Open 674: Duck Duck Goose [Game Over]

[doomfeathers]

@fitz: Why did you ask me that, anyway?

[havingfitz]

@fitz: Why did you ask me that, anyway?

51 - This is essentially a passive aggressive dig on my part at Doom to say he doesn't need anyone's approval to ask anything. This on the heels of a game we just played where I thought he put too much credence into the opinions of other players.

[Aubrey]

quick lunch skim. Thought I'd address this quickly.

Can anyone else confirm that Aubrey tends to be widely townread regardless of alignment? If so, it would seem that the best method of reading him is PoE.

Usually I feel as if I'm pretty much townread regardless of alignment, however that is usually in games where I come in as a unknown player for reasons that I'm not going to go any deeper into. I'm just getting to the point where I'm playing with repeat people. All this being said, who gives a damn? Stop being so worried and concerned about meta and how good/capable someone is, and actually look at what they are saying and doing to come to some sort of conclusion about their alignment.

To be frank you're starting to annoy me now with how concerned you are about meta/capabilites. First Fitz, and only voting him due to being scared of being unable to read him. Now you're starting to get that way with me in having to maybe use poe. Like sheesh. Either go look at my scum and town games and cross reference them, or actually look at what I'm doing this game and decide if it comes from town or scum perspective.

The only thing that keeps you in a town-lean in my eyes is what I mentioned in the Fitz retort.

[doomfeathers]

@fitz: Why did you ask me that, anyway?

51 - This is essentially a passive aggressive dig on my part at Doom to say he doesn't need anyone's approval to ask anything. This on the heels of a game we just played where I thought he put too much credence into the opinions of other players.

But why? I was investigating OOO. Were you encouraging me to go ahead and push for an answer? I'm very sure that would have been counterproductive.

quick lunch skim. Thought I'd address this quickly.

Can anyone else confirm that Aubrey tends to be widely townread regardless of alignment? If so, it would seem that the best method of reading him is PoE.

Usually I feel as if I'm pretty much townread regardless of alignment, however that is usually in games where I come in as a unknown player for reasons that I'm not going to go any deeper into. I'm just getting to the point where I'm playing with repeat people. All this being said, who gives a damn? Stop being so worried and concerned about meta and how good/capable someone is, and actually look at what they are saying and doing to come to some sort of conclusion about their alignment.

To be frank you're starting to annoy me now with how concerned you are about meta/capabilites. First Fitz, and only voting him due to being scared of being unable to read him. Now you're starting to get that way with me in having to maybe use poe. Like sheesh. Either go look at my scum and town games and cross reference them, or actually look at what I'm doing this game and decide if it comes from town or scum perspective.

The only thing that keeps you in a town-lean in my eyes is what I mentioned in the Fitz retort.

So you're saying that those who don't know you tend to townread you regardless of alignment, but I should just go ahead and try even though I've played with you previously for only one in-game day? I guess I could go back over your games, but I try not to do that too much simply because I have other things to do.

For the record, the reason for my vote on fitz was that I had no scumreads to vote at the time. Usually, somebody posts something scummy near the beginning for me to harp about. That didn't happen so much this time.

[havingfitz]

But why? I was investigating OOO. Were you encouraging me to go ahead and push for an answer? I'm very sure that would have been counterproductive

I wasn't pushing you to continue questioning OoO on that line of questioning...I was nudging you towards the realization that you shouldn't be asking permission to ask a question later on when you felt like it. I was trying to assist your play. Being pensive is either weak town or overly cautious scum. As you were an early tr I assume it's the former.

[Aubrey]

I remember you voting him cause you couldn't read him at all, and he could fool you regardless of alignment.

[doomfeathers]

But why? I was investigating OOO. Were you encouraging me to go ahead and push for an answer? I'm very sure that would have been counterproductive

I wasn't pushing you to continue questioning OoO on that line of questioning...I was nudging you towards the realization that you shouldn't be asking permission to ask a question later on when you felt like it. I was trying to assist your play. Being pensive is either weak town or overly cautious scum. As you were an early tr I assume it's the former.

