Star Wars Rogue One [GAME OVER]


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Post Post #3850 (ISO) » Mon Feb 27, 2017 8:05 pm

Post by mastina »

In post 3655, Heartless wrote:I'll wait for Anti's verdict on the setup, but my first impression is all the claimed specials are probably town.
That would require:
-zefiend, MoI, Nero as a scumteam (which I don't think I need to tell you why I find unlikely), OR:
-zefined, TWIE, one of Nero/MoI as a scumteam.

I'm sorry, but I simply don't see any of those three combos as being likely.
I'll do full pair analysis when I have the chance (probably not tonight), but I just really think that Molla is scum.
zefiend, Molla, and then a third (most likely one of MoI/Nero) is what makes the most sense to me.
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Post Post #3851 (ISO) » Mon Feb 27, 2017 8:06 pm

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In post 3847, mastina wrote:
In post 3643, Nero Cain wrote:but if we want to talk about unproveable claims....just look at Mastins.
Not my fault. That's what I have. I don't know what the death star plans are, what they do, what they provide, because whoever needs to die before I can get them...hasn't died. It's a huge fucking inconvenience, and there's nothing I can do about it.
What do you think of MOI finding my claim scummy that we can't confirm it but ignoring yours?
Of all tyrannies,a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

edited c.s. lewis quote b/c limit
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Post Post #3852 (ISO) » Mon Feb 27, 2017 8:08 pm

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In post 3849, mastina wrote:
In post 3645, Nero Cain wrote:Yes, Cakez did eventually overcome Zfiend, so even if we want to argue that Cakez was the counter wagon to Zefiend then there'd be scum sitting on the Cakez lynch.
In post 3096, Firebringer wrote:SirCakez [LYNCH]
PeregrineV
, Titus,
Infinity 324
,
Aj The Epic
, Zefiend,
Heartless
,
Nero Cain
that's p cute. Why is Z's name not in read if you think he's scum and why ignore Titus?
Of all tyrannies,a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

edited c.s. lewis quote b/c limit
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Post Post #3853 (ISO) » Mon Feb 27, 2017 8:08 pm

Post by Nero Cain »

*red
Of all tyrannies,a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

edited c.s. lewis quote b/c limit
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Post Post #3854 (ISO) » Mon Feb 27, 2017 8:12 pm

Post by mastina »

In post 3658, Heartless wrote:I was thinking about how that would work and I never got to a completely satisfying conclusion.
Look, I have the role. I have the most direct access to it. I know the exact wording. And even I can't figure it out. I thought that maybe my role might've been a backup, actually--that someone had the death star plans at the beginning of the game, and upon their death, I'd inherit them instead. But nobody claimed as much. There's not even a character whose death I can clearly see going, "Oh! There's the trigger!" Like, maybe a Captain Antilles, or similar role. That'd make flavor sense. But nobody has claimed that flavor, meaning that there's no clear player whose death would trigger this.

I don't have the words for the emotions that makes me feel. In my ranting to the dead thread, there's quite a few expletives mixed in, mainly directed Firebringer's way. I don't know. I couldn't figure it out. I still can't figure it out.
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Post Post #3855 (ISO) » Mon Feb 27, 2017 8:18 pm

Post by mastina »

In post 3670, Heartless wrote:there's a bit of town power here, but it's mostly concentrated on a few ppl. scum already have TWO known ways to shut it down (factional nk + vanillaizer).
I think you overvalue the importance of the scum's NK when it comes to PR balance.

I know the strength of the scum NK for GENERAL balance, but I do not think mhsmith or RadiantCowbells or Firebringer account for the basic fundamental mafia ability when it comes to other roles--basically, YOU say that the scum's nightkill is a way to shut down town power. While
technically
true, I don't see this as being a balance concern. It never crops up in any review I've ever done as far as I can remember. It simply isn't talked about.

