Open 674: Duck Duck Goose [Game Over]

[cassielle]

^ yes

[BlackVoid]

I think Rels is the townread you may be more likely to be wrong on. There were a few of his early posts that gave my townvibes but I think he could be trying too hard to make his reads mesh with outoforder's. For instance he pushes Hap after Outoforder pushes him and then once Hap posts a not-so-good case, the suspicion is suddenly withdrawn with a "welcome to the game Hap" and then Hap is removed from his lynch candidates entirely to be replaced with people that Hap was scumreading. He was also on the KidAmn wagon. I haven't got to where he voted yet but I'm pretty skeptical of everyone on that wagon.

[cassielle]

creature, BV giving me weird pings here

not town, not scum, but game-related

you see it too?

[Creature]

Feeling like we should leave BlackVoid alone a little to game solve incase he's town.

[Creature]

BlackVoid doesn't oppose a hapahauli lynch, right BlackVoid?

[BlackVoid]

Yeah, I'm going to vote him once I catch up and post a longer list of reads with reasons. Really need to figure out what I think of Cass before we lynch. Happy with a scumpool of five so far.

[Aubrey]

Spoiler: Ketchup

I'm beginning my catch up and re-read now, starting on page 25.

--

the below quote is in reference to Doom's Kop vote in post 613

thats thin reasoning

1 act (even if it is a consistent one) is not enough to lynchvote someone. pressurevote, ok. but. but, town could easily be in a state where theyre uneasy throwing votes around in case scum push the wagon home on a ML and theyre not confident enough to single out a read and say "this is the one". among other things

im not defending the slot, im saying your vote has poor justification. you should remedy that and build a better case imo... although kop's slot has pretty small amounts of meaningful content to read, so it might not be possible

The fact that Kop has so little of meaningful content is what is surprising to me personally. While he wasn't the most active per say in my previous run-in with him, I don't recall him being quite this laid back. I also don't like the feeling of him just defending himself rather than building or enhancing cases as well. Doom later uses the term coasting, which I agree with. I had higher expectations from him...

I think I've ben mislynched twice in all the years I've played this game. Rels and OoO haven't mislynched me ever in particular, and barely anyone actually has.

Sweet glory. On one hand, he just implied that, if he's getting lynched, he's probably scum. On the other hand, would scum be so careless as to say that, since they tend to be worried more than townies about how they're perceived. Anyone have thoughts on this?

*Resists urge to hit you upside the head*

If they have been mislynched before as town, then it is fair to say they can be mislynched again as town. This isn't something somebody should heavily read on.

Kop is coasting and hasn't placed a vote outside of RVS. It feels really off to me especially with all his rebuttals being dismissive and not pushing towards scumhunting himself. This compounded with the fact that his one actual push back against Doom earlier didn't follow up with a vote anywhere really irks me.

^

hapahauli isn't showing his potential.

I've been reading through

Kop's

filter.

I understand why people think he's scummy, and I had my own reasons for suspecting him as well. But I have two huge misgivings about his lynch:
1) Literally everyone thinks that he's suspicious. There isn't any resistance, even from people on my wagon. Mafia decided to bus him from the beginning of the game and provide no resistance? I doubt it.
2) What's his agenda? He isn't pushing anything period. There's no survival instinct. He could be pushing me pretty damn easy, but he's not. And even if you think we're both mafia, you think he'd be pushing literally any alternative to his lynch.

My feeling is that me vs. Kop is TvT, and scum are lulzing picking sides. Hence I'd rather be lynching people on the wagons rather than the wagons themselves.

...Either both Kop and Hapa are town, or one is scum in my opinion. Something tells me they aren't both scum. Hapa could easily have just pushed Kop for Distance and self preservation here, but didnt.

1. If everybody thought my buddy was scummy; either I'd keep my mouth shut and null him, or slightly scum lean them myself and vote else-where if possible. Furthermore, he hasn't been a solo leading wagon at all that I remember. (please correct me if wrong) that indicates resistance to me.

2. The bit about no survival instinct does make some sense, but he only had 2 votes on him when he last commented at this point in the game. That is not immediate danger, even if people are suspicious about the slot. I hesitate to eliminate all my suspicions. Your point is noted though.

