Open 19 - Nightless (Over?) before 430

[Guardian]

Guardian, how many people who you thought were town did you let die by voting someone else (who was invariably also town)

A couple. Relevance?

How many times did you say you priority in this game was to keep yourself alive?

I've said it was

a

priority a couple of times. Relevance?

When did it become a scum tell?

Since it seemed like it was your

only

priority.

Did you remember all the times you've used that as excuse for scummy actions before you tried to use it against me?

Yeah. Do you think using it as an excuse was valid, or not?

You say you reread thok to figure out he was town, but you were entirely sure he was scum up until the point I indicated that I was more in agreement with his case than yours.

That's not at all true.

Lies, again

. My second post of the day, before you posted any of that, indicated I thought you were odds on to be the last scum.

Like thok asked, why didn't you reread thok yesterday?

Apathy.

And since you were entirely sure he was scum yesterday, why did you hammer elias?

I've already addressed this, as I've asked you to do before, please read my posts.

Elias was going to go after me after you were lynced: you knew that. If you thought I was scum yesterday, why did you try to lynch my most vocal opponent?

Because I didn't think you were scum yesterday.

Answer: your priority was to lynch two people before getting lynched yourself. That's why you will vote anyone for any reason.

Answer: because he was going to be lynched yesterday and might have been scum, so I figured I might as well get on with it. As I've already addressed.

Please

read my posts.

And that's why you waited until after you hammered elias to try and make me look suspicious for posting a case against him.

When have I said your case on him was suspicious? Your

admitted

motivation for posting the case on him is what's suspicious.

Because if you defended elias before hand, you would have a harder time explaining haMmering him later.

I've defended elias all game -- until after Thok voted him and I started having interactions with him, and I decided it was time to hammer. I'm confused what you're going at here.

I hate cliffhangers, and I hate being. In lylo standoffs.

Why?

I like how you are trying to say I'm forcing thok to make a decision, when you forced both of us to make a decision

What the hell are you on about? You are trying to force Thok to make a QUICK decision. Thok can have whatever time he needs, within reason, as far as I'm concerned -- you were begging him to end the game last night!

by speed votng me in lylo. It makes sense, of course, why you would vote first, and post the reasoning later.

Two points: I posted the summary of my reasoning in the post where I voted, so you're off. Secondly, I didn't go into more detail, because if I was wrong that would be a complete waste of effort. You talk like I made some great scumtell when I voted you, that is simply untrue.



Thok, I hope you can see that Skruffs is grasping at straws at this point. He didn't bother to quote and respond to any of my counterpoints, because most of his initial arguments were quite week. He's decided to go on the offensive and respond minimally, making as many negative points as he can. More points doesn't = good ones.


I'd like to make two points at this juncture:

First, in elaboration: Skruffs, you never responded to the bit about how you predicted what BM would do, and that him doing it is a scumtell. You predicted that he would drop a case on John, since he relied on the John-Occult connection, and Occult was town. We deserve to know if you are aware of three things:

a)How many other players, who have now turned up town, did the exact same thing, since they also believed in an Occult-John connection.
b)That I called for John's (2nd only after IH's, to be fair) lynch in one of if not the first post I made during the game.
c)Blagho's first vote of the game, I believe, was John.

I want you to let us know if you were aware of these things. They all contribute to making your case bogus.

Second, Skruffs, I want you to consider this quote:

Having to be convinced to go along with someone in voting has been proven (to me) to be a scum tactic.

Guardian, you aren't scum

. So don't do that.
Not that you are doing it, because you posted reasons as to why you disagree, which is townish.

You accuse me of chaning drastically on Elias and Thok. So Skruffs, we deserve to know:

Aside from me voting you and proving Thok to be town, and your needing to lynch someone other than yourself today, what has changed that now you think I am surely scum instead of being sure that "you aren't scum", and on top of that giving me advice as if from townie to townie. What's changed Skruffs?

