Mini 533: Something wicked this way comes! Game over!

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

Well, I'm voting lowell because he's been lurking both day 1 and day 2. He still hasn't even tried to answer the questions people have asked of him. He's playing poorly, and to be honest, he seems veteran enough to be playing better if he wanted to. Plus I like even less the counterwagon around quickben which sprung up for not playing, which is not as bad as actively lurking (what lowell is doing). I could certainly buy that both zeek and lowell are scum, though. And I certainly agree that soupfly is less suspicious than zeek.

So, because lists are cool:
Lowell
zeek
OGML
geraintm
petunho
michael
quickben
skruffs
soupfly

There's a pretty sizeable gap between those first three and everyone else though.

[OhGodMyLife]

Skruffs, those posts gave me a lot to ponder, and I'll need some time to really digest it all. As for this:

Question: Why is Lowell being targetted for being lurky on day one.. on day two? Wouldn't it have been better to have looked at him day one instead of madly rushing to lynch anyone?

I'm not targeting him for lurking on day one at all. He first caught my attention when he made his post early day two summarizing what went on day one and, in my opinion, seriously misrepresenting a lot of what went on and spinning several people in a poor light that was not warranted. When he was confronted on this subject, he melted away and let the game proceed until it was sufficiently behind us before reappearing and ignoring all questions and comments that had been directed at him. This raised yet more eyebrows and brought on a second round of questions that he yet again ignored, instead making another summary with striking omissions this time, and firing off accusations rather than answering for his previous actions. Since this, he has made a few more posts, but still blatantly ignored multiple calls to say anything about the concerns and queries that have been raised.

@TSpN, what in particular makes me your third suspect? Especially considering the "sizable gap" between your top three and the rest of the pack.

[geraintm]

Gerain: "day 1 moved way too fast for my liking. it felt like we rushed it. didnt help DS made it so easy for people to pil eon" Interesting: Did you do anything to try and stop it before he was lynched? Were you on the wagon? Were you trying to convince others he should be lynched? No? Yes?

More bad points for Gerain: Directing the vig day one, then asking the town why Yvonne was targetted?

i was in on the vote for DS. my explanation at the time said i thought DS was playing so poorly i couldn't beleive him as town. If he was town, then his loss wasn't going to be felt too much.

If we have a vig you should kill DS on the first night. That way if he's the jester he loses and if he's mafia he's still dead.

i quoted here Zeeks post, because you seem to think that i was directing the vig, but it was Zeek. I brought this up later because i felt it was something scummy Zeek had done.

[MichelSableheart]

You've given me quite a bit to reply to, Skruffs. Writing this post will take a while.

There's no curiousity about DS in any of his posts. Michel actively discredits him, compares DS to others and finds him lacking, etc.

No curiousity about DS?! Take a look at post #71 and post #78, especially the last part of both posts. I'll quote them for you.

How likely is it that we have a jester? Because DS seems to be either that or scum trying for an 'I'm behaving so scummy I can't be scum' WIFOM. He has a completed newbie game and a completed day 1 under his belt, so he should be aware that his behaviour has been anti-town so far.

(Note: this is the post were I bring up the possibility of a jester)

Basically, I see absolutely no reason at all why a vanilla townie would behave the way you do. Unless you manage to come up with a very good explanation, I don't believe your claim. And if your claim isn't true, you can't be a pro-town player, because pro-town players shouldn't create confusion by lying.

In both posts, I am speculating on what DS reasoning for his behaviour could be. In post #78, I come to the conclusion that I can't think of a reasoning for a pro-town player to behave the way DS did. Therefore, I specifically ask for a good explanation. How is that 'no curiosity at all?'

Michel says "Oh yeah, there probably ISN'T A jester.... just an fyi". THen he goes on to explain why he's going to keep his vote on DS by saying that DS should have explained himself BEFORE he got to -1, and that's why, even though he KNOWS Zeek will hammer in his next post (because he said he would), that he's going to 'see' if DS has anything to say. (Incidentally, DS said he would explain at -1, and Zeek then crafted a situation where he would immediately try to keep DS from talking before he got to -1. This looks badly on Zeek.)

