Open 674: Duck Duck Goose [Game Over]

[BlackVoid]

All the while, she's been calling Hap 100% scum. How does anyone not see the ridiculousness of her position?

Yeah, she's active and she's contributing. But her reads make literally no sense. I'm going to read through her past games this evening but I doubt I would find a game where she calls someone 100% scum and then tries to browbeat people into voting somebody else.

[cassielle]

lip service my ass

i said if the wagon meets resistance we should hop back onto hapa, how the hell is that lip service
i said hapa is more likely to be todays lynch because the wagon has momentum and with the deadline approaching i am uncertain if the rels wagon will get momentum, how the hell is that lip service
i brought this up to see if people pushing rels wanted to risk a nolynch to push a diff slot (which lets me get reads on them), how the hell is that lipservice

i genuinely thought creature was a better lynch at first PLUS i wanted town!creature to contribute
i mostly just wanted kidamn to contribute (i.e. that was a pressure vote, not a lynchvote, and im pretty sure i said as much already... so thats misrepresentative af)
and i think rels gives us better info d2

so you tell me now how ive been using any and every opportunity to lynch someone else
considering one of those wasnt even aiming for a lynch (hell i stalled the wagon at L-2)

@kidamn: the stalling tactics i mentioned arent town stalling tactics. for example blackvoid is "stalling" technically rn but its not scumstalling so i dont care that its happening
if someone uses the tactics i outlined... well those are scummy to begin with and stalling a wagon with those tactics this close to deadline would be a scumclaim imo

[cassielle]

All the while, she's been calling Hap 100% scum. How does anyone not see the ridiculousness of her position?

Yeah, she's active and she's contributing. But her reads make literally no sense. I'm going to read through her past games this evening but I doubt I would find a game where she calls someone 100% scum and then

tries to browbeat people

into voting somebody else.

more misrep btw

only concern: hapa lynch is easier to ensure we nail today. we get less info but we have an easier time actually sticking the lynch
im normally all about "stretch the time out", but this is REALLY close to deadline, and im concerned by possible stalling tactics

if rels wagon meets resistance we should powerlynch hapa so we dont end day on a no-lynch

in other words, blackvoid literally made shit up there

[Tenshii]

Votecount 1.12

Mod Error: KidAmn is voting hapahauli when he voted Rels in 895

[L-4] Hapahauli - KidAmn, Creature, BlackVoid
[L-4] Rels - Kop, Hawk, cassielle
[L-5] KidAmn - Rels, hapahauli
[L-5] Kop - Aubrey, doomfeathers
[L-6] havingfitz - outoforder

Not voting: havingfitz

With 12 alive, a majority vote is decided with 7 players.

Deadline: (expired on 2017-03-01 23:00:00)

Deadline Extension Warning: Unless an extreme circumstance occurs, a deadline extension will not be given.

Prod: Rels has (expired on 2017-02-28 11:50:00) to post until being force-replaced.

[BlackVoid]

None of what you said makes any sense. If Hap is 100% scum, why are you voting elsewhere? The "lip service" that I'm referring to is that you're too confident Hap is scum but your votes don't show that. If any wagon picks up steam, you are there on it.

KidAmn, Fitz, and Outoforder, let's get back on the wagon and lynch Hap.

[Tenshii]

K I'm going to sleep. Gonna be in NZ over the weekend so I might be V/LA, maybe I'll have time to post, maybe not. See you the latest on Monday

...Good thing I did a quick ISO. Rels, please bold any V/LA notices that I need to see. It's easier for me to notice bold text within a bunch of text.

Rels's prod is cancelled.

[cassielle]

None of what you said makes any sense. If Hap is 100% scum, why are you voting elsewhere? The "lip service" that I'm referring to is that you're too confident Hap is scum but your votes don't show that. If any wagon picks up steam, you are there on it.

