Mafia 73: NEGWLTWWWTKY - Abandoned!

[Mastermind of Sin]

The quote that's currently troubling me is this, Yosarian:

Sorry, but...are you stupid?

Why in the world would I do that if I'm scum

, knowing that I'll be getting the blunt of all of the negative attention in the world? If I was down, why would I try to distract the town from anything?

I had been more or less default-assuming, previous to this, that Quagmire hadn't read his role PM. Yet right there he says, "Why in the world would I do that if I'm scum", which is supposedly information he wouldn't have had yet when he did it. So why word it like that? The quote above seems to try to say (paraphrased) "I knew I was not scum when I claimed that I didn't know my alignment." Which means something there is a lie.

Peers: I do not think TS was seriously accusing Ramp or myself of being scum.

I think you're reaching here. The more obvious assumption is that the reply was subliminally based off the fact that the people attacking him assumed he was lying about not reading his role pm. When you look at it from that point of view, his reply makes perfect sense. The fact that you are stretching to try and fit everything he does into a negative light does not make me feel better about your attacks on him.

[Toaster Strudel]

The more obvious assumption is that the reply was subliminally based off the fact that the people attacking him assumed he was lying about not reading his role pm. When you look at it from that point of view, his reply makes perfect sense.

Hahahaha.

[Bookitty]

I think you're reaching here. The more obvious assumption is that the reply was subliminally based off the fact that the people attacking him assumed he was lying about not reading his role pm. When you look at it from that point of view, his reply makes perfect sense. The fact that you are stretching to try and fit everything he does into a negative light does not make me feel better about your attacks on him.

The more obvious assumption is one that requires subliminal psychological analysis?

Isn't the more obvious assumption that he just screwed up and said something scummy?

I don't think it's a huge leap of logic to look at what he said and see that something isn't right with it. Anyway, wouldn't it be more useful if HE explained it, rather than you providing psychoanalysis on it?

[Quagmire]

I think you're reaching here. The more obvious assumption is that the reply was subliminally based off the fact that the people attacking him assumed he was lying about not reading his role pm. When you look at it from that point of view, his reply makes perfect sense. The fact that you are stretching to try and fit everything he does into a negative light does not make me feel better about your attacks on him.

The more obvious assumption is one that requires subliminal psychological analysis?

Isn't the more obvious assumption that he just screwed up and said something scummy?

I don't think it's a huge leap of logic to look at what he said and see that something isn't right with it. Anyway, wouldn't it be more useful if HE explained it, rather than you providing psychoanalysis on it?

MoS is right on the money.

[Setael]

First, my thoughts on Quag. This post is the most helpful of his all game:

The problem is, I'm apathetic to mafia now more than ever so I find no desire to allocate my resources in actually playing the game.

because it explains why his play has been so odd, distracting and unhelpful. Quag, if this is how you feel you should not be playing mafia, because you end up being nothing but a distraction. I consider your play in this game utterly useless and anti-town but I don't think you knew you were scum at the time you announced that you hadn't read your role pm. I see no reason for scum to draw that attention to themselves, not even to protect a scum buddy who may have been under pressure at the time, because if either of you are lynched it'd be far too obvious looking back. I think you really didn't look at your pm because you just don't care and shouldn't be playing. I think you finally did look at your role pm when you were -1 and I'm not sure yet if you found out you're scum or town. Your reaction to Bookitty's entrance into the game was so OFF imo. Her post was logical and made perfect sense and your response to it made no sense at all. You attacked her for finding hasdf suspicious for his odd defense of you, claiming she should be attacking you instead. Her point stands whether you are town or scum - either way hasdf's play made no sense if he's town, so your attack made absolutely no sense.

It is true that the town would gain a lot of information from a Quag lynch. Not only from examining his wagon, but most the talk today has centered around him. Lynching anyone else provides far less info. However, that's not a good reason to lynch him, especially when some of the players I find scummiest seem to KNOW he'll come up town.

Not only that, one of the biggest problems with a person who hasn't read his PM is that it's much harder to make connections or get information if they do turn out to be scum. However, the large bandwagon on him also helped solve that, I think; if he does turn out to be scum, I think we'll get a lot of info from the way his bandwagon went.

This statement made me think yos knows Quag is town. If Quag turns up scum, Yos would look pretty bad so I can't see him saying "if he does turn out to be scum, I think we'll get a lot of info from the way his bandwagon went" unless he KNOWS Quag would come up town.