I have already admitted that my post #122 was horrible. I have also already explained why I ended up saying what I did. See the last paragraph of post #186. Here's the quote.

By using DS lynching as a trap for Zeek, you made it impossible for DS to explain himself before he was hammered. Zeek had stated he would hammer at L-1. DS stated that he would only explain at L-1. Given time, we could have convinced one of them to change their mind, allowing DS to give his explanation. Because of your vote, that time wasn't available.

I admit that the same accusation can be made towards me, because I posted after the L-1 but before the hammer. I should have unvoted to make sure DS gave his explanation. I didn't because I didn't take the time to think things through. It was 2 am for me, time to go to bed. I only noticed Soupfly's L-1 on a preview, so I quickly edited in a couple of lines to take that into account.

and then Michel goes into another scum tell that I saw scum do in Mafia 499: Being helpful to townies. I don't mean explaining things, I mean the sort of sympathetic "This is what you did wrong" type of stuff that I WOULD THINK Michel, if he was AWARE that DS was playing badly, would have (instead of VOTING HIM), made an effort to DEFEND ds the day before, instead of being on the wagon to lynch him. Michel is admitting to knowing that DS was a badly playing townie, aka The Easy Day One Lynch, and that looks badly on him. The thing is, you started apologizing to him Day One, before his role was even revealed, when you admitted that you didn't think that there was a jester in the game any more. Only, even saying that, you didn't remove your vote.

A couple of remarks here. First of all, I did point out that DS was playing badly if he was indeed a townie. See my post #65, post #71 and post #78. But unlike Zeek, DS had not given a good explanation of why he was behaving the way he did. On the contrary, despite many demands by several different players, he REFUSED to give such an explanation. He gave me no reason to believe that he was indeed a vanilla townie, as I explained in post #78 when I voted him.
Secondly, where do I say that I knew DS was a poorly playing townie? The only thing coming even close to that statement is my first remark in post #139, where I say that DS should have explained himself before being put at L-1. However, when I voted DS in post #78, I voted him because I could not imagine him being a vanilla townie like he claimed. So when I realized that Jester was unlikely in a mini normal, scum was the only option left available.

Michel, in the same post as you said: "A pro-town player should be suspicious of everyone, because he doesn't know who's scum. You, on the other hand, have only talked about the most popular target during both day 1 and day 2. That's not scumhunting, that's hoping for a lynch. ", you mentioend being suspicious of, basically, everyone who was suspicious of Zeek.

You yourself have expressed little to no suspicious of Zeek so far, that I have seen, this game. Why are you protective of him?
We know you aren't masons: He's a miller. And a group of miller masons? That's usually called "Mafia"... And we know you aren't the cop, right? Cuz.. the Cop is dead.
So you being suspicious of people for being suspicious of Zeek doesn't make sense, because, to be honest, by your own definition, YOU should at least be considering the possibility. Do I mean voting him? No. Voting is a very brutal way to get information otu of people, as I think everyone noticed day one.

I have been protective of Zeek, for a very simple reason: I believe he's speaking the truth with his miller claim, which makes him the most likely mislynch today. I did not want to see another mislynch be the result of poor play by the lynchee.
My reasons for believing Zeek are twofold.
There are his explanations for his actions. This is Zeek's first mini normal game. He has no other ongoing mini normal games. He has 2 completed newbies, and 1 completed mini theme: Cartman mafia, where he was a miller, and where there were no vanilla townies. I think that it is quite likely that someone with that experience, who receives the role of miller in a mini normal game, would come to the conclusion that it's likely that there are no vanilla townies. And I also think it's quite possible that someone with that experience would come up with the idea of a self-lynching jester. All he has said and done is, in my opinion, believable coming from a pro-town miller in his first mini normal with cartman mafia as experience. And I have no idea why Zeek scum would make the miller softclaim in post #85.
The other reason I have for believing Zeek is the feel of the bandwagon against him at the beginning of day 2. Especially the comments by geraintm, Sensfan and QuickBen in post #145, post #150 and post #160 felt like scum jumping on an easy bandwagon.

Besides my own defense, some other remarks.

DS is dead and town, as is Yvonne. Almonds = Poison (Cyanide), which is further confirmed by the aparent lack of trauma to her body.

