: can you please answer my question in 1198.

Oh yeah, sure. I thought I you really slipped up in this post:

1. You appear to know too much.

A scum crosskill is one possible explanation for the lack of goblin kill, but it's certainly not the

only

explanation. Doctor protection or a roleblocker are equally plausible explanations, and in those scenarios Guardian would not know the reason that the goblins' target didn't die. For that matter, you're assuming that the goblins tried to kill me in the first place, which is not a given by any means.

You're accusing Ooba of having too much information about the fact that you're scum. While I personally thank you for this because maybe he does, for me at least, this hoists you on your own petard.

Um, no. I'm accusing Ooba of having too much information about what Guardian supposedly knew, and his (Guardian's) motivations for doing what he did. In context, I'm saying that if what Ooba claims is true then the only way he could be as sure as he appears is if he is also a goblin.

Yes.... exactly. Maybe I'm being stupid and, seriously, explain it to me because I have no interest in mislynching. Particularly you. You're a strong player and generally a pleasant one. But I saw this as a slip on your part and I'm still missing the distinction you're trying to make. It seems to me that the implication is that you are accusing Ooba of being Guardian's scumbuddy - a general OMGUS move - and the slip is that he has too much info about the situation. The situation being that Guardian's buddy(s) know that you are from a rival scum-group. I've read Ooba's post and yours a bunch of times and I think you posted without thinking and screwed up because you didn't see the implications. I'm sorry if that bugs you.

[cicero]

I see what you're saying now but even just a minute ago contradicts: What you just wrote:

I am not actually accusing him of being Guardian's buddy

but just before that:

I'm accusing Ooba of having too much information about what Guardian supposedly knew

I see what you're saying. And obviously, if you're scum you have to say what you have to say. But I'm having trouble reconciling this kind of thing. You look more like you're backpedaling now that you see the implications of the slip.

(people who want to see the quotes in context, they're right above in that last quote pyramid).

[cicero]

Well Thesp, I'm no great fan of your claim. So don't love me toooooo much.

I'll tell you what I dislike most about your claim: The guy is obscure. Way more obscure than any of the other claims. Kind of like the type of person you might pick if you wanted a safe claim that was not likely to be contradicted.

Maybe some of you are huge Anime/Japan geeks but for a guy like me at least that's way more obscure than any other character mentioned in this game. On the other hand, I can't think of the names of any Samurais off the top of my head and it makes sense that Stoofer might put one in.

I also find the existence of both a vig and a day vig interesting.

@Skruffs - give me time. This game isn't driving me insane like Mini 499 was. And as for the anger thing... back atcha, buddy. You were a large part of what was driving me insane in there. (Maybe we both just find each other easier to take in bigger games. )

Oh and fishing is when you hint at wanting people to claim. I didnt hint. I said it explicitly. Erg0 and Thesp should claim. Big difference.

[cicero]

I want to

fos

everyone who is trying to coerce thesp into dayvigging; especially with those that were anti-mbl dayvigging iammars earlier in the game. I think comparisons need to be made.

Weird.

I can sort of see your point about the comparison, if you had left it at that. Then I would just say - the situation seems distinguishable to me on a number of grounds, not least of which is the obvious difference between testing a made suspect claim after due consideration, on a player that most seem to feel is caught scum, vs., a hotheaded, pre-claim, no consultation apparent dayvigging leading various townies to exclaim in shock "WTF"?

Then you go on to just actually bold-faced FOS everyone with this opinion? An opinion which seems to me to be pretty damn sensible.

What's your exact problem with the course of action, just so I'm clear.

[cicero]

They are exploiting a role which would not incriminate them wether he is lying or not, or wether he hit scum or not.

There isn't any foresight in asking him to use it today, especially if it is a one shot deal.

I understand paragaph 2 but not paragraph 1. Sorry.

[cicero]

@Cicero- what do you think of Samruc, Rogueben, and Mars?

Samruc - too lurky. I'm glad you mentioned him. I had just started thinking some people were starting to coast. Stoofer shound consider following his own rules and replacing Samruc. He has 8 whole posts.

Rogueben - So far he's fine. His predecessor, theStatusQuo, I had opinions about which you can use the handy dandy drop down menu to find. They involve the Death of Dripping Goofball.

Iammars - At the moment I don't like how quiet he's gotten now that the heat is momentarily off him. I thought the wagon on him was suspect though and had way too much in the way of legs for a dumb reason: "Yarrrr". But I never liked his "might be a pirate and might not" claim.

I suppose I could go either way on all of them. None of them shout obv scum to me but I have a reason to be suspicious of each of them.