KidAmn, Fitz, and Outoforder, let's get back on the wagon and lynch Hap.

yes i was definitely 100% on the kop wagon
also i was /definitely/ pushing kidamn to the lynch despite what even he noticed as an unusual confidence in him being able to pull himself out of the hole, and saying outright that no one else should vote when he hit L-2
im "too confident" of hapa being scum but no one is doubting that slot is scum except rels and maybe outoforder -- yep, definitely too confident, no way in hell i could be so confident whatsoever

i even said (and have pointed out i said, multiple times) that i had doubts the rels wagon would get steam, but you continue to act like i was saying "NO ONE VOTE HAPA RELS IS TODAYS LYNCH", even using terms like "browbeat" and other such nonsense

like if anyone had just said "yeah i dont think rels is a good idea lets get hapa" instead of casting shade my way, id have already hopped on hapas wagon.

but your shadethrowing is noted. the massive amount of shade you magically summoned to toss at me, up to misrep and blatant lies -- that is why my vote remains on the rels wagon. you acted shifty the moment i made the push -- one of the reasons i even made it in the first place was to catch scum no.3. you are going to be my Special Friend come d2, oh yes indeedy

[BlackVoid]

@Hawk - how did you go from "Hap looks the worst of the three TL players and Rels is my backup," and saying that you are "okay with a Hap lynch, look at Rels if he's scum" to voting Rels? Then you say you are concerned that Kop is pushing Rels and that you could see Hap/Kop or Hap/Rels. Based on all of this, you should be voting Hap so I have no idea how you winded up with a Rels vote.

[havingfitz]

Incoming!!!!!!!

Spoiler: Catching up from Friday morning

Page 26

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Creature responds to a little suspicion with several "scumhunting" one liners detailing suspicions/scum reads on hapa, KidAmn, Hawk?, setting up lynches (hapa then Hawk), and Moogin. No meat to the suspicions. Lists seven townreads....KidAmn and Kop are null. Scum are hapa, Hawk and Moogin. meh.

@cassie...how did that series of Creature one-liner posts convince you he is town?

Page 27

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@cassie...this feels a little coachy. You asked Creature why he is town reading Rels and then when he can't explain why...you tell him where to look. WTF? And as you appear to suspect Rels...this is confusing.

Some good defensive observations made by hapa...

Nice Hawk post in 659.
Nice Doom post in 665.

Lot of debate on merits of talking theory zzzzzzzzz

Page 28

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@hapa...I like this post if for no other reason effort. And I agree with a lot of what you have said in it. WRT your comments towards me....Iirc I can see where the Rels and OoO meta suspicions towards you have lowered a bit. I can strike that as a cause to suspect you...but I still think the way you placed your vote on me in agreeance with Aubrey's suspicions on me came across as lazy slipping on a non-existent case...that by the time you got done elaborating on it was more based on wall post hypocrisy than suspect questions of proactive nature. o_O

Question to hapa...have you voiced any suspicions towards players that was not based in part on them suspecting you first?

Rels pimping his town read on cass. My issue with cass (up to this point in the game) is that she is coming across as a tryhard. A lot of content with much of it, in my impression anyway, coming across as instructional. It's like she is teaching a mafia class. And as a teacher is putting herself in a position to guide others the way she wants. Bad if she is scum or wrong...slightly annoying/condescending if she is town. Basically...I'm not one to give a pass based on what I think some people are townreading her for.

Page 29

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Mostly hapa, Rels and Doom debating hapa's potential guilt. I like some of Rel's early posts. He was in my head. Topic includes chat on the amount of people suspecting hapa (i.e. everyone is against me!!!!!) so on a quick look...7/11 players not named hapa have voted hapa at one point or another and we have a firm commit from at least one (cass). So hapa is definitely fighting an uphill battle regardless of what his alignment is.

Page 30

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Rels suspecting KidAmn hard this page.... hapa seems to have fallen below the sr threshold behind KidAmn, Kop and moogin.

@cassie...I was starting to answer this question and then realized I wasn't sure what you were asking. Are you effectively trying to figure out who my weakest town read is or my strongest? Because if I give who I think in my townreads is scum that would be the former whereas if you want to know who among my townreads I think is most likely to get to the end of the game (and therefore enjoy a good laugh if scum) that would be the latter. Ah…you clarify 30 posts later. If I had to guess one of my townreads was scum I would say let me flip this KidAdm Kop coin and see which side comes up. They are both a frustrating combination of posts I've liked and things I suspect (ex. the defeatist attitude and lack of posting).

Page 31

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Seems like the last page or so has been sprinkled by inane Creature posting...which apparently is a tr for cass.

cassclass is in session....what will you accept from Creature? That hapa could be pocketing him?

@cass... how do you come to the conclusion there are no scum on Kop's wagon in VC 1.9?

Placeholder - @hapa...did you answer my 771 question? (I do not think you did….)