Interesting observation. But why don't you speculate on what it could mean? Why bring it up if you don't think there's something of importance there?

Question: Why is Lowell being targetted for being lurky on day one.. on day two? Wouldn't it have been better to have looked at him day one instead of madly rushing to lynch anyone?

His unexplained votes looked worse when they were part of a lynching wagon. And the fact that his game summary was seriously of didn't help him either. Since then, he has completely ignored all questions directed at him. It would indeed have been better if there had been more questioning of other players during day 1, but that was extremely difficult with DS around.
Out of curiosity, what makes you think Lowell is town?

[ZeekLTK]

Reading Skruff's summary feels like I'm reading a bunch of jumbled thoughts all written in random order. Several times he asks a question and then answers it himself a few paragraphs later.

I guess he was probably typing it as he read, but I feel it's a poor summary.

Also, I love how he fails to mention what is, IMO, a vital part of Day 1 - where DS

admits

that he was playing scummy on purpose.

Instead, at one point he says he doesn't think DS has been scummy at all.

This is partially why I find TSPN suspicious, because he was trying to tell us DS "isn't that scummy", yet DS ADMITTED that he played scummy on PURPOSE - so it's odd that, even after the fact, you guys claim that he "wasn't that scummy".

Also, several of the quotes Skruffs used for me were out of context too.

And it's hard to even take him seriously when he makes comments like this:

Yvonne fearmongers by saying he could be a Jester. What is the point of saying that? I've never seen a Jester in a mini game. DS turned out to be a townie which looks a BITBetter for Yvonne, but she still went out of her way to discredit DS by saying he was 'intentionally' trying to get himself lynched. Have you guys heard of reverse psychology? Saying that someone is a jester and scum focuses everyone's attention on that person with the idea that they are scum. If Yvonne later decides he's probably NOT a Jester (but still scum) then she used a two-stage process to force a mislynch the first day

This is a whole paragraph dedicated to casting suspicion on the

dead cop

. Seriously...

All this proves is that DS was so suspicious that his play made our cop look "scummy" for going after him AND that even the cop bought into the jester role. If even our cop thought there may be a jester - then me, as a miller where my only previous experience as a miller was a game in which everyone had a role (there were no vanilla townies), then how can you attack me for thinking there was one too??

So I suggest you should go back and read the whole game without stopping to take notes and THEN come up with your summary. We already hashed out several of the points you are trying to bring up, for example your whole theory about how I was trying to "quicklynch" DS when in fact it was the opposite, I was hoping no one would put him on L-1 if they thought I would hammer. This backfired obviously, but it still doesn't change the intent I had.

[ZeekLTK]

Also still I don't understand that whole point about Yvonne.

How do you, at that point, already know DS is a townie but don't know that Yvonne is a cop?

Later on in your summary you say "oh and it looks like Yvonne was the cop"... yet the WHOLE TIME you somehow knew DS was town... however, DS and Yvonne's roles were revealed in back-to-back posts (the lynch scene and then the end of Night 1).

It seems like you are just picking and choosing information to present to us instead of trying to go through and give us a real recap.

[Lowell]

TSPN, I'm lazy. Do me a favor and tell me what you want me to answer, and I'll be happy to oblige. Your vote sitting on me looks like you just don't want to get involved in what is happening around you.

[OhGodMyLife]

Lowell, read the thread instead of trying to make other people do your work for you.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

@TSpN, what in particular makes me your third suspect? Especially considering the "sizable gap" between your top three and the rest of the pack.

I didn't really like post 225, you seemed a bit too eager to jump on geraintm after michael's post, by which I was not particularly sold. Its really just a vibe, and there's really a significant gap between lowell and zeek and you also.

TSPN, I'm lazy. Do me a favor and tell me what you want me to answer, and I'll be happy to oblige. Your vote sitting on me looks like you just don't want to get involved in what is happening around you.

Since you attributed a vote to me I didn't make, do you still think I'm scummy? Why/why not? What do you think of the zeek-soupfly back and forth? Other thoughts?