Hapa showed no emotion early when he was pressured by rayn; and again now he's defending himself A LOT, but in the bad sense of the way. Pushing the "EVERYBODY SCUMREADS ME FOR NO R4EASON" without showing he's pissed

Hapa read robotic to me for a bit in the beginning of the game, but this mid point of Day 1 he seems pissed to me. Getting pissed is NAI, but it does lead me down the path of believing that it is not his goal to get lynched at all. All that talk about him planning his D1 lynch, and having his scum bus him, is out the door. Should he be scum, and scum are bussing him, he isn't planning it behind the scenes. It would be happening organically. Or he is town fighting for his life.

And of course any emotions and frustrations I show now are invalid because Rels already called out how "emotionless" my posting is.

You were seeming pissed earlier than that in my eyes.

hapahauli isn't showing his potential.

I've been reading through

Kop's

filter.

I understand why people think he's scummy, and I had my own reasons for suspecting him as well. But I have two huge misgivings about his lynch:
1) Literally everyone thinks that he's suspicious. There isn't any resistance, even from people on my wagon. Mafia decided to bus him from the beginning of the game and provide no resistance? I doubt it.

That doesn't make sense. Scum are likely to suspect a scummy partner while pushing for another lynch. It's the most usual answer. So in this situatoin where yuo're town, scum are suspecting him and pushing yuo. That doesnt' make him town at all.

2) What's his agenda? He isn't pushing anything period. There's no survival instinct. He could be pushing me pretty damn easy, but he's not. And even if you think we're both mafia, you think he'd be pushing literally any alternative to his lynch.

My feeling is that me vs. Kop is TvT, and scum are lulzing picking sides. Hence I'd rather be lynching people on the wagons rather than the wagons themselves.

You're wrong. He tried to do stuff. It wasn't convincing.

^ basically my thoughts again on the matter in another persons words.

KidDamn
Kop ?
Woonjin ?
Is what I imagine is the team

I seriously cannot believe that the whole scumteam are the 3 most inactive players. 1...maybe 2...that is more likely. All three? I'd bet money not.

Just one? I pick Aubrey, then. (Not that he's most likely to be scum, but that he's the most likely to both be scum and successfully pocket me.)

You've never played with me as scum...I doubt you've read the entirety of my two scum games...Where is this coming from?

--

I don't think Cass's question is applicable to me regarding pocketing. You can townread me, but if you do something that bothers me I'll come after you. I'm not swayed by those who town-read me. there are people who I'm naturally wary of though.

VOTE: Rels

This is not the vote I was expecting Kop... Why Rels??

You say between Hapa Doom and Rels. Why Rels over the other two? Give me some cases here.

^ Echo.

when Rels says stop OMGUSing and hunt and Hapa stops and like things kinda cool off it makes me pause... like... what was that... if Hapa is really town was that an attempt to pocket further? If Hapa is scum and I'm wrong does that make Rels scum? idk...

Regarding this idea of Town Hapa and Scum Rels: Why pocket a player that is kinda looking like a dead man walking?

Like I said, I don't really give a damn about this game, it's more about the three amigos having a circlejerk and apparently someone else backing off means I don't get to have a case so fuck it, do whatever.

Yeaaa. This is just a bad attitude in general. The way you're approaching this game currently doesn't make me care for your spot looking at it through a sportsmanship lens alone.

Why am I number 1?

Because you're the first in the playerlist, so the mod made your slot the slot number 01

Apologies. I saw a string of posts when I previewed and only took in "Scumpool" "01.Aubrey"

Kinda had a "

the hell I do

" moment

--

Quick dumb question that I can't wrap my mind around. Why would Scum!Hapa remotely defend the counterwagon on him (Kop) way back when? If I'm scum getting my ass handed to me it seems by the town, THE LAST THING i'm going to do is remotely defend any wagon that could possibly save my life.

Kop's Rels vote has me conflicted in a way that I can't even describe. I'm kinda all fucked up in the head right now with where I stand.

[cassielle]

refactoring reads

also probably passing out early, feel like hell today

aubrey, opinions on BV ASAP please

[Aubrey]

Nothing super strong. I remember you saying you're getting pings from them, but I didn't see anything damning. I'm not exactly looking very hard though since I don't feel as if they have a complete nor full general grasp of what's going on yet being at page 20.

[BlackVoid]

Town

Outoforder

- Doubt I even need to explain this. I don't think any player is capable of replicating the content he put forth in the first twenty odd pages when he was active. Easily my strongest read.