[Guardian]

Going back to school tomorrow, limited access..

[Thok]

Blah. Sat down and reread about 30 pages worth of stuff (from 18 to 48).

At Guardian, you keep bringing up that you were "right about John". Why should I consider that a plus for you, when Skruffs was, IMHO, more important in terms of actually getting john/YB lynched?

Also, you spent a lot of time defending your voting IH at deadlines and ignoring other things, on the theory that you found him to be your top suspect. Yet when you found me to be your top suspect, you chose to hammer VitR/Elias rather than continue to vote me. I'd like to hear your explanation for the difference in these behaviors.

[Guardian]

At Guardian, you keep bringing up that you were "right about John". Why should I consider that a plus for you, when Skruffs was, IMHO, more important in terms of actually getting john/YB lynched?

Consider it a plus for me and for Skruffs, then. Where do I keep bringing this up as a major point in my favor?

I'm really town. I realize that's one of few points in my favor at the moment, but also the only one that matters .

Also, you spent a lot of time defending your voting IH at deadlines and ignoring other things, on the theory that you found him to be your top suspect. Yet when you found me to be your top suspect, you chose to hammer VitR/Elias rather than continue to vote me. I'd like to hear your explanation for the difference in these behaviors.

Well, with VitaminR, he hadn't posted on site for well over a week, and we had 3 lynches to spare, I was dead-on to him yesterday at that point, and I thought people were making some sense that Tony showing up scum shouldn't have changed that, so I thought what the heck, and that voting him might end the game.

The next day, Elias made it pretty clear that he was unwilling to switch his vote, meaning that the *only* possible lynch that day was Elias. Again, two lynches to try, and ending the game was an incredibly lucrative prospect.

So, the reasons were specific to the two people who got lynched (VitaminR who I had thought suspicious and went AWOL, Elias who was the only viable lynch option) and that combined with my desire to end the game made me act and hammer those two.

If that is unclear or you want me to attempt more detail let me know.

[Skruffs]

I had a big weekend, I will post sometime today though! (Sorry about the delay)

[Skruffs]

I'd like to make two points at this juncture:

First, in elaboration: Skruffs, you never responded to the bit about how you predicted what BM would do, and that him doing it is a scumtell. You predicted that he would drop a case on John, since he relied on the John-Occult connection, and Occult was town. We deserve to know if you are aware of three things:

a)How many other players, who have now turned up town, did the exact same thing, since they also believed in an Occult-John connection.
b)That I called for John's (2nd only after IH's, to be fair) lynch in one of if not the first post I made during the game.
c)Blagho's first vote of the game, I believe, was John.

Hmm.
A) How many players turned up town that did the exact same thing? I don't know, BM - I never got around to rereading the game, like I should have, to find out. I do not remember if that lead was ever actually used. I remember saying it should be, but after John's lynch I was satisfied enough with myself not to go too crazy in investigating other players, until Oman/Setael's slip up regarding the double-standard regarding mea nd VitaminR. I can see now that the slip up may have been genuine, in order to get a mislynch on VitaminR, but that was the second time in the game I was very active. I never really thought that Aimee was a good lynch, I didn't really condone the lynch on IH all that much (Although for some reason he really hated me when I said that I would consider it), the Adel lynch was bizarre, mustafa's also, I think he got scape goated. So no - Were there a lot of town players who tried to avoid lynching John because Occult came up town? I don't remember there being Any.

B. You also said in your first post that you had been reading along with the game, and you were up until you replaced, sure that Battle Mage was scum. What is your point?

C. Distancing? It was Blahgo's only post, I think. If it was random, then it was random. If it was distancing, it was distancing. HE never endorsed himself or anything else - so why would you bring this up? IS this the "grasping at straws' I heard you talking about?

I want you to let us know if you were aware of these things. They all contribute to making your case bogus.

I don't see how. Can you explain why?

Second, Skruffs, I want you to consider this quote:

Having to be convinced to go along with someone in voting has been proven (to me) to be a scum tactic.

