Mini 545 - The Final Stand Mafia - Dramatic Finish!

[Trebis]

It's probably because he doesn't want to lynch his scumbuddy Trebis.

You must be confused about something. Khelvaster had his vote on Shaka before he unvoted.

[Glork]

Why exactly did you unvote, OGMY?

OGMY is more likely to be a typo of

O

h

G

od

M

y

L

ife than "Khelvaster." OGML unvoted you.


But hey. Thanks for playin'.

[Trebis]

Whoops. I read the quote at the top and assumed the question at the bottom was for Khelvaster. My bad.

[Khelvaster]

Bah, I get y'all's point. I misinterpreted what a "pressure vote" was.

Unvote

The misinterpretation doesn't change the fact that it was a reach. Unless it wasn't a reach. Do you think it wasn't?


Why exactly did you unvote, OGMY?

If someone were to push for a claim straight out of random voting, you wouldn't think it was a reach to vote for him? I thought he was pushing for me to claim, so I voted him posthaste thinking he was misplaying scum this game. Given what I thought at the time, I don't think it was a reach to vote him.

I don't know what OGMY means, but here's why I unvoted him: I was convinced that he hadn't been pushing for a claim. I already said what I thought "pressure vote" meant. If you were using my definition, you'd have gone to lynch him. It was a misunderstanding. The misunderstanding was rectified, so I unvoted.

[Khelvaster]

Oh...that's what OGMY was meant to mean. It was a corrupted OGML...I just noticed that post.

[shaka!!]

Bah, I get y'all's point. I misinterpreted what a "pressure vote" was.

Unvote

The misinterpretation doesn't change the fact that it was a reach. Unless it wasn't a reach. Do you think it wasn't?


Why exactly did you unvote, OGMY?

If someone were to push for a claim straight out of random voting, you wouldn't think it was a reach to vote for him? I thought he was pushing for me to claim, so I voted him posthaste thinking he was misplaying scum this game. Given what I thought at the time, I don't think it was a reach to vote him.

For his understanding of what a pressure vote was his reactions seems reasonable.

I was more interested in how everyone else would react towards the vote rather than Khel, how ever I didn't get to see much.

How ever I did find it odd how everyone seemed to question why Khel had assumed I was role fishing, people use pressure a lot when trying to get someone to claim, I think it would be highly likely that one or two scum are hiding with the townies how had questioned the vote.

This may be of use later on in the game.

[shaka!!]

I say how ever too much ):

[Mizzy]

Bah, I get y'all's point. I misinterpreted what a "pressure vote" was.

Unvote

The misinterpretation doesn't change the fact that it was a reach. Unless it wasn't a reach. Do you think it wasn't?


Why exactly did you unvote, OGMY?

If someone were to push for a claim straight out of random voting, you wouldn't think it was a reach to vote for him? I thought he was pushing for me to claim, so I voted him posthaste thinking he was misplaying scum this game. Given what I thought at the time, I don't think it was a reach to vote him.

For his understanding of what a pressure vote was his reactions seems reasonable.

I was more interested in how everyone else would react towards the vote rather than Khel, how ever I didn't get to see much.

How ever I did find it odd how everyone seemed to question why Khel had assumed I was role fishing, people use pressure a lot when trying to get someone to claim, I think it would be highly likely that one or two scum are hiding with the townies how had questioned the vote.

This may be of use later on in the game.

He was under the assumption that pressure votes are only used to get role claims...or so he says.

[Glork]

I fail to see what he would have gained by making up that opinion.


Do you think he may have been lying about being under said assumption, Mizzy? Why or why not?

[Mizzy]

I fail to see what he would have gained by making up that opinion.


Do you think he may have been lying about being under said assumption, Mizzy? Why or why not?

Honestly, I'm not sure...not enough evidence. I'm inclined to believe him because I lack evidence that proves he lied. I'm waiting to see what happens later :3

[RetroDucts]

Sorry about the OhGodMyLife typo. :D

Pressure vote can mean a lot more than pressing for a role claim, and you've been reacting poorly under the pressure so far.

I'd like OGM

L

to tell us more about how Khelvaster had been reacting poorly and what he thinks that means. What

is

a poor reaction? This post comes across to me as if to say Khelv's posts have been consistently unreasonable and badly composed or something and I can't say I agree with that. There's also that other question from my last post.


