Open 674: Duck Duck Goose [Game Over]

[Aubrey]

^^^^^^ @BV

[Aubrey]

FUCK YOU PAGE TOP

[BlackVoid]

@Hawk - I do see the possibility of a scum-Rels backing off of a town-Hap for the "I told you so" cred. My point is that it's rather unlikely for a town-Hap to be completely oblivious to Rels' posting. Hap not noticing or commenting on what Rels' push on him says about Rels' alignment, focusing only on trying to convince Rels' of his being town is concerning. He also argued to Fitz about how Rels' (and outoforder) backing off of him means the case on him is no longer valid but he never actually spends a lot of time trying to sort through Rels' alignment.

@Aubrey - My main reason for voting Hap is what I laid out in my readslist and isn't dependent on any other reads. I have been considering various possibilities though from my null/scum pool to see what interactions make sense as scum-town or scum-scum. Can you go over your reads a bit more on the rest of the playerlist? While I agree with your Hap read, I'd like to see your own reasons for voting him.

[BlackVoid]

Normally I am a bit more vocal and forceful in my reads, even with the headspace that I go about day 1. However to be frank, I'm kinda detached from this game a bit. More than normal.

Why are you detached from this game?

[BlackVoid]

Also, was the entirety of 924 directed at me or just the first part? Because I haven't suggested lynching Rels based on associatives nor am I 100% sure about my Hap scumread. Cass was the one who said both of those things.

I'd like a bit more elaboration on where you stand with regard to Rels and Hap. You are focusing on whether other people's reasons to lynch them are justified but I'm more interested in what you think of their posting by itself.

[Aubrey]

@Aubrey - My main reason for voting Hap is what I laid out in my readslist and isn't dependent on any other reads.

The Rels case seems more dependent on the association of scum Hapa overall.
The Hapa case doesn't seem dependent on any association, but rather his actions alone.

Why are you talking to me about Hapa's case not being based on dependency when I didnt say it was? Did you misunderstand something in my post?

While I agree with your Hap read, I'd like to see your own reasons for voting him.

Pretty sure I laid it out in the first paragraph in my previous post on the other page.

Can you go over your reads a bit more on the rest of the playerlist?

I'm not a fan of player reads lists unless I absolutely have to or feel the need to do so. I don't feel the need right now, and I've laid out my thoughts regarding players of interest throughout this game. If you want to know what I think about a certain player in general, ask away.

Normally I am a bit more vocal and forceful in my reads, even with the headspace that I go about day 1. However to be frank, I'm kinda detached from this game a bit. More than normal.

Why are you detached from this game?

I don't know. I think it's a mix of things.

[BlackVoid]

Which paragraph are you talking about Aubrey where you explain your Hap scumread. Mind quoting it for me?

[Aubrey]

Also, was the entirety of 924 directed at me or just the first part? Because I haven't suggested lynching Rels based on associatives nor am I 100% sure about my Hap scumread. Cass was the one who said both of those things.

The first part was kinda directed at you, and was worthwhile to everyone else in knowing how I approach day one, and where my head space is. The following was directed at everyone, but in a fashion where I was having a conversation with you. I'm fully aware, that you were not suggesting that.

I'd like a bit more elaboration on where you stand with regard to Rels and Hap. You are focusing on whether other people's reasons to lynch them are justified but I'm more interested in what you think of their posting by itself.

Again, go back to the last post I made on the other page. I've flip flopped on Hapa all day. Rels has been a slot that I haven't paid much attention towards.

[Aubrey]

It's day one. I'm in the headspace that as long as a null or scum-lean gets lynched, I'm happy. If people start trying to direct wagons on people that I feel are likely town, then that's another story

Like, this should say it all for you.

[BlackVoid]

No, it doesn't? I was asking for your reasons for voting Hap and you say that you think he's a null/scum-lean. Can you elaborate on why that is? Also, the not wanting to post a reads-list doesn't make any sense considering that you are saying you'd be okay lynching any of your null/scum reads but not townreads. Except no one has idea what those reads are. The best I can do is take guesses from your interactions with people but that's a lot more vague and prone to error than having you commit to townreads, nullreads, and scumreads.

[Aubrey]

There is only 1 thing that makes me think Hapa could be town.

Quick dumb question that I can't wrap my mind around. Why would Scum!Hapa remotely defend the counterwagon on him (Kop) way back when? If I'm scum getting my ass handed to me it seems by the town, THE LAST THING i'm going to do is remotely defend any wagon that could possibly save my life.

Like, it just doesn't make sense at all to me. I want to say he maybe town, but I'm so fucking conflicted. I also have no idea why people thought that he was articulating his own lynch.

