Mafia 72: Peril in Panama - Game over!

[Battle Mage]

Well i never got the prod, but ah well. Its just good to still be alive and kicking and with the GF dead!

I think if nothing else this confirms the masons. Give me a chance to read through the wagons on thursday pl0x. Got exams atm, so time is pretty tight.

BM

[Albert B. Rampage]

Dude, who did you protect ?

[vollkan]

Not only do we have all these compliments of CKD's play, we also have absolutely no negative comments from vollkan about CKD. No stated suspicion, no implied suspicion. The logical conclusion would be for vollkan to list ckd on the town end of his scum list, but he didn't. I didn't catch this at first since his whole analysis post was so wishy washy and noncommital, but he pointed it out himself when he said:

11. curiouskarmadog
I have no issues here, since I find myself in agreement with him on most of the matters I look at above. 50%

This attack by you is dodgy for a number of reasons.

Firstly, you make it sound like my attitude towards CKD was unique. Let me quote some other summaries of people that run in a similar vein:

7. JordanA24
A good amount of analysis without much noise. Not necessarily a town tell in my eyes, but always a promising start. My only issue was with the dodgy contradiction. 50%.
...

11. curiouskarmadog
I have no issues here, since I find myself in agreement with him on most of the matters I look at above. 50%
...

14. Albert B. Rampage
Same thing as CKD. 0% due to claim. 50% on behaviour.

There were 3 players who I did not find scummy.

Secondly, you wonder why I did not list him (the same goes for for Jordan and Albert as well) as town. The reason is simply that whilst they were

not scummy

going by my initial read, I had seen nothing which suggested to me that they were more likely to be town. If you meta-check me, you will find that it's only in very special circumstances that I will put someone below 50%.

Thirdly, you keep calling it "wishy-washy" and/or "non-commital". We've already been over this once before. I took definite positions on each and every of the players. I even came out with a main suspect in BM. None of my suspicions were earth-shatteringly strong, that ought to be obvious, but I was fairly unambiguous in what I thought of people.

Maybe this is a matter of semantics. I take "wishy-washy" and "non-commital" to mean things like: "X might be town but could also be scum because X did...I need to think a bit more" - not taking any position at all but simply leaving the door open to flip-flop.

[Albert B. Rampage]

My case on Setael is earth-shatteringly strong.

[vollkan]

My case on Setael is earth-shatteringly strong.

My PBPA also made a strong case, which as of yet doesn't seem to have received any response.

Anyway, I am going to do another PBPA, this next one on CKD, before I consider voting for either of them. It's clear that a significant number of people find him much scummier than I did in my initial read.

[Albert B. Rampage]

Setael doesn't respond to our points because she doesn't feel she can come up with something satisfactory.

Volkan, Hitchens rocks. I'm glad you know him. Read any of his books ?

[vollkan]

Volkan, Hitchens rocks. I'm glad you know him. Read any of his books ?

I've read "God is not Great" and "The Portable Atheist", and I regularly read his column in

Slate

. I'm currently trying to find his other books, but I haven't had any luck in bookshops or libraries.

[Albert B. Rampage]

I've read the first. You are subscribed to Slate ?

[Setael]

The reason is simply that whilst they were not scummy going by my initial read,

I had seen nothing which suggested to me that they were more likely to be town

.

The part I bolded is a direct contradiction to all these statements you made:

CKD makes a good point about Unright putting words into ABR's mouth and votes…

CKD gets points for realising this.

CKD, sensibly, doesn't buy this.

Jordan points out a bogus contradiction from CKD - I call it bogus because he suggests there is some inconsistency with CKD unvoting BM and CKD asking pete d why he thinks BM is OK.

11. curiouskarmadog
I have no issues here, since I find myself in agreement with him on most of the matters I look at above. 50%

[vollkan]

The reason is simply that whilst they were not scummy going by my initial read,

I had seen nothing which suggested to me that they were more likely to be town

.

The part I bolded is a direct contradiction to all these statements you made:

CKD makes a good point about Unright putting words into ABR's mouth and votes…

CKD gets points for realising this.

CKD, sensibly, doesn't buy this.

Jordan points out a bogus contradiction from CKD - I call it bogus because he suggests there is some inconsistency with CKD unvoting BM and CKD asking pete d why he thinks BM is OK.]

11. curiouskarmadog
I have no issues here, since I find myself in agreement with him on most of the matters I look at above. 50%

I love that you cherry-pick. Let me take the entire paragraph from which you have quoted.

Secondly, you wonder why I did not list him (the same goes for for Jordan and Albert as well) as town. The reason is simply that whilst they were not scummy going by my initial read, I had seen nothing which suggested to me that they were more likely to be town. If you meta-check me, you will find that it's only in very special circumstances that I will put someone below 50%.

I don't mean to mischaracterise your position, so let me just address what I understand you to be saying:
"Vollkan finds nothing bad with CKD and expresses two occasions of agreement with CKD. Therefore, it is contradictory and suggests distancing that vollkan would place CKD at 50%"

Again, remember that I did the same thing in respect of Jordan and Albert.