So no. I don't think it's two ways. I think it's one gated way: a limited-shot vanillaizer.
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Post Post #3856 (ISO) » Mon Feb 27, 2017 8:24 pm

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In post 3848, ɀefiend wrote:It's a check+effect. Hardly investigative considering Peregrine's thing.
peregrine's thing?
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Post Post #3857 (ISO) » Mon Feb 27, 2017 8:26 pm

Post by Heartless »

In post 3850, mastina wrote:
In post 3655, Heartless wrote:I'll wait for Anti's verdict on the setup, but my first impression is all the claimed specials are probably town.
That would require:
-zefiend, MoI, Nero as a scumteam (which I don't think I need to tell you why I find unlikely), OR:
-zefined, TWIE, one of Nero/MoI as a scumteam.

I'm sorry, but I simply don't see any of those three combos as being likely.
I'll do full pair analysis when I have the chance (probably not tonight), but I just really think that Molla is scum.
zefiend, Molla, and then a third (most likely one of MoI/Nero) is what makes the most sense to me.
what if there's only 2 scum?
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Post Post #3858 (ISO) » Mon Feb 27, 2017 8:29 pm

Post by mastina »

In post 3693, Heartless wrote:you can't have a clusterfuck of power over a few people and then give scum TWO general counter roles, that's FUCKING NUTS.
This is true! AJ the Epic is, as a result, town. (As if there was ever any doubt.)

But what about one gated general counter role, and a second very specific situational gated counter role?
molla's role is middling to weak
Exactly!
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Post Post #3859 (ISO) » Mon Feb 27, 2017 8:32 pm

Post by mastina »

In post 3701, ɀefiend wrote:No need to convince me of anything, really. The dispersion of powers and claims makes me fairly confident about my guess that one of AJ/BB is scum. And with mastina's constant pushing on BB, it's pretty obvious who I think it is. AJ and MOI have actively engaged in vote-parking on me because I was a fairly attackable mislynch when heartless and Infinity were pressuring me hard. It's probably no coincidence that mastina constantly calls me (and other townies) scum, but avoids wagons at all costs.
mastina + MOI + AJ is where I'm at right now.
VOTE: MOI
:igmeou:
Not sure if this blatant copy of Nero is scumbuddies or just scum buddying town though.

zefiend is 100% definitely scum, period, no matter what.
The thing in question here is Nero. (And for that matter, MoI.)
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Post Post #3860 (ISO) » Mon Feb 27, 2017 8:34 pm

Post by Heartless »

In post 3855, mastina wrote:
In post 3670, Heartless wrote:there's a bit of town power here, but it's mostly concentrated on a few ppl. scum already have TWO known ways to shut it down (factional nk + vanillaizer).
I think you overvalue the importance of the scum's NK when it comes to PR balance.

I know the strength of the scum NK for GENERAL balance, but I do not think mhsmith or RadiantCowbells or Firebringer account for the basic fundamental mafia ability when it comes to other roles--basically, YOU say that the scum's nightkill is a way to shut down town power. While
technically
true, I don't see this as being a balance concern. It never crops up in any review I've ever done as far as I can remember. It simply isn't talked about.

So no. I don't think it's two ways. I think it's one gated way: a limited-shot vanillaizer.
you know, maybe you're right. maybe i'm the only one that accounts for scum nk in power levels.

but i do think there's a more general awareness among ppl now about what exactly constitutes appropriate power even though they may not have pinpointed the exact reasons we got it wrong in the past (among which, imo, IS ignoring the power of the factional kill and just treating it as power neutral). those people would include smith, RC, and firebringer. ESPECIALLY the 2 on the nrg
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Post Post #3861 (ISO) » Mon Feb 27, 2017 8:35 pm

Post by mastina »

In post 3706, Nero Cain wrote:Heartless, why do you think you are still alive?
Hmm, maybe that has to do with the fact that we have a claimed fucking jailkeeper?
A jailkeeper who, if scum, could just...not protect Heartless?
I mean. He quite literally said N3: "I forgot to protect anyone".