Those who are complaining that not reading your role PM as scum disadvantages the town, and trying to use that as part of an argument for a lynch, are missing the point entirely.

By the way erg0, what point were they missing?

At this point I could see it going either way - Quag as scum or town. I therefore think this attitude is unwise:

Blanket of Suspicion (BoS) on all players that defend Quagmire, whose behavior in this game is absolutely indefensible. Either they are protecting a buddy, or they know it's a mislynch. Under the blanket: YagamiLight, MoS, Peers, Yosarian2, and hasdagas (though hasdagas' recent behavior makes me less confident that he might be scum).

This looks like an attempt at intimidation/bullying players into agreeing with you. If they dare think Quag is town, LOOK OUT! That being said, I think TS is town and completely agreed with this post:

For clarity, I'll add the following comments.

I am not advocating a Quagmire lynch.

Rather, I am advocating a hasdfas lynch, or maybe a Yosarian2 lynch, depending on Yosarian's responses.

Why is that?

(1) Quag's play is irrational, harmful, and to some extent personality-based, and really dumb. Plus, it's the kind of stunt he pulled as scum.
(2) That kind of play is indefensible.
(3) Who would defend Quagmire? (a) a scumbuddy or (b) a scum who knows this is a mislynch.
(4) Both hasdfas and Yosarian3 defended Quagmire against all logic and to such an extent, and so lacking in subtlety that I cannot possibly see them as Quagmirebuddies. Therefore, I consider hassfas and Yosarian2 to be, quite possibly, among the "knowing minority" that knew Quagmire was a mislynch.
(5) I can't imagine any other rationale for so vehemently defending such completely idiotic play.

Although... if Quagmire's stunt has forced the scum out of their safe haven, maybe he's not so idiotic after all! Wink

vote: hasdgfas

I also agreed with 743 pointing out zu faul's opportunism (which was largely ignored) as well as your 758 & 759 pointing out distancing between hasdf and peers. You seem to think hasdf responded well and seem to have dropped your suspicion. I haven't. Bookitty's post was also spot-on imo:

Him not reading his role PM doesn't mean he's wasting anyone's time. If he's scum, it's a great play because then he's hard to read. If he's town, he can just play as a townie and not worry about any possible power role that he has. The reason our time is being wasted is because everyone's making such a big deal over this.

This is nonsense. It's a form of cheating, in my opinion. If he's scum, he's not giving any tells in a game where such tells are the only evidence we have to go on. It's not "hard to read", it's impossible. And hasdgfas, do you really think he just played as a townie and helped the town? Do you think he was scumhunting? What do you think Quagmire did that was useful to town? Do you think that Mafia would be playable if everyone followed Quagmire's example in this, or winnable for town? (And don't say, "oh, but they won't," because you're suggesting it as a great play for scum and a decent play for town, so you are ADVOCATING it, hasdgfas. If it's such a brilliant move by Quagmire, we should all do it, right? Except that's not how Mafia is supposed to be played.)

I don't see any reason why someone would regard not reading one's role PM as a pro-town action and defend it, especially in light of Quagmire's actual actions, which included quoting from another ongoing game in this thread to justify a policy lynch, trailing MoS's logic, and pretty much nothing that was useful to town. Quagmire is wrong, and what he's doing is against the spirit of the game. You, hasdgfas, are defending something that is detrimental to town and that in practice, in this game, was extremely anti-town. And I don't see a good reason for you to do that, unless Quagmire is town, and you are scum buddying up.

unvote; vote hasdgfas

Today's lynch should be hasdgfas.

unvote; vote: hasdgfas

[Albert B. Rampage]

Unvote, vote hasdgfas

[Yosarian2]

wait I unvote for MoS for some random reason. I'm very lost in this game.

No, actually first you unvoted Quag to vote Albert in what was apparently a joke vote, which is just bizzare a month into the game, and then you unvoted Albert and voted MOS for a really bad reason, and then you apparently forgot who you were voting for.

Could you try and explain any of those actions?

[Toaster Strudel]

Today's lynch should be hasdgfas.

unvote; vote: hasdgfas

Unvote, vote hasdgfas

Oh no, guys! We can't be lynching somebody, not in this game!

[Yosarian2]

The more obvious assumption is one that requires subliminal psychological analysis?

Isn't the more obvious assumption that he just screwed up and said something scummy?