Page 32

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I realize players are going to have different opinions on other players but I still think the Kop vote on Rels is a bit odd. Not because it's naked (which is annoying) but because Rel seems to be townread by most iirc. If I was wrong on my earlier Kop and KidAdm reads this would be a good chainsaw example.

@cass...why would you bash the Kop naked vote on Rels in this post when 3 posts later you point out that scum use such votes as smokescreens to their advantage. IOW why would you discuss the pros and cons of the Kop vote on Rels so quickly if the potential existed for scum (assuming Kop town) to swoop in and try to make something of it? It seemed like your 2nd post pulled the tablecloth out from under an opportunity to get some scum reactions. WIFOM say scum!cass wouldn't do this because she could just warn her buddies in the scum QT via daytalk (which she has mentioned several times in this game) but not sure why town!cass would.

Not a fan of KidAdm's 788... after picking up only a 3rd vote.

@Creature...every lynch has more town on it then scum. And town are more unknowing than scum so uncertainty is a concern. So why would any substantial wagon that has not reached a lynch yet be more indicative of being on scum? If hapa is town, scum would have to be pretty desperate to all join his wagon...especially if Kop is town and scum have realistic options (to avoid). And if hapa IS scum I would think the main detriment to his lynching is antsy/cautious town. And your thoughts wrt hapa could just as easily apply to the Kop wagon which reached L-3 just like hapa's has. In summary…this is a tell not derived from anything a player has done and therefore indefensible…and NAI IMO.

Page 33

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@cass...please see my comment to Creature above with regard to wagon composition and resistance. D1 pre-flip wagon analysis is LOL.

I like KidAdm's post 817.

BlackVoid appears to be a production improvement over Moogin…so that's good.

Page 34

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@BV...I think people (scum and town) both are apt to quit under pressure if they feel there is no hope. If I do not suspect someone and they rage quit it does not make me suddenly suspect them…likewise…if I do suspect someone and they rage quit it doesn't lessen my read on them. In fact I'll often use it as an reason to push my read (for suspicions PLUS the added bonus of saving the mod replacement hassle )

Page 35

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The cass Creature dynamic in this game is vexing. To list a very few…852, 844, 839, 827……..

@Aubrey wrt your "dumb question"…I started to answer this question from a scum!hapa perspective but as I typed it out the reason that initially came to mind didn't make any sense (i.e. trying to implicate a town!Kop as scum for later). Too much WIFOM for me in that question.

I'm not in line with all of BV's reads but I do like his post post 859. I wasn't that down on Moogin so I'm feeling better about this slot.

OoO is not paying attention.
@OoO...can you remind me (or actually state for the first time) why it is you scum read me? Is it still in parallel with Aubrey’s pinging sensations or is it moved on now to wall post hypocrisy? Or promising to finish something later when I’ve run out time? smh

BTW…. where is that hapa follow up you’ve been promising since last Tuesday, Thursday, night?

Page 36 and 37

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WTF is going on? How is Rels, who is v/LA I might add, suddenly gone from probably town to probably scum? He has been a tr for me since early in the day and I do not see myself voting him today (stalling alert! stalling alert!!!!!). I will admit that once I get someone in my head as a tr it takes something significant to change my mind. And nothing significant comes to mind for me wrt Rels. Short of someone providing some good dirt on him I’m good off his wagon.

Here are my reads as they currently stand.

Town leans: Doom, Hawk, BlackVoid, KidAdm + Rels and Kop (though I think an ISO is in order for them.)
TBD: Aubrey
Suspects: Creature, hapa, cassie, OoO.

If the game doesn’t generate a shitload of pages in the next 18 hours I should have my vote (and why) nlt tomorrow morning.

Also….

Mod….VC 1.12 should have KidAdm voting Rels and not hapahauli

Thanks, my bad. I'll update the previous VC and make a new one.

Also again…

Deadline looks to be ~2am EST Thursday morning

. So we still have time for a bit of sorting out.

[Tenshii]

Votecount 1.13

Mod Error: In the previous VC, KidAmn is voting hapahauli when he voted Rels in 895

[L-3] Rels - Kop, Hawk, cassielle, KidAmn
[L-5] KidAmn - Rels, hapahauli
[L-5] Hapahauli - Creature, BlackVoid
[L-5] Kop - Aubrey, doomfeathers
[L-6] havingfitz - outoforder

Not voting: havingfitz

With 12 alive, a majority vote is decided with 7 players.