Guardian, you aren't scum

. So don't do that.
Not that you are doing it, because you posted reasons as to why you disagree, which is townish.

You accuse me of chaning drastically on Elias and Thok. So Skruffs, we deserve to know:

Aside from me voting you and proving Thok to be town, and your needing to lynch someone other than yourself today, what has changed that now you think I am surely scum instead of being sure that "you aren't scum", and on top of that giving me advice as if from townie to townie. What's changed Skruffs?

Well, actually, you deciding to vote me spontaneously and irresponsibly proved to me you weren't town. I've been kind of giving you 'second chances' the entire game, despite the blinders you self imposed on yoursef, despite you letting scum go free and watching people you believe are town get lynched while you pursue a false lead that turned out to eb a straw pony, which, jsut as I predicted, allowed you to sulk through the second half of hte game, only tossing in your vote to help lynch anyone and everyone who came with in range, almost ALWAYS without more than a day or so's worth of bias behind it.

IF, as you say, I am the one who "NEEDS" to lynch someone other than myself, then why are you the one who 's quickhammered, not once, but TWICE since yuor failed attempt?

If you are so worried about me 'needing' to lynch someone, why are you using "My intuition can't be wrong 100% of the time" as the first underlying 'basis' of your case on me?

I do not think that changign yoru mind about someone, AS FACTS ARISE, is not scummy at all. In fact, if YOU had been willing to change your mind, during the first five or six days of the game, (Which wouldn't have helped you, of course, being scum), you probably could have helped town a lot, instead of being a hinderance to the investigations of town.

You seem to resent me not whole heartedly endorsign you, even after you quick-voted me at LYLO, on a *hunch*. Am I really supposed to say "Hmm, Guardian has been acting Desperate, lately, but it's a LOT more likely to be Thok who's scum!"?

Is that what you are asking?

No. I believe that you intended to go after Thok, originally, if you had made it to final three. But, when you saw that Thok is 'flexible', in regards to who he thinks is scum, you decided it would be a LOT more easy to convince him to vote me, then it would be to get ME to vote HIM, considering I bucked the trend and didn't hammer you yesterday, when I Could have, for a while.

You didn't question Thok's vote onto Elias, did you? Even though he had previously been voting you, and you were 100% sure he was scum, you had no problem 'changing your mind' about Elias, and hammering him, before I even had time to check in and unvote him. Now, to go back to THOk, would be stupid - so you have to go to me.

So you really buried yourself, Guardian. IF, for some reason, you are town, you have handed Thok-scum the game. And for that, I can only shake my head. If you are, as I am 95% sure, the last remaining scum, you still screwed up, because unfortunately, everything you are throwing at me does not stick, when I look at who's throwing it. You are telling me that changing my opinion on someone is scummy. When you've been using NOT changing your opinion as a tool to avoid scum hunting half the game, and rapidly changing your opinion, sometimes on people you've said rpeviously that you were town, for the second half. No. I'm sorry.

[Guardian]

I'd like to make two points at this juncture:

First, in elaboration: Skruffs, you never responded to the bit about how you predicted what BM would do, and that him doing it is a scumtell. You predicted that he would drop a case on John, since he relied on the John-Occult connection, and Occult was town. We deserve to know if you are aware of three things:

a)How many other players, who have now turned up town, did the exact same thing, since they also believed in an Occult-John connection.
b)That I called for John's (2nd only after IH's, to be fair) lynch in one of if not the first post I made during the game.
c)Blagho's first vote of the game, I believe, was John.

