Mini 535: Pick Your Poison 2 (Game Over!)

[Patrick]

Votecount

skitzer (2) -- JDodge, YvonneSeer
YvonneSeer (3) -- Gorrad, Setael, Mizzy
Mizzy (1) -- Ether
Ether (1) -- Bookitty
Porochaz (1) -- JordanA24

Not voting: scotmany12, skitzer, Lulubelle, Porochaz
12 alive, 7 to lynch.

[Ether]

Right now, Ether makes me somewhat suspicious due to his spontaneous suspicion of Mizzy.

Right, because one post informational post gives you all the knowledge about me in the world. Good job at being wrong, again! *Claps*

Uh. I've been voting you since Perfect's opportunistic bullshit and you've only secured my beliefs. (And, to Skitzer: I am not a "his.")

But let's spell out that paragraph of yours.

Because lynching pro-town folk is a really stupid idea...unless of course, you're scum. Calm the heck down and stop zerging folks, before your opinion means nothing to anyone because everyone thinks you're coocoo. If you are pro-town, then you must know that one of the best things a townie can do is play it easy and make themselves heard in a sensible, logical manner. The LAST thing the town needs is a townie doing all the work for the scum.

IGMEOY: Ether

I'm town, beeyotch. You're either scum or stupid because you're trying to lynch me. It would benefit you as town to change your playstyle to one that people will listen to you in. Your lack of charisma is not town, and your attack on me is soooooo unhelpful.

I think you're scum.

That wasn't a perfect recreation, actually. Your own post gives off the vibe of me being stupid suboptimal stuttery town--except for the IGMEOY and that little aside at the beginning, which makes an ugly dichotomy. You do not actually provide a reason to believe that you are town; you just go on about how awful it would be for the town to lynch you.

Okay, at this point, I'm getting the distinct impression that Ether is just picking out targets based on preconceived ideas.

Huh?

However, I do find it interesting that she is doing something in this game I haven't seen from her before. She's picking quotes of mine out of context and repeatedly demanding an explanation for each and every one of them, which I think is an attempt to keep me busy defending myself against her accusations so that I am distracted from the rest of the game. Her posts are unfocussed and unclear, not just to me, I think. Her insistence that every "aside" comment that she makes about me must be answered, when she's not making equal demands on other people, seems pretty odd to me as well.

I don't aim to distract you, but I think you've

used

my jabs as an excuse to be distracted. I'm not sure what the last sentence refers to.

By her own standards, that's an unexplained change of heart.

I know. I'd realized that and I wasn't voting you by then--but if I had been, it wouldn't have been for changing your mind.

I don't like this comment to Gorrad: "Bad motto, by the way. Smart towngoers get nightkilled." The wording sounds threatening in an odd way, and is she arguing that towngoers should behave stupidly? Because that's the alternative.

Gorrad said that his habit of attributing everything to sinister intent was the rational thing to do, and "why [he was] still alive." But it looked idiotic to me, an excuse to not think about what real people would

actually

do. (The undertone was actually slightly insulting: "No, that's not why you're still alive." Sorry, but, yeah.) This point is a stretch.

The Perfect/Mizzy case seems odd, as well. It nearly looks like bussing to me. Ether's pushing a case on Perfect, who seemed pretty disconnected from the game, and Mizzy votes for... YvonneSeer, and says it might be OMGUS? If you're going to own up to OMGUS, why not put your vote on the person who most actively pushed your case?

Do you find Setael scummy?

[Mizzy]

Uh. I've been voting you since Perfect's opportunistic bullshit and you've only secured my beliefs. (And, to Skitzer: I am not a "his.")

If you want opportunistic bullshit, go read your own voting record.

Oh, did I type that out loud? My bad.

That wasn't a perfect recreation, actually. Your own post gives off the vibe of me being stupid suboptimal stuttery town--except for the IGMEOY and that little aside at the beginning, which makes an ugly dichotomy. You do not actually provide a reason to believe that you are town; you just go on about how awful it would be for the town to lynch you.