Helpful?

[cicero]

I think so, yes. Thanks.

/waits to be accused of being scumbuddies with Iammars, Rogueben and/or Samruc.

Doo di doo.

[cicero]

Keep on doing that. I'm going to wait for their responses before making any accusations. For now, THE LIST is still Erg0, Skruffs, and Thesp, not neccesarily in that order.

Thesp should target Erg0 and I

FOS

Skruffs for

FOSing

everyone who suggested it.

Since the chances of Samruc responding anytime soon are about 1 in 1,000,000 I think I'll settle in for a long winter's nap on that one. And Rogueben can't speak for Shea. So I guess you'll just have to pair me up with Iammars cuz I did what I could to derail the dumb Guardian and Thesp led Iammars wagon, I guess.

[cicero]

MBF no need to talk in the abstract. We have a particular situation here. Look at it. We have doubts about both of their claims. In order for it to go wrong, Town's best instincts have to be wrong twice. And ignoring it means letting Thesp bounce along from day to day untested while he waits for that PERFECT moment to substitute his judgement for the town's and kill. It's a power we don't need, used by a person we don't trust, against another person we don't trust.

From a risk reward perspective, this is a no brainer.

[cicero]

EDWOP: claims=alignments

[cicero]

MBF no need to talk in the abstract. We have a particular situation here. Look at it. We have doubts about both of their

claims.

alignments In order for it to go wrong, Town's best instincts have to be wrong twice. And ignoring it means letting Thesp bounce along from day to day untested while he waits for that PERFECT moment to substitute his judgement for the town's and kill. It's a power we don't need, used by a person we don't trust, against another person we don't trust.

From a risk reward perspective, this is a no brainer.

[cicero]

I predict Thesp will meander in and refuse to dayvig Erg0 despite there being an overwhelming town consensus that he do so.

[cicero]

Want to expand on that last sentence there chief?

[cicero]

I'm gonna start wondering about you, Mr Cicero-pants, if you wind up being right about that.

heh. who could predict anything different. The whole reason we want him to use his power so much is because we dont think he has it.

[cicero]

Vampires generally represent cults. I think he's a cult-immune townie.
That's all I'm saying now.

I think that's good thinking outside the box actually. But this game apparently has Pirates, Ninjas and Goblins. And 26 players. Do you think there's room for a vampire cult as well? I don't really. I don't see room for a cult in here.

(at first I was going to type! Ha! Good thinking but not for the reason you say! There's no evidence of vampires anywhere in this game!! He's definitely lying!!! Then I realised their probably WOULD be no such evidence, cuz, um... it's a cult)

[cicero]

Unvote

to detract from what Ultima just did there.

[cicero]

I dont want Erg0 hammered until Thesp comes and vigs him and I disagree intensely with Ultima.

[cicero]

@Thesp - yep. of course I doubt your ability. I hope it's true because then you become a town asset. You as a scumhunter is worth more than you as a day-vig in any event. It will give things you say credibility.

I looked at your responses to MBL and find them inconclusive.

Incidentally, you clearly inferred that this is a one-shot ability when you said "I'd prefer to hold on to my ability" and I think you and we are better off without it.

First, I don't like you having a veto power to bring one day to night over the other players wishes at a time of your own choosing. I don't think your individual wisdom exceeds the collective wisdom of the town, with apologies to Ultima.

Second since it is one shot and since Erg0 is obvscum you have an opportunity to divest yourself of this power and thereby become a vanilla townie. That will take a target off your head. And, to reiterate, I think your analytical skills are worth more than this particular power role.

Finally, I think our collective instincts about Erg0 are right. Your instincts may be wrong later and you would end up killing yourself on our behalf. Or alternatively your fear of being wrong will leave you holding a power that you don't want to use while at the same time it is a power that scum will want to divest you of because of its unpredictable nature. Thereby forcing you to sit under a sword of Damocles for the rest of the game.

Thesp: Vig Erg0 already

It's my best advice.

[cicero]

@Thesp - yep. of course I doubt your ability.

Why?

Why not?

Thesp: Vig Erg0 already

Why now?[/quote]

Why wait?

[cicero]

@Thesp - yep. of course I doubt your ability.

Why?

Why not?

I can think of a number of compelling reasons, but they're worthless comign from me.

Thesp, all this fencing just further erodes your credibility. There is nothing in what you said about MBL that made me go "Holy shit, he totally IS telling the truth". And if you'll recall the second part of the argument I made - which you have to admit is at least a little compelling (which may be why you chose to ignore it) is that if you are telling the truth you should still use your ability now.