I don't think it's a huge leap of logic to look at what he said and see that something isn't right with it. Anyway, wouldn't it be more useful if HE explained it, rather than you providing psychoanalysis on it?

Eh? I really don't understand what's supposed to "not be right" about what he said. People were accusing him of being scum who was lying about not reading his role PM, his response was "if I was scum, why would I do this?" It's not a very strong argument, but there's nothing inherently wrong with it if you read it in context.

Not only that, one of the biggest problems with a person who hasn't read his PM is that it's much harder to make connections or get information if they do turn out to be scum. However, the large bandwagon on him also helped solve that, I think; if he does turn out to be scum, I think we'll get a lot of info from the way his bandwagon went.

This statement made me think yos knows Quag is town. If Quag turns up scum, Yos would look pretty bad so I can't see him saying "if he does turn out to be scum, I think we'll get a lot of info from the way his bandwagon went" unless he KNOWS Quag would come up town.

Eh? I don't know if Quag will come up town or not. If he comes up town, then the people who irrationally kept pushing his lynch beyond the point where it seems logical to do so (to me, anyway) would look bad. If he comes up scum, then the people who opposed my initial attempts to pressure him into reading his role PM will look bad (which, if I remember correctly was mostly MOS and hasdgfas). I wasn't really thinking in terms of how anything would make me look.

[Toaster Strudel]

Lynching anyone else provides far less info. However, that's not a good reason to lynch him, especially when some of the players I find scummiest seem to KNOW he'll come up town.

That's debatable. But hey.

Not only that, one of the biggest problems with a person who hasn't read his PM is that it's much harder to make connections or get information if they do turn out to be scum. However, the large bandwagon on him also helped solve that, I think; if he does turn out to be scum, I think we'll get a lot of info from the way his bandwagon went.

This statement made me think yos knows Quag is town. If Quag turns up scum, Yos would look pretty bad so I can't see him saying "if he does turn out to be scum, I think we'll get a lot of info from the way his bandwagon went" unless he KNOWS Quag would come up town.

Ah-ha!!! Someone else see that Yosarian is so scum in this game. Yay!

I don't see any reason why someone would regard not reading one's role PM as a pro-town action and defend it, especially in light of Quagmire's actual actions, which included quoting from another ongoing game in this thread to justify a policy lynch, trailing MoS's logic, and pretty much nothing that was useful to town. Quagmire is wrong, and what he's doing is against the spirit of the game. You, hasdgfas, are defending something that is detrimental to town and that in practice, in this game, was extremely anti-town. And I don't see a good reason for you to do that, unless Quagmire is town, and you are scum buddying up.

Yosarian did the same thing.

[IH]

DGB's logic in the post about Yos2 and Has being scum because they were defending a scumbudy, so we should lynch them instead of Quag is HORRIBLE.

[Yosarian2]

I don't see any reason why someone would regard not reading one's role PM as a pro-town action and defend it, especially in light of Quagmire's actual actions, which included quoting from another ongoing game in this thread to justify a policy lynch, trailing MoS's logic, and pretty much nothing that was useful to town. Quagmire is wrong, and what he's doing is against the spirit of the game. You, hasdgfas, are defending something that is detrimental to town and that in practice, in this game, was extremely anti-town. And I don't see a good reason for you to do that, unless Quagmire is town, and you are scum buddying up.

Yosarian did the same thing.

Liar, liar, pants on fire, sitting on a telaphone wire.

Or, in other words, I was the first person to protest Quagmire not reading his role PM, I attacked him the hardest for it and led the campaign to force him to either read his PM or be lynched. So, no, I never said that "quagmire not reading his PM is a pro-town action", I very loudly and very cleary said the exact opposite of that.

No one is going to follow you anywhere if you don't stop your habit of just flat out making up stuff that's completly untrue.

[Toaster Strudel]

If he comes up town, then the people who irrationally kept pushing his lynch beyond the point where it seems logical to do so (to me, anyway) would look bad.

If he comes up scum, then the people who opposed my initial attempts to pressure him into reading his role PM will look bad (which, if I remember correctly was mostly MOS and hasdgfas). I wasn't really thinking in terms of how anything would make me look.

Interesting. No matter how Quagmire comes up, you'll be smelling like roses?

OK. Let me translate from Yosarianese to English.

(1) If Quagmire comes up town, you're hoping I'm going to look bad, because, in your scumpinion, you think that I'm pushing his lynch irrationally.

