Open 674: Duck Duck Goose [Game Over]

[havingfitz]

Deflecting a case on him based on nothing that was on the case != "here is why you are wrong". It is "i am discrediting you gor other atuff because i cant prove you are wrong".

What case? Remind me of your "case."

[Aubrey]

Sorta think this day should end.

pretty much over this day as well.

[Tenshii]

Votecount 1.14

[L-2] Hapahauli - BlackVoid, Aubrey, cassielle, KidAmn, Creature
[L-5] KidAmn - Rels, hapahauli
[L-5] Rels - Kop, Hawk
[L-6] Kop - doomfeathers
[L-6] havingfitz - outoforder

Not voting: havingfitz

With 12 alive, a majority vote is decided with 7 players.

Deadline: (expired on 2017-03-01 23:00:00)

Prod: Rels and hapahauli have (expired on 2017-03-01 09:00:05) to post until being force-replaced.

[cassielle]

@Cass, I don't see how the thought process of "vote Rels, if we hit resistance, switch back to Hap" makes any sense whatsoever. Meaning if there is no resistance, then the Rels wagon goes through and you'll have just called Hap 100% scum and lynched someone else.

What I call browbeating is this quote:

stalling tactics to be aware of:
if players say they refuse to vote rels this dayphase, theyre stalling
if players say that someone outside of rels/hapa has a better chance of hitting scum, theyre stalling
if players push hapa while saying they scumread rels, theyre stalling
if players push rels but don't vote, theyre stalling

You are basically saying if people do anything but vote Rels, they are stalling. I assume you are saying stalling is scummy because I don't see why else you'd mention it in that context.

So, basically "vote Rels or you are scum." That's browbeating trying to get a Rels wagon going through DESPITE the fact that you've called Hap 100% scum. Why shouldn't townies be voting this 100% scum as opposed to Rels?

those four stalling tactics are specifically scummy stalling tactics, as i even /ALREADY/ said to kidamn
1: worded this a little badly -- basically tho if someone says theyd rather no-lynch than wagon rels, thats scummy af on d1 (d2+ not so much)
2: this still lets town say hapa is scum. it discourages fragmenting towns vote from the two popular wagons as the deadline closes. there is nothing bad about calling this out as bad play
3: off-wagon pushing, part 1
4: off-wagon pushing, part 2

town can, for example, doubt my reasons! or they can just say that they prefer a hapa lynch out right? or they can say they arent confident the wagon can get momentum. did you even read the starting bit of the post where i said meeting resistance should be an instant jump back to hapa? in no way is this browbeating -- its calling out bad play for what it damn well is so scum cant fuck up towns votes entirely for the day, while still ensuring we wont fight an uphill battle on a second-place wagon

i said out right: wagon meets resistance, kill it. the stuff that came afterward was pointing out ways of resisting the wagon that are suspect and/or anti-town in nature. i didnt say "dont do these things" or even "if these things happen ignore them"

i said "if the wagon meets any resistance, lynch hapa" -- not a specific kind of resistance, not "unless i say so", no, just flat out -- resistance = move to hapa

in other words: calling that browbeating is blatant misrep, period, end of story

[Rels]

I'm here. I quick read evertyhing I've missed. And I don't know what to do. I spent a lot of time thinking about hte game when I was driving from NL to France and I'm pretty lost. I have lots of townread and my only scumreads are lackluster people, and it seems too easy

[Rels]

About Hapa, I'm still doubting. But if it stays that way he shouyld definitely be the lynch. He's definitely missing something - but what I don't understand if he's scum is that he had a good come back. Good cases. The hard stuff was done and he just had to put effort to survive easily - and he didn't. I don't get it

[Rels]

oh well I'm seeing we still have 30 hours to decide. In TL it's more than half of a day phase

[BlackVoid]

@Rels, can you go over your first impression from your catchup and what reads you have outside of Hap?

[Rels]

@Rels, can you go over your first impression from your catchup and what reads you have outside of Hap?

My impressions ?
You are town. You make smart posts.
Cassielle is town. He makes dumb posts but he believes in them is trying to solve the game.
Creature is town. He still does not care about anything than auto-winning the game.
Hawk might not be town. He seems on the edge of things. ISO read needed there.

[Rels]

ooo read on me and Hapa is also townie. He seems as lost as me

[Rels]

voilà. I wanna reread lots of stuff with more care but I won't do it tonight as I'm pretty tired I was out drinking and my head hurts

[BlackVoid]

Hawk's reflections seem town to me. What do you think of 659? Also, read on Aubrey would be nice. I'm concerned that his laid back attitude towards the lynch might be scum. Not in a "lost" way as you and outoforder. It's more like he doesn't really care what happens at a time when most town are trying to secure a lynch we can live with.