Khelvaster, before shaka voted for you, if I had said, "Hey, I'm scum. Tell me your role," would you have believed me?

How ever I did find it odd how everyone seemed to question why Khel had assumed I was role fishing, people use pressure a lot when trying to get someone to claim, I think it would be highly likely that one or two scum are hiding with the townies how had questioned the vote.

? How does this occur to you? In his previous post he noted that he thought you were even town then votes for you, apparently non-randomly, saying you're rolefishing. What's so odd about questioning this?


Mizzy, you seem to be suggesting what the motivations behind our actions are quite a bit. Don't you think it would be more interesting to wait and see what the player to whom a question was directed had to say themselves?

[Mizzy]

Mizzy, you seem to be suggesting what the motivations behind our actions are quite a bit. Don't you think it would be more interesting to wait and see what the player to whom a question was directed had to say themselves?

I was asked, so, I thought about it and answered. Plus, did you notice the part where I was all:

I'm waiting to see what happens later :3

[RetroDucts]

I was talking about other times. Specifically, post 32 when I asked JiveMachine a question, post 64 where you provide a reason for shaka's vote and post 70 when you explain Glorks vote.

[Mizzy]

I was talking about other times. Specifically, post 32 when I asked JiveMachine a question, post 64 where you provide a reason for shaka's vote and post 70 when you explain Glorks vote.

I give my opinions in an attempt to help the game progress...would you prefer I lurk and give no actual content to the game?

[death_omen]

Mod Update: TheJiveMachine and Death's Door Prodded. Next Vote Count scheduled for 24 hours.

[TheJiveMachine]

Well, I'll at least get my vote off myself.

Unvote

No one seems to be sticking out. Maybe Khel.

Do you think he may have been lying about being under said assumption, Mizzy? Why or why not?

Glork, did you ask this question because you are doubtful of Khelvaster's story?

I, personally, think that that would be a rather absurd thing to make up, but I don't think it's outside the realm of possibility.

[OhGodMyLife]

I unvoted because I didn't want to be part of a bandwagon yet. Seems a little premature to me.

[Glork]

No, I asked the question because I was surprised that Mizzy brought it up as a possibility. That does not *at all* feel like something somebody would just make up. I don't think he could have swung a lynch based on it, and I don't think it was a "stir the pot" move that scum would make.


Right now, I'd put Khel, Mizzy, and RD in my tentative "protown" list. No real good scum candidate has stood out yet.

[Khelvaster]

Khelvaster, before shaka voted for you, if I had said, "Hey, I'm scum. Tell me your role," would you have believed me?

Yes, I would have. I can give you a precedent that I acted exactly like this in another game I played in. Go to

http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... &&start=58

and look at the top two posts on that page. Those are from Kaleidoscope, the person who claimed GF and who I immediately voted for. I obviously did believe him, and he turned out to be GF.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On a much more relevant note,

FoS: RetroDucts

for trying to set me up like that. He was equivicating what Shaka did to an actual claim. As I was typing this, I realized he could use my words against me because Shaka didn't actually claim; he just did something extremely scummy in my eyes.

[RetroDucts]

I give my opinions in an attempt to help the game progress...would you prefer I lurk and give no actual content to the game?

Not at all! I just think that people answering questions, or suggesting answers, for other players diminishes the questions' effectiveness. We can't be sure how this may influence the answer we would have received. I try to avoid answering or responding to anything that wasn't directed at me so that we can receive the most genuine response to every post. This doesn't stop us from posting content.

I unvoted because I didn't want to be part of a bandwagon yet. Seems a little premature to me.

Trebis was at L-5 and I think this game's 'maturing' as we speak. Did Khelv being at L-4 worry you at all? He's at L-5 now, is that wagon premature as well? Also, can you respond to what I wrote in post 85?

On a much more relevant note,
FoS: RetroDucts for trying to set me up like that. He was equivicating what Shaka did to an actual claim. As I was typing this, I realized he could use my words against me because Shaka didn't actually claim; he just did something extremely scummy in my eyes.

So you think he could have been

town

trying to get a role claim out of you?

Thanks for the meta-example, but I see no reason why you can't have acted similarly as town or scum. And there is a big difference between your example and this game.