Here you go, lowell. As for "not wanting to get involved in what is happening around you," I don't really think michael or skruffs are scum, so I'm not going to switch my vote off of you. Sounds to me like you

expected

to be able to lurk through the day and people would forget about you.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that lowell is playing more anti-town than DS was. Which, of course, brings me to zeek:

This is partially why I find TSPN suspicious, because he was trying to tell us DS "isn't that scummy", yet DS ADMITTED that he played scummy on PURPOSE - so it's odd that, even after the fact, you guys claim that he "wasn't that scummy".

I used scummy in the "less likely to be scum" sense, while I think DS meant "more likely to draw votes." I said it then, and I'll say it now: only a foolish player would draw so much attention to himself Day 1. Being a fool is hardly the territory of scum alone. And maybe I'm engaging in a little "I told you so," but, damnit, I

did

tell you so. And you did your absurd self-lynching jester hammering to discourage hammering play, and I still find that very very strange.

[MichelSableheart]

Lowell: Already done. See the first sentence of post #249.

Lowell, any comments on my defense? Anything to say to the arguments I brought up against you in post #144?

By the way, I have quoted this exact same sentence in post #259 already!

And to make things even easier for you: The defense I'm talking about is found in post #240, and here's the link for post #144.

Other questions/remarks you have ignored include
- OGML's post #59,
- DS's post #62,
- OGML's post #155,
- TSpN's post #164 (QFT'ed by OGML in #165)
- TSpN's post #215,
- OGML's post #225,
-TSpN's post #242,
- OGML's post #243, and
- OGML's post #255.
These are just the posts were comments were made about/towards you that you did not acknowledge in any way. I won't take the time to distill the questions you missed from them, though.

And while you're at it, a bit more explanation of why you voted DS in post #92 wouldn't hurt, as requested by Zeek in post #94 and again in post #134.

[ZeekLTK]

And while you're at it, a bit more explanation of why you voted DS in post #92 wouldn't hurt, as requested by Zeek in post #94 and again in post #134.

I'm glad you posted that, because I looked back at my post and saw this right under it:

i feel that not explaining my suspicion at this point benefits the town more than explaining it. think a little bit about it and you understand why.

Soupfly has all kinds of votes in this game that he never explains.

For example, the whole Petunho vote a few pages back...

Sorry the absence. Checking the game's progress briefly, but there is no reason for me to change my vote.

of course not, you're scum. damn its so obvious i'm surprised i didn't see it earlier. don't worry, i'm not gonna get lynched today...and probably not even Zeek. That honor will belong to you.

unvote: Zeek
vote: Petunho

anybody else see it?

He never explains this vote... then he is gone for a while and his very next post is:

unvote: petunho
it was actually a pretty random vote. i knew i was leaving on vacation and wanted to stir something up aside from the Zeek/Soupfly debate. i felt that there was no point in debating just that incident when it could be that neither of us are scum. i reread petunho's posts just in case there was something there but i can't really see anything suspicious in his play.

So that's pretty suspicious...

-----

Then look at some of his other votes...

This is his first vote on DS:

sorry for being late. i'm not usually inactive but i've been on a business trip.

in any case:

vote: discipline_slayer for clearly being scum

This was VERY early, so the statement that he is "clearly" scum is odd.

-----

It seems like only half of the people in this game have been involved in real discussion so far, and that needs to change. Speak up everybody!

Ok!
unvote: slayer
vote: OhGodMyLife

When asked what this is about he says:

Soupfly, while I don't think what you're doing is a good indication of your alignment, in no way is it helpful. Give us something beyond just votes.

But IMHO you are scum so I think I am being quite helpful...maybe not to you though...

Here is another case of him labeling someone as scum for no particular reason.

-----

Then he sets me up for the hammer without even saying WHY he is changing his vote to DS (other than the obvious - he's scum and trying to get a townie [me] to hammer for him)

unvote: oh god my life

vote: discipline slayer --> what happens next will tell us alot!

this of course is followed up, immediately (before anyone else even posts) with the great:

@ZeekLTK: you hammer and he's town and...

-----

Then to start Day 2 he is of course trying to start the bandwagon against me. This is really the only vote he makes that he tries to defend, but after his bandwagon dies down and he starts to realize that he's not going to be able to convince the town to mislynch me he turns on Petunho (mentioned above).