(2) If Quagmire comes up scum, MoS and hasdagas are going to look bad because they opposed your pressure to get Quagmire to read his PM? Ain't that a blast... Because MoS, hasdagas, and YOU (which you conveniently forgot to mention) are the three players that defended Quagmire tooth and nail!

I tell you, the truth is the opposite of what you say.

(1) If Quagmire comes up town, MoS and hasdagas and YOU are going to look bad because you three defended him irrationally, since he is, best case scenario, and I think we have a concensus on this, a totally worthless player. That means that you old scumbags all knew he was town.

(2) If Quagmire comes up scum, actually... it's going to look like I not only bus'ed him, but tied in up to railway sleepers in front of an oncoming train.

[Bookitty]

By the way, that quote you keep quoting as Setael's is mine. Though I believe she and I agree on its content, and so I don't mind if she wants it.

unvote; vote hasdgfas

[Toaster Strudel]

DGB's logic in the post about Yos2 and Has being scum because they were defending a scumbudy, so we should lynch them instead of Quag is HORRIBLE.

I am voting for Quag. What game are you referring to? Can't be this one.

[hasdgfas]

How many votes on me is that?

[Toaster Strudel]

Or, in other words, I was the first person to protest Quagmire not reading his role PM, I attacked him the hardest for it and led the campaign to force him to either read his PM or be lynched.

Big deal: you said that you voted him for PRESSURE and that you'd go back to voting for MoS the second Quagmire posted that he read his PM, no claim necessary! I give you no credit for "going after" Quagmire.

So, no, I never said that "quagmire not reading his PM is a pro-town action", I very loudly and very cleary said the exact opposite of that.

I didn't say that you said "quagmire not reading his PM is a pro-town action" - where do you get that? You defended Quagmire AFTER that, requiring no proof that he had read his PM, and arguing against anyone that thought he was scummy for his actions after allegedly reading his PM.

[Battle Mage]

Will post on Thursday. Maths exam tomoz. Wish me Luck!

BM

[Toaster Strudel]

How many votes on me is that?

I'm counting 4 votes for you, and 4 votes for Quagmire.

Phew! I thought we were close to lynching someone... god forbid! It's too soon... only 43 pages!

[hasdgfas]

Someone (I think it was TS) wanted me to post why my vote is still on Peers. Besides the fact that I haven't gotten much of anything pro-town out of most of his posts.
That said, here it is.

Let's not start the whole "getting defensive" bull again. It's the first freakin' page.

Important stuff can happen on the first page. Don't just throw everything from page 1 out, because sometimes it's really useful.

No problem. Just didn't want self-vote-bandwagoners to start piling on me or something.

anyway, now that it's fixed...

Unvote

vote: BM:

And if I need a reason, it's... um... due to frequent and recurring votehopping. Or something else that sounds similarly random yet not-random. Or whatever.

So you're just jumping on the BM bandwagon? Why? Because BM is considered an easy lynch? You clearly do not have a reason behind it, yet you attempt to look like you do. Why?

How many times do you get an actual, bona-fide legit serious reason to vote for someone on page 1 of a day-start game?

It's not all that uncommon. We have to find something, and surprisingly often there is something suspicious to actually comment on.

Yeah, yeah, pile votes on the guy who tends to go hyper-defensive and get himself lynched. I've learned from my past games... I'm not over-reacting or getting hyper-defensive from now on. Maybe if the bandwagon against me had, y'know, players I knew and respected, I'd take it more seriously.

So you're meta-ing yourself in order to defend yourself? Why don't you actually defend your actions instead of your tendencies?

Why are we letting Peers, who pretty much told us all to fuck off, off the hook?

Technically, I was only saying that to BM and ABR. I don't know the rest of you well enough to tell you to fuck off.

Besides... random phase. You vote for people randomly, you let them off the hook randomly, until someone things they see a pattern in the randomness and then everyone decides if that person is right or if that person is scum.

I think we already mentioned this, but the "random phase" isn't all that random. There are still reasons behind the so-called "random" votes, and if we look closely at the supposed randomness, we can find something from it.

Hey. Yeah. I need to be in this game more.

Yeah, yeah, pile votes on the guy who tends to go hyper-defensive and get himself lynched.

Examples, please.

Can't. Even though I'm dead, the game's still in progress. But apparently saying "I'm going to be calm and not flip out" makes people think you have a reason for being calm and not flipping out. *shrug*

Don't tell us that you're going to be calm, just DO IT. If you say so, it looks like you have something that you could flip out over, but don't.

