Mini 518: Underground Mafia, The Nightmare is Over!

[Adel]

So we can hold them accountable. I don't care if the hammer is accurate, the person that hammers could easily be a scum-buddy who is simply late on the wagon. A hammer is a scumtell in my book, with an-inaccurate lynch being far scummier than an accurate one.

As I've said before, I think that Flay is scum, but that doesn't mean that I know that he is. What do you want from me, false confidence?

[NabakovNabakov]

Vote Count as of Post 1150

Mr. Flay(4):

Adel, Jitsu, jerubbaal, Abstract Actuary

Adel(4):

Oman, Mr. Flay, Setael, curiouskarmadog

Setael(1):

Sudo_Nym

Not Voting (0):

Nobody!

9 alive, 5 will lynch.

Prodded Sudo_Nym

[Mr. Flay]

@Flay: How do you know that Adel is not an insane cop?

I seriously want to hear the answer to this one. Seriously.

Huh? In the message I quoted from Adel she said that

if

she was a Cop, she might be wrong because of sanity issues, or because I'm a Miller.

I know she's not a Sane Cop because I'm pro-town. I am discounting the "unknown Miller" possibility because this is a Normal game. But she's

explicitly

said she wasn't relying on cop investigation, which throws out the 'hidden' reason for her immovable vote that makes sense: Insane/Paranoid Cop with a 'Guilty' result on me.

A hammer is a scumtell in my book, with an-inaccurate lynch being far scummier than an accurate one.

Interesting. So you'd never hammer someone yourself? Or are there situations where a hammer is not a scumtell?

Looks like Adel and I are waiting the other one to blink when it comes to claiming. Obviously I'd prefer that she start.

[Jitsu]

Huh? In the message I quoted from Adel she said that

if

she was a Cop, she might be wrong because of sanity issues, or because I'm a Miller.

I know she's not a Sane Cop because I'm pro-town. I am discounting the "unknown Miller" possibility because this is a Normal game. But she's

explicitly

said she wasn't relying on cop investigation, which throws out the 'hidden' reason for her immovable vote that makes sense: Insane/Paranoid Cop with a 'Guilty' result on me.

Where did Adel explicitly say she wasn't relying on cop investigation?

Interesting. So you'd never hammer someone yourself? Or are there situations where a hammer is not a scumtell?

I was wondering the same thing, especially since Adel was the one who hammered Miztef. If memory serves, she voted for him but because it was not in the proper format, so it didn't count. I remember thinking about whether I should hammer or not, but then Adel did before I could decide.

[Abstract Actuary]

what makes you think that I put adel at -1 JUST to make her claim? Seems like a jump in logic.

I didn't say you put her at L-1 just to make her claim. I just said that if that was your motivation then it isn't a good one. If you think Adel is a better lynch then I am fine with you voting for her. But I don't think you should vote for her "just to make things interesting" or especially if you are trying to get her to claim.

I think claims are good...how do you think we caught Korlash in his lie

Additional claims aren't good - if you need me to explain why, let me know, but the rest of the posts on this page saying so should be enough evidence if you are still skeptical. We caught Korlash in a lie because he made a bunch of mistakes. He wasn't even in any position to claim a role and he did.

...now settle down AA and quit pushing crap.

LOL. I'm not "riled up" or "pushing crap". If your vote on Adel is for the sole purpose of forcing her to claim you should unvote her. I also think that you should only vote for her if you would like to see her lynched, because your vote makes it a real possibility.

Adel is still female, folks.

Ha. Every time I write something about her I always write it with female pronouns and then go in and change them to male pronouns because for some reason I thought I remembered someone correcting me the other way before.

While I agree with AA that we shouldn't have more people claim than is necessary, it's by no means a sure thing that I'm going to be the lynch for today. Right now just one vote (or unvote) would change that. I will claim or give my final scumlist, or both, if people want. It does not appear that there's a will to quicklynch me, which is a good thing.