Hapa showed no emotion early when he was pressured by rayn; and again now he's defending himself A LOT, but in the bad sense of the way. Pushing the "EVERYBODY SCUMREADS ME FOR NO R4EASON" without showing he's pissed

Hapa read robotic to me for a bit in the beginning of the game, but this mid point of Day 1 he seems pissed to me. Getting pissed is NAI, but it does lead me down the path of believing that it is not his goal to get lynched at all. All that talk about him planning his D1 lynch, and having his scum bus him, is out the door. Should he be scum, and scum are bussing him, he isn't planning it behind the scenes. It would be happening organically. Or he is town fighting for his life.

I mentioned that here.

--

Sadly, nobody else seems like they are going to get lynched beyond him and Reels, and I don't have a strong case I can articulate on anybody right now. I'm not going to vote Rels since it seems largely revolved around an associative flip from Hapa. This in turn concerns me since people are willing to lynch him over Hapa (or they prefer him, but keep Hapa open to lynch). This is something that should be discussed post flip, or he should be a lynch candidate based on his actions alone without the need (or the base of) of an associative flip.

Most of the things I seem to disagree with regarding Hapa seem to stem from Cass somewhat.

[Aubrey]

I'm not doing a in depth reads list. You can ask me about certain players and I will comment about my general thoughts on the slot/s.

[BlackVoid]

Okay but could you go ahead and list out your reads? Given that you are arguing you'd lynch any of your null/scum reads, you can see how it creates a problem reading you if I don't know what those reads are, and you could potentially decide to hop onto whatever wagon crops up with the reasoning that "this player is my null/scum reads."

I don't need an in-depth list. I'll settle for a naked reads list and I'll ask for comments on reads that interest me.

[Aubrey]

No. I told you how you can get reads from me. I'm not giving you a reads list.

--

I've also shown doubt on the Hapa read, and in my own way I'm challenging it in the above post. Why are you not bothering to remedy those shaking feelings away?

[BlackVoid]

Looked over three Hap towngames to see if I could be wrong here and nothing has given me pause. Basically, I just read through his ISO to see where he makes a case against someone and the reasons he uses:

1. Devil's Riddle Mafia - This one is on TeamLiquid. He does indeed spend the first part of D1 poking around so that's not scummy. His first case is on Geript here which basically amounted to Geript being disjointed from the flow of the game while not adding anything to the discussion which I thought was a fairly good reason to suspect him.

2. Aperture Mafia - Also on TeamLiquid, he scumreads Trefle for posting a case on someone Trefle thought was a third party. A bit nitpicky but he clearly delineates what the scum motive is for hunting for third parties.

3. Town of Whispers - This is on mafiascum. I suggest people read it as it's only an eight-post ISO. He scumreads SlySly for unnatural confidence in his three scumreads, lack of considering the Misere wagon, and lack of townie paranoia and taking in new information. Hap was wrong and SlySly was town but it still showed a lot of depth and this happened before any scumflips.

So, that's the baseline I'm working with regarding the quality of Hap's pushes and cases. Going to re-read Hap's ISO in-depth again to see how they stack up.

[BlackVoid]

No. I told you how you can get reads from me. I'm not giving you a reads list.

--

I've also shown doubt on the Hapa read, and in my own way I'm challenging it in the above post. Why are you not bothering to remedy those shaking feelings away?

I'm not going to point at each player and ask you for your read on them. If your end of day posting basically amounts to having a few townreads and being willing to lynch anyone in your null/scum pile, you should have a very good idea of who those people are and there is no reason to not share them especially given there is no chance of there being any PRs in this setup or ulterior town reasons to withhold reads.

I'm not sure if you're asking about your shaking feelings or mine. I'm reading through Hap's games to see if I still feel the same way about lynching him.

[BlackVoid]

@Aubrey:

Spoiler: In your previous towngame, you've been willing to give lists of people you'd lynch D1

So far I'd be willing to lynch these players.

LQ, Lethargy, Dave, Toto, Gamma, and Keyen.

Not in any particular order. Just people I wouldn't be completely opposed to lynching so far. To be blunt, I'd lynch anybody if it meant avoiding a no lynch.

Spoiler: In another town game, you tell someone how refusing to give reads doesn't make a lot of sense

Subject: Open 654 | Surrealism - Game over

Zach, why are you refusing to give your reads out of curiosity? I have a townie read from you based on your defense of gamma. I doubt the two of you are scum aligned. If you two were scum, I wouldn't understand Gamma's defense of Skold earlier. From that point of view I would assume your intentions Regarding that defense was town driven vs. scum driven. long story short, I think you have a strong town possibility so I'm interested in your reads. Refusing to give reads doesn't make a lot of sense.

Here, you ask another player for reads just as I asked you now (general reads, not reads on any specific player) so it follows that you think it's a reasonable request:
Subject: Open 654 | Surrealism - Game over

So how are your reads looking Gamma? I haven't really gotten a feel for who your for or against yet. Your Skold defense and short out burst regarding how the Blackstar debate shoulda ended pages ago are your two most interesting posts regarding your feelings about others. Unless I missed one of course.

