Mini 536: Heroes Smalltown. Game Over!

[shaft.ed]

Mathcam, I'm arguing more on a meta basis. It seems quite a bit against the grain for what I've read as ZA's normal playstyle. In isolation I agree for this set up it's not particularly anti-town or scummy.

Any chance of mass prods as the Holidays are coming to an end?

[curiouskarmadog]

I for one agree with shafted, ZA is playing differently..that being said, the only game I have been in with Za he was scum...Shafted, how many of ZA's games have you read? any game stick out to you that is completed you can reference? or are you just blowing smoke?

[shaft.ed]

I for one agree with shafted, ZA is playing differently..that being said, the only game I have been in with Za he was scum...Shafted, how many of ZA's games have you read? any game stick out to you that is completed you can reference? or are you just blowing smoke?

I read two, MAD II and I forgot the other one a while ago so I don't remember specific instances. I do know that he had a rather reckless style in MADII, but I think it's still ongoing so it's not OK to make specific references. I'll get some examples up later today if I have the time.

[Oman]

Unfortunatly, every one of my games with ZONEACE are ongoing. So I'll have to do some sitewide reading.

Anyone got any suggestions of a town game and a scum game in which he played liek this?

[shaft.ed]

I'm currently reading through 511 Match of Championswhere he's town playing like an arrogant confrontational bastard, but he has a theory.

[mathcam]

I remember one game with ZONEACE in which I was sure he was innocent, because he was so vehemently angry at the town for thinking he was scum, and I think he even ended up self-voting at one point. At the time, I didn't think he was capable of such a play as scum, so I was pretty shocked when he was revealed as mafia. I don't know if this has much relevance, but I'll see if I can hunt down the game and reread it.

Cam

[ZONEACE]

why are we still discussing a ZA lynch? IF we are going to lynch someone it should be TSQ, but even that is a bad idea. Seriously. Do you all not realize how terrible of an idea it is to lynch the tracker day one in this game? If you were going to lynch someone today, why wouldn't you lynch the vanilla? Whatever, i clearly have no influence in this game today, so I'm gonna sit back and let you all decide what my fate is.

[Oman]

Well, interestingly enough, Cam and Shaft.ed have just given two games with the smae play as town and scum.

[Seol]

The_Fonz replaces davidangelsummers.

Cicero replaces Zindaras.

Vote count coming soon.

[cicero]

hallo all. Im in and reading up.

[The Fonz]

No underscore, Dammit!

A couple of Q's: what would a tracking result on Oman look like?
If JDodge were scum, and targetted someone watched by Yvonne for a nightkill, would that show up, or not? Because the watcher power wouldn't actually be targetted at him, but it is a power ability.
What powers fall into category six? I'm assuming investigations, what else?


I feel willing to lynch Oman today. I'm also rather concerned about I dislike ZONEACE's assertion that it should be TSQ or no-one, since I feel Zoneace is ignoring the point that certain roles are more valuable in the hands of scum than town, which would actually make them better 'blind lynches' than Shea. Not that I am in any way supporting a blind lynch, since I feel there is a decent case on a couple of people. The Zoneace/Shea pissing match is annoying, but not lynchworthy in either case.


On Oman:

I find very scummy the way he claims to be being wagonned solely on his role. That's a strawman.

Also, it strikes me that this is not the usual 'Oman being wagonned for his playstyle' occurrence. I've seen a lot of town