Mafia 72: Peril in Panama - Game over!

[farside22]

@Satael:

ABR is making a really good case against. Since you were so outspoken before I'd like to here if you have something to say about it.

@ABR:

Why do you think Porochaz is town? He did FOS you and did not vote for BooKitty during that last push. He tried to point to someone else that he thought was scummie who was voting against BooKitty. Thoughts?

[curiouskarmadog]

Yes, like I said, this post is a direct contradiction of itself:

I guess I dont understand why mafia would leave a doctor alive. Now, we could all go into a long discussion about this but I would rather not give the mafia any more reason to act, or not to act.

In reference to Bookitty,

I agree with her theory, but I dont think PeteD was scummy for saying it. That said, I think what Pete D didnt say could be viewed as scummy.

I said I didnt understand why people are still voting the claim doc...instead of answering me (like you blatantly did ABR) he came back with this response:

"Why are you assuming that mafia will automatically take him out?" "With statements like this, why would mafia get rid of BM if he was a doc?"

this doesnt sounds like someone who thinks BM is scum. So again, I dont understand the vote or the prespective.

I might have voted Pete D, but Bookkitty's response was..strange...I think Pete D response was scummy for different reasons,

and I dont understand why she thinks it was scummy and it seemed forced...

so I am at a loss.

thoughts?

look, you want a reason to vote me, I get it...but your wrong about me being scum and you are wrong (at least ABR is wrong in his post) about the reason.

I'm really tempted to vote for pete d based on this. It looks to me like an excuse in advance for Battle Mage not being nightkilled.

The reason for Mafia to get rid of doc-Battle Mage is the same as for any other doctor... because they don't want their nightkill interfered with. That doesn't change just because Battle Mage is likely to be lynched tomorrow. Additionally, if Battle Mage is scum, you've just provided an excuse for him when he's not nightkilled.

Why would you suggest the scum-strategy you employed in a previous game if you're town, pete d?

I agreed with Bookitty's theory IN PART. Peted's reponse DOES look like an excuse in advance for Battle Mage not being NKed. HOWEVER, is does not look scummy (in my eyes) because we (peted and mylsef) were having a conversation about BM at the time (go back and reread the events). I CONTINUED to explain that I felt the Pete D WAS scummy for another reason (see last post). At this point I would have voted Pete D for my own reasons not bookitty's. The latter red quote (from ABR) I am explaining that I dont understand why Bookitty's thinks Pete D was scum (we had different reasons remember)...the attack DOES seem forced. At this point in the game (when that was posted) I thought either Peted or bookitty were scum but I didnt know which one, thus the "I am at a loss".
I wasnt sure that Bookitty was scum. The reason I first voted Bookitty, was because it was needed to have a lynch at deadline and a no lynch is bad. When someone voted her after I did, I unvoted because again, I WAS NOT SURE and my vote wasnt needed.

I was tired of being hounded by Pete D (and ABR) so I returned my vote (this time the hammer) mostly out of spite toward Pete D. I was sort of hoping she would come up town so I could go after PeteD, which is reflected in the post. As it stands, she was mafia, so he was right...

ABR, not voting set, because I dont think I even understand the case agianst her..please provide.

I really cant explain myself any better here...so we are in a good position, if you need to lynch me..lynch me. We can probably afford a mislynch or two, and my loss is not going to hurt the town (soft claim vanilla)...so go ahead lynch me or save me for an investigation. I will try to reread to provide some insight before I go, but this game is not a priority.

[Porochaz]

@ABR:

Why do you think Porochaz is town? He did FOS you and did not vote for BooKitty during that last push. He tried to point to someone else that he thought was scummie who was voting against BooKitty. Thoughts?

Just because he thinks Im town doesnt mean I have to. And vice versa. Also not all votes on Bookie had to be townie votes...

[Albert B. Rampage]

look, you want a reason to vote me, I get it...but your wrong about me being scum and you are wrong (at least ABR is wrong in his post) about the reason.