No, not just ME, to lynch anyone who IS town. I meant that your scumhunting techniques seem to me, at least, to be only targeting townies...which yes, makes you scummy. Which yes, means I find Kitty to be townie thus far.

[Ether]

This is circular logic.

[Mizzy]

This is circular logic.

I don't see that it is. What it is, though, is me expressing my opinions in a clear manner so that everyone (not just you) can see them.

[Lulubelle]

I'm not sure I like the direction this game has gone so far. There's been at least one big snit, one person with a huge scumtell, and one person with a bunch of little ones. All three of those factors have proven big distractions, it seems. I'm not quite prepared to make an exhaustive person-by-person analysis, largely because I would merely be covering a lot of the same ground already covered by the other players that replaced in. I find several of their opinions right on the money, but so disagree on others. So far, I suspect we'll find the scum flying under the radar rather than above it. Hopefully, the tone of the game is changing in a way that will no longer allow that.

At the moment, I'm leaning towards Yvonne and Skitzer's scumtells as being due more to bad play than being scum. I can't help but suspect that quite a few scum have joined the Skitzer bandwagon during its height. With Yvonne I'm rather less convinced that her questionable moves have been honest mistakes, and I really can't buy someone saying that they're playing scummier intentionally.

For the time being, though, I want most of all to hear Porochaz respond to the accusations made by Jordan in this post, and to try and expedite that I'll go and add what pressure I can.

Vote: Porochaz

[Porochaz]

Porochaz

:
Alright, so he votes ckillor for what he sees as avoiding the game, which is, I admit, scummy. What I find interesting is that he unvotes as soon as it's pointed out Setael has repaced him. Why the Unvote? Set's still got the same role as ckillor, so the evidence against her is still there. My theory is that he could be scum wanting to push a bandwagon on a inactive townie (he even said in his voting post "Post or Die!", and as soon as he realises that that's not going to happen, he hastily unvotes.

I can easily see him opportunistic scum.

I only voted for ckillor due to not posting for ages after he said he was going to post the same day. Setael made a post, therefore I unvoted. You however say that you agree with me yet you use my reasoning to decide Im scummy...

As for the other stuff... I believe I have made my own case against skitzer and argued against him myself, I dont particularly feel I just voted and sat in the background, no? I feel my vote was entirely justified... now as for YvonneSeer she did something scummy I FoSed her, note that it wasnt a vote, noting my suspicions was all it was. Making sure my voice was known in the game... and what my stance was.

As for buddying up to Ether I cant see it myself please can you show me some evidence of this?

[Mizzy]

Just tossing my thoughts in to help generate discussion:

Porochaz

: Went for the same options as ckillor for scum poweroles, which were farily decent. But unlike ckillor, he didn't change his second option to the most popular one at the time. Then again, he didn't post again in the Powerole Votes, so it may be a case of not being around rather than being determined to stick to his guns.

His early few gameposts seemed to focus a lot on Skitzer, before FOSing Yvonne. In other words, he only focused his posts on those who were under the spotlight at the time. He's also somewhat buddying up to Ether, one of the more experienced players in this game. He has more recently began to make other players the subject of small parts of his posts, but it's still mainly been about Skitzer and Yvonne. I also found this post sort of interesting.

I would agree with a YS lynch but find skitzer worse

I want to hear from ckillor before anything else though

When you compare it with the votecount at the time.

[snip]
skitzer (4) -- Porochaz, JDodge, JordanA24, YvonneSeer
YvonneSeer (1) -- Gorrad
[snip]

Interesting how he finds Skitz more suspicious than Yvonne when there are much more votes on Skitz.

And his last couple of posts raises my suspicions as well

unvote vote ckillor

Post or die!

For the uneducated, who are bound to ask me why...

AH. sorry bout the inactiveity. i will definently post something today. i promise on the ghosts of christmas past, present and future

Find the next post!

