Open 674: Duck Duck Goose [Game Over]

[outoforder]

Okay Rels. Let me ask you this:

How strong would you say my mafia play is?
Let's say it's a scale from 0 -100.

75.

ok, what does that conclude to?
like good play or bad play or what?

100 is best scum player ever (bugs) and 0 is marv

so you're saying i made a terrible scumplay here while being at 75?
How?

Well as said above you didn't make a terrible play if you're scum. With 2 mislynches left and lots of players scumreading you you made the WIFOM play.

And why am i scum?

[outoforder]

sleepy time

[Rels]

Okay Rels. Let me ask you this:

How strong would you say my mafia play is?
Let's say it's a scale from 0 -100.

75.

ok, what does that conclude to?
like good play or bad play or what?

100 is best scum player ever (bugs) and 0 is marv

so you're saying i made a terrible scumplay here while being at 75?
How?

Well as said above you didn't make a terrible play if you're scum. With 2 mislynches left and lots of players scumreading you you made the WIFOM play.

And why am i scum?

lol this is circular
You're not scum only because of the NK. You were scum for other reasons, and because of that, because you were super scummy, the Kop kill makes sense coming from you. Not hte other way around.

[BlackVoid]

Heading off to bed. It's 5AM my time. Hopefully Momo sees the new pages, gets discouraged and replaces out and someone good replaces in.

Quick question before I go, @Rels, why does it take you so long after daystart to start posting?

[Rels]

Heading off to bed. It's 5AM my time. Hopefully Momo sees the new pages, gets discouraged and replaces out and someone good replaces in.

Quick question before I go, @Rels, why does it take you so long after daystart to start posting?

lol I dunno p: I don't have the same motivation at start of the day. Maybe because the nights are silent are pretty long.
It also depends of IRL, for example yesterday I had tons of work to do during the day and I played Zelda the whole evening.

[Rels]

496 @Rels...I've never seen someone not able to get replaced. it could take a few days but I do not see the mod doing anything to that slot.

Speaking of the mod...he hasn't logged in since Monday so he may have already got some offers to replace Fred.

And a votecount would be nice mod...

498 @Rels...when I read a game and see posts that have me nodding in agreement or feel as though they are like minded to what I am thinking I typically assign a town read to that person. I have seen more posts like that from KidAdm than I haven't. My two catch up walls should point to several Kid posts that I got a good feel from.

As the game progresses and we get flips...and more content is provided my reads are of course subject to change. As an example...I like Kop for the same reasons as I do Kid. But I think your post /case towards Kop has some good observations. So while I would not be interested in a Kop lynch atm over the players I find more suspect...I would say you have tarnished my read on him slightly. Also...the fact that two of my townreads are voting him (Kop) is annoying.

As for the players I do suspect...it is a tossup between the three of them.

I haven't like Aubrey for much of this game because of his lazy perch on me. When I am town, players who are coming at me are naturally going to warrant my attention (OMGUS bedamned). And while I can respect suspicions towards me if I think they are genuine, Aubrey however has been parked on me the entire game for extremely weak (and misplaced) reasons. I also think there is a good chance that at least one scum is a more active player who will try to push the game to meet their agenda vice sitting back and hoping things work out their way. Aubrey fits this line of thought. And the fact that he is generally being town read afaict makes no difference, even in his own opinion. That said...I do not think an Aubrey vote would not gain traction.

Creature is suspect because he is all over the place. He entered the game very reluctant to provide any legitimate responses and/or blew off questions. He has expressed a willingness to vote "almost" anyone. His flips in opinion on me (and his buddy Aubrey) have come seemingly out of nowhere and I fail to see any pro-town content coming from him.

hapa is suspect because 1) a town read for me (Rel) and a TBD for me but generally townread OoO both appear extremely confident in their suspicions of hapa. For more gut I would say than solid fact but familiarity does deserve consideration. I also really dislike the way hapa eased on to my wagon in support of the Aubrey (crap) suspicions towards me and then seemed to backtrack on the crux of Aubrey's case (my questions) and say it wasn't any particular questions more so than that multiple people had issue with them. Oh...and that I ironically warned OoO against wall posting in my wall post.