Why do I want a reason to vote you Karma ?

if you need to lynch me..lynch me. We can probably afford a mislynch or two, and my loss is not going to hurt the town (soft claim vanilla)...so go ahead lynch me or save me for an investigation. I will try to reread to provide some insight before I go, but this game is not a priority.

If we can afford a mislynch...why not make that mislynch be Setael ? Why not trust me again, as you have before, while saving someone you are certain to be town ?

[Albert B. Rampage]

@ABR:

Why do you think Porochaz is town? He did FOS you and did not vote for BooKitty during that last push. He tried to point to someone else that he thought was scummie who was voting against BooKitty. Thoughts?

I simply wanted to look confrontational to see what she would do. In other news, Porochaz is on my townie list. Your description of his end of the day votes are logical to me.

[curiouskarmadog]

did I say I was certian about Set? The reason I voted with Bookitty (with you) was because a.) we were close to deadline and b.) there was something scummy about bookitty. What do you feel Set is scum?

[Albert B. Rampage]

Last page, man. What is with this ignoring me thang ?

[Albert B. Rampage]

did I say I was certian about Set? The reason I voted with Bookitty (with you) was because a.) we were close to deadline and b.) there was something scummy about bookitty. What do you feel Set is scum?

"Someone you are certain is town". I meant yourself.

[Albert B. Rampage]

Oh yeah, I'm starting to say this in every game; call me Albert or Rampage. ABR has an evil ring to it. Like the logo of a multi-million dollar corporate capitalist venture that takes a big dump on the environment every morning before breakfast. The kind of tag you would give someone that kicks the dog...A...B...RRRR.

So call me Albert.

[farside22]

@ABR:

Why do you think Porochaz is town? He did FOS you and did not vote for BooKitty during that last push. He tried to point to someone else that he thought was scummie who was voting against BooKitty. Thoughts?

Just because he thinks Im town doesnt mean I have to. And vice versa. Also not all votes on Bookie had to be townie votes...

As I said a few post ago. Satael had a point usually scum will vote against their scum buddies. However this was a deadline situation. I believe scum would have tried to talk others into voting against someone else instead of scum. Especially as booKitty was the mafia godfather. I think scum would rather have a no lynch. With only 5 votes needed Albert had to pressure people to vote and 5 people did in time. A few others did not. CDK, Satael, and yourself talked about others you thought was scummie. As Albert pointed out Satael was the most vocal about looking at other people as scum instead of BooKitty.

[vollkan]

PBPA of JordanA24/Setael

{Post numbers are from viewing him/her in isolation in "Oldest First" order.}
0: Votes Unright for using the word "townies". Not a good start for Jordan - this being a

really

dodgy attack.
1: Jordan has been accused of copying CKD, who questioned the use of "townies" (cf. Jordan voting on it). Here, Jordan says "CKD got to it first" - a sufficient explanation. Then, Jordan goes on to vote DP for arguing that self-voters should be lynched. I can't recall having played with Jordan before, but is he a regular vote-hopper? If he isn't, I am inclined to see this as him trying to jump off Unright so as to dodge the questions about CKD-plagiarism. Of course, I don't assume that to be the case - but the sudden change of vote for a meta policy of DP's seems odd.
2: Says self-voting is "not particularly helpful, but it hardly deserves a lynching." I agree
3: MoS makes an excellent jab at Jordan. I shall quote:

Jordan is stretching like a motherfucker. It is *NEVER* too early to be serious about lynching. Just because DP is willing to lynch a self-voter does not mean that he's trying rush the day, nor does it mean that he's willing to let everyone blindly bandwagon without giving their own opinions. You're bullshitting us this early? Nice try.

Unvote, Vote: Jordan
FoS: ABR for following him.

Jordan responds by saying:

So, you'd lynch someone because they voted themselves in the random voting stage?