[cicero]

Yeah Thesp I'm totally fencing. If you want to go back and dig out the quotes that prove you can do what you say you do I'll happily respond to them but I'm at work and dont have the time or the inclination to do your dirty work for you. Suffice it to say I read them and remain unconvinced. The heavens did not open up and flood me with the realisation of the foolishness of my ways.

Anyway, since reasoning with you makes you just do the little Thesp Dance I've watched since this game started I'm going to back this up the other way.

Vote Thesp

[cicero]

He's said he dies if he kills a townie. That kind of dayvig is pretty damn likely to be town, I would say. Also with this character (honourable samurai) think of the flavor reasons for why it would happen, Kison.

If he's a scum daykiller now he can't use his power on a townie without getting lynched anyway so it may as well be true. If we still think he might be scum than his claim is worthless and we should hang him anyway, which is what town was on its way to doing before he claimed.

When town has a suspect claim it does what it can to prove the claim. Generally by saying "prove it" like we did with Guardian. We can't always do that but no matter what the claim is we try to plumb the veracity.

This is no different.

But a few players are now saying lets let him do what he wants with this power until game end. This means: let's just now ignore previous suspicion of Thesp, the fact that it is an odd claim, with obscure flavor, and no really pro-town use (substitutes his judgement for the towns. Robs the town of a lynch opportunity and sends us directly to night, possibly with a second dead townie (him) as collateral damage), nod and carry on.

This seems to me to be a poor tactical choice for town when an excellent tactic is available.

[cicero]

Thesp: you keep asking that question so I'll answer it so if only not to be accused of avoiding it.

Guardian claimed a power that he could verify. He verified it too (sorta kinda lets all not get into it we know what happened blah blah blah). Turns out he was scum.

You did a thing that scum often do. Claim an ability with disincentives for testing it.
1) We'll go right to night
2) If I'm wrong I die too.

So you claimed an ability that you COULD demonstrate but really you dont WANT to demonstrate. and really only SCUM would ever really WANT you to demonstrate it and I think I'll just stay alive for a few more days (DELAY MY LYNCH) and maybe demonstrate it for the town at SOME UNSPECIFIED TIME IN THE FUTURE because its important that I don't LET MYSELF BE DIRECTED BY TOWN because town as we know is FULL OF SCUM.

This is scum claim 101, dude. Seen it before. Didn't impress me then. Doesn't impress me now.

(BTW - Editorial Sidenote: you wanna know whose fun to watch making claims like this? Tarhalindur. The shit that kid comes up with. "I am a cop and vig who can dayvig on alternate tuesdays and saturdays but only if there's a full moon and battlemage hasnt typed "lol" yet." Honestly)

Because of your MBL comments and this being a Stoofer game though, I have to accept the possibility that you are telling the truth. So I've also given you very good reasons why if you have the power you claim to have, now is the time to use it. I am not compelled by arguments that you should use such a power with discretion as I've said before.

[cicero]

Oh Iammars...

how is that remotely ambiguous as to whether it's a ninja or a pirate? It's clearly neither.

[cicero]

Thesp makes a good point, oh scumbuddy of Erg0.

You thought the game was split between ninjas and pirates when you were a Vampire Finder??? Huh?

Also, a cursory reading of the flavor at the beginning would disabuse all of the notion that the game was just made up of ninjas and pirates. Your vacillation on this point proceeded long past when this idea was clarified. At the time I thought that you were possibly waffling to give yourself safe claim flexibility. This doesnt much change my mind.

I agree, also. First, I see not much room for a cult, but anything is possible. I also think if there was a cult Buffy would be kind of an obv-choice for vampire protector.

[cicero]

Stoofer should replace him. He did the same thing in Food fight and just got replaced from that.

[cicero]

Vote for Thesp, please, rogueben. A vote for Thesp is a vote to kill Erg0 or find 100% confirmed scum.

[cicero]

I want all the scum groups to lose and I want town to win and a great way to go about having that happen would be for people to vote for Thesp.

[cicero]

The right plan is for everyone to vote Thesp until he agrees to use his power. That still hasnt changed, really. You're inverting the right plan, Gorrad. And it's a plan we JUST DID! We just drove Erg0 up into the neighborhood of L-2 and Thesp said no to using his power - despite me making what I think is a very good argument in favor of him using it. So your plan is really just "let's lynch Erg0" so you may as well just say that. Your last part about killing Skruffs is just a totally different "pet scum" plan and is unrelated to the Erg0 Thesp issue. It's a red herring.