If AJ were scum, then scum would have killed Heartless that night.
But because AJ is town, the scum didn't know that AJ wasn't going to.
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Post Post #3862 (ISO) » Mon Feb 27, 2017 8:40 pm

Post by mastina »

In post 3733, Nero Cain wrote:
@MOI-What was Mastina's d1 case on Pine?
Pure unadulterated rage at how I can read him and others can't.
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Post Post #3863 (ISO) » Mon Feb 27, 2017 8:41 pm

Post by Heartless »

In post 3858, mastina wrote:
In post 3693, Heartless wrote:you can't have a clusterfuck of power over a few people and then give scum TWO general counter roles, that's FUCKING NUTS.
This is true! AJ the Epic is, as a result, town. (As if there was ever any doubt.)

But what about one gated general counter role, and a second very specific situational gated counter role?
molla's role is middling to weak
Exactly!
errrrrrrrrr it's a middling to weak town role

as a scum role it would be stronger

the rolestop creates a strongman/ascetic. the deflect and redirect thwart the investigative and the jailkeeper AND could take a vig kill on scum and turn it into a dead townie

there's quite a bit of swing at play there.

i guess i'm also not really willing to believe the interaction w the vig that would create. i mean... redirect + reflect would just be a total "screw you," game-wrecking type of interaction.

unless you're wanting to infuriate your players into never signing up for one of your games again, you don't include an interaction like that
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Post Post #3864 (ISO) » Mon Feb 27, 2017 8:52 pm

Post by mastina »

In post 3770, Nero Cain wrote:TTH, you know that scum pushing their buddy is a solid scum tactic and happens rather often right?
Yes and I am one of the strongest proponents on-site of just how fucking stupid that is to do when scum. Because,
In post 3767, Heartless wrote:bussing should really only be done when absolutely necessary, when there's no way you won't get away with NOT doing it. in this case, mastin probably just would've entered calling pine town. being scum and having a buddy not be scumread is a LUXURY, one that you don't just throw away. mastin knows this.
^More or less, this. Bussing is absolutely idiotic. It is playing as a survivor, not playing as scum. It is playing self-centered, rather than playing with a plan. It is playing like a blind idiot with no thought.

Bussing is a failure to run proper risk-reward. Doing a bus is low-reward: bussing is SO fucking common that you get zero towncred from having done it, and thus, there is little to be gained from it. Doing a bus is high-risk: losing a scumbuddy makes the game MUCH harder on you. ESPECIALLY when said scum is the strongest fucking role in the game. We've established that we've had a grand total of two roles flipped, with two extra roles claimed, plus the 1x-abilities of each player. That means the scumteam's power roles can't POSSIBLY be stacked. You can't have super-strong scum roles. As a result?

The Vanillaizer is basically confirmed beyond a shadow of any doubt to be the scumteam's strongest role. As a result, bussing them with the intent to lynch them on DAY FUCKING ONE is the absolute worst possible scum move. That, not even going into how this is a hydra of fucking Pine, and TheRealGin-N-Tonic. TheRealGin-N-Tonic is a rising star, including in his scumplay. Pine is fucking Pine. He got a fucking TITLE for his ability to manipulate others so consistently. The two of them are DREAMTEAM SCUMBUDDIES.

Which is why the idea I would
throw that all away
is so insulting. It's insulting to my capabilities as a scum player; I am not that amateurish. And it is insulting to my ability to read Pine; I am the fucking EXPERT at reading Pine. Like. My ability to read him transcends logic. I just fucking KNOW when he's scum. And I knew he was scum here. I didn't explain it well--but I pushed. And pushed. And pushed.
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Post Post #3865 (ISO) » Mon Feb 27, 2017 9:06 pm

Post by mastina »

Yeah, the thing about tricks is they only work once.

That's my driving scum mantra. Every fucking game is different. I never run the same strategy twice. I change things up, specifically because I know that they won't work again.