Hmm.
A) How many players turned up town that did the exact same thing? I don't know, BM - I never got around to rereading the game, like I should have, to find out. I do not remember if that lead was ever actually used. I remember saying it should be, but after John's lynch I was satisfied enough with myself not to go too crazy in investigating other players, until Oman/Setael's slip up regarding the double-standard regarding mea nd VitaminR. I can see now that the slip up may have been genuine, in order to get a mislynch on VitaminR, but that was the second time in the game I was very active. I never really thought that Aimee was a good lynch, I didn't really condone the lynch on IH all that much (Although for some reason he really hated me when I said that I would consider it), the Adel lynch was bizarre, mustafa's also, I think he got scape goated. So no - Were there a lot of town players who tried to avoid lynching John because Occult came up town? I don't remember there being Any.

So what you're saying, in response to my question, is that you have no idea.

B. You also said in your first post that you had been reading along with the game, and you were up until you replaced, sure that Battle Mage was scum. What is your point?

I've never tried to use BM's play as a defense. I will however, try and use my own play as a defense -- and you saying that my role ignored John is largely negated by my calling for his blood.

C. Distancing? It was Blahgo's only post, I think. If it was random, then it was random. If it was distancing, it was distancing. HE never endorsed himself or anything else - so why would you bring this up? IS this the "grasping at straws' I heard you talking about?

So you think it is completely insignificant he put a known scum to three in his first post?

I want you to let us know if you were aware of these things. They all contribute to making your case bogus.

I don't see how. Can you explain why?

a) IF known townies did the same thing you are calling a scum tell, it is pretty bullshit. b) If I went after John, it is pretty irrelevant that the person I'm replacing didn't. c) And if blagho went after John, you're just making this up.

Second, Skruffs, I want you to consider this quote:

Having to be convinced to go along with someone in voting has been proven (to me) to be a scum tactic.

Guardian, you aren't scum

. So don't do that.
Not that you are doing it, because you posted reasons as to why you disagree, which is townish.

You accuse me of chaning drastically on Elias and Thok. So Skruffs, we deserve to know:

Aside from me voting you and proving Thok to be town, and your needing to lynch someone other than yourself today, what has changed that now you think I am surely scum instead of being sure that "you aren't scum", and on top of that giving me advice as if from townie to townie. What's changed Skruffs?

Well, actually, you deciding to vote me spontaneously and irresponsibly proved to me you weren't town.

ROFL. I neither acted spontaneously nor irresponsibly. My quick, well thought out, vote might just give Thok the chance to make the right decision and pull victory from the jaws of defeat here for the town. It is ludicrous to call my vote either of those things.

IF, as you say, I am the one who "NEEDS" to lynch someone other than myself, then why are you the one who 's quickhammered, not once, but TWICE since yuor failed attempt?

Read my posts, please. I've explained this numerous times.

If you are so worried about me 'needing' to lynch someone, why are you using "My intuition can't be wrong 100% of the time" as the first underlying 'basis' of your case on me?

lol, the ordering isn't relevant. I find it highly amusing you're trying to turn that into a relevant point.

I do not think that changign yoru mind about someone, AS FACTS ARISE, is not scummy at all. In fact, if YOU had been willing to change your mind, during the first five or six days of the game, (Which wouldn't have helped you, of course, being scum), you probably could have helped town a lot, instead of being a hinderance to the investigations of town.

Changing your mind eh? I'll come back to this.

You seem to resent me not whole heartedly endorsign you, even after you quick-voted me at LYLO, on a *hunch*. Am I really supposed to say "Hmm, Guardian has been acting Desperate, lately, but it's a LOT more likely to be Thok who's scum!"?

o.O I resent you not endorsing me? wtf? I know you're scum, I don't care what you say you think. I find it very scummy how you keep talking how Thok could maybe be scum, as if to try and get me to unvote or some shit.

Is that what you are asking?No. I believe that you intended to go after Thok, originally, if you had made it to final three. But, when you saw that Thok is 'flexible', in regards to who he thinks is scum, you decided it would be a LOT more easy to convince him to vote me, then it would be to get ME to vote HIM, considering I bucked the trend and didn't hammer you yesterday, when I Could have, for a while.[/quote]ROFL. Thok, more flexible? Read

his

posts please. One of his lasts posts before I voted you was him asking you how you could possibly think that I wasn't scum. Me voting THok because he was flexible? Wow.