I think in my last few posts I made a pretty convincing argument in favor of this plan. If you disagree it has to be based on the vampire stuff. And as far as I'm concerned, that's fair. If people believe that Erg0 is Buffy Summers, vanilla townie who is really bulletproof and that's why she didn't night-die even though somehow that anti-night dieing applied against goblins instead of vampires than that's fine.( I would like to talk to those people after the game I have these Enron stock certificates I think you should purchase. It's a good deal)

What is more likely by far is that Erg0 is, in fact, a vampire, and vampires form yet another scumgroup in the game - although that really seems to be getting crowded. But we don't know how many of each scumgroup there are. Maybe we're facing one goblin, one ninja, one vampire, one pirate and one giant man eating windmill. I don't know.

Or maybe Iammars is Erg0's scumbuddy. I dunno.

But I still think the best play is for Thesp to vig Erg0, and if he doesn't, for the town to lynch Thesp.

[cicero]

What is more likely by far is that Erg0 is, in fact, a vampire, and vampires form yet another scumgroup in the game - although that really seems to be getting crowded. But we don't know how many of each scumgroup there are. Maybe we're facing one goblin, one ninja, one vampire, one pirate and one giant man eating windmill. I don't know.

So the Vampire cult-member would claim a role that makes you suspect there are vampires in the game? Why would he do that? We're not going to get into that fun argument we had in Da Vinci again are we? I'm getting enough Deja Vu by replacing Jordan.

I think it's a godawful claim, but I don't think it hints at anything.

btb, I've read day 3, and I've read all of Erg0. I'm reading Thesp atm.

The reason would be if it was provided as a safeclaim by the moderator, I expect.

[cicero]

Did you read my post about why Thesp should use his power now even if he's town and telling the truth? I thought it was pretty compelling. No one's really rebutted it. Just dismissed it.

[cicero]

No. You should not kill Thesp tonight. His power is indicative of alignment for me as well.

Although if Erg0 ends up town and Thesp is still alive tomorrow then that's another matter entirely.

[cicero]

PS - kill RogueBen.

PS - don't direct the vig.

Isn't that what we've been doing with me all day?

IRONY OH SNAP

It's like rain on your wedding day.

[cicero]

I'm gonna go back to my "so crazy and obvious it's probably true" theory and suggest humbly the possibility that the last pirate is Rogueben. Without going back and digging up every quote, I do think that TSQ is ballsy enough to N0 kill Dripping Goofball after talking about it.

I also note that if you look at Skruff's talk there's a few glaring examples of possible distancing without attacking when he gives an FOS to TSQ and also spends time criticizing his play in a mini they were in together over some post restriction ploy.

Not definitive but worth considering.

[cicero]

I'm willing to believe Iammars claim cause

a) He claimed when he didn't have to
b) Vampire finder fits as a red herring role

I agree.

I'm wondering if we've

now

reached the moment where all good townies should mass claim. The docs are dead, it looks like. Of course the last person to suggest a mass claim was skruffs...

[cicero]

Sounds like a great way to give the most talented scum a free ride, Oobie.

[cicero]

Rogueben is active on the site but quiet in the game. let's remedy that.

Vote Rogueben

[cicero]

@Ooba - did you just invent that italicised flavor?

[cicero]

On Skruffs:

Cicero is not a likely ninja:

So Cicero you KNOW that scum get to talk to each other? HOW DO YOU KNOW THAT MISTER CICERO??

It doesn't strike me that scum would be that likely to pull that kinda crap on each other.

First, I'm pretty sure Skruffs was joking there... You cant draw any conclusions about my alignment from it one way or the other. It's weird to me you don't see that.

Second, Skruffs was a pirate not a ninja.

Coupled with that and the MGM is alive thing and I have to say you don't seem to be reading very carefully Mister Fonzarelli.

[cicero]

The case against you, RB, as far as I can see it, is that you appear to be putting very little thought into the game, and instead consistently going along with whatever a number of other people happen to be saying. You're doing just enough to not get prodded, without doing anything that might help the town find scum.