KidAmn

- Three main reasons: Firstly, I liked his aggressive attack on outoforder at the beginning of the game. More than that, he was unfazed by outoforder townreading him back while he attracted pressure from others like Hapahauli. His push wasn't well-received but he kept going and I think scum in this case would be more likely to hesitate and reconsider rather than brazenly push their only advocate. I don't think scum-Kid would be so offended at outoforder calling him bad town especially since he seems to be pretty new but I could see town thinking that they're being discredited and doubling down. Secondly, while he does take issue with Creature's playstyle, he also mentions that Creature's scumread on Allomancer was lazy/opportunistic which is more than a playstyle thing. I think just the fact that he a)looked over Creature's previous games and b)undercut his own argument are both decent towntells. Hapahauli missing all of this is where the bulk of my suspicion stems from. Thirdly, while I don't agree with the points KidAmn raised against Hap, I think his reaction was genuine. He misunderstood Hap's points but the way he responded makes me think he genuinely believed that Hap was misrepping him.

HavingFitz

- His stance of KidAmn as town and voting Hap is more likely to come from town which admittedly is somewhat biased by my own reads. But I think that KidAmn wagon would be a tough one for scum to pass up on. Fitz saying that Rels and Outoforder suspecting Hap is a reason to look in his direction is something I find scum tend to hesitate on because they'd look bad for sheeping. His probing on whether Rels and OutofOrder ever mislynched Hap and other questions meant to understand their group dynamics were queries I thought were very good and I had many similar ones as I was reading through the thread.

Creature

- Probably the hardest read to explain and there's a significant meta-component to it. I'm not as confident in Creature-town as in our previous game together. But I also disagree with the argument that he's bussing Hap. He's been pretty set on making sure the Hap wagon happens even as alternatives spring up so a Hap scumflip makes him extremely likely town. I'll have to re-evaluate if I'm wrong on Hap but even then, I lean town based on how involved he's been in the game. His poe mostly makes sense although there are some outliers like Hawk that I don't understand and who I think should have been a townread after those two walls.

Hawk

- Most of my townread on Hawk comes from the two introspective walls. I specifically liked the part where he pointed out the interactions between Rels and Hap in 786 which I also thought were odd when I first read them, and the part where he asked Rels about Hap in a previous post. 659 though is where I started firmly townreading Hawk. I think it would be easy for scum to have "reads" but much harder to convincingly fake not having any concrete reads and nothing about it looks fake or contrived.

Aubrey

- Things I liked were his critique of Hap's case on KidAmn, his consistently looking through the lens of what he would do as scum which scum are less comfortable with, and the way he backed off of Fitz while still being unsure. I thought his response to Kop's "buddying" comment was weak as I don't see why he wouldn't buddy now just because he didn't do so as scum in the past but I think the high level of engagement points to town here.

Doomfeathers

- I think the activity is not alignment-indicative for him but I liked 159 which shows he's doing his research and 211 is very believable since I did the same thing and came to the same conclusion that Fitz is tough to read from meta. That this came right after he started townreading Fitz and then doubting himself is even more town as it shows he's organically looking for more information to develop his read.

Null/Uncertain about

Rels

- I started off townreading Rels mostly for 91 where he asks for Doomfeather's games. I had the exact same inclination to look through a couple of his scumgames to see what he's capable of. I'm not sure I agree with his conclusion since despite being lynched D1, doom was fairly active and pushing players even as scum. I like most of his reads in 398 and his push on Hap. On reading more closely, I don't think his backing off of Hap was scummy but I'm not a fan of his vote on KidAmn. What I disliked the most about this slot I mentioned in 825 and would like answered. But overall, I think Rels is more likely town than not.

Cassielle

- Probably the most conflicted here. Her thought process is extremely difficult to follow. I don't understand the rationale behind assuming that scum are bussing Hap. As I see it, there have always been counterwagons, first on Kop, then on KidAmn. If she was so sure about Hap being scum, I have a tough time reconciling her L-2 vote on KidAmn who was Hap's biggest push. The insistence that Hap was scum but that we lynch Creature first was also really odd. But I do think her townreads on Creature and Hawk evolved organically and the Hawk read at least was based on the same post that I thought was town. I think the sheer activity and content generated by asking people to re-evaluate their town reads was good too.