The reason Left4Dead worked well is because of two factors:
One, the huge overlap in playerlist between it and The Walking Dead--I knew I was going to be scumread, so I knew a lynch on me was inevitable, because my scumgame was fresh in everyone's minds. That game was recently enough that they knew exactly what to expect...or so they thought.
Two, because I had never pulled the stunt before. It was the first, and only, time I have done it, because I knew that it would work.

Now, people fucking know. I brag about Left4Dead constantly as being one of my elite scumgames among elite scumgames. Prior to Inorganic Chemistry, it was THE elite scumgame of elite scumgames. It is memorable. It is unique. It is a testament to my abilities--but it is also all of these things specifically because it was the first and only time I did it.

EVERYONE knows about the gambit I pulled there--everyone. Literally everyone. Because I constantly tell them about it, as a beacon of situational awareness. That game is a defining example of situational awareness: I knew going in that people would scumread me. I knew that I was going to be lynched. So I knew to call my scumbuddies scum and the town, town, so that when I did die, it would confuse the town especially since I fucking ORDERED my scumbuddies to bus me.

But let's talk about situational awareness! Coming into this game, I replaced into a slot which was pretty damn town! Pretty Princess was obviously town. There might have been one or two sentiments expressed of the contrary, but by and large, there was neutral to positive sentiment about my slot. FURTHERMORE, the last scumgame I had was Green Day--the only player here knowing of that is TellTaleHeart (a slot who was scumreading Pretty Princess anyway), which mind you is a reason Heartless (and NOT Nacho) would've been my N1 nightkill.

It's been ages since anyone here has seen me as scum, and fuck, it's been ages since *I* have played scum--in fact, Green Day was almost a solid year ago if I recall correctly. As a result, nobody knows my "no bussing" rule. Nobody knows that I would buddy and defend my scumbuddies. Nobody knows what to expect of a scumastina, so I could get away with blatantly scummy shit like protecting Pine and protecting my scumbuddies. This is what situational awareness would tell me as scum.

So the fact that I "bussed" Pine...is in fact all the proof you need that I'm not fucking scum.

Yet the fact that you're casting shade like this? Very much did not escape my eyes.
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Post Post #3866 (ISO) » Mon Feb 27, 2017 9:13 pm

Post by mastina »

In post 3808, BBmolla wrote:Oh zefiend is prob scum just for that push
And yet, you refuse to lay down a vote.
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Post Post #3867 (ISO) » Mon Feb 27, 2017 9:15 pm

Post by mastina »

In post 3815, Heartless wrote:
In post 3814, Nero Cain wrote:Lets even count PV as a scum kill b/c it was their message that framed PV.
holy
shit
And now you know why my attitude towards Nero is what it has been.
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Post Post #3868 (ISO) » Mon Feb 27, 2017 9:20 pm

Post by mastina »

In post 3825, Nero Cain wrote:how was taekwondo?
Was alright. The students both passed. I gave them feedback, as the tester.
Though it would be nice to get feedback on my feedback, something I don't actually get. Ah well.
Did some nice aggressive sparring--my instructor chided me for not going at test-level, though that was because I was looking for the student to give me something, hoping to encourage it by acting more laxed. Nothing too serious, though.
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Post Post #3869 (ISO) » Mon Feb 27, 2017 9:21 pm

Post by Nero Cain »

In post 3861, mastina wrote:
In post 3706, Nero Cain wrote:Heartless, why do you think you are still alive?
Hmm, maybe that has to do with the fact that we have a claimed fucking jailkeeper?
A jailkeeper who, if scum, could just...not protect Heartless?
I mean. He quite literally said N3: "I forgot to protect anyone".