Gotcha.

I remember you voting him cause you couldn't read him at all, and he could fool you regardless of alignment.

True. It was a rather poor reason. But I didn't have a good one to vote anyone at the time, so I went with a bad one.

[Hawk]

You call Kop your second strongest read and then follow it with a list of reasons he might not be scum, one of which is his posting style with bigass walls of text catchup, while criticising me for having a weak scum-read on Creature but admitting that part of my issue could just be his posting style

Do you not see the contradiction there

KidDamn are you saying it's a contradiction because he gave case for both scum and town Kop or are you saying it's a contradiction because you think it's hypocritical line of thinking?

[Hawk]

@Doom what's your opinion on Kops catchup??

[KidAmn]

You call Kop your second strongest read and then follow it with a list of reasons he might not be scum, one of which is his posting style with bigass walls of text catchup, while criticising me for having a weak scum-read on Creature but admitting that part of my issue could just be his posting style

Do you not see the contradiction there

KidDamn are you saying it's a contradiction because he gave case for both scum and town Kop or are you saying it's a contradiction because you think it's hypocritical line of thinking?

It's hypocritical. It's saying "Kid doing this thing [giving reasons why my read on Creature might not have been the strongest] is bad" and then turning around and calling Fitz (not Kop, that was a mistype on my part) scum but following it up with "but here's a bunch of reasons my read on him isn't as strong as on Kid"

[Hawk]

Yet, again Aubrey + Kop + outoforder + Rels + doomfeathers + me isn't enough to solve the game.

Just curious why is doomfeathers consistently on your town list but other people seem to fall off and on again?

I understand Rels and OoO. I'm pretty Null on Aubrey but I'm leaning more town than scum.

[Creature]

He's Open 658ing.

[Creature]

Would you mind if we lynched hapahauli right now?

[Hawk]

Would you mind if we lynched hapahauli right now?

Not my first choice. I like Hapa's case against KidDamn. I don't buy into the meta stuff so I guess right now he's sitting Null/Town.

I don't like the way Kid reacted to the case presented. It sounds frustrated but it lashes out at things that aren't alignment indicative and reads as OMGUS.

Hapa says Kid is scummy cause he presents a case for scum and town then votes anyway despite thinking creature could be town.

Kid retorts that Hapa is hypocritical and is doing the same thing.

2 things

1. town is capable of being hypocritical (lurk town versus lurk scum pointing out that lurking is scummy) it doesn't make a great case but I can see town being that way in this case a little bit.

2. I actually don't think Hapa was being hypocritical. Hapa makes actually case for Kop to be town or scum but he's not voting Kop he's voting Kid. And Hapa didn't really give reasoning as the why Kid is town which is what Kid did when he voted Creature. so not the same case.

[Hawk]

He's Open 658ing.

More meta stuff?? Okay BRB gotta go read another game to get a read on a player this game

Seriously is that the only reason? also if I'm misunderstanding what you are saying let me know.

[doomfeathers]

@Doom what's your opinion on Kops catchup??

Spoiler: Speeding wallpost with some Jackie Chan thrown in

I remain undecided and wary of Kop. Scum can easily townread me for the reasons he has provided, and in my eyes it is hardly AI.

--

This game will seriously get a hell of a lot more interesting once some wagons form. As of right now, we are in a fog. That is in part because people are not voting or talking. Or they talk about voting and are to scared to actually commit. Personally I'm at the point where I think you, myself, and Doom need to take a step back from taking initiative, and force the rest of the town to actually begin stepping up to the plate. We've done our share of talking and hunting. Time for the others to do the same.

Yes I am aware it's easy for scum to throw out town reads. However I'm not throwing it out to appease people, I'm basing it over the overall style within this game compared to your last game. If this style of yours portrayed the one you played in 664 then I'd be wary of you.