Deadline: (expired on 2017-03-01 23:00:00)

[Hawk]

@Hawk - how did you go from "Hap looks the worst of the three TL players and Rels is my backup," and saying that you are "okay with a Hap lynch, look at Rels if he's scum" to voting Rels? Then you say you are concerned that Kop is pushing Rels and that you could see Hap/Kop or Hap/Rels. Based on all of this, you should be voting Hap so I have no idea how you winded up with a Rels vote.

You distinctly left off a grand portion of my sentiments there including that I feel like of the three Hapa looks the worst but is also the one being pressured most and could be BEING SETUP either for a bus or a ML. Look at how OoO and Rels initially pressure and vote Hapa then Rels backs off from one reentering post by Hapa. At first during the day I dismissed almost that entire section of the read to being meta driven TL stuff but now that you pointed out more concisely that I can see a case for Hapa that isn't meta driven I'm worried that the Meta read from Rels and subsequent back off is either setting up Hapa as a Bus or as a ML.

Like Hapa's wagon has 0 resistance, (asside from me town reading his AtE earlier.) No one is actively saying we shouldnt vote Hapa except for Hapa. That is like giant red warning signals flashing for me and I think since Hapa isn't going anywhere and we can just lynch him tomorrow even if it doesn't go anywhere applying pressure and possibly lynching associatives can put town one step closer to finding all 3 scum.

I mean say we lynch Hapa today no question to Rels motivations for saying no wait stop or Kops motivations to voting Rels instead of Hapa or anything Cass is doing or anything else. If Hapa flips town now where are we. Pushing Rels cause he called Hapa town? Pushing Cass, Creature, KidDamn and Everyone else who said Hapa is scum? oh wait that's everyone (sans kinda Rels and maybe OoO?) Yeah I'm fairly certain Hapa will flip scum but I want more traction laid down by Rels and everyone else who has any motivations for not lynching Hapa. They have to be accountable whether he flips scum (likely) or flips town (unlikely).

Like this isn't us pushing a mislynch. We probably lynch Hapa today. But we have time. We still have what 2 days to talk? And OoO still hasn't really weighed back in besides a redux back onto Fitz which doesn't sit well with me either.

Pedit: I'll respond to Fitz in a minute. I'm just worried that Rels who seems to be the most active TL member who seems to TR Hapa and I want to know why.

[cassielle]

i missed that rels was v/la
but basically the case boils down to this: repeatedly, rels puts a lot of pressure on hapa, always followed by softball questions (e.g. with very easy answers), always followed by a townread. i explained this
i also was watching for reactions and seeing how fast the wagon grew, among other things. i play a subtle town game, a lot of what i do is not strictly clear, sometimes im even actively misleading (though i always make a point of explaining myself later on).

creature can convince me of his alignment very easily. this could mean hes mislead me, except that he has very little control over his meta, so it doesnt take a whole hell of a lot for me to hard read his slot.
i trust his judgement and im confident of my read on him, so i work with him, i dont see whats wrong with that

creature is town af tbh so your reads are wrong even if you dont believe my alignment to be town (which it is)
ooo is way less likely to be scum than rels, even if i think the slot made about the scummiest move possible there

i note a lot of what you consider to be me "teaching" is answering questions other players have posed, it feels like you skimmed heavily in an effort to misrep me. i find that interesting
also i find it interesting you didnt make a single peep about BV blatantly and undeniably misrepping me, with such absurdities as "tries to browbeat people into voting somebody else" when i actively stated low confidence in sticking the lynch, etc

[BlackVoid]

@Hawk - I'm not clear about your thought process here. Walk me through it once again: you initially dismissed Rels and Outoforder's cases on Hap as being meta-driven. What does that mean exactly? Did you think they were all town, all scum, or any one or two of them were scum? How does my making a concise case against Hap make you think the TL members are either mislynching Hap or bussing? Hap is scummy by himself. My Hap case has nothing to do with Outoforder or Rels bussing him. In other words, why does me making a Hap case plant the idea in your head that the TL crowd could be mislynching Hap?

Hap's wagon has plenty of resistance. No one is outright townreading Hap but always finding reasons to vote elsewhere. First, the Kop wagon sprung up as a counterwagon. Then it was KidAmn, and now it's Rels. How do you get "zero resistance" when it's so hard to corral votes on him?

"If Hap flips town, where are we?" is something you could say to any player. What will them flipping town tell you? If you are "fairly certain Hap is scum," then you should be voting him.