Setael replaces ckillor. Please spell her name correctly.

Yeah chaz, might want to read a little bit...

damn

unvote

I hate everyone

Alright, so he votes ckillor for what he sees as avoiding the game, which is, I admit, scummy. What I find interesting is that he unvotes as soon as it's pointed out Setael has repaced him. Why the Unvote? Set's still got the same role as ckillor, so the evidence against her is still there. My theory is that he could be scum wanting to push a bandwagon on a inactive townie (he even said in his voting post "Post or Die!", and as soon as he realises that that's not going to happen, he hastily unvotes.

I can easily see him opportunistic scum.

I don't remember him buddying up with Ether...I tried to find it but I failed. Can someone give me a post number?

Also, about the "I would be okay with a YS lynch" versus the current vote count, YS pointed that out, herself, but she also so kindly reminded us that there was a great bit of conversation going on about voting for/lynching her, so I don't see what's so interesting about Poro saying anything about it.

I dunno, I just find it all too weak to stand on its own. Maybe not the best of actions, but I don't think it's enough to warrant votes at this time; not when taken in all by itself.

[skitzer]

Ether: I'm sorry. HER. Anyway, I approve of your explanation of Mizzy. Using innuendo hinting at "I'm town". Is simply repetitive to me, because everyone in tis game is town until proven scum, IMO. Saying "I'm town" is like saying "I'm alive", because everyone in the game wants everyone else to believe they are town.

FoS: Mizzy

I see where Ether is coming from now.

[Mizzy]

Ether: I'm sorry. HER. Anyway, I approve of your explanation of Mizzy. Using innuendo hinting at "I'm town". Is simply repetitive to me, because everyone in tis game is town until proven scum, IMO. Saying "I'm town" is like saying "I'm alive", because everyone in the game wants everyone else to believe they are town.

FoS: Mizzy

I see where Ether is coming from now.

Reading into things much?

[Bookitty]

In response to Ether:

No, I do not find Setael scummy. She made a well thought out, decently argued case against someone, and then shifted her vote to a bandwagon that she also agreed with. I thought ckillor was mildly lurkery, and she inherited that, but that's about all I have against her.

[Ether]

How did I do such?

The way you spoke of YvonneSeer possibly being a weak doc implied knowledge, not speculation. There are only 2 possible ways for you to possess this knowledge:

1. You are scum
   
2. You are a weak doc

If 2 was true, you would

not have speculated that Yvonne was a weak doc

. Thus I can only deduce that 1 is true.

Eh I'm not sure how much I believe skitzer. He seemed to just brush off the accusation. Doesn't really warant a vote, nut

FoS:skitzer

. Also,

Unvote:JDodge

. Random voting seems to be coming to a close.

Eh, whatever. skitzer is becoming increasingly suspicious, especially b/c of what jdodge caught. I won't have much time til Wednesday, so I'll hold off my vote. I'll also post my thoughts then.

I especially dislike Perfect's voteless support, and the timing in his further attachment to the wagon.

vote: perfect628

To clarify--I'm not really voting Perfect for not voting. (Having said that, his "I thought he was at -2" excuse is bullshit. There was a recent votecount with Skitzer at -5. There was one vote between this votecount and his post. This isn't too difficult.)

It's more Perfect's support of the Skitzwagon without having the slightest idea what it's actually about. Skitzer most certainly did

not

just brush off the accusations, JDodge had already made the post calling him out, and Skitzer's posts 111 and 118 didn't seem "increasingly suspicious" at all. I'm thinking Perfect was just trying to angle himself into a more comfortable vote.

I'm still happiest with my Perfectvote, though. It's great. Why is he still alive?

Eh I'm not sure how much I believe skitzer. He seemed to just brush off the accusation. Doesn't really warant a vote, nut FoS:skitzer. Also, Unvote:JDodge. Random voting seems to be coming to a close.