That really doesn't satisfy Aubrey's objection. Pointing out the reasons for the read is irrelevant if Aubrey just said that scum could easily use those reasons for a townread.

Kop feels off to me. His posts haven't been the most towny for me. The post about Aubry FWIW not burning him even if it's just RVS might be a slip indicating he knows that he and Aubrey are opposed. I don't really think so. The thing about buddying bothers me too because the post doesn't read like a jest at first glance but Kop explanation kinda makes sense?

Your last bit isn't a slip, it's a random comment that shouldn't mean anything in RVS. I've said things in similar jest in previous games, like in 664 I called Spade obvious scum in my first post with a vote, Spade hadn't even posted.

That comment from a previous game means nothing. Everybody makes comments like that. Claiming that this one doesn't mean anything in particular proves nothing. Maybe it's a slip, or maybe it's not; in any case, Kop's kind of biased. It feels to me like Kop might be scum trying to draw a false parallel to equate his (previous) townie and (current) scum play; it's not strong evidence, though.

Kops's filter is horrible too.

1. Most of it is useless stuff.

But not the townie kind of useless stuff. Not the "I-dont-care-about-others" posts. No, useless-but-still-trying-to-look-useful kind.

Hey Rels, when you're around, let me know what you think of the MooginSoosy post.

What do you think of that post?

Useless question that have no follow up.

This is MafiaScum. Vote away. If you're not voting, you'll likely be viewed as hesitant scum.

I don't care. I vote when i actually am fairly certain someone is scum. If people wanna paint it as hesitant scum then they do. ^^
I see votes as "i am trying to lynch this person i think is mafia", not as "i voted for random person" or "reaction test" or whatever... It just is confusing imo. Keep it simple, that's what i like to do regarding votes. I believe that way scum have no outs from their votes, as if you vote you only vote for one reason and one reason only and you can never say "well i actually didn't think that guy was scum after all at the time".

There are no certainties of who is scum unless we have guilty or a scum claim. Votes on a wagon of someone you suspect gets far more answers than just sitting on your hands until you find someone who's willing, to put there hands up and say "hey I'm scum." Or even starting up a voting process on one of your top suspects.

Look at that buddying.

I don't really like giant walls because scum sometimes use that to scare off potential suspects.

Not being able to read someone simply because they are hard to read doest make them scum.

2. His ONE scumread is bad, he's not voting him, he's not pressuring him.

This one:

Fitz looks townie to me. This scares me, because I townread him for playing exactly the same last game. He was scum.

Also, there's nobody here who isn't a plausible wagonee, so literally any vote could be seen that way.

If you're referring to my jumpy voting, I do that at the beginning of every game. I can provide references if you wish. I find it helpful to know how people respond when I vote for them.

Pedit: Okay, then. That's been the case in the past sometimes, now that I think about it. He'll need to get involved soon to avoid the prod anyway.

VOTE: havingfitz

Your vote doesn't make any sense. Why would you say he looks townie, but then vote for him a few posts after. I understand you said that he was like that in the previous game but turned out to be scum, so you have paranoia that it could be another turn out like that, but is that the only reason your suspecting him?

Because in reality, your vote doesn't have a case or is backed up with any questions towards fitz to answer too. It feels to me that you were questioned about your previous vote on a needless slot right now, to someone that could appear needing pressure. And that is backed up by you asking Aubrey for her thoughts on Fitz, as if your trying to push Aubrey into Fitz direction.

First, this reasonning doesn't make anyone scum. Town are way more likely to flip flop their read on someone than scum. The inquisitive tone in the last paragraph is also not in phase with Kop's actions: he's not voting doom, he's not talking to him even though he's STILL HERE when doom comes back.
This post is after he explained why he scumread doom; after he agreed with Aubrey that doom was scummy; and after doom came back to the thread. But he doesn't do anything with him and leave the thread.