Basically, Jordan ignores MoS's entire argument and, instead, assumes that MoS's vote for him means that he supports self-voter lynches. I don't like this AT ALL.
4: Doesn't like DP's analysis because he had half the players as scummy. This is another weak attack from Jordan.
5: Suggests that DP make a "scummy/slightly scummy split. Does it matter?
6: Comments that Albert is playing to form.
7: "Gets a feeling" of OMGUS from DP who voted Jordan despite finding other people scummier.
8: Suggests hypocrisy from DP for favouring Jordan as votee over a self-voter. DP's response is good: "Nope. I said I would be happy to see a self-voter lynched. That is not the same."
9: FoSes Gage; seems to be for a dodgy mason claim
10: Celebrates the leaving of the SA group
11: Nothing particularly interesting here except for the fact that in 9 Jordan said:

But Gage is not a newbie is he. He's very experienced on another site he claims.

But now he says:

Besides, Gage is a newbie, so I'd cut him a little slack.

12: Votes BM for voting a claimed mason
13: forgot to unvote
14: Votes ABR for demanding that BM claim
15: Unvotes - having forgotten ABR was a mason
16: Suggests BM is giving up.
17: Thinks the amount of claims we have had is bad.
18: Misrepresents ABR by implying he wants BM lynched regardless of claim
19: Flavour speculation
20: Big analysis. Has no suspicion of ABR due to his mason status, thinks BM is a "bit scummy" and is neutral on CKD.
21: Suggests reasons why scumMoS might want BM to think he is protown
22: On analysing DP, he concludes he is scummy - primarily due to the self-vote thing (which I don't consider scummy from DP) and for DP not being convinced one way or the other on the claims, which Jordan twists as "fence-sitting". Thinks Kakeng is scummy because Kakeng voted No Lynch WITH A SMILEY FACE AFTER IT (hell, Jordan even quoted the smiley). On Mandalorian he can't find anything scummy, so he assumes Mandalorian is pro-town...
23: Asks whether DP would lynch someone who was told by random-vote dice to vote himself.
24: Thinks MoS needs more content, on

Nekka

(Bookitty) he thinks he is reasonably pro-town and makes just two very light points against him. Thinks PeteD is scummy, mostly for behaviour to Nekka.
25: Porochaz is "kinda protown". Richman is lurker. Thinks unright is protown for keeping his vote on gage.
// Exit Jordan. Enter Set//
0: Promises content
1: She agrees with Jordan about the Unright thing, which is dodgy as I have already said. Makes a valid point about MoS not mentioning the meta of DP in his vote, but also ignores the validity of MoS's argument against Jordan. Calls me noncommittal - this I took issue with at the time and stand by what I said then. Votes unright. Her scumlist:

Unright
Porochaz
DP
vollkan
MoS

This means we have no effort to distance from Book.

2: Asks for clarification
3: Wonders why she has been asked to defend Book. Also prods Albert to say what he thinks of Unright.
4: Would prefer to lynch one off the list.
5: Thinks the attacks on her stance towards Book are inconsistent with the lack of attacks on anyone else.
6: Thinks I am scum supporting the Book wagon in a "non-bussing kind of way". Then asks whether Albert thinks I am wish-washy (the second time she tries to get Albert to comment on someone else, with a leading question). Equates my FoS of Bookitty to the "I intend to vote" thing
7: Will be pissed at ABR if Book is protown.
--LYNCH--
8: Concedes ABR was correct. Votes Poro - reasons are unclear
9: "You're wrong about me, so I'm willing to bet you're wrong about him as well. " I said my piece on just before. Needless to say, it isn't good reasoning
10: Again, I just commented on this before. It is inconsistent with 9. The only oter interesting thing is her point about her blatant defense of Book. If Set is scum, then she really has made no effort to distance. That troubles me, since I would have expected something in the way of distancing/bussing.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Conclusions: Jordan makes quite a few really dodgy attacks, and none which are actually well-reasoned or persuasive. Set seems to continue this trend, chiefly with her attacks on me for being "non-committal" and her unexplained attack on Poro. The one thing detracting from her scumminess in my mind is the lack of distancing, but I suppose this is really a wifom point.

[Albert B. Rampage]

ARRGGGHH stop calling me ABR. That's reserved for people that think I'm a monster.

[vollkan]

ARRGGGHH stop calling me ABR. That's reserved for people that think I'm a monster.

I actually made a conscious effort to call you "Albert" at points in that massive post, but force of habit forced me to type "ABR" at points as well. I'll eventually get the hang of it.