[Hawk]

I wasn't going to read deeply into a case on Hapa early because OoO and Rels case on him was Meta based and I don't tend to think Meta is AI. But then you made a concise case that wasn't Meta driven so now it makes a bit more sense.

Rels backing off and so did OoO but others are still objectively scumreading Hapa. So is Rels back off Scum or town driven? We don't know.

You say there is resistance okay sure the people not voting Hapa are the ones who are resisting and we need to be on Hapa. Okay. Except when people do vote him the "resistance" don't vote him so if we can't pull votes onto him why not hunt the resistance? (Kop and Rels)

I would rather push the people who aren't voting Hapa why aren't you voting him than slap my vote on Hapa and whine and complain at others to get onto the wagon. Just me tho.

[BlackVoid]

You still haven't answered my question. What does "I don't think meta is AI" mean? That's extremely vague. Did you think Rels was town who suspected Hap, scum setting up to mislynch Hap, or scum bussing? I don't understand how you go from:

Rels and Outoforder are pushing Hap = don't think meta is alignment-indicative. Ignore.
I post a case on Hap = This is a more genuinely thought out case, Hap is almost certainly scum, vote Rels for backing off of him.

One thing I missed in your previous post. You said "

We probably lynch Hapa today. But we have time. We still have what 2 days to talk?

." Are you intending to vote Rels just to get him to respond and then move your vote back to Hap?

[Hawk]

I had a nice reply typed up then my phone fucked it all up by restarting itself for a update. So I will post this when I can get in front of a computer since I actually have a lot to say about this.

But to answer that last part BV yes I intend baring us finding some really good reasoning based of Rels response to lynch him. Move back to Hapa to end the day with that lynch.

[BlackVoid]

Okay, thanks for clarifying. That makes a ton more sense after I re-read your ISO again to see how you arrived at that. The notion of "I want to lynch X today but first I'm going to vote Y to keep them accountable" is a really odd way of scumhunting that I don't think I've encountered before but at least it's consistent with your previous thoughts. Do go ahead and say what you intended to say though. It should help me solidify my read on you.

[Creature]

All ready to lynch?

[BlackVoid]

I'm ready to lynch Hap. We just need to get the votes. Contrary to Hawk, I'd much rather flip him and then make associatives from that rather than go for the associatives first.

[Aubrey]

I haven't fully caught up reading (at Fitz post) but I don't understand why people are giving BV such shit. He sees people saying X person is most scummy to them, yet not voting them. Completely fine with him questioning this line of thinking. If I think I've found the most likely person to be scum, I tend to lynch that first over anyone else.

[BlackVoid]

@Aubrey, when you do get caught up, I'd like to hear your actual stances on potential wagons. While I obviously agree with the point you raised above, it's concerning that you haven't used that to talk about anyone's alignment and only argued it in a generic sense. Your last few posts since the point I replaced in haven't impressed me either. It doesn't seem like you are invested in making sure a lynch you want happens today and are just focusing on tangential stuff like Creature's comment on the daytalk. Stuff I expected to see but missed entirely is some sort of reaction to my replacing in and pushing for a Hap lynch, and the reactions of several other players by scumreading him and voting Rels, and actual stances on whether you think either Hap or Rels are scum and who you want to lynch today.

[Hawk]

Meta is NAI for me so when people use Meta to create cases I'm usually very suspect of them. The case in particular from OoO and Rels against Hapa was even harder to decipher because I have no experience with any of them and I didn't want to go digging around another site to even get a gleam of another players meta. So I took that with a huge grain of salt. Early on Rels and OoO seemed townish to me. OoO moreso than Rels I guess but it doesn't really matter. So when Hapa responds and is subsequently no longer scumread by OoO or Rels I find it odd and make a mental note but don't pay attention to it. Rest of the day Hapa continues to be a large target by the entire player base so I cant really ignore him but I have a hard time separating the meta case and think you know there has to be a reason Hapa looks town to OoO and Rels right? can't just be meta. Some of what he's done is objectively scummy. His AtE feels like it could come from town to me especially since he's been under a laser microscope all game long.

So when you post a nicer more concise scumread on Hapa that is objectively found I think I can get behind the idea but that dismissal still sticks in my mind and I'm trying to sort it.

So here's where I'm at. I think Hapa is scum. Cass and others have voiced that Hapa can be lynched today. Sweet don't have to worry there I can flip onto Hapa when I need to to help push the lynch through.