You didn't question Thok's vote onto Elias, did you? Even though he had previously been voting you, and you were 100% sure he was scum, you had no problem 'changing your mind' about Elias, and hammering him, before I even had time to check in and unvote him. Now, to go back to THOk, would be stupid - so you have to go to me.

First, I did question his vote, I thought his sudden metagaming was suspicious. And I've explained why I hammered Elias. Read my posts.

So you really buried yourself, Guardian. IF, for some reason, you are town, you have handed Thok-scum the game. And for that, I can only shake my head. If you are, as I am 95% sure, the last remaining scum, you still screwed up, because unfortunately, everything you are throwing at me does not stick, when I look at who's throwing it. You are telling me that changing my opinion on someone is scummy. When you've been using NOT changing your opinion as a tool to avoid scum hunting half the game, and rapidly changing your opinion, sometimes on people you've said rpeviously that you were town, for the second half. No. I'm sorry.

*********************************

Skruffs, the thing is, your changing your opinion on me was completely and totally because Thok was gearing up to lynch me.

Skruff's stance all game:

BM's resonated with mine, and I think that means he did an honest reread

If you weren't BM's replacement, i'd be more suspicious of you.

I'm only thinking you are town because of BATTLE MAGE'S play.

I've been defending Guardian most of hte game because I agreed with BM's PBPA

Contrast Skruff's play all game with this:

I think I can meta BattleMage (Guardian's replacement) enough to be pretty comfortable with lynching him.

Thok, you can only conclude that

Skruffs started warming to the idea of lynching me because you were

-- and that his change in stance is unfettered bullshit. His reason for the change? He hadn't completely read the game. If he hadn't completely read the game, why base his entire stance towards me on something he hadn't read? Why? Because he is lying.

He needed a reason to change his opinion towards me to get a lynch of me with you, Thok, and made up a complete and baldfaced lie to do so

.

My play I'm sure has a lot of faults. I get what you are saying about the difference in me hammering Vit and Elias, and not moving from IH earlier in the game -- but my views and reasons are internally consistent, and I had good reasons for what I did, which I explained.

Skruff's view is NOT internally consistent -- he is just lying to try and get your support. I hope you can see that.

[Thok]

I'm at the point where I'm ready to make a vote.

vote Guardian

[Guardian]

well done, thok.

ffs thank god this game is over.

i hated this game in so many ways, not the least of which was Tony, who planned to place the lynching vote a few days ago, not being able to do so since he was coin flipped off out of the game at like 8 in the morning :\. sorry simenon, I know this game sucked to mod and I feel for you there, but I have to complain about that one :\.


after playing scum in nightless, it really made me think about deadline rules, because they area really favored towards town. every scum besides me that got lynched was a deadline lynch. almost all the townies were "real" lynches.

I find it hard to believe I made it to endgame, having to hammer two people I obviously supported as town.

again, thank god this game is over.

[Guardian]

Also, I have to say that besides Tony, I hated my scum partners with a passion. Romanus, if you're out there, wtf?? We missed so many easy lynches because you felt like you needed to bus me. Gaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah. OVER.

[Simenon]

Vote Count

Guardian (2)- Skruffs, Thok

Guardian, mafia, was lynched day ten.

[Simenon]

Game Over. Town Win!

Will be updated for end-of-game status, probably when the site stops being buggy.

[Simenon]

I want to apologize for every mod screwup I made, except the tony lynch (only mentioning it because I have ambiguous feelings).

And a final word to any replacement who wasn't replaced: in four months, if you need a replacement, contact me and I'll be happy to fill the spot.

[Skruffs]

Yay.
^.^
Thok is teh smart.
And yes, Guardian, I actually did develop a meta against BM. WHen BM makes sense (To me) he is scum. When I first started defending him, in this game - and you, simply because of BM's play, it was because I sympathized with BM's thought processes. Towards the end oft hegame, with other games with BM as town and as scum in it under my belt, I began to realize that I was flawed in that assumption.