I'm on my phone and don't care to go searching endlessly through pages to double check.

Would someone also define townblock please? I've seen the term thrown around a few times and I can only guess at what it means to do so.

Spoiler: Here's another reads-list from town-Aubrey

Subject: Open 658 Making Friends and Enemies | Game Over

My current player read list I have.

1) Transcend: Scum Lean?
2) Creature: Null Town Lean?
3) Burgerking: Null scum lean
4)

Aristophanes

: Null
5) BK201: Null scum lean
6) sad1492: Null town lean, but willing to lynch
7)

MariaR

Gamma: town lean
8) Aubrey
9)

MiniDeathStar

mhsmith: Null Null Town Lean
10) oddmusic: town lean
11) Secret Agent Jin: Null scum lean
12) doomfeathers: Null scum lean
13) tojam2: Null but willing to lynch (The smallest of small town leans. Smaller than the world's tiniest violin.)

If Null is before town or scum lean, then it just means its a weaker read that a flat out town/scum lean.

? means I'm a bit perplexed as to why I feel the way I do, but I do.

This list literally changes daily. Usually multiple times at that.

So, this refusal doesn't make any sense to me.

[Aubrey]

Straight up. I don't feel like doing it, and would rather engage with you rather than doing a shitty reads list. You're trying to make it sound like I'm refusing to give reads at all, and that is not the case. I'm refusing to give you a reads list that wouldn't amount to jack shit, but would rather have a conversation with you about individual players that you are interested in my thoughts on.

You wanna know X, I'll give you X if you just do Y.

[Hawk]

Aubrey I can echo some of the sentiment on Hapa. I thought Hapa's AtE was good and now that you pointed it out I don't quite wrap my head around scum!Hapa's reasons for defending Kop but maybe associative if Hapa flips scum.

If we weren't lynching Hapa who would you be scumreading and why? Independent of associatives.

[cassielle]

i just got my post all fucked up
so

basics:
my issue with BV is the misrep. ONLY the misrep.
i have talked about my reasons for voting rels /multiple times/.
i have reminded people /multiple times/ that i /publicly stated/ little confidence in the rels wagon getting off the ground.
i remained on that wagon /due to/ BV's misrep.
i did this because i wanted to see if it continued
BV stopped responding to me at all after i called him out on misrep, which indicates to me that BV is embarassed!town
because BV stopped blatantly misrepping me, im ok with doing this:

VOTE: hapahauli

i do however think it's very important to explain that these things are the case despite having said most of them over and over
because it seems to me like people may quite possibly have a distorted view of my actions and intentions in this thread, probably due -- in no small part -- to the misrep in question
so ill lay it out for you simply: ISO me. pretty much every motive and statement BV made about me there was outright fabrication, and i stated what i had to say over and over and over.
you shouldn't have trouble finding it.

[Aubrey]

@Hawk: as in the both of them being scum? I've addressed this already, why wouldn't he just push his scum buddy for the distance? Or just not say anything at all, and push elsewhere? Why outwardly defend his scum buddies slot? There is the option of them gambeling on people having the doubts I'm having, but I find that overthought and less likely. I see it as tvt or tvs. Less likely of SvS.

[Hawk]

@Hawk: as in the both of them being scum? I've addressed this already, why wouldn't he just push his scum buddy for the distance? Or just not say anything at all, and push elsewhere? Why outwardly defend his scum buddies slot? There is the option of them gambeling on people having the doubts I'm having, but I find that overthought and less likely. I see it as tvt or tvs. Less likely of SvS.

Hmmm okay yeah I guess I can see that. Was anyone pushing Kop at the time besides a few thoughts here and there that they could be scummy?

Also you didn't answer my question. Who besides Hapa do you find Objectively scummy?

What's the VC on Hapa I don't want to end the day just yet but want to know if I'm safe moving my vote for now. I really wanted Rels to come back and talk to us.

[Aubrey]

That's a hard question to answer. In a game with day talk for scum, is it really about who looks scummier? Without day talk, scum are mostly organic in play. Here, not so much. It's more mechanical.

[BlackVoid]

Straight up. I don't feel like doing it, and would rather engage with you rather than doing a shitty reads list. You're trying to make it sound like I'm refusing to give reads at all, and that is not the case. I'm refusing to give you a reads list that wouldn't amount to jack shit, but would rather have a conversation with you about individual players that you are interested in my thoughts on.

You wanna know X, I'll give you X if you just do Y.

I want to know where you stand on all the players so that I can engage you on the ones I find to be of interest.

[BlackVoid]

@Aubrey, can I have your thoughts on Kop, outoforder, Rels, Hawk, me, KidAmn, havingfitz, doomfeathers, cassielle, and Creature please?