So now my question is why is Rels still town reading Hapa or at least not voting them. And why did both Rels and OoO let go of their case on Hapa so readily. What's the motivation. I can see how Rels could be scummy or even scum associated with Hapa.

So heres some scenarios and normally d1 I hate making lots of assumptions but I feel a need to sort this today for some reason.

If OoO's push is town motivated.
1. If Rels is scum.
a. If Hapa is town then Rels is pushing and backing off feels super weird and I'm not sure if they thought they could push a mislynch and the authentically thought that Hapa's response was good enough or not.
b. Hapa is scum then Rels is bussing first to look town and backing off to reinforce incase scumteam can save Hapa.

2. If Rels is town.
a. Hapa is town then Rels back off is warranted and meta read is fine despite looking objectively scummy or null.
b. Hapa is scum and successfully fool'd Rels but not other people.

And those are just if OoO is town. If OoO is scum (unlikely) there's a large subsection of things but the simplest solutions say there is only 1-2 scum in that trio.

My gut won't let me get rid of Hapa's AtE and frustration at the KidDamn counterbalance. But my head says Hapa is scum and Rels may potentially be a partner.

Hopefully that answers your question BV now here's something for Rels.

@Rels you are not voting Hapa. Do you still think Hapa is town? If so why? Please provide some objective based reasons even if it's not many.

[BlackVoid]

@Hawk - thanks for that explanation. How much are you considering the fact that Rels' push on Hap was one-sided and Hap never pushes back on Rels at any point into your reads? Personally, part of the reason I prefer Hap was that in a Hap-town, Rels-scum scenario, Rels would have been successfully fooling Hap all along even while launching a massive push on him. Given that Rels seems to look up to Hap (calls him a town god in 401), this seemed rather unlikely to me. I'd like to hear what you think the odds of those are compared with a scum-Hap convincing Rels to back off.

[Hawk]

I don't see why Rels thinking Hap is some God makes his relent on Hap any less or any more likely to come from scum!Rels if town!Hap.

Like if anything don't you think that If Rels is scum and Hap is town that Rels doesn't care how Hap pushes back and even if he pushes back in not so great way relenting buys him towncred. Like this.

Scum!Rels: Hap isn't playing well he's normally much better! Must be scum!
Town!Hap: "Response that is not entirely objectively towny or could be faked by scum"
Scum!Rels: Welcome to the Game Hap (unvote)

Everyone else goes wait Hap doesn't look town vote Hap. At which point Rels can eventually push back onto Hap. If Hap flips town he can be like see told you so guys. No reason to SR me.

I'd Hap is also scum then Rels can be like oops I guess he fooled me. (this I'd where I think it's unlikely)

So no I don't think it being one sided makes it more or less likely that Hap is scum. Hap might genuinely be fooled by Rels if he is town.

As well if you had a player that you thought had a very good town game and you rolled scum and he maybe just played poorly for a moment you don't think you'd set him up especially if the case is meta driven?

[Aubrey]

You're probably expecting more from me than what you're going to get today. It's day one. I'm in the headspace that as long as a null or scum-lean gets lynched, I'm happy. If people start trying to direct wagons on people that I feel are likely town, then that's another story and I'll be rather proactive against it. Normally I am a bit more vocal and forceful in my reads, even with the headspace that I go about day 1. However to be frank, I'm kinda detached from this game a bit. More than normal. That being said, I don't think it is bad enough to replace out just yet and I'm invested enough to continue commenting with my general thoughts.

--

I currently don't have significant town reads on either slot right now regarding Hapa or Rels. I do however find it silly to think Rels is scum based on association of Scum!Hapa without lynching Hapa first. Should you be wrong on Hapa's alignment, then your read on Rels can also easily be wrong. This idea of being 100% correct on a read (Hapa) makes me laugh, and the idea of lynching someone other than your strongest scum read (only to go back to that same read tomorrow regardless of the Day 1 flip) makes me laugh harder. I'm not in support of a Rels lynch, over a Hapa lynch, if the reasoning is mostly based on association with a scum!Hapa (which is what it seems to be). Those who think otherwise worry me. Especially when they keep Hapa open to lynch, but highly prefer and support the Rels lynch on association with Hapa. I'd rather see these two wagons pushed for independent reasons rather than associative reasons pre flip. To prefer the Rels lynch is just to me personally.

I flip flop with Hapa, but between the two likely lynches to occur I pick Hapa over Rels. VOTE: Hapa.