Eh, whatever. skitzer is becoming increasingly suspicious, especially b/c of what jdodge caught. I won't have much time til Wednesday, so I'll hold off my vote. I'll also post my thoughts then.

So Perfect says he doesn't believe skitzer and that he seems to be brushing off the accusation, but then just FOSes. Then a couple real days later, Perfect says skitzer is getting "increasingly suspicious". Not only is it odd that he still doesn't vote, but nothing really changed between these 2 posts so how is anything increasing? JDodge had already made his point about the assumption before the first post, and skitzer only posted a couple of short practically content-less posts between Perfect's 2 posts. Perfect seems to want to support the wagon without having to contribute a vote, or actually read the case on skitzer at all. In fact, Perfect has only posted a whopping THREE times since his random vote. His first 2 I've already quoted. Here's his third:

Ok, I suppose I understand the vote on me. I think I may have thought it was already L-2 and didn't want to make it L-1. I know that sounds lame, but i'm pretty sure that's what happened. Simple case of lack of attention. I'll try and reread by tomorrow, at the latest Tuesday, got a lot of studying to do!

He has done no scum hunting, has pretty much lurked and avoided being in the spotlight all game, and has not provided suspicions other than following those who were suspicious of skitzer. This. This is a good wagon.

No, I do not find Setael scummy. She made a well thought out, decently argued case against someone, and then shifted her vote to a bandwagon that she also agreed with. I thought ckillor was mildly lurkery, and she inherited that, but that's about all I have against her.

The Perfect/Mizzy case seems odd, as well. It nearly looks like bussing to me. Ether's pushing a case on Perfect, who seemed pretty disconnected from the game, and Mizzy votes for... YvonneSeer, and says it might be OMGUS? If you're going to own up to OMGUS, why not put your vote on the person who most actively pushed your case?

"Bussing." What's the difference?

I want you to respond to my defenses in 201 and either admit that they're valid or tell me why they're not. There are some points in there you need to clear up.

I don't see that it is. What it is, though, is me expressing my opinions in a clear manner so that everyone (not just you) can see them.

"You are only targetting townies, like me. Therefore, your accuracy sucks. Therefore, Bookitty is town." You throw in a "you're scummy for attacking me" clause, too, to be fair--but judging by your Seervote after Setael's vote on you, that should hardly be a problem for you.

[Mizzy]

"You are only targetting townies, like me. Therefore, your accuracy sucks. Therefore, Bookitty is town." You throw in a "you're scummy for attacking me" clause, too, to be fair--but judging by your Seervote after Setael's vote on you, that should hardly be a problem for you.

Your targeting would be perfectly fine if your logic actually worked out. What I find scummy isn't that you're attacking me, it's that you look like you are moving from target to target, zerging, and then moving on when people tell you to switch to decaf.

To be honest, I don't blame people for having voted for my predecessor. He was highly detached from the game, came off as wishy-washy, and generally didn't seem to answer statements/questions about him in a good, direct manner. I can't explain his actions for him, because I'm not him, but I can say that he did go inactive, and did get replaced, and played kind of distractedly before that. I have nothing against Setael's vote on him, and I can see why it happened.

My vote on Seer was not driven by others' opinions on her, but my own. Setael's vote on YS came off as mostly pressure, but relatively harmless pressure (she bitched about a wagon, and so I think Setael voted to see what reaction that would get.)

So in short, I voted for who I thought was scummiest based on the information at hand and my own opinions. I don't necessarily think you are enough scum to vote for you at the moment, hence just FoSing you before, but I do think you continually over-react to everything and generally just make distractions instead of helping matters.

I also feel that Skitzer voted for me just to get the focus off of himself in the hopes of ending the talk of wagoning on him. It also came off a bit as buddying up to Ether, and I'd like an explanation on that. I didn't suspect Skitzer before, but now seeing his vote on me after voting for YS and being strawmanned at by Ether, it makes me see this possible bizarre love triangle thing going on.

So:

@Skitzer:

Why the semi-opportunistic wagon vote without strong evidence or without any of your own opinion?