[Albert B. Rampage]

Haha thanks

[Setael]

Pathetic. I love you as a player of integrity and content-wise you are outstanding; but your acting skills suck.

Thank you for the compliment. It will look even more like a compliment once you know I'm town and realize there was no acting involved.

The lack of logic in this post is astonishing. Let me just add in one little fact: ABR was right about Book (Setael has conceded this herself).

Therefore, is it not just as feasible to argue by Set's messed-up logic that ABR is right about Set and Poro?

My point was that regardless of the fact that Albert was right about Bookitty, that doesn't mean he's right about Porochaz. Everyone knows that just because a player is right about and finds one scum, that doesn't mean the rest of their suspicions are right. A good example of this is Albert's

surety

that I am scum when in fact, he's wrong. That's what I was saying, though the more it's picked apart as my "logic" the less it makes sense.

shoot I forgot about that... however I am still not discounting the theory that gage panicked when under suspicion and claimed mason and ABR not wanting his scumpartner lynched needed to claim mason as well... however I am not sure as of yet... so Im downgrading unvote and fos ABR and then vote Lowell for his post.

Why is that post suspicion-worthy? And why is that suspicion worthy of a vote?

First of all, I can only see scum coming up with this theory in order to cast suspicion on claimed masons. Second the "however I am not sure as of yet" is incredibly scummy. I can't see a townie saying that or coming at it from that point of view. I see no logical reason for Albert to "bail out" gage if he's scum. A townie wouldn't make this argument and then distance themselves from the whole thing by saying they're "not sure as of yet" about it.

That being said, I agree that ckd is likely scum. The contradiction Albert pointed out along with the hammer post and his lack of a decent defense is, admittedly, more than I have on Porochaz. CKD looks especially bad considering vollkan's avoidance to comment on him at all. I think Porochaz, CKD and vollkan are scum. I believe ABR is a protown mason so he's just wrong about me - the others who have agreed with/pushed my wagon are likely scum (Porochaz, vollkan - I wouldn't say MoS, I think he's just a townie who's being easily convinced). Unright is still up there, but only based on yesterday. vollkan looks especially bad at this point (if CKD is scum) since he's avoiding the ckd wagon to push a case on me.

unvote, vote: ckd

[Albert B. Rampage]

I think Porochaz, CKD and vollkan are scum. I believe ABR is a protown mason so he's just wrong about me - the others who have agreed with/pushed my wagon are likely scum (Porochaz, vollkan - I wouldn't say MoS, I think he's just a townie who's being easily convinced).

If I'm right about Porochaz, who would be the 3 scum ?

[Albert B. Rampage]

Messed up tags, its supposed to read Setael wrote:

[Patrick]

Votecount

Setael (3) -- Albert B. Rampage, Porochaz, Mastermind of Sin
curiouskarmadog (4) -- farside22, pete d, Dragon Phoenix, Setael

Not voting: Battle Mage, Streeflo, Shanba, volkan, Lowell, curiouskarmadog
13 alive, 7 to lynch.

[Setael]

If I'm wrong about Porochaz, my scum list becomes ckd, vollkan, unright.

[Albert B. Rampage]

I think Porochaz, CKD and vollkan are scum. I believe ABR is a protown mason so he's just wrong about me - the others who have agreed with/pushed my wagon are likely scum (Porochaz, vollkan - I wouldn't say MoS, I think he's just a townie who's being easily convinced).

How do you know there are 4 scum in this game ?

[curiouskarmadog]

well great, better jump on my wagon while you can before it looks scummy to people tomorrow.

any reason?

[Albert B. Rampage]

Karma, I still don't understand why you aren't voting for Setael.