I agree that it isn't a sure thing, I just didn't want curiouskarmadog to vote for Adel for the purpose of getting her to claim if he ultimately thought that you would be lynched or thought you were a better or equal candidate.

So, I'm fine with a vote on Adel if you think he is a better lynch than Mr. Flay

@AA - did you really just say you'd vote Adel if CKD thinks you should?

Ok nvm I think I misread your post. What you're saying is you're "fine with" CKD's vote on Adel. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Yes, I meant that I was ok with curiouskarmadog voting for Adel if he thought she was a better lynch. I didn't mean to imply anything about my own vote.


I think the issue of full disclosure has already been addressed, although being a relatively new player I'm not exactly positive what you guys are asking or what his answer means.

Mod: does this game have a fully open reveal?

If Korlash was a Mafia Roleblocker, would that have been posted?

Additionally, if Mexal or Miztef had a role, would that have been revealed with their death?

My policy on revealing reveal policy is decidedly closed. Better luck next time.

[Adel]

AA: a fully open reveal would tell us the role (townie, cop, goon, ect..) and alignment (pro-town, town-aligned, scum, mafia, werewolf, ect..) -- a closed reveal would only tell us that the player is dead and not tell us the role or the alignment. I've suspected that thanks to the flavor (underground & darkness) we may have a semi-open reveal where the alignment is revealed, but not the role.

NabNab's response in 951 did little to illuminate or resolve my question.

You're not an insane cop, which is good to know. So what IS the basis for your immovable vote? Posting analysis?

I know she's not a Sane Cop because I'm pro-town.

This could be a slip worth analyzing...

Sold!

[Adel]

So you'd never hammer someone yourself? Or are there situations where a hammer is not a scumtell?

I think I've hammered in about a quarter of the games where I was town-aligned. My definition of a scumtell is any action that increases the percentage chance that the person is scum by my analysis. I suppose it wouldn't be a scumtell if a hammer ended the game with a wion for the town, like the time I hammered in Newbie 520, or if the person laying the hammer gets nk'd during the night and revealed to be town... can you think of less extreme exceptions.

[Adel]

a "wion" is like a "win", but with more celebration...

[Oman]

Whilst

a "wion" is like a "win", but with more celebration...

that made me laugh. Onto the game:

If Adel is in fact claiming cop I will jump on Flay.

I do not believe Adel to be an isane cop because this explains her work on Korlash: cop with guilty. It also explains why she dropped the case of Jer (she had a guilty on someone else).

I'm going to get slammed for this: Adel, I'd like to know either way.

[curiouskarmadog]

Whilst

a "wion" is like a "win", but with more celebration...

that made me laugh. Onto the game:

If Adel is in fact claiming cop I will jump on Flay.

I do not believe Adel to be an isane cop because this explains her work on Korlash: cop with guilty. It also explains why she dropped the case of Jer (she had a guilty on someone else).

I'm going to get slammed for this: Adel, I'd like to know either way.

Adel, have you soft claimed cop or not....if you did, is that why you attacked Korlash yesterday? Is that why you are attacking Flay today?

I dont think she is insane, if she got the guilty on Korlash yesterday.

Personally I dont think she has claimed anything so my vote stays.

[Adel]

I'm not going to claim.

[Adel]

Reality check: how in the hell am I at -1? Because of the

remote

chance that I am scum and immediately decided to bus my scumbuddy immediately upon replacing in, even while he made a claim almost everyone else believed?

Seriously, how is Flay getting a pass?

[Oman]

Unvote Vote Mr Flay

If he's town, I'm after you tomorrow Adel.

Your inability to claim is either a cop-tell or a scum-tell (or a townie drawing a NK).

I guess we'll know more later.

[Adel]

some notes I was in the middle of taking:

Korlash claimed in post 581
588 -- Miztef unvotes saying that Korlash's ingnorance of the existence of a mafia RB role seemed sincere.
589 -- ckd confirms vote on Miztef saying that Miztef is just jumping from wagon to wagon
591-- Adel lists 589 as an example of a scumbuddy jumping of a partner's wagon.