@Ether:

Your arguments come off as OMGUS backed by strawmanning and attempting to shift the wagon in a new and opportunistic direction. Can you supply some direct evidence as to why you think I am scum without using the "Too Townie" argument which is far too WIFOM to be worth anything?

@Setael:

Now that perfect has been replaced, and you can review his comments/posts in the light of his lack of time and attachment to the game, do you still find him/me scummy? Please explain either way.

[Mizzy]

I should also add that this:

I hadn't posted because I didn't have much of anything to go on. Right now, Ether makes me somewhat suspicious due to his spontaneous suspicion of Mizzy.

Followed by this:

Ether: I'm sorry. HER. Anyway, I approve of your explanation of Mizzy. Using innuendo hinting at "I'm town". Is simply repetitive to me, because everyone in tis game is town until proven scum, IMO. Saying "I'm town" is like saying "I'm alive", because everyone in the game wants everyone else to believe they are town.

FoS: Mizzy
I see where Ether is coming from now.

Smells like a rat. "Too Townie" as I've said, is not a valid argument because it can't be proved or disproved until a lynch or nightkill.

*Hangs a sign up that says WIFOM arguments need not apply.*

[Bookitty]

@Ether: From my perspective, you manufactured a case against me based on very shaky logic. You then demanded answers to every picayune point you could find, and railed against me for not answering them. Your points were not clear to me (or to others, I suspect) and it looked very forced. I could see two reasons for that to be true. One was that you were trying to force conflict to derive information for the town, and the second was that you were scum trying to throw me off my game. I went back and forth on which I thought it was. I'm still not certain.

You seem very eager for a Perfect/Mizzy lynch, and you seem to want it right away. Perfect gave us nearly nothing to work with in terms of interactions and arguments. Mizzy is more talkative, and willing to engage in the give and take of discussion. Why would you want to have her lynched right away, given that fact? Why cut off the flow of information, rather than ask Mizzy questions, and derive connections from her comments on others? If you think she's scum, she's talkative scum, and why are you in such a rush to kill someone anyway? (I refer here to your "Why is he still alive?" post.)

You've been tunneling on first me, and then Perfect/Mizzy, and for my part I haven't found it helpful, or conducive to productive discussion. Setael made a decent case against Mizzy, and unfortunately Mizzy can't explain Perfect's behaviour, but she still owns it by way of replacing him. I'm willing to give her some time (since we're not under deadline) to make an impression of her own. I don't understand why you're so unwilling to do the same.

[skitzer]

Mizzy: I sometimes unintentionally skip over things when I'm reading. And I never voted. I FoSed because it was not a point of my own doing. I'll vote when I have a good reason to state.

Also, you had one vote from Ether, so even if I would have voted, two votes is not a bandwagon on day 1.

[Mizzy]

Mizzy: I sometimes unintentionally skip over things when I'm reading. And I never voted. I FoSed because it was not a point of my own doing. I'll vote when I have a good reason to state.

Also, you had one vote from Ether, so even if I would have voted, two votes is not a bandwagon on day 1.

You are correct, it was an FoS and not a vote...I'm sorry for the mix-up. I understand about the skipping parts. Thanks for answering

[Setael]

Setael's vote on YS came off as mostly pressure, but relatively harmless pressure (she bitched about a wagon, and so I think Setael voted to see what reaction that would get.)

This is only partially correct. I voted her because she was my second best candidate and my first was getting replaced and I wanted to hear from the replacement before deciding to put my vote there again or not. You are right, however, that I was nudged by her comment "Half of you would agree to lynching me but there's only one vote on me. Are you all waiting for someone to get the bandwagon going?" She hasn't posted since then - nearly a week ago. Oh Yvonne.... where are you, Yvonne?

@Setael: Now that perfect has been replaced, and you can review his comments/posts in the light of his lack of time and attachment to the game, do you still find him/me scummy? Please explain either way.