Then when no one bandwagons on Petunho with him, he again casts a vote without any explanation:

He's playing exactly like a mafia would. He's not trying to catch scum, he's just trying to cover his tracks, stay out of sight/out of mind, and do just enough to push the town in the wrong direction.

i can get behind this argument

vote: QuickBen

This kind of confuses me, because I was pretty certain both are mafia. So this either means that QuickBen isn't mafia or that soupfly is trying to save himself by going after his buddy (if we lynch QuickBen and find out he is mafia, soupfly will look good for having his vote against him).

But either way, all soupfly has done all game is cast votes and then ask other people to explain them (especially the Petunho one). When they don't pan out (aka he can't get a bandwagon rolling against that person) he just switches and votes for someone else to try to get another bandwagon going.

I think I'm going to switch my vote back to soupfly. But just because he's voting for QuickBen doesn't mean QuickBen is off the hook.

unvote; vote soupfly

[QuickBen]

I love it when scum tell me I'm not off the hook.

[Lowell]

Okay thanks. Will do.

[soupfly]

But either way, all soupfly has done all game is cast votes and then ask other people to explain them (especially the Petunho one). When they don't pan out (aka he can't get a bandwagon rolling against that person) he just switches and votes for someone else to try to get another bandwagon going.

I think I'm going to switch my vote back to soupfly. But just because he's voting for QuickBen doesn't mean QuickBen is off the hook.

unvote; vote soupfly

you do know there's a difference between trying to lynch someone and trying to pressure them. being that i'm a townie i don't know who's scum and am casting suspicion in different areas. ogml, petunho and even quickben were attempts to put pressure on people. the only vote that i really believed in was the one on you and even that i wasn't too comfortable with due to you being a poor player. i honestly don't have a good feel at the moment for who is scum.

the only thing that i'm pretty sure of in this game is that MichelSableheart is a townie. his play has been very solid and balanced. i'll probably follow his lead.

so i'm going to

unvote: QuickBen

because now that i've admitted it was a pressure vote, there's no more pressure.

[MichelSableheart]

the only thing that i'm pretty sure of in this game is that MichelSableheart is a townie. his play has been very solid and balanced. i'll probably follow his lead.

Don't follow me blindly please. Not only do I make mistakes, but someone who doesn't use reasoning of his own becomes extremely difficult to read. And finally, there's the possibility that you're mafia trying to buddy up with a pro-town player there.

[geraintm]

you do know there's a difference between trying to lynch someone and trying to pressure them. being that i'm a townie i don't know who's scum and am casting suspicion in different areas. ogml, petunho and even quickben were attempts to put pressure on people. the only vote that i really believed in was the one on you and even that i wasn't too comfortable with due to you being a poor player. i honestly don't have a good feel at the moment for who is scum.

the only thing that i'm pretty sure of in this game is that MichelSableheart is a townie. his play has been very solid and balanced. i'll probably follow his lead.

so i'm going to

unvote: QuickBen

because now that i've admitted it was a pressure vote, there's no more pressure.

hate this post. i feel as a townie i should place my vote sparingly. putting on poorly thought out votes to place pressure doesn't do this, and all it does is confuse your voting patterns. the less votes placed in a game the better, easy to follow suspicous voting patters. shifting your votes around just allows mafia to hide easier.

need skruff to come back now though to answer all the questions he has generated

[Qman]

Petunho has been prodded

VOTE COUNT THE FIFTH OF DAY TWO!

ZeekLTK

- 2 (Quickben, Skruffs)

Lowell

- 3 (MichelSableHeart, TheSweatPantsNinja, OhGodMyLife)

OhGodMyLife

- 2 (Lowell, geraintim)

QuickBen

- 1 (Petunho)

soupfly

- 1 (ZeekLTK)

Not Voting

- 1 (Soupfly)

6 will lynch.

[Skruffs]

Sorry for the delay, I have a big post coming and can't do it on my cell phone.

[Lowell]

Here we go. As much as I can find. This will take a few posts. This is post 144.

Also some quotes from his game summary:
Lowell wrote:
69- OGML encourages DS to post his thoughts [looks a bit suspicious]
Why does it look suspicious? As Zeek's quicklynch proved, waiting till L-1 was a bad idea for DS.