I know full well that just because somebody does a few things which seem "right" to me does not in any way make them more likely to be town. Jordan (Bookitty) is proof of this point.

Nothing that CKD did was enough to make me think that he was probably pro-town. I did not suspect him, but I had seen nothing which would be

highly unlikely to come from scum

(my criteria for judging a town-tell).

[Albert B. Rampage]

I've read the first. You are subscribed to Slate ?

[vollkan]

I've read the first. You are subscribed to Slate ?

No.

Slate

is free online. You don't need to subscribe. I read it for Hitchens and it's the main way I keep up with US politics.

Also, an EBWOP:

I know full well that just because somebody does a few things which seem "right" to me does not in any way make them more likely to be town. Jordan (Bookitty) is proof of this point.

Needless to say, "Bookitty" is "Setael, but I thought I should point it out to avoid confusion.

PBPA of CKD

{Order is when viewed in isolation, Oldest First}
0: Random vote
1: More random jokiness
2: Ditto
3: Ditto
4: Questions Unright's use of the word 'townies'. Whilst not quite so bad as Jordan's vote on this point, it's still a dodgy swipe nonetheless.
5: This is something I missed in my read of Set (a consequence of reading in isolation). CKD actually DOES vote for Unright here based on the townies thing. The criticism therefore applies to both. Also questions about why Unright doesn't like random voting. I don't understand what the point of questioning about someone's view on random voting is, since plenty of people (myself included) don't think random voting helps.
6: EBWOP
7: A whole barrage of questions about the random voting thing. This is like pseudo-scum hunting, in that it seems to pressure Unright, but it adds nothing
8: Disagrees with Unright on Jordan. CKD argues Jordan was agreeing with him and accuses Unright of putting words into Albert's mouth. I looked at Albert's posts on this, and CKD is correct on this.
9: Says he restated his point in order to make sure people knew it was his
10: More of the above. Re-questions on the putting words into Albert's mouth issue
11: Acknowledges that the question was answered
12: Unvotes Unright because he isn't "feeling it". After all the questioning, it seems odd he just jumps off once it no longer looks like going anywhere.
13: Swipes at Gage for criticising game pace.
14: Wonders if there is a way to "confirm him [Gage] or his partner without a lynch?" Decides Gage's behaviour is a newb play, but thinks it is a null-tell.
15: Comments on the SA people
16: Ditto
17: Asks whether or not mandalorian believes the claim; ironic given CKD himself took no position of belief or disbelief
18: Will be on LA
19: Votes BM for voting Gage and offers his own explanation for Gage's behaviour
20: BM has unvoted, saying he was confused but does not agree with CKD's logic. CKD then says he will unvote if BM can explain why the logic is wrong.
21: BM accuses CKD of directing the cop. CKD retaliates by saying his suggestion of a cop investigation was just an alternative theory
22: Confirms BM vote
23: Points out an error by BM in his analysis of NL
24: Asks why MoS thinks BM is protown
25: Is confused by MoS's wifomy point that BM's errors suggest he is protown
26: Ditto
27: Accepts it is a nulltell and unvotes.
28: Asks why Pete doesn't have any issues with BM
29: Reiterates the above. Says his reread turned up nothing (This is a true example of someone being non-committal)
30: Notes the fact he is noted
31: Is amused by the fact BM thinks MoS is protown because he thinks BM is protown. Criticises why BM finds him scummy, this seems alright since BM doesn't explain why.
32: Asks for Richman to be prodded or replaced.
33: Notes that he isnt voting unright
34: Questions Albert's writing "asdf"
35: Asks for BM's opinion of Jordan's analysis of BM and Nekka
36: Criticises Lowell for not posting much
37: Criticises Aimee for her modding
38: Criticises Nekka for his replacing out. Asks for a deadline
39: Thanks Patrick for entering
40: Votes BM and asks for claim
41: Unvotes BM
42: Makes another swipe at BM for voting the masons. He asks this question and does not make any negative comment about Albert's suggestion to lynch BM anyway. This looks like implicit support of lynching BM, which I don't like.
43: "waiting on flavour"
44: Asks Gage why he thinks MoS is unhelpful
45: Asks who has been more helpful between Gage and MoS
46: "still waiting for flavor...or post from Mod. "
47: Will be on LA
48: Doesn't understand why people are voting BM. "any reason why those voting for him want to do the mafia work for them?" This begs the question as to why he didn't question ABR's support for lynching him anyway
49: Would prefer to lynch BM tomorrow. I really dislike it when people try and plan lynches in advance
50: Asks whether someone would prefer BM lynched that day
51: Can't get a read on the game, since all his suspects claimed
52: Vague attack on Pete D. He says "I agree with her theory, but I dont think PeteD was scummy for saying it. That said, I think what Pete D didnt say could be viewed as scummy." It's basically wishy-washy. Concludes he is at a loss and asks for thoughts
53: The hammer
54: Refuses to vote with Lowell so unvotes
55: Keeps this attack on PeteD, which I don't follow. Says he would have voted Pete if he had more votes
56: Okay, here he explains the weird PeteD thing. He says he thought Pete was scummy

"for another reason" - What reason/s?