--

Yeah. Probably scum.

Your first comment about not following it up, apparently this phrase wasn't towards me and wouldn't indulge in this information until the person he aimed it at, responded. From what I remember of my post towards that.

Second comment about Doom, I didn't scum read Doom, nor did I say that I scum read doom. What's

this post

got to do with it? That says nothing about me scum reading Doom. I didn't agree about his vote and how he portrayed it, it just didn't make sense, however I haven't revisited that section yet and will do so. [/quote]
So he's got possible scum evidence against me, but hasn't either voted me or voted someone else whom he considers a stronger scumread--and this after, as someone pointed out, scolding people for not voting suspects in post 125.



(Yeah, I think that's big enough to make up for my lack of other images in this thread.)

On the minus side she had a a pretty bad re-entrance to the thread. She even acknolodged it herself, but acknowledging it doesn't make it any less scummier. She declared three tentative townreads on OOO (rayn in the above posts, sorry, will try to call him OOO) Creature on I, all of 3 we townread each other, probably some easy reads to copy for a scum when reading the thread and thinking about how to blend in.
Then she has to be forced to give a scumread, and it's lackluster.

On the plus side, after that she shows some change on these townreads. Like she does'tn know what to do. it feels town.

On another minus side she's focusing a LOT of these 4 players: doom OOO creature and I. Like she's kinda ignoring what's happening on the side. And it's a scum trait usually.

We agree on something. And that is one of the reasons I picked out, he/she was pressed into giving reads and those 3 were picked out fairly quickly because at the time, that was where most people were at. It's reasonable to do that from a Scums POV because it appeals to people and doesn't create ripples.

Still no vote, though.

@Kop: For the record, I never said I thought havingfitz was town. I said he appeared townish to me in the same way that he appeared townish to me last game, when he was scum.

Yes I agree you never said he was town, I didn't say you did town read him. I made the point why would you vote someone purely looking townie, that was my point. Yes it may be paranoia kicking in because of the previous game you and fitz played before, but your vote didn't contain anything for fitz to answer too, to go along with the weird stance you took before that vote.

Needed vote. Already explained.

You misunderstand me Kop. I'm personally aware of the difference between my town and scum play. You noticing it however doesn't make me think you are town alone though. I don't see it as AI exactly. That is why I disagree with the town lean given to you, because that is what OOO is baseing it on.

Obviously you would be aware of your styles of play, other people won't be so.

That still doesn't explain how it's AI.

Overall, I'd probably vote this. Oh, wait, I already am.

[doomfeathers]

Would you mind if we lynched hapahauli right now?

Not my first choice. I like Hapa's case against KidDamn. I don't buy into the meta stuff so I guess right now he's sitting Null/Town.

I don't like the way Kid reacted to the case presented. It sounds frustrated but it lashes out at things that aren't alignment indicative and reads as OMGUS.

Hapa says Kid is scummy cause he presents a case for scum and town then votes anyway despite thinking creature could be town.

Kid retorts that Hapa is hypocritical and is doing the same thing.

2 things

1. town is capable of being hypocritical (lurk town versus lurk scum pointing out that lurking is scummy) it doesn't make a great case but I can see town being that way in this case a little bit.

2. I actually don't think Hapa was being hypocritical. Hapa makes actually case for Kop to be town or scum but he's not voting Kop he's voting Kid. And Hapa didn't really give reasoning as the why Kid is town which is what Kid did when he voted Creature. so not the same case.

Good point. Maybe I was wrong about that.

[doomfeathers]

He's Open 658ing.

More meta stuff?? Okay BRB gotta go read another game to get a read on a player this game

Seriously is that the only reason? also if I'm misunderstanding what you are saying let me know.

Open 658 was a game I played in which both Aubrey and Creature also played. I was NKed N1. Havingfitz later replaced in and won as scum with BK201 and Gamma Emerald; I don't believe I ever actually interacted with him that game. Unfortunately, day 1 lasted for 42 pages.