Because at the time it looked like he was trying to pass the responsibility of thinking onto someone else. It fits the trend of OGML being around but just passing the ball every time it comes to him.

Lowell wrote:
106- sweatpantsninja votes Sensfan, for same reason as he votes Lowell
He voted you for an unexplained 3rd vote. He voted Sensfan for 2 factual errors. How is that the same reason?

I think what I was referring to was his voting myself and sensfan for not believing the jester thing. But who cares. Either way, he argues that a third vote is dangerous (it isn't) and uses that as a justification for voting me, which is itself opportunistic.

Lowell wrote:
113- sweatpantsninja declares DS unlikely to be jester [inconsistent with previous votes]
I don't see the inconsistency. He stated in earlier posts that he didn't believe DS to be either scum or jester. Neither of his two previous votes where made on the assumption that DS was a jester.

That's not how I read his defense of DS.

Lowell wrote:
118- geraintm votes DS [also no longer believes he's a jester]
When did geraintm believe DS was a jester?

I have no idea. Maybe it should read "also does not believe he's a jester", I can't remember.

Lowell wrote:
129- Sensfan chides DS for his play [looks like he already KNOWS DS is a townie]
Not surprisingly, since DS did a full claim including explanation in #128.

Maybe, but it seems strange to take a claim at its word before a person has OFFICIALLY been lynched. You never know what could happen w/ votes not counting, being missed, being formatted incorrectly, whatever. I've been in games where, even after they're lynched, scum claim they're town and chide the group for lynching them. I'm sure SensFan has too, so to go from "I feel good about this" (127) to "So you were town? boo" (129) seems a bit off.

I also dislike that Lowell's summary does not include Zeek's suspicion of a jester who has to hammer himself, which explains WHY Zeek hammered almost immediately.

I didn't take the jester thing seriously, as I find it unlikely to exist in a small, normalish game. So I dont' really care what qualifications people put on a role that doesn't exist.

[Lowell]

This is post 240. I'll put my comments in bold, since I had trouble formatting the last one.

A much better post then your last one with content, Lowell. Still, I have some questions.

First of all, why does your summary include all votes and unvotes, except for SensFan voting Zeek in post #171?

I probably just forgot. Also, I left out some votes that didn't run with the flow of the day, votes I didn't have any comment on.

Secondly, where does OGML follow me in regards to the Zeek/soupfly debate? Our opinions agreed, that's true, but OGML already voted soupfly in post #155. At that point in time, I had been arguing mainly that Zeek was playing poorly. As far as I can see, he was not following my advice there.

I read it the other way. To me it was, MSH posts an argument, then OGML says "ooh, good" and joins it. Twice.

Now, let's take a look at your reasons to FOS me.

(A) Sable's insistence that we all believe zeek, and his growing bond with zeek in the process. It looks like scum trying to cozy up to and protect a townie. Those who don't believe the zeek claim, or only maybe believe the zeek claim, are fully justified in their equivocations. Either Sable is just has a much broader understanding of the game, OR, he entered the debate from the position of someone inclined to believe zeek.

Zeek had indeed been playing badly. So had DS on day 1. On day 1, DS was mislynched because of it. On day 2, the bandwagon against Zeek was quickly moving forward rapidly, in much the same way as the bandwagon against DS, with QuickBen and SensFan jumping based on not very solid reasoning.

Early in day 2, I took the time to look closely at Zeek's miller claim. He mentioned another game were he had been miller. A game where there had been no vanilla's, but where the SK claimed vanilla and was caught by him. Looking at that game (Cartman mafia, mini theme 472) revealed that everything was exactly as he told it had been, making his explanations for his behaviour a lot more believable. It also explained his claim that he did not believe there were vanilla's completely, a claim that had completely baffled me because I could not think of any role that would make someone believe that. I also found it extremely unlikely that scum would make the no vanilla townies claim. If Zeek was scum, it would be simply too much risk for too little payoff. I was convinced Zeek was telling the truth.

Therefore, I also believed that the bandwagon on him was a bandwagon leading to a mislynch. However, the bandwagon was moving forward rapidly, in much the same way the wagon against DS had done. If I didn't act, it was quite likely that we would have another mislynch. It's not scum buddying up, it's town doing what he can to prevent a mislynch.