[cicero]

Ooba, I just read Fonz from his post 47 (using drop down menu) throughout the Thesp-Erg0 affair. I can't say I see what you seem to say you saw, see. So, still seein' such, son? Or was it a momentary thing? I get the whole /ignore Guardian thing for sure. But if you'll recall, Guardian had just opened his mouth and let fly a steaming pile of Wifeces in all directions. After that, Fonz pretty much went along with all the same moves that most of us did. He distinctly does not defend Erg0. He works to get him to claim and get him beheaded. So I'm not following. :S

[cicero]

Look - I'm not remotely interested in defending Fonzie. He's a good player and the only tell on the guy I have, I'm not sharing yet (sorry Fonzie) but he hasn't yet manifested. But what I'm having a bigger problem with is that the feeling you can't shake doesnt accord with the facts. I went back after my last post and read the whole context and your view of it doesn't accord with an honest reading of the game... in my humble opinion. Even before the feed fish post he presses Erg0. And the /ignore Guardian quote is a direct result of Guardian mentioning Fonz and saying

fonz -- you never really adequately explained how you found me out. but i dont have role based on you, just you're scummy as anything. maybe your group targeted me :\.

which was made alongside an accusation of Erg0 but also Thok (later shown to be Guardian protector) and subsequent to this post:

anyways, i tried to kill erg0 last night. he is 100% scum.

I also have role-based information that Thok is on an opposing scum faction. well, my buddy does. so he is another good lynch. 100% scum.


ooba is fairly clearly scum with Erg0//bussing from last two posts. Look at him, too.

tsq & Fonz (in the eyes of my and my buddy's scumdar from yesterday) are also likely scum. thesp maybe, but long shot.

Hm. There are some lynches for you. Please employ them. go goblins. And if not goblins, gl town. we have 2 members (me + one other) so plz try not to find him/her, we were pretty disadvantaged from the start and then I effed up.

we estimate the pirates and ninjas have... 4? maybe 3? We had advantage of flavor and PR, I bet they have numbers. definitely 3 scum groups though. maybe both other scum groups are pirates and ninjas is a red herring.

which accuses Thok, TSQ, Fonz, Thesp (longshot) and you, Ooba.

to which Fonz responds

My God, if there were any more WIFOM there, I'd swear I was actually in a wine bar.

Which, frankly, is just an obvious articulation of the truth.

So basically Guardian is spewing out accusations at random in an attempt to confuse the town and Fonz points it out with posts that demonstrate the eyerolling it deserves, and then proceeds to

continue

and

step-up

his pre-existing attacks on Erg0 and works to get the guy beheaded:

Simple way around that:

Thesp: vig or die

If a normal lynch majority posts that, I don't see how he has a choice. He vigs if he can.

and you have the temerity to call out, not for his lynch, not making a case for his scumminess, but rather for our vigilante, who has a history of having an itchy trigger finger, to VIG Fonz... based on that??

Why

shouldn't

we lynch you again, like we did once already? Are you reading the game at all? Do you care who dies or why? or is it all cool as long as you're alive at the end?

[cicero]

Ask a real question, get a real answer. I'm waiting.

[cicero]

Ask a real question, get a real answer. I'm waiting.

I'm asking because it's somewhat unclear to me as to whether or not you think it's a good idea to lynch ooba. If it should be obvious to me, can you clarify it anyway?

I thought it was a good idea to pressure Ooba on what he did and see where it led. If I was sure for sure he was scum I'd vote Ooba and say something like "guys, I think Ooba's the play." Final decision on voting Ooba would follow interrogation. Why are you interrupting my process?

/frustrated artist.

[cicero]

It's too late now. But it's a serious question: Why were you interrupting with such an odd question? What's your motivation in interrupting that flow?

Anyway, yes. Ooba needs a great deal more scrutiny. I thought his call for vigging like that based on no evidence was indicative of scum being curious about Fonz and wanting to see what was "under the hood" without using their nightkill to do it.

Actually it now occurs to me that he could also be Fonz's scumbuddy doing a feeble distancing because he gambled that no one would pay attention to it.( Not feeble as an insult, feeble in strength of effectiveness. quite a clever ploy actually, if it turns out true.)

Or he could just be a townie who needed someone to tell him to be more careful. Which I've now done.

While we're on it, Fonz

could

use some more scrutiny too. I think he's sailing through a bit under the radar. But I don't see anything I can hook him with yet. He seems town to me. He's saying the right things at the right times. But ultimately, that's hardly conclusive. I'd recommend a good dose of scrutiny and follow up questions if someone spots something but not a vigging in the night based on the accusation that he defended Erg0 when he, in fact, attacked Erg0.

Anyway, I still haven't moved my vote which is based on Rogueben being a safe play for today, for the moment. I still think there's a very good chance he's our last pirate.

[cicero]

Why is it low? Because the lynch failed?

[cicero]

Why is it low? Because the lynch failed?

This is a substantial part of the reason, yes. (This is also why I acknowledge it's not 100% likely he's town.)