Kop

- Quick look at his meta shows that this near complete lack of participation is normal for him as either alignment. I haven't seen anything that makes me solidly townread him @Kop: I have a few question I'd like answered. Can you explain your Rels vote and your comment that scum are lurking in "Rels, Hapa and Doom." If you think that's the case, why vote Rels who has no votes on him over Hap who's a more viable suspect?

Scum

Hapahauli

- My first scum ping came when he attacked KidAmn's first post, then backed off in 97. I agree with outoforder that there was nothing KidAmn said in that post that should have made Hap back off. What I think happened is that Hap thought he could make a push on KidAmn which was then immediately received very negatively by both Outoforder and Doomfeathers who townread KidAmn. It seemed like Hap wanted an excuse to back off and push elsewhere so he quoted a completely mundane post, said it made sense and unvoted. Secondly, his case on KidAmn is pretty bad. One of his arguments is basically that KidAmn is scum because he lurked while calling out lurkers. Except scum would be a heck of a lot more cautious to not do that because that would get a "so are you" response from town. But if he truly thought Creature and FEC were lurking in a scummy way, he can't just let them slip away. That reminds me of a townie (Jaack) in Mini 1843 who flew under the radar while calling out another player (Cloudkicker) for doing the same thing who incidentally winded up being scum. I went over his other argument in the KidAmn section but that's pretty bad as well and if anything points more towards KidAmn being town. Hap then scumreads HavingFitz because HavingFitz wrote a long post while criticizing outoforder for writing long posts. You've gotta kidding me. None of Hap's reads have resonated with me and they all look like cobbling together "contradictions" and "inconsistencies" without looking deeper into them.

VOTE: hapahauli

[cassielle]

i play a subtle town game, i withhold bits and pieces of the puzzle to see if the slots i suspect can fill in the blanks

the creature-bussing thing is fun to explain, a great example of my subtle townplay. basically, i know town!creature and scum!creature have a lot of overlap, but when i joined i scumread him. i scumread two slots, i read their mixed ISO, i get scum bussing vibes -- that's all legit and above-board. but also i had an ulterior motive: i wanted to nettle a disinterested town!creature into contributing and obvtowning it up for me, if he was indeed town. the results speak for themselves

the kidamn vote was to try and force him to provide content, but he ended up feeling strongly like depressed town and creature rightfully noticed the wagon makeup was FUNKY so i hopped off and (when he responded) let the subject go

if you have specific questions ill be happy to answer them (so long as im not using the withheld info still)

interestingly i think you are town now, these are well thought out and agree with my interpretation of the game thus far without outright copying anything in particular -- its a reasoned and considered but unique take on the game, basically the definition of town. i do think that scum is in your townblock as well, but im no longer certain where it would be. 2/3 aint bad and im not sure of no.3 anymore, we have at least two full days to go looking, im content with this

gonna finally put this out there: im pretty sure rels is scum if hapa is scum. watch their interactions -- rels does what appears to be a strong push on hapa but softballs all the questions and waffles back to townread in an eyeblink. theres not many other scumtells there, but that interaction is highly suspicious

[Hawk]

UNVOTE:

I need to reread and reevaluate. I like BV's effort. Solid town vibes from that read list also Hella a whole lot better than Moogin was. Hapa scumread feels more genuinely thought out then the Meta stuff OoO and Rels were feeding early game.

[cassielle]

btw the rels scumread i got is one reason i townread kop. think kop is just badtown

[doomfeathers]

4th - I don't give a damn about living any further right now here. If I do end up being the lynch, at least it gets this interminable first day over and gives people something solid to look at when I flip town. So if you're gonna do it, get it the fuck over with already.

If you're town, your needless death isn't going to help at all. If you know you're town, you should at least be trying to lynch scum. I'd suggest you replace out, but it's a little far into the game for that to be a good option. So could you maybe just finish this game you started rather than quitting?

@Cass - I've posted reads that jumped out to me as I read but full readslist will happen after I finish reading the entire thread and ISO everyone.

Won't that take a long time?

Looking through Hawk's games, I noticed that in Open 669, he voted Doom for quickly changing his vote and they were both town there. So, he should know that Doom does this as town and it's at worst null. I don't like that he uses the same reason to vote Doom yet again.

Or do you just have lots of time on your hands?

[cassielle]

4th - I don't give a damn about living any further right now here. If I do end up being the lynch, at least it gets this interminable first day over and gives people something solid to look at when I flip town. So if you're gonna do it, get it the fuck over with already.