The fact that he was replaced does not necessarily mean that he didn't have time and wasn't attached to the game. It kind of makes me raise an eyebrow that you'd try to get us to assume that. It also is very possible that he wasn't dealing well with the pressure and didn't think he could talk his way out of a lynch. Not wanting to let his scum buddies down, he opted to replace out. All kinds of possibilities. So no, I won't be reviewing his comments in the light you suggested. Other than that, I've liked your posts so far and I'm keeping my vote on Yvonne since she's scum.

[Mizzy]

This is only partially correct. I voted her because she was my second best candidate and my first was getting replaced and I wanted to hear from the replacement before deciding to put my vote there again or not. You are right, however, that I was nudged by her comment "Half of you would agree to lynching me but there's only one vote on me. Are you all waiting for someone to get the bandwagon going?" She hasn't posted since then - nearly a week ago. Oh Yvonne.... where are you, Yvonne?

Partially is better than not at all! I was hoping to see a reaction from her, too, but alas, none yet.

The fact that he was replaced does not necessarily mean that he didn't have time and wasn't attached to the game. It kind of makes me raise an eyebrow that you'd try to get us to assume that. It also is very possible that he wasn't dealing well with the pressure and didn't think he could talk his way out of a lynch. Not wanting to let his scum buddies down, he opted to replace out. All kinds of possibilities. So no, I won't be reviewing his comments in the light you suggested. Other than that, I've liked your posts so far and I'm keeping my vote on Yvonne since she's scum.

To be perfectly and completely honest with you, it hadn't crossed my mind that it may have been for reasons other than lack of time. He did admit to having studying to do and such, and told the mod (I assume because of what the mod said) that he needed to be replaced for lack of time. I just didn't consider that he could have been lying and while it's possible he didn't lie, you're right; it's just as possible that he did lie.

[Bookitty]

Mizzy:

Why do you think it's possible that Perfect might have lied about that? What other reasons could he have had, in your opinion, that would have created the need for a lie?

[JDodge]

Unvote, vote: YvonneSeer

Pardon me, just passing through

continue with your walls-o-text

[Mizzy]

Mizzy:

Why do you think it's possible that Perfect might have lied about that? What other reasons could he have had, in your opinion, that would have created the need for a lie?

It's POSSIBLE but I didn't say

probable

. But people lie, all the time. They lie to get out of commitments, lie to make themselves look better, etc. There's a possibility he lied and even though I believe he didn't, I have no proof of that.

[Bookitty]

If Perfect lied for out of game reasons, it's irrelevant to the game. And thus isn't really worth addressing. If Perfect had other reasons to lie (and scum are about the only people who could know that) then it becomes relevant to the game. We can't know anything about Perfect's reasons for leaving the game, if they are not game-related. But saying that Perfect might have lied looks very seriously like scum-uncertainty and not town-uncertainty. Town would not respond in such a conciliatory manner, in my view. My own response as town would be something like, "How should I know why he really replaced? I would ASSUME he was telling the truth, do you have evidence to the contrary?" Yours was "You might be right, I just don't know." It looks a little too appeasing, to me.

You can see how this is so, yes?

I'm still not happy with Ether and I still have no level of certainty that she's town OR scum, but I'm pretty sure this response wasn't one a townie would make, especially given your ability to argue quite forcefully regarding other points.

unvote; vote Mizzy

[Setael]

This game would be so much less time consuming if I just voted without doing anything else like JDodge. Then I could mock everyone else for providing content.

[Bookitty]

It sort of argues that YvonneSeer isn't scum, though. JDodge stuck to his case on Skitzer right through the Perfect thing, and threw some suspicion at Ether (though not even FOS-worthy) during that, but when Mizzy started getting tough questions, he makes a "wall-o-text" comment and votes YvonneSeer.

Could be just a playstyle thing, but it also could be trying to take the heat off Mizzy.

I am not ready to dismiss the second possibility, especially if she comes up scum.