I've considered that. I feel in games with pirates, a governor is likely for flavor reasons. But of course he could be town. But by no means do I think that mechanic is enough to make it highly unlikely that he's scum. If you look back at his wagon (which admittedly I havent done in a bit and dont have time to do at time of this writing so correct me if I'm wrong) I recall there being some who really thought it was an asinine wagon. They were visibly irritated by it. Then he got spared. So I agreed when someone opined that their might be a governor. Makes more sense than lynch immunity to me for some reason.

Naturally, one time lynch immunity doesnt clear anyone either, does it? We don't know what powers scum have. You could still be the Ninja daykiller after all. (Incidentally, I note that when you killed Erg0 you used the phrase "Kill" and not the phrase "Dayvig".)

So at the very least, I think it's a tactical error to cross Ooba off our list over that event.

Is there more?

[cicero]

Cicero: why do you think Rogueben isn't just scum, but pirate? And I agree we shouldn't forget Ooba, though with several scummy people around I think he wouldn't be a good lynch target for now.

I'm gonna go back to my "so crazy and obvious it's probably true" theory and suggest humbly the possibility that the last pirate is Rogueben. Without going back and digging up every quote, I do think that TSQ is ballsy enough to N0 kill Dripping Goofball after talking about it.

I also note that if you look at Skruff's talk there's a few glaring examples of possible distancing without attacking when he gives an FOS to TSQ and also spends time criticizing his play in a mini they were in together over some post restriction ploy.

Not definitive but worth considering.

[cicero]

Each time it is suggested it is met with a silence most deafening.

[cicero]

Kinda weird for things in this game to suddenly go 'chirp chirp chirp'...

[cicero]

Ok you silent little chirpers, rogueben is the play. Do eet. Do eet NOW!!!

[cicero]

As I've stated, I think Rogueben is our last pirate. If he's town, I'm wrong. I dont know what to do about that. Although I hear it's never happened before in the history of mafia.

If he's scum, I bet we eliminate a nightkill. Which is why I think he should be the play.

(Anyone who read the above and is getting ready to ask me why I think he's a pirate AGAIN gets swatted with a frozen trout)

I could also go with more Ooba votes for reasons already stated. Or one of the newfound silent types. But yeah. Pretty sure Rogueben is the guy who got Dripping Goofball killed on night zero. Back when he was named "The Status Quo." Cheeky Varmint.

[cicero]

What's kind of sad (for me, at least) is that I really have been reading, but I can't seem to find scum. Mike's townness is still useful info, but I don't really have much to go on, currently. And noone is making a case against anyone(apart from the lame "rogueben isn't contributing") either.

That wasn't my case on Rogueben and still isnt. People voting Rogueben for not contributing are ignoring both his meta and his limited internet access and should unvote. People who want to go back and read what I wrote are free to do so.

[cicero]

If you have a better one against someone, I'm all ears. It's the best I see at the moment. Other than that feel free to go at Ooba for the Fonz stuff, I guess.

[cicero]

Yeah. Once you reached this point you pretty much have to test it. It's also interesting that there's a second mason pair in the game. I thought that was unusual in games, but I suppose there's no rule against it.

It sucks when masons get outed before endgame but when you end up up near lynch that's what has to happen.

But it isnt up to Rogueben to out his partner, imho. It's up to his partner to claim if he wants to save Rogueben.

At least I think this is how these things are traditionally handled. Am I wrong?

[cicero]

Rogueben's partner should claim now.

[cicero]

I agree. And I would vote for him now except that I am already voting for him. There is no mason partner coming to the rescue here.

[cicero]

I've seen this work to good effect before:

I am not Rogueben's mason partner

Now you.

[cicero]

Poor Rogueben, runnin' out of alibis.

[cicero]

I think that's too many scum. Town is playing too good a game to be at LyLo. Something in our assumptions is wrong here.

[cicero]

Substantive post this weekend. Sorry, life is hectic at the moment.

Meantime, please don't just assume Thesp and Ooba as role cleared. Thanks.

[cicero]

I know what it has to do with. Say it out loud, CES.

[cicero]

and Fonz, you're gonna want to unvote.

[cicero]

CES: do you have some reason that you don't want to say out loud that which you just blatantly inferred?

[cicero]

I'm glad you see but I'd really like him to say so he can't say later that we misunderstood. The opportunity for the counterclaim needs to be there.

CES, there's no reason not to say it out loud unless you're trying to be slippery. Please let me eliminate you formally as a suspect.

[cicero]

I'd like Ooba to answer this question: Did your own ability cause your predecessor to survive that lynch or was it something outside your control?