I think I weigh all of my suspects about the same...but I think hapa has the best chance of being the D1 lynch. My alternative to hapa would probably be Creature.

VOTE: hapahauli

Well that probably put an end to an Hapa / Fitz team

oh yeah that's still a big indicator against Hapa / Fitz being partners

[Rels]

it was just after Hapa came back with big cases too, while he had several votes on him. Makes 0 sense to push + vote him at that point if they're together

[Rels]

Rels had some posts that i found out possibly coming from scum!Rels. Hapa wagon was gladly accepted by almost all of the players, so idk.. that probably makes him town? I have to look back and see who actually weren't willing to lynch Hapa and if that could mean something.

This is early D2. This is how OOO says he's gonna assess the situation about Hapa. And it makes sense. This is the thing to do. If Hapa lynch was accepted by everybody, then it's an indicator of Hapa being town.

Then it's said that the flipped scum actually was one of the dude NOT voting for Hapa but voting for every counter wagon available. So giving his reasonning above it should point at Hapa being scum more than Hapa being town. But that's not what happens. Actually the opposite happens; suddenly in OOO POV it makes more sense that Hawk never voted Hapa while scumreading him because he knew Hapa was town.
This lapse of logic doesn't make sense. Especially from OOO who is the most logical player I know of. This is OOO knowing that if his partner Hapa is lynched he has a very, very big chance of losing because of the setup; so he has to try SOMETHING to save his teammate.

such bad logic coming from OOO trying to get people to townread Hapa. Rereading the arguments we had during D2 it's was really fucking bad

[Rels]

I believe Rels never shoots Kop here and he has consistently scumreading Hapa and ACTUALLY pushed his lynch. I have my theory on why Kop was killed and Rels doesnt fit there as mafia.

This post feels like he's setting me up for changing my mind or attacking me if I still scumread him after the Kop kill. Like "Rels is never mafia making that shot 'cause Rels is good scum!" then gets modifier in "OOO is never mafia making that shot 'cause OOO is good scum!" He's having a position that basically force me to either not scumread him (if I agree with his logic) or give an opportunity to attack me (if I don't).

[Rels]

which is what happened

[Rels]

Like, in OOO's mind start of D3 I was NEVER scum. He had been pushing the idea that I was never scum with Hapa for a long time, example:

Alright. You literally suggested that that two of Rels, hapahauli and me are mafia.
That doesn't make any sense since - as you have YOURSELF said before, bussing makes very very little sense in this setup. That is something i agree on.

Now let's imagine that you are actually right and two of us three are mafia. Why on earth did our scumbuddy Hawk get lynched???? Do you seriously think that regardless of which two of us are mafia, we wouldn't have tried (and tbh totally succeeded) to push the lynch towards Aubrey, Kop, or hell just get a no-lynch??? You seriously have to think we are the dumbest scumteam i have ever seen (especially in a setup where if you happen to shoot a wrong dude one of your teammates die). It makes literally no sense and combination of two from us three is the remaining pair of mafia. I am not sure how closely you had read the thread but all of us were online at varying times when the lynch was decided.

- If i am mafia why do i strongly defend Aubrey? If i am mafia why don't i latch on Kop when i could have easily done that?
- If Hapahauli is mafia why doesn't he latch on Aubrey and just disagree with the case on Hawk? He could have easily done that. If he is mafia why doesn't he just vote fitz with me (to make the lynch most likely end up in no-lynch)? If Hapahauli is mafia why doesn't he just make up reasons for suspecting Kop and go for that lynch instead, when he could have easily done that?
- If Rels is mafia why does he just vote for Hawk when BlackVoid says so? (hint: if i was in a team with Rels there is literally zero chance he would have done that) It is true that Rels' vote is quite baffling since i can't really tell where his mind actually changes in him putting down the vote.