No, I don't think that's true. There are MANY people who either DO believe the miller claim, or are unsure enough to think that lynching zeek would be a bad idea. I think you're overestimating the chances of a quicklynch (D1 notwithstanding). To me it reads as you trying to take a "bold" position in defense of zeek because you know something that we do not. Your certainty is the issue, not your opinion.

Of course, I could be scum trying to gain a town player's trust. (Zeek, if you decide to trust me, please don't let the sole reason be that I argued in your favour.) However, wouldn't it be a much more logical play for me as scum to keep a bit more low profile and see if the bandwagon against Zeek does indeed reach that mislynch it seems to be heading to?

Again, I disagree. "Keeping a low profile" doesn't work as a means of surviving the game, at least not in one this size. Also, scum needs to earn people's trust... which is the whole point of buddying.

(B) Sable's increasing vocal attitude on D2. Much more than D1, he's driving conversation. On N1, we lost a cop, and the mafia have more control on the game.

Am I? Day 1 began with an argument between DS and me. Also, I was the one who originally brought up the possibility of DS being a jester. Not that that was such a great addition to the discussion, but I believe a was already relatively vocal during day 1.

Bringing up the idea of a jester is different than your play today. You have seemed bolder today than yesterday. Yes, it could just be that you're town feeling the urgency of lynching right, but I don't want to ignore the other possibility.

I guess you are seeing 2 things.
On day 1, the discussion focussed mainly on DS, where I agreed with most players, giving me a lot less to argue about. On day 2, in the discussion about Zeek and soupfly, there were more people I disagreed with, giving me more posts to reply to.
The other effect you are seeing is that of the holidays. Most people post mainly from work or school, causing their participation to drop during holidays. For me, it's the other way around. I post mainly from home, and during holidays, I spent most of my time behind the computer. I'm checking MS more often, have more time to read through the thread, and have more time to post.

Again, see above, that could all be true.

(C) His voting habits. He voted soupfly, then quickly unvoted. It could be, as he said, that he was satisfied with soupfly's answer. But it could also be that for all his bluster, he just didn't want to get into a long discussion about it. Since then, he's been voting me. And while I won't begrudge a person for voting me, he seems to spend more time on meta-issues, or "do we believe zeek" issues, than really expanding the case and making a strong argument.

I've already explained my voting and unvoting for soupfly. Note that, if I didn't want to get in a long discussion about it, I should not have made a long post on the topic such as post #186. Those usually tend to cause a bit of discussion.

No, it seemed like you wanted to get your opinion in play, and then get out.

[Petunho]

Received prod. I'll post tomorrow.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

i feel as a townie i should place my vote sparingly.

I disagree. But that's not terribly important. To more important things:

I don't think me and lowell are reading the same thread.

I think what I was referring to was his voting myself and sensfan for not believing the jester thing. But who cares. Either way, he argues that a third vote is dangerous (it isn't) and uses that as a justification for voting me, which is itself opportunistic.

False. I did not vote sensfan for not believing the jester thing. I voted sensfan for making a post riddled with errors. I voted you for the same reason (and for lurking). I didn't argue a third vote is dangerous. I don't even know what third vote you're talking about. As you said yourself, my vote was an OMGUS vote, and you were the only person voting for me at the time.

[Skruffs]

Okay... so what questions have I not answered.

The point of my post was to A) lay my suspicions down, publicly, B) get responses for things I felt are unanswered, and C) prove that I've read through the entire game.

Michelsableheart, You were not asking questions OF ds, your posts sounded more lik eyou were just trying to convince OTHER people that he was scum. That means yuo were not curious, in my eyes.

[MichelSableheart]

Sorry, last week has been pretty busy, and I've only got a couple of minutes to make this post. I'll respond properly during the weekend.

[geraintm]

The point of my post was to C) prove that I've read through the entire game.

yeah, i know it was a lot to read, but you got some things 100% wrong. when you have read people's corrections to what you wrote, has it changed your opinion at all?

i feel as a townie i should place my vote sparingly.

I disagree. But that's not terribly important.

minor ethical aside.
what do you think then? townies should be very active and switch their votes around a lot, picking up ne whunches for their suspiscions and dropping tem just as fast?