Honestly, the thing bugging me most about you is the fact that you actually believed that Shaka was rolefishing on page 2. The example with Kaleidoscope was on page 30 of that game. I can appreciate you giving no slack to anti-town or scummy actions, but the whole random stage is basically made of actions that at any other time in the game would be incredibly suspicious anyway. What is the real difference between random voting and, heh, random role-fishing in the early stage of the game?

[OhGodMyLife]

RD, sorry I missed your first question, I was only scanning the thread before, now I've actually got a little time. I think Khelvaster's reaction was poor just because it was so jumpy. The only reason to come to such an early conclusion about rolefishing in my eyes is if you've got something making you think people are going to be coming at you. Which isn't specifically pro- or anti-town, just notable.

As to your second point, it was Trebis who I was voting for, not Khelvaster, and its not that I thought he was in any real danger, it was the way in which Glork had voted that made me unvote. He made what seemed like an offhand comment about getting a claim out of it, but when asked about said comment, said it wasn't so offhand after all.

[Khelvaster]

I'm going to respond to Retroducts primarily with quotes, just so you can all see how badly he is twisting my words, using perverse, leading arguments, and generally making himself out to be a complete scum. I will not remove my vote from Retro without immense persuasion from multiple other people in this town. Read the below statements.

On a much more relevant note,
FoS: RetroDucts for trying to set me up like that. He was equivicating what Shaka did to an actual claim. As I was typing this, I realized he could use my words against me because Shaka didn't actually claim; he just did something extremely scummy in my eyes.

So you think he could have been

town

trying to get a role claim out of you?

Khelvaster, before shaka voted for you, if I had said, "Hey, I'm scum. Tell me your role," would you have believed me?

He was equivicating what Shaka did to an actual claim.

[quote="me"On second thought, Vote: Shaka for blatant rolefishing.[/quote]

Bah, I get y'all's point. I misinterpreted what a "pressure vote" was.
Unvote

How this could possibly be construed as me thinking, at any point, that Shaka was town trying to get a claim from me is beyond me. It's common sense not to vote for people you think are town. People who want claims for no reason are almost always scum. I vote for people I think are scum. This logic follows common mafia logic. Therefore, I would not vote for someone I thought was town and wanted me to claim for no good reason (the definition of rolefishing).

So, in short, my answer is no, and shame on you for trying to imply anything else.

Thanks for the meta-example, but I see no reason why you can't have acted similarly as town or scum. And there is a big difference between your example and this game.

Hmmm, what does he look like he's doing? Exactly what I predicted.

He was equivicating what Shaka did to an actual claim. As I was typing this, I realized he could use my words against me because Shaka didn't actually claim

This was most definitely in answer to the question asking me whether I would vote him if he claimed. You can tell because I posted this above

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On a much more relevant note,
FoS: RetroDucts for trying to set me up like that.

Again, no way this can be construed as anything other than to seperate my hypothetical answer from the game.

Honestly, the thing bugging me most about you is the fact that you actually believed that Shaka was rolefishing on page 2. The example with Kaleidoscope was on page 30 of that game.

This really shouldn't matter. A scumclaim is a scumclaim.

I can appreciate you giving no slack to anti-town or scummy actions, but the whole random stage is basically made of actions that at any other time in the game would be incredibly suspicious anyway.

Only some. If I went out saying, "I am scum," in a serious style, during every random vote stage of every game, I would be policy lynched for WIFOM, I'm sure. I know I certainly would policy lynch someone who said that.

What is the real difference between random voting and, heh, random role-fishing in the early stage of the game?

The difference is that random role-fishing is done in a manner too serious for random voting. My perspective at the time of voting him was that he actually intended to pressure vote me, as he posted. He could have gotten away with the "shits and giggles" post, but intent to pressure vote so early was, in my mind, an almost certain scumtell. I've already quoted myself and explained this multiple times-- I thought it was a massive, almost surely accurate scum indicator. People don't seriously try to rolefish early in the game. Random voting is a normal part of the game, so that wasn't an indicator.


In short, RetroDucts went around in a very sleazy fashion to try and trick me through rhetoric into making myself look scummy. I saw through this, and I am going to see him lynched today. It is absolutely ridiculous to see scum try and get away with such overt manipulation.