[Rels]

Hawk's reflections seem town to me. What do you think of 659? Also, read on Aubrey would be nice. I'm concerned that his laid back attitude towards the lynch might be scum. Not in a "lost" way as you and outoforder. It's more like he doesn't really care what happens at a time when most town are trying to secure a lynch we can live with.

This post is townie. Not impossible for scum to make by any mean but it's worth town points. But catching up I didn't like his posts - will have to reread to see.
Aubrey I dunno, I townread him early. He was pushing the game forward when nobody did if I remember right

[BlackVoid]

Can you elaborate a bit more on your Cass townread? I could see some of her posts being town but that pretty much evaporated based on her play around the Hap wagon. It was really odd that she comes into the game, tunnels Hap, jumps onto the budding KidAmn wagon, jumps onto your wagon, etc. It feels like opportunistic scum creating a smoke-screen more than town trying to solve the game.

[Rels]

Can you elaborate a bit more on your Cass townread? I could see some of her posts being town but that pretty much evaporated based on her play around the Hap wagon. It was really odd that she comes into the game, tunnels Hap, jumps onto the budding KidAmn wagon, jumps onto your wagon, etc. It feels like opportunistic scum creating a smoke-screen more than town trying to solve the game.

She looks more dumb town than smoke screen scum to me. Scum usually are less volatile than that.

[Rels]

k you got me. I'm reading

[Rels]

also the number of wagons and wagon makeup tells me that no scum are on kop's wagon. anyone have any theories as to why that is?

I'd say because Kop is scum, but you're not scumreading him, so that's not going to be your answer. Are they pocketing him?

no. i honestly dont have a clue why it would be the case and it doesnt sit right -- the scum would want to be on the top two wagons, but i dont see scum being in (doomfeathers,Aubrey,Hawk)

i do see scum being in (rels,hapa) and i am absolutely 100% certain theres scum in hapa's wagon

so something is strange. i would be willing to push kops wagon if hapa makes a good (really good) showing in the near future. the "tipping point" will certainly be instructive

like this. So certain of this dumb logic. It's so weird that I feel it's more likely it's town having a certain logic than scum appearing to scumhunt

[BlackVoid]

I'm really interested in how you think she arrived at the logic in 891. That's the one that made me think "holy crap, this is scum."

[Rels]

Following say we have: saying we should stay on Hapa. Saying Kop could be a back up lynch. Then actually townreading Kop. Then voting on KidDamn and having a big post on him. Then unvoting and townreading him.
It goes on. Pretty sure she's town.

[Rels]

I'm really interested in how you think she arrived at the logic in 891. That's the one that made me think "holy crap, this is scum."

Talking about "let's try to lynch Rels, but if the lynch have resistance let's get back to Hapa" right ?
Yeah this is dumb. But what she's probably saying is that having a no-lynch is bad so if I end up not having enough votes to get lynched, Hapa should get lynched so there is no no-lynch

[BlackVoid]

Yeah, the part I don't get is why if she thinks Hap is 100% scum (which by the way is itself weird to have that much confidence), she'd even consider voting anyone other than Hap.

[Rels]

Yeah, the part I don't get is why if she thinks Hap is 100% scum (which by the way is itself weird to have that much confidence), she'd even consider voting anyone other than Hap.

Two things:
- town are way more likely to waffle than scum.
- so -his line of thought only makes Cassy more scum IF Hapa is scum with her. But given their interactions, I don't think they're ever a team. Hapa spent quite a bit of time fighting Cass, at a time where he had his good comeback; I don't think they are partners for that.

[Rels]

KidDamn's ISO is still so horrible. The dream scenario is that Hapa flips scum. Given that Hapa did his counter attack on KidDamn it's another person that is unliekly to be partner with him

[Aubrey]

Well I think it's obvious there is likely no scum connection between BlackVoid and Rels. Can we lynch tonight?

[BlackVoid]

Well, currently my reads are at Hap + Cass + someone else, possibly Aubrey as the scumteam. Cassielle replacing in with an odd confidence in a Hap scumflip but wanting to lynch Creature first actually fits in really well as partners. Then Hap and Cass have a scum theater showdown (by the way, I've read on a TeamLiquid forum that Hap likes bussing). Then you tell Hap to back off and he "re-evaluates" Cass. Cass then continues with the confident Hap push but suddenly votes KidAmn as the wagon is building. If she was so confident in Hap-scum, wouldn't she be wary of voting Hap's biggest push? KidAmn and Hap were pretty opposed to each other. Then she switches back to Hap. Then as a Rels wagon builds up, she votes you, calls Hap 100% scum and says that if anyone refuses to vote you, they are stalling. So, yeah my theory is that they are partners and tried to do a bus showdown but that Cass is terrible at making it convincing.