Now i could understand if you thought one of the three of us was bussing. But no, you think both of Hawk's teammates were bussing him to death without even really trying to make anything else happen. I am not sure which kind of mafia play you are familiar with but that is just retarded mafia play in my opinion, and i know i won't - and likely Rels won't let that happen. Especially if we are, as you suggest, in a team with Hapahauli (or with each other), who we both are familiar with. If i am mafia i will always try to get the whole team to the same page in scumchat and make sure our team has a strategy - that strategy is never "bus a partner and defend all the possible town mislynches on D1", because it's a bad strategy.

Furthermore, and i will only tell this once more, the only reason you seem to be coming to your conclusion is because you don't like the people you are "suspecting". You have not given any real reasons for suspecting us. At least i know the reasons you laid out for suspecting me are complete bullshit because you are either calling something that is never alignment indicative scummy, or blatantly making something i have said to mean what you want it to mean - not what it actually means. You also know that not all of us three can possibly be mafia, yet you are calling all of us out for what seems to be "i dont like how this guy plays". I am sorry if it doesn't fit to your world that all of us three play is based on logic and scumreads usually based on leaps of logic. If we call something that is illogical illogic that is not an attack towards the person, that's there to say "it doesn't make any sense". It never crossed your mind that focusing on the above can just be a playstyle thing, ESPECIALLY SINCE YOU KNOW AT LEAST ONE OF US HAS TO BE TOWN.

It's like you're living in a different world and when someone proves you a different world, you completely dismiss the possibility of it still existing....
And again, i am not trying to be a dick towards you cassielle, i am just saying that if this is the logic you are going to use this game i don't really see a point in using my time to convince you of anything, or argue with you about anything, because we are coming from a completely different place and arguing with you doesn't do ANYTHING, it cannot possibly help in any way regardless of what i say in case you don't understand what i am saying.

There, that was the last time i am gonna touch this issue. You can keep voting for me all you want and i wont fucking care. But as long as you are not willing to take part in a conversation that actually has any logic in it, i really don't see much point in joining the conversation you're trying to push forward.

And he re iterated it start of D3:

Rels is always town. No way he is mafia with Hapa.
I am trying to ask something from momom which would give me a better read on him. Doom looked town to me.

I believe Rels never shoots Kop here and he has consistently scumreading Hapa and ACTUALLY pushed his lynch. I have my theory on why Kop was killed and Rels doesnt fit there as mafia.

Now he thinks I'm lock town start of D3 right ? End of D2 I stated very clearly than I was quite sure that the team was Hapa / OOO. Hapa flipped scum. If I'm town coming into D3 what should I think ? Since Hapa flipped scum, OOO should be my natural scumread, if I'm being consistent ?
But when I enter the thread saying OOO is scum and that the Kop kill is logical with it, OOO attacks me; because in his POV the Kop kill makes OOO town. That doesn't make sense. First, why would I change my scumread over a NIGHT KILL ? Over something that only scum has control of ? Second, he wasn't to explain WHY Fitz or anyone else was more likely to do a WIFOM shot than him. But he still attacked me for it. Sneakily attacked me too, since he rescinded it after; but continuing to call me dumb or scum.

I think OOO tried to coerce me into townreading me over this logic: good scum player wouldn't have shot Kop. If I had agreed with this logic, I would townread OOO. If I disagreed with that logic, suddenly OOO has an angle of attack on me.

[Rels]

99% sure OOO is the last scum.
- his read on Hapa D2 is the strongest thing against him. At no point did it make sense coming from OOO, who is extremely logical. Hapa not voting Hawk but voting every other counter wagon available => OOO concludes this makes Hapa town, and insinuates it makes me scum. It only makes sense coming from scum!OOO who is trying to not lynch his partner.
- the fact that he was looking to lynch Fitz at all costs D2 shows in his interactions with the thread, in particular with Cass and BV. See these posts : Link 1 Link 2 Link 3
- the way he sneakily pushed me D2 and D3. D2 he had posts pushing the idea I was scum, but denied doing them: See this post. For D3, see the post I just made.
- the Kop NK. It was a bad kill for anyone. So the reason Kop was killed was NOT because it would give an objectivelly good advantage to the last scum. So the kill was WIFOM. WIFOM kills are usually made by scum in a bad spot. OOO was the one looking to be lynched when D2 started: scumread by the majority of the thread, in particular by BV, thread leader and lock town.