Vote: Retroducts

[RetroDucts]

How this could possibly be construed as me thinking, at any point, that Shaka was town trying to get a claim from me is beyond me. It's common sense not to vote for people you think are town.

The point I'm making is that you criticised me for equivocating what Shaka did to a claim, when this

seems

to be to be exactly what you were thinking anyway. I wasn't trying to equivocate - I thought it was clear what I was getting at. From what I've read, you

did

see the 'pressure vote', which in your mind was intended to make you claim, as a clear scum-tell, i.e. you thought it made Shaka scum.

The way I read what I quoted from you in my last post was that you thought Shaka did something scummy - rolefish - but wasn't necessarily scum:

He was equivicating what Shaka did to an actual claim. As I was typing this, I realized he could use my words against me because

Shaka didn't actually claim;

he just did something extremely scummy in my eyes.

So my question became, why would you say he was blatantly rolefishing, something only scum would do, if you thought he could be town?

So, in short, my answer is no, and shame on you for trying to imply anything else.

I have no shame since I tried to imply nothing. I'm sorry if me trying to come to an understanding of the posts in this game bothers you. That said, I think I understand what you meant with your last post now.

Thanks for the meta-example, but I see no reason why you can't have acted similarly as town or scum. And there is a big difference between your example and this game.

Hmmm, what does he look like he's doing? Exactly what I predicted.

He was equivicating what Shaka did to an actual claim. As I was typing this, I realized he could use my words against me because Shaka didn't actually claim

This isn't true at all. And unless it was a genuine misread, it's a strawman. I admittedly believed you viewed a 'pressure vote' as being as good as a claim, so I thought you saw Kaleidoscope's and Shaka's posts in a similar light. I never said that Shaka's posts

wasn't

a scum claim while Kaleidoscope's was. The difference I pointed out was that the posts in question came at significantly different stages of the game.

To refer to your 'a scumclaim is a scumclaim' line - the difference of timing is notable because the weight of such statements and, more importantly, what can be discerned from them are much less when they appear earlier in the game. So, no, I don't agree with your simplification.

Again, no way this can be construed as anything other than to seperate my hypothetical answer from the game.

I don't understand what you're saying here.

If I went out saying, "I am scum," in a serious style, during every random vote stage of every game, I would be policy lynched for WIFOM, I'm sure. I know I certainly would policy lynch someone who said that.

Just so you understand my opinion: claiming scum during the random stage doesn't make one scum. I wouldn't vote for anyone based on that alone, no way. Policy lynches such as this are generally very bad play.

The difference is that random role-fishing is done in a manner too serious for random voting.

Well, here, I disagree, and this is where my issue with you is. So far as I'm concerned, anything goes in the random stage. I think taking anything said in the random stage too seriously is likely as much an over-reaction whether it be a random vote or a random role-claim. Everything is worth noting, yes, but

I find it hard to believe that anyone would think they've found scum because of the random stage alone

, which is

exactly

what you did, regardless of misunderstandings or misinterpretations.

In short, RetroDucts went around in a very sleazy fashion to try and trick me through rhetoric into making myself look scummy. I saw through this, and I am going to see him lynched today. It is absolutely ridiculous to see scum try and get away with such overt manipulation.

Vote: Retroducts

I think you're quite capable of explaining yourself so asked the questions I had to get a better read of you, as I have been of other players in this game. That you saw this as an attempt by me to 'trick' you makes me wonder why you would be so unsettled by my questions to see them as something more than what they were. You received no special treatment.

[RetroDucts]

As to your second point, it was Trebis who I was voting for, not Khelvaster, and its not that I thought he was in any real danger, it was the way in which Glork had voted that made me unvote. He made what seemed like an offhand comment about getting a claim out of it, but when asked about said comment, said it wasn't so offhand after all.

I know it was Trebis you had your vote on. What stood out to me was your caution at a 2-vote wagon on Trebis while Khelvaster had 3 votes on him before Glork changed his vote. And I really don't see how Glork's vote could make you unvote. Can you elaborate?

[Khelvaster]

Retroducts, I am unsettled by your definition of a random vote stage.

From my experiences, anyone seriously trying to cause a roleclaim just caused the game to leave random vote stage through that action.