As for Thesp: He did a Daykill not a Dayvig. He himself has admitted that his daykill does not confirm his alignment.

I am not saying these two players are scum. I am saying it is a mistake to assume they are confirmed town. I am reserving judgement. If I find them town it will be more based on their play.

[cicero]

Mass claiming: I was fairly down with it a while ago. Whenever Wherever. But so's you know, I deal with mass claims on a cop and doc basis. So who we still need to hide. Let's see:

The dead include:

Protectors

Xtoxm (replaced Sir Tornado) - Bruce Lee (Ninja Protector) - Lightsabered Night 2
Thok - Gandalf (Goblin Protector) - arm cleanly sliced off and skulled bashed in Night 3

Finders

DrippingGoofball - Jack Aubrey (Pirate Finder) - forced to walk the plank Night 1
Twomz - Bilbo Baggins (Goblin Finder) - filled full of rocks Night 4
Mgm - Sonny Chiba (Ninja Finder) - keelhauled Night 3


And all the pirates are dead (ahem. I called Rougeben. In your face CES)

So that means no cops and no docs need to remain hidden.

Therefore it makes absolutely no sense to

not

mass claim and the people who have opposed it today are fairly obviously scum.

Much love,

Cicero

[cicero]

Sure.

Vote:

a guy who doesnt seem to want to talk to us anymore

ultima avalon/b]

Thought on the game, UA?

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Vote: ultima avalon

FOS: CES

but I want more interaction from quiet players before doing more in that direction.

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Kison: Good point about Thesp and the cross-kill rule. That makes me feel better about Thesp as town. I know it had been stated before but I forgot it.

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Really? If I were scum, I'd be trying to use the lynch to kill opposing scum, while using the nightkill to kill Townies. I think they are that smart, because, surprise, thats exactly whats been going on.

Heya UA. I'm confused. You are down with a mass claim (as I have tended to be) but doesn't your point above speak to the issue CES is getting at? CES seems to be arguing that for us to have a chance, we need the scum to accidentally crosskill shoot each other. That gives us more days to lynch. If we massclaim, they won't cross-kill and will efficiently wipe us out. He does make some sense.

The other problem though I have though is what's the result of us mislynching?? That's the other side of it.

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Also, I've noticed you are still adamantly refusing to scumhunt. Who do you think are scum? Why?

Happy with my vote.

UA = The Play.
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@Primate - Good effort. Very good. And highly impenetrable. Why do it like that? To mask its flaws? I'm working my way through it in an effort to decide if you are scum, kison is scum, or both. But it may take a bit to digest alongside other commitments.

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EDWOP: Quote above is Thesp's

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End game math makes my the stupid part of my brain hurt. BTW, Has anyone else noticed that Fonz is really quite bright?

CES - yes. You misrepresented the scum kill rules. And have been opposing a mass lynch for as long as possible. I'm fairly sure you're one of the scum at this point. Fonz made a really good case for you being one of those goblins you want to hunt, yesterday. but anyway, we'll get to that in a minute.

Fonz is the offshoot of your idea that if we lynch a scum, we lose? assuming you really are the same kind of "we" I am which I, of course, do not.

From my seat, I have a four in five chance of lynching scum. But this win condition looks totally fucked up. If town kills any scum they lose, according to Fonz. Is town just stuck choosing which one of you scummy factions wins?!

We are really hoping they just murder each other with crosskills? And if one of them misses and kills a townie, THEY lose? Town loses and the other faction wins?

Again. My head hurts.

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Kinda funny since the pirate protector is me. Peter Pan.

Vote No Lynch

Feel free to check out me trying to bait CES into claiming it outright a few pages back if you want a good luck.

Stephen Maturin, my fucking ass.

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BTW

Night one I protected Thesp because of his reputation.

Night two and three I protected Mister Buddy Lee for obvious reasons (vigilante).

Night four I didnt protect him because by then I thought he was a goddamn doctor killing menace. I protected Mikeburnfire.

And on Night five I stopped protecting people for fairly obvious reasons.

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CES you suck at this. Are you ninja or goblin? At least Lawrencelot had the good sense to try to match up with Jack Aubrey.

"The Doctor" Pirate Protector? Doctor Who protects against Pirates now?

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I know. Peter Pan would never protect anyone from pirates.

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I'm sure he does.

Just not this point.

/pat

/pat

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You have me there. I'm clearly obvscum. Your powers of deduction are immeasurable. /sarcasm off.

But let's humour you - I'm the same age as Stoofer... so, um, ONE person who is not a little kiddy picked it, CES. In this case, Stoofer.