His view seems to be that whilst Book was correct about Pete's post being a potential excuse, it wasn't scummy. Doesn't buy the case on Set.
57: Asks why ABR suspects Set
58: "well great, better jump on my wagon while you can before it looks scummy to people tomorrow. any reason?"
59: Doesn't think Set is scummy, but does recognise her jumping on the CKD wagon as self-preservation.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
My biggest problems with CKD are:
1) The Unright vote - this goes for both
2) Continued questioning for opinions despite not giving much of his own. This is a major problem here, since CKD rarely offers his own attacks.
3) The vague and contradictory Pete posts. He has explained this one, but it still doesn't make much sense. Also, I don't see what his reason for suspecting Pete is.

There are good arguments against CKD, but in comparison with the PBPA on Setael, I believe the arguments against Set are significantly more persuasive.

Thus,

Vote: Setael

[Albert B. Rampage]

Can you link me to his column ?

[Patrick]

Votecount

Setael (5) -- Albert B. Rampage, Porochaz, Mastermind of Sin, Lowell, volkan
curiouskarmadog (5) -- farside22, pete d, Dragon Phoenix, Setael, Shanba

Not voting: Battle Mage, Streeflo, curiouskarmadog
13 alive, 7 to lynch.

[vollkan]

Can you link me to his column ?

Sure.

Click here!!!!!

His most recent article (on the role of the race card in Obama's success) is at the top)

[farside22]

I agree with Volken and Albert in regards to the case on Satael however one person on her wagon I don't trust and believe is scum. I thought I would give some insight onto who I do not trust: Porochaz.
He has not said much of anything in regards to scum hunting. He states a few times that he needed to do a reading and when vote time comes around and Albert is pushing to vote BooKitty he states this:

A vote, Im not to fond of bookitty here however not near enough to lynch her, even at deadline. I feel ABR has latched on here and has on more than one occasion suggested we all feel the same way... He says Setael thinks Bookitty is town when all he said was Bookie is not the lynch for today. I dont like the Bookitty wagon so for all the good it will do

vote ABR

After someone reminds him of the mason claim we have this little jem.

shoot I forgot about that... however I am still not discounting the theory that gage panicked when under suspicion and claimed mason and ABR not wanting his scumpartner lynched needed to claim mason as well... however I am not sure as of yet... so Im downgrading unvote and fos ABR and then vote Lowell for his post.

Now he is voting against Satael. Which either he is hiding she is scum and he is trying to look good or he knows she is town and trying to save his scum buddy CKD.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Bussing is not uncommon.

[farside22]

Bussing is not uncommon.

I know it is not. I'm just uncertain if Porochaz is doing that especially with Satael comments about him. Is she the type to buss out her partner if she is going down?

[Mastermind of Sin]

She's trying to distance from him in case she goes down.

[Battle Mage]

Will post on Thursday. Math exam tomoz. Wish me Luck!

BM

[farside22]

She's trying to distance from him in case she goes down.

You seem certain she is scum andthe case against her is overwhelming. I see no reason why not to vote against her except my gut. For once I will go against my gut and go by the evidence.

unvote: vote: Satael

[Albert B. Rampage]

If I am on your scum list, man, feel free to vote me...I am not giving the game the time I should, it is not a priority atm, and I am lacking the time to give it a thorough read to actually scum hunt (most my time here seems to be in defense).

This is incredibly anti-town. If only you would do us a favor and at least vote for scum, you wouldn't appear this scummy. Well there's the post I mentioned before that you replied to, and this is incomprehensible:

Well if ABR wants it, I cant handle all the peer pressure.

vote bookitty

, actually I think your alignment will tell us a lot (looking at pete d)

I offer you...the HAMMER!!!!

This was not, in fact the hammer since the deadline had not passed yet. And then:

[quote="curiouskarmadog]

unvote

...refuse to vote with lowell not to mention his vote looks shady..however, I am sure he knows that.[/quote]

Why did you unvote and voted for Lowell before deadline ? Was there a scum partner on that wagon that you hoped would unvote, or a townie mistake ?

Whatever, your refusal to vote for Setael is unsettling.

Guys, its time to HAMMER. Hammer Setael now!!

[farside22]

Seriously we need to look into Porochaz and CKD for tomorrow.

[curiouskarmadog]

ahh screw tomorrow, lets do it today.

albert I dont see the case...but really I am sort of done with this game and lack the time..

vote curiouskarmadog

..that puts me at -1 too...so now you got your choice of hammer lynches..dont worry I am just a boring old vanilla, so you are not losing a power role or anything.

[Albert B. Rampage]

ahh screw tomorrow, lets do it today.

albert I dont see the case...but really I am sort of done with this game and lack the time..

vote curiouskarmadog

..that puts me at -1 too...so now you got your choice of hammer lynches..dont worry I am just a boring old vanilla, so you are not losing a power role or anything.

WTF are you doing. Farside unvoted you so you're at -2. Vote for Setael. NOW.