VOTE: outoforder

[Rels]

when D3* started

[havingfitz]

Checking in.

Was without power most of yesterday due to blizzard in New England and digging out from 12+ inches of snow this morning. Have not read anything since my last post. Will try to catch up today.

[KidAmn]

Ooo case is compelling. Still get the feeling we're being left to argue amongst ourselves. MOMO GET IN HERE.

[momo]

Hello, wassup?

What do y'all wanna ask me.

[Rels]

Checking in.

Was without power most of yesterday due to blizzard in New England and digging out from 12+ inches of snow this morning. Have not read anything since my last post. Will try to catch up today.

The hype for your posts is always there.

Hello, wassup?

What do y'all wanna ask me.

How many games are you playing right now ?

[Rels]

lol you got lynched as JK

[KidAmn]

Hello, wassup?

What do y'all wanna ask me.

Your thoughts on the last day and a bit that you've lurked through and a realist based on your own thinking instead of "can someone sheep me in" would be nice. Just something to indicate you're actually engaging the game in the day phases. Soon.

[cassielle]

what a mess to catch up on

ooo is probscum, rels case is convincing and ooo's logic is poor and full of ad hominem and outright insults and vitriol (which he had ditched for d2 when it started to get him scumreads, check the timing)

is ooo isnt scum its prob rels

kidamn possible but unlikely

[Tenshii]

Votecount 3.3

[L-4] havingfitz - momo
[L-4] momo - KidAmn
[L-4] outoforder - Rels

Not voting: outoforder, BlackVoid, havingfitz, cassielle, Creature

With 8 alive, a majority vote is decided with 5 players.

Deadline: (expired on 2017-03-27 10:45:00)

[Rels]

well I got interrupted in the middle so the rest will have to wait. But I've seen two games where momo has flipped, one scumgame where he had 241 posts (lynched D3) and one town game where he had 56 (lynched D4). So at the very least activity is not a scumtell from him. Leaving work, see you later (=
Scum game: viewtopic.php?p=8979248#p8979248
Town game: viewtopic.php?p=8966258#p8966258

[BlackVoid]

Yeah, I'm pretty much sold. In particular I don't think outoforder claiming that the nk conclusively clears him was reasonable nor do I think his defense of Hapahauli on D2 made any sense and just felt convoluted.

I want

Fitz

to catch up and post thoughts and then I'm down to lynch. I've dismissed Momo as a troll and I think Doom's posting has been town.

[momo]

Not a troll, just busy town.

[havingfitz]

In my read through I see BV had some questions for me. Here are some links he asked for before I get into general game commentary (I also think I have some questions from KidAdm I need to respond to)...

Here are some games as town where I objected to the day's lynch.

See post 626. http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=69822

Annnnd I just relooked at the BV question....have I objected to a scum lynch before as town.....ffs...not asking for much there.

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=62114 - In this game I hold off voting for quite a while to start D2 and towards the end of D2 I defend the impending mislynch (FA_Q2).

Of the limited games that I'm off the D1 or D2 lynch I only find the few above where I express my objection. I adamently objected prior to a D1 mislynch in one of my ongoing games as well but as it can't be referenced and I'm still alive....oh well.

Games as town where I held off voting:

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=69456 Replaced in D1. Never voted D2. Delayed voting D3. Also worth noting that in this game I held off voting a suspect (Grey who flipped mafia) in favor of extending the day. Similar to my willingness to take my vote off hapa D1.

Typically I like to have my vote in play. In the same ongoing game I do not refer to above I go long periods on two days without voting. As well as in another of my ongoing games. I think that is more a function of v/LAs and RLS affecting all games equally and not so much for AI reasons.