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Thok - Gandalf (Goblin Protector)
Bruce Lee (Ninja Protector)

See any doctors in there?
See any East India trading company antagonists?
No. You see characters who could actually protect someone from the bad guys.

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: you know that "Bah!" posts are not permitted in this game. Especially not ones that contain comment on the game.

I have thought seriously about modkilling someone on your team, but have decided to impose a lesser punishment.

Any further violations of this rule and I will modkill at random someone from the same team as the infringer.

- Mr Stoofer

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Sorry about the rule violation, all. It didnt affect the ultimate outcome. Just added a little flavor.

It was obvious that Stephen Maturin was the proper pirate protector role. The proper scum move - which no one did, was to claim it first. Or to claim exactly the same name as Lawrencelot did and me more emphatic.

I screwed that up first. Fonz and I spent a lot of time coming up with plausible safe claims and Fonz suggested Peter Pan for Pirate Protector. I thought that safe claim was brilliant. What happened though was that I was multitasking and impetuously responded quickly to Lawrencelot's claim when I saw an obscure name that I didnt recognise "Stephen Maturin" and assumed he had done what Fonz and I had done - go looking for things that fit but that were unlikely to be counterclaimed.

AFTER I had posted, I looked up Stephen Maturin and started to hit myself on the head, because I had forgotten about that character from Master and Commander, who is Jack Aubrey's physician and right hand man. It was clearly the real character.

Then CES took me to pieces pointing out something that hadnt occurred to me. That Peter Pan is... kinda gay.

So Fonz and I talked and we figured out that if everyone kept pretending to be town, town would win. This irked us since none of the four remaining scum had had a vote on them all game. So we decided to come on and propose the only way scum could win - cooperation to kill the town and then force a happily ever after. But even this was unlikely to work because of the prisoners dilemma. But whatever, we preferred a ninja win to a town win, all things considered since we were scum too and because no one had ever voted for either Ninja. And heck, Ooba had already been lynched.

But by the time I came online, you four had already voted No Lynch. By then I thought the outcome was pre-ordained and nothing could change it. Hence my bah post.

Really not 100% sorry I did it though because it made the ending a teensy bit more fun and interesting for everyone. But am still sorry for anything that irks Mister Stoofer, because he makes awesome games and I love his mod style.

So I apologise to you, Stoof, and big <3 <3 <3. I did forget there were no bah posts but irrespective of that I shouldn't have commented on the game and called the ninjas idiots. Especially since neither of us like people being that rude in games. So consider me pretty contrite on those grounds. 95% Sorry

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Yeah. This game rocked. I have to say I loved every minute of it. It was fast paced and more fun than any other game I've played on the site. It wasnt the most challenging mentally, I was kinda able to surf through compared to a lot of other games I've played. But in terms of sheer twist and turns fun... this one takes the absolute cake. Thanks Stoofer.

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I dont think Stoofer revealed to Fonz that he had lost the protection. Did he?

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Ah. You probably should have made that clear to Primate then.

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Because as he just told you, he probably was willing to deal with you but wanted you down to just one normal kill to kill you first.

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Yeah. Maybe. Makes sense.

Primate shoulda listened to the Adam Shiff voice from Law and Order in his head:
"Take da deal."

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I had TSQ nailed for that right away. Who else kills DGB night zero? :p

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I had TSQ nailed for that right away. Who else kills DGB night zero? :p

People who want to blame it on TSQ?

Not an optimal gambit.

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Fonz is a fantastic scumbuddy, by the way. Just thought I'd put that out there. Very smart and experienced. Sees all the angles. Doesn't play scummy. Great to work with.

(No disrespect to Guardian. I had more time to play with Fonz.)

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I had a safe claim of Don Quixote, Giant Hunter, that I really wanted to use. I even breadcrumbed it. Was considering on saying I was paranoid.

Stoof, the fast pace wasnt just about the deadlines. It was about the power roles. That's what made this game fun. All the power roles. I disagree that it needed more vanilla. It was a perfect game exactly as it was.

I'm not saying all games should be like this. But the whole idea of a super-powered game like this was really fun. I feel bad for Kison though. The one vanilla townie. lol.

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Sure there was something scum could claim - Stephen Maturin, Pirate Protector. We were just all too dumb to catch it.

We also could have changed the game just by killing CES instead of Kison when we did.

And even as it was, scum still coulda been smart enough to push a joint scum win via happily ever after.

I wouldnt have changed the game just to allow scum to safe claim at the end. Really the game went the way it did at the end through a series of sub-optimal player choices. That's the way the cookie crumbles.