I'm glad we don't have a deadline right now. I'd have to vote for Sikario8 out of self-defense, and that's a horrible reason to vote for someone (well, not -horrible-, but there's better).

No, you wouldn't have to self-defense vote. You should vote for who you think is scummiest, not just to save yourself. If you're a townie, and you think that the other BW is a townie, leave your vote on someone who you think is scummy. Then if you're lynched and turn up town, people will look more closely at your thoughts and maybe ponder them more.

If you're not willing to take Sikario down, then you are the one that's going to get lynched.

Interestingly enough, several of the people who are voting for me are defending Sikario. Your argument puts me in a position where, to appear less scummy to you, I must appear more scummy to them.

I continue to believe that Sikario is town, and will continue to believe so until someone gives me some actual evidence beyond "Well, he stayed in this game and flaked out of others, so he must have a reason to stay." (No offense, BM, I'm just not ready to trust your meta-game reasonings quite yet.)

At this point, however, ABR... you're wrong. But you might be right soon, it depends on how people vote and on how deadlines go. It's very possible that if I don't vote Sikario, I'll get lynched. But I will not be bullied into casting my vote before I absolutely have to, because I believe the man is town.

Again, if you believe him to be town, then just don't vote for him. At all. You claim to be town, so you shouldn't necessarily care about surviving. You should care about lynching scum. Don't lynch someone you believe is a townie to save your own skin.


I think the "self-defense vote" on someone he thinks is town to save himself is probably the worst of his actions, but most of these aren't very good.

[Erg0]

Those who are complaining that not reading your role PM as scum disadvantages the town, and trying to use that as part of an argument for a lynch, are missing the point entirely.

By the way erg0, what point were they missing?

That was a while ago, but I'm pretty sure the point was that if you genuinely believe that Quag didn't read his PM then you can't use the fact that it benefits scum more than town as a basis for an argument since he wouldn't have known he was scum because he didn't read his PM.

I think that any argument based on Quag's actions and/or people's reactions to them is pretty shaky, hence the reason that I don't agree with your assessment of hasdgfas. Votes based on day 1 drama almost always end with a townie lynch in my experience.

To repeat myself: read Peers' posts in isolation (as hasdgfas has done) and I think you'll agree with my vote.

[Peers]

Since you're in a mind to speculate, why do you think the name of the game is NEGWLTWWWTKY?

.... Mod fell asleep on his keyboard while naming the game?

I think the "self-defense vote" on someone he thinks is town to save himself is probably the worst of his actions, but most of these aren't very good.

.... but I never actually performed that action, I simply said I was willing to vote for someone I thought had a slight chance of being scum in order to save someone I knew wasn't scum.

[Setael]

(1) If Quagmire comes up town, MoS and hasdagas and YOU are going to look bad because you three defended him irrationally, since he is, best case scenario, and I think we have a concensus on this, a totally worthless player. That means that you old scumbags all knew he was town.

I actually agreed a lot with MoS' statements regarding Quag. The one statement I quoted is the only one that makes me raise an eyebrow on Yos - many of the rest of his I can see where he's coming from. hasdf on the other hand, I can see being scum. It also makes sense that not ALL the scums would defend Quag even though if he's town they all know it. Much more likely that only one of those 3 is scum. And between Yos and hasdf I think the case for hasdf is much stronger.

I think that any argument based on Quag's actions and/or people's reactions to them is pretty shaky, hence the reason that I don't agree with your assessment of hasdgfas. Votes based on day 1 drama almost always end with a townie lynch in my experience.

I agree that day1 can be misleading, but I think hasdf is our best bet. I really can't see a townie defending what Quag did, which was so clearly anti-town (doing it at all as well as telling us he did it when he did). Looks a lot more like hasdf was coming from an insider knowledge perspective and felt confident defending hasdf regardless of how anti-town his actions were.

erg0, it would be helpful if you would present a case on Peers rather than repeating ad nauseum that we should read his posts in isolation.

[Setael]

TS, what happened to lynching hagdafas ?

He started to make sense and make himself useful,l so I got bored persecuting him.

@TS, can you specify what hasdf did/said that made sense/was useful? Was it just his case on MoS?

@hasdf, who else besides Peers do you find scummy? Who do you think is likely to be scum with Peers?

[Quagmire]

Some of you are the worst mafia players in the world.

You should know who you are.