If you're town, your needless death isn't going to help at all. If you know you're town, you should at least be trying to lynch scum. I'd suggest you replace out, but it's a little far into the game for that to be a good option. So could you maybe just finish this game you started rather than quitting?

@Cass - I've posted reads that jumped out to me as I read but full readslist will happen after I finish reading the entire thread and ISO everyone.

Won't that take a long time?

Looking through Hawk's games, I noticed that in Open 669, he voted Doom for quickly changing his vote and they were both town there. So, he should know that Doom does this as town and it's at worst null. I don't like that he uses the same reason to vote Doom yet again.

Or do you just have lots of time on your hands?

BV caught up

check above your post a bit

[cassielle]

UNVOTE:

I need to reread and reevaluate. I like BV's effort. Solid town vibes from that read list also Hella a whole lot better than Moogin was. Hapa scumread feels more genuinely thought out then the Meta stuff OoO and Rels were feeding early game.

been thinking on this

did it feel like softballing to you too? like "im scumreading you but heres some fluffy doubt and light questioning that you can knock out easily then im gonna townread you despite you not having properly earned it"?

mostly from rels, not so much from OOO

[doomfeathers]

4th - I don't give a damn about living any further right now here. If I do end up being the lynch, at least it gets this interminable first day over and gives people something solid to look at when I flip town. So if you're gonna do it, get it the fuck over with already.

If you're town, your needless death isn't going to help at all. If you know you're town, you should at least be trying to lynch scum. I'd suggest you replace out, but it's a little far into the game for that to be a good option. So could you maybe just finish this game you started rather than quitting?

@Cass - I've posted reads that jumped out to me as I read but full readslist will happen after I finish reading the entire thread and ISO everyone.

Won't that take a long time?

Looking through Hawk's games, I noticed that in Open 669, he voted Doom for quickly changing his vote and they were both town there. So, he should know that Doom does this as town and it's at worst null. I don't like that he uses the same reason to vote Doom yet again.

Or do you just have lots of time on your hands?

BV caught up

check above your post a bit

Sorry, I was still catching up myself. I tend to reply to one page at a time.

@KidAmn: I think the game's clearing up a bit. From what I've heard, you could be very helpful in solving this game. Is there any way we can make it more interesting for you?

@Cassielle and Creature: You two seem extraordinarily synchronized. Have you played with each other much before?

@Aubrey: Might not hapahauli have changed his behavior purposely after seeing it was going to get him nowhere as scum?

@Aubrey: The pocketing thing was less of a "most likely to be scum" and more "most likely to be able to get away with being scum".

I think my current vote is accomplishing nothing.

VOTE: Kop

Waiting until after D1 to form scumreads sounds to me like a poor excuse to lurk.

I need to evaluate Hawk and Rels.

[cassielle]

i was in Newbie 1769 with creature and have another game with him

im not super synchronized with him imo but i know how to read him and his obvtowning mode is extremely easy to work with -- you point at something, he spots it, bounces something back, etc. its like pingpong

[outoforder]

So cassielle:

Let me try to understand this:
You scumread Creature and you are scumreading hapa. A part of your case on Creature is based on him bussing hapa. How do you define this? I mean like what difference there is in this situation that this looks like him bussing instead of him being mafia trying to lynch a townie, or him being town thinking hapa is mafia? Another thing i am pretty puzzled with is that you are right now voting for KidAm partly because he is trying to ML a pro-town player. Just that this "pro-town" player you are talking about is one of your scumreads?

You can't have it both ways so how does any of this make any sense?

[outoforder]

Btw i still think havingfitz is scum. I went to reread his filter and what he basically did in his wall of text was this:\
- I don't like wall of texts -> writes a wall of text -> the conclusion he ends up in is "now let me continue and post my reads later".......

VOTE: havingfitz

[KidAmn]

Weeooo weeeeooo new diversion wagon detect

[KidAmn]

Also thanks for confirming you're not actually reading the game Ooo - Case has been off my wagon for several pages

[havingfitz]

Back. Will catch up asap.

Also...OoO....post 869 is terrible. What part of your "filter read" comments on me are actually alignment indicative? (hint: none).

[Creature]

Whenever I remember of this game, I get a backache.

[KidAmn]

I usually think of it as a ballache at this point tee bee haitch