If AJ were scum, then scum would have killed Heartless that night.
But because AJ is town, the scum didn't know that AJ wasn't going to.
I don't really see a town AJ going "oh hey, I'm going to announce publicly who I'm going to protect." And I don't buy his explanation that he's doing it to "town prs can not be on Heartless". I also have a weird gut feeling that that he specifically used the watcher role as an example when the
CLAIMED
watcher was someone that he didn't think was town. I just really think Heartless is being intentionally kept alive so they can mislynch Z with the plausible explanation that they are being kept alive b/c they are being "protected"
Of all tyrannies,a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

edited c.s. lewis quote b/c limit
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Post Post #3870 (ISO) » Mon Feb 27, 2017 9:23 pm

Post by mastina »

In post 3844, Nero Cain wrote:
In post 3842, mastina wrote:which was basically an investigative
no its not
In post 2891, ɀefiend wrote:Character special ability is a 1-shot boost to target's character special ability.
I also identify the base character special ability of my target
.
Seems awfully lot like a special ability rolecop to me! What do we call that?

Oh yeah. An investigative.
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Post Post #3871 (ISO) » Mon Feb 27, 2017 9:25 pm

Post by mastina »

In post 3846, Nero Cain wrote:
I DO!
And that can't happen why?
Aside from game balance?
Aside from suboptimal role usage?
Aside from the points Heartless raised?
Aside from the points I've already raised?
Aside from AJ being obvtown?
Aside from your own fucking action proving that AJ's ability is real and he used it in the way he said he would?
Aside from how scum have this nasty tendency to lie?

...No I guess I wouldn't have many reasons to present to you.
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Post Post #3872 (ISO) » Mon Feb 27, 2017 9:30 pm

Post by mastina »

In post 3851, Nero Cain wrote:What do you think of MOI finding my claim scummy that we can't confirm it but ignoring yours?
It's not the smoking gun you think, because MoI as town would be biased by his reads filtering in, he scumreads you and doesn't scumread me, and that would be reason enough...

...HOWEVER. However, while it's not the hard-scumtell you insist it is, I find it scummy anyway, for the WAY he went about it. But that's like. In all of his posts. So it's nothing remarkable. He's scummy. That is one reason he is scummy. It is not a defining reason he is scummy.
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Post Post #3873 (ISO) » Mon Feb 27, 2017 9:33 pm

Post by Nero Cain »

In post 3871, mastina wrote:
In post 3846, Nero Cain wrote:
I DO!
And that can't happen why?
Aside from game balance?
Aside from suboptimal role usage?
Aside from the points Heartless raised?
Aside from the points I've already raised?
Aside from AJ being obvtown?
Aside from your own fucking action proving that AJ's ability is real and he used it in the way he said he would?
Aside from how scum have this nasty tendency to lie?

...No I guess I wouldn't have many reasons to present to you.
none of these make AJ town. But its cute to see you get so worked up after I outted your team.

I'd even argue that AJ use of his jailkeeper
IS
the optimal play. Me confirming that he's a jailkeeper and used his role the way he said he is deffiantly doesn't make him town and for someone with as much as experience as you have this is extremely fake.
Of all tyrannies,a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

edited c.s. lewis quote b/c limit
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Post Post #3874 (ISO) » Mon Feb 27, 2017 9:34 pm

Post by mastina »

In post 3852, Nero Cain wrote:
In post 3849, mastina wrote:
In post 3645, Nero Cain wrote:Yes, Cakez did eventually overcome Zfiend, so even if we want to argue that Cakez was the counter wagon to Zefiend then there'd be scum sitting on the Cakez lynch.
In post 3096, Firebringer wrote:SirCakez [LYNCH]
PeregrineV
, Titus,
Infinity 324
,
Aj The Epic
, Zefiend,
Heartless
,
Nero Cain
Why is Z's name not in read if you think he's scum and why ignore Titus?
Because I colored in only known alignments. If this were from my perspective, then AJ would be colored green, rather than the blue I show him as. As for Titus, I've made it abundantly clear: I think one of you/MoI is scum.

I think the other is town.

But I am having a LOT of trouble pinning down which is which.
One is basically guaranteed to be scum.
The other is almost assuredly town.
Yet I can't discern which would be which.

I highlighted your name, however, because this was your fucking point.

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