I think the last scum can probably be found by looking at the responses to Korlash's wagon and roleclaim across the two days. Flay immediately replaced in and voted for Setael, and I can't figure if that was just for some immediate distancing or not since there was pressure on Korlash, but he must've know that the wagon on korlash wouldn't last for long.

[Adel]

736 -- hella scummy post by setael now that we know that Korlash was scum.

btw -- ckd and jitsu are totally townie

[Adel]

787 setael gets voted on by korlash under a new & improved wagon
788 could easily be a wagon jump by sudo-nym
ditto for setael's and jerubbaal's subsequent votes.

could both of his scumbuddies have been on his wagon, really? did they decide to bus him hard & fast after the contradiction caught by ckd? I think so.

[Sudo_Nym]

Well, I'm sorry I've been away; the New Year celebration around here was crazy, and combined with the start of the winter term has kept me hopping.

Let's see if I can inject my own brand of Sudo-psuedo-logic in the game:

There's no reason Adel should be at L-1. The only real evidence I've seen against her is that she may have bussed Korlash, and her style is different.

I'm thinking that it's much more likely that Flay is the scum than Adel is; though this assessment current includes more gut instinct than I'm comfortable with, which is why I refrain from hammering.

The best I can promise is that I'll re-read the last dozen or so pages to see what I can see.

[curiouskarmadog]

well if I am reading this correct, Oman just dropped the hammer..so we are in twilight....some of our questions will be answered shortly..HOPEFULLY, tomorrow, we will have more questions answered. I also hope we have a repeat of last night's lack of kill. If we have a doc, I think they chose wisely with their protection.

[Oman]

I read it as such too CKD.

[NabakovNabakov]

Final Vote Count of Day Three!

Mr. Flay(5):

Adel, Jitsu, jerubbaal, Abstract Actuary, Oman

Adel(3):

Mr. Flay, Setael, curiouskarmadog

Setael(1):

Sudo_Nym

Not Voting (0):

Nobody!

All day long the voting tablets had flown over the board as what the players had come to call "bandwagons" were formed and dissolved. Finally, (with a bit of prodding from The Voice), 5 tablets had lined up next to Mr. Flay, their first letters spelling a sinister "AJJAO".

"Have you decided?" The Voice asks. One after the other, A, J, J, A, and O nod their heads.

"Excellent" The Voice intones. A third noose descends from the high ceiling. Proudly shaking off the hands of his townspeople, Mr. Flay places the noose around his own neck. As the floor recedes, he lets out a final, accusing "AJJAO!"

The Voice, as always, finalizes the day:
"

Mr. Flay - Townie

lynched Day Three. Please retire to your cells for Night Three."

[NabakovNabakov]

7 doors open. 4 players walk into the "arena". 2 more stumble, and a seventh crawls. No sound comes from the loudspeaker for a time, and the players count themselves to see who is missing.

Adel's door is closed. With the exception of Miztef, Korlash, and Mr. Flay, all eyes go first to her door, and then to the PA speaker, waiting.

"

Adel-Townie

, killed Night Three."

The players look around in confusion. Finally, one volunteers: "7 alive, 4 will lynch?"

"Bingo."

[curiouskarmadog]

going to reread.

[curiouskarmadog]

I'm picking up slight scumvibes from CKD here, mostly the fence sitting that I've seen him do as scum before (Baby too much scum).

If Adel is town, he'll be my first to look at.

also, interested to hear what comes of this next.

[Oman]

You actually changed that CKD.

Remember you were all "What the fuck?" and I was all "oh yeah".

[Setael]

Vote: Abstract Actuary

I’m the cop. Last night was the first time I hit scum. N1 I investigated Mexal and N2 I got an innocent on Sudo.

I thought about investigating Adel last night, but after yesterday I thought it would be a wasted investigation since I was sure Adel was scum when Flay came up town. Instead I investigated AA, and I was right. He’s scum.