[hapahauli]

@ Fitz

hapa is suspect because 1) a town read for me (Rel) and a TBD for me but generally townread OoO both appear extremely confident in their suspicions of hapa. For more gut I would say than solid fact but familiarity does deserve consideration. I also really dislike the way hapa eased on to my wagon in support of the Aubrey (crap) suspicions towards me and then seemed to backtrack on the crux of Aubrey's case (my questions) and say it wasn't any particular questions more so than that multiple people had issue with them. Oh...and that I ironically warned OoO against wall posting in my wall post.

Rels and OoO definitely are NOT confident in their suspicion of me. Rels recently unvoted me. OoO mentioned that my posting is probably town unless I'm being super misleading about something in my case.

There's not a lot of substance for reading me as mafia here other than that I'm suspicious of you.

[hapahauli]

Also, I don't think people realize just how damning the evidence is against KidAmn.

KidAmn doesn't give a shit about voting someone for non alignment indicative reasons, and that's a glaring mafia trait. It does not make sense from a town perspective to:
a) Point out reasons why someone could be mafia and anti-town.
b) Call those same reasons non-alignment indicative
c) Vote a player based on those very non-alignment indicative reasons.

Townies want to lynch mafia. Mafia want to make excuses to lynch townies. KidAmn clearly falls in the latter category here.

[hapahauli]

I don't care much if people call me mafia. I DO care when people aren't reading the goddamn thread enough to see what's pretty egregious mafia mentality by KidAmn.

[doomfeathers]

I'm reading it. I'm just not commenting at the moment. I think the case on Kop is stronger.

[Creature]

I was NKed N1.

Huh no

[KidAmn]

He's Open 658ing.

More meta stuff?? Okay BRB gotta go read another game to get a read on a player this game

Seriously is that the only reason? also if I'm misunderstanding what you are saying let me know.

Open 658 was a game I played in which both Aubrey and Creature also played. I was NKed N1. Havingfitz later replaced in and won as scum with BK201 and Gamma Emerald; I don't believe I ever actually interacted with him that game. Unfortunately, day 1 lasted for 42 pages.

12) Flubbernugget

doomfeathers

lynched day 5 - Vanilla Townie

So you replaced out and your slot died D5 to a lynch. Why exactly would you lie about that?

Not gonna lie my enthusiasm for this game has been fucking tanked by the amount of other games and off-site games and "oh-ho-ho I know what he does because of playing on another site and here is a wall of text about it".

[Aubrey]

Also, I don't think people realize just how damning the evidence is against KidAmn.

KidAmn doesn't give a shit about voting someone for non alignment indicative reasons, and that's a glaring mafia trait. It does not make sense from a town perspective to:
a) Point out reasons why someone could be mafia and anti-town.
b) Call those same reasons non-alignment indicative
c) Vote a player based on those very non-alignment indicative reasons.

Townies want to lynch mafia. Mafia want to make excuses to lynch townies. KidAmn clearly falls in the latter category here.

I remember him attempting to push Creature at one point. He basically said, "

your doing X which is scummy, but it could also be your play style

." Then I guess he said something along the lines of he'd be willing to vote him or something. Whatever. What was important that caught my eye here was; if he were scum wanting to push an easy slot, then why would he even remotely weaken his own argument against creature? I'd push that shit hard (ignoring his meta) and just keep bitching about how it isnt all that proactive for town blah blah blah.

I think he is town, who didn't know where to really put his vote at the time, and was just talking out loud. I also think you are exploiting an easy push here. Whether this is scum or townie blinded by his own head I have yet to discern (and honestly I still need to take a deeper re-read of what all was talked about yesterday and your case). I do know if you are still alive and both Fitz and Kid end up dead as town, You're going to be a solid number 1 target of interest for me.

Just blasting out my thoughts.