Sorry, VitaminR. You were unjustly persecuted.

[Skruffs]

Mod: What screwups did you make?

[Simenon]

Some of the town was very, very good in this game. Skruffs, VitaminR, and Thok all catched at least one scum early in the game (Thok caught two in his opening post, VitR caught one in the confirm stage). On actual voting, you didn't do so well though.

[Guardian]

Yeah, town was quite good. I'm really proud I got to lylo and Thok had to even think for a day or two .

[Skruffs]

Oh yeah and by the way...

To dream the impossible dream
To fight the unbeatable foe
To bear with unbearable sorrow
To run where the brave dare not go

To right the unrightable wrong
To love pure and chaste from afar
To try when your arms are too weary
To reach the unreachable star

This is my quest
To follow that star
No matter how hopeless
No matter how far

I'm hear to replace after NAR, and LIVE THROUGH IT D: D: D:

<3 Skruffs

I... HAVE... DONE IT!!

[Thok]

Yeah, town was quite good. I'm really proud I got to lylo and Thok had to even think for a day or two .

To be fair, I was quite good. Out of all of my votes, 2 were for town (the mustafa vote and the late Elias vote), and every single other one was on scum. Elias was the only town I was ever voting for at deadline.

As for the delay in lynch or lose, it was more of a "me taking my time to make sure I wasn't missing anything"; when I was thinking about the game during that time period for the vast majority (perhaps even all) of the time I was planning to lynch Guardian. I wanted to hear a bit of chit-chat though. (There were also external factors that made me want to delay my decision; I got stuck doing some complicated mojo during those couple of days to make sure I'm being paid this semester.)

As for scum, I think it's clear that Guardian played the best, followed by Setael. There were a lot of little scum mistakes, IMHO (see like all of the stuff I pointed out in my various posts) but Guardian did a good job getting people to think he was scumhunting.

IMHO, Romanus and Tony needed to bus much less. Possibly Guardian and Setael needed to bus a little more once they were forced into that position.

Also,

FOS VitaminR's gut

[Skruffs]

I wonder how many of the original players are even still on the site...

[Simenon]

I unfortunately didn't save the PMs Guardian sent me, but he was genius in this game; I've rarely seen a scum that was actually able to carry out plots that he had planned. Everything from the bus "slip" to the final posts of day nine were executed brilliantly.

[Guardian]

Thanks guys.

Yeah, Thok, you were great -- when you replaced in, I remember thinking (and possibly PMing Simenon) that I now projected a loss, not a win. With that role not only not being lynch bait but also being filled by your able shoes... . Near the end of the game I really upped my efforts of trying to invent random cases to get you lynched because I didn't think that if you survived the game it would end in a scum win.

Later in the game, I made quite a few slips that were obviously written from a scum perspective -- I don't remember which posts though. If someone were to go through with a fine tooth comb, I'm sure they'd be there -- but who would want to? o.O

IH, I'm so sorry, lol.

BTW: My frustration with the site and mafia and whatnot were not faked -- just convenient. I might leave mafiascum for a bit now, that this game is over.

[Skruffs]

It didin't really make sense that you were so 'invested' in this game (As town) considering how many 'mistakes' you were making, too.

[Adel]

Oh great. I thought MoS was scum when I was reading the game. Damnit.

vote:Guardian

I'm looking for three to join me for a second accurate lynch of scum in this game. TonyMoonshine could be wishy-washy here, so I may need four. Any volunteers?

The only vote I placed in this game was on scum! Yay me!

I know I really didn't do anything to help the town win, but I followed the game a little and wanted to throw my two cents in

[Simenon]

And a final word to any replacement who wasn't replaced: in four months, if you need a replacement, contact me and I'll be happy to fill the spot.