[Lowell]

Let me get back into the hang of this here. This is my reread from the BEGINNING of the bookitty wagon:

459- Boo attacks pete d in way I don't really understand
460- Albert calls boo out for it
462- Albert places first boo vote (very town)
463-468- Albert/boo argument rages
469- DP votes boo, 2nd vote (townish)
470- ckd tries to derail argument by changing subject (scummy), equivocates on thoughts about boo in 472 (very scummy)
475- vollkan FOSs boo (why no vote?)
477- satael votes unright, doesn't mention boo (suspicious)
478- Albert finds 477 suspicious
482-483- Albert intensifies attack on bookitty
486- satael defends boo... sort of (scummy)
487- Albert continues on warpath...
493- satael encourages others to express thoughts of boo, does not do so himself (very suspicious, looks like he's testing waters)
497- pete d votes boo, 3rd vote (very town)
501- vollkan defends boo (strange, considering 475)
504- Ablert pleads for 2 more boo votes by deadline
505- vollkan obliges, votes boo (townish, albeit odd, vote)
508- boo votes pete d
513- CKD votes boo, 5th [deadline hammer] vote (very town
515- Lowell votes boo, 6th vote [lynch +1]
516- Poro votes Albert (?)
519- CKD unvotes, won't be attached to Lowell (very scummy)
521- MoS votes boo, 6th votes [lynch +1]
524- poro votes Lowell (bad)
***Bookitty, godfather, lynched***
532- satael votes poro
533- Albert defends poro, votes satael
538- farside votes ckd
540- poro votes satael
542- Albert sets out D2 case, against satael
543- MoS votes satael
545- pete d votes ckd
548- [name unreadable in my notes] votes ckd, FOSs satael
564- satael votes ckd

First off, obviously, kudos to

Albert "Don't Call Me ABR" B Rampage

for sniffing that one out. He's my new hero.

Second, I'm of the opinion that, while bussing is possible, it is very unlikely that scum will join the wagons of other scum early, and it is ESPECIALLY unlikely that they would bus the godfather. So, I'm also declaring the following people to be

town

... or, at least, non-mafia.

DP

, who I voted yesterday, joined the wagon as the 2nd vote and never equivocated from it. This is especially important, given that he not only voted with Albert, but was the first player to give his theory real legs (post 469) and bring bookitty into the realm of lynch candidate rather than Albert pet project. Not something I think a scum would do, as no one would turn on a godfather that fast.

pete d

, for post 497. 40 posts after the original vote by Albert, the "wagon" still only had 2 votes, and was in danger (despite Alberts vocal objections) of dying out. pete d made bookitty the frontrunner for lynch, which, again, I do NOT think a scum teammate would do. Also, the fact that bookitty voted for him in desperation (post 508) is probably a credit in his favor.

vollkan

. I don't really like the way he only introduced an FOS to the argument against bookitty (when she only had 2 votes and was in no danger) and then sort of flip-flopped on his view of her, but he did step up and place the lynch -1 vote when deadline was approaching. A scum in his position, I believe, would have laid low.

MoS

. He was largely absent for the discussion, but did enter in post 521 with an insurance vote on bookitty. While his latecoming vote would tactically be the right time and place for a bussing vote, I think that (a) there was a chance boo could still escape at the time, as poro had just pulled his vote off, and (b) given MoS's absence, he could easily have just waited out the deadline without drawing any real suspicion.

The "I Don't Know What To Make Of Them" List:

ckd

. EVERYTHING about his actions reeks of scumminess during the leadup to the bookitty lynch. The worst, in my opinion, are posts 470 and 472, where he intentionally tries to curb the Albert/boo discussion and generalize the game (always a bad sign).

So, basically, he'd be a shoo-in for scum except for... post 513. He places the deadline hammer vote. So, I dont' know what to make of him.

Scums

:

poro

. He looks the worst. Not just because he didn't trust the boo wagon (fair), but because he pulled his vote at the end AFTER having joined the boo wagon.

satael

. Also vocal against bookitty wagon, and post 493 is particularly scummy. He tries to remain diplomatic during the debate, which is very very scummy. In post 477 he tries to ignore the debate altogehter, in fact.

I could go for either of these guys, frankly. However, I'll going to give Albert the benefit of the doubt.

vote satael

[Albert B. Rampage]

Poro never joined the Boo wagon, that was CKD. Poro actually voted for you.

[Albert B. Rampage]

Oh yea, and

Setael

is a she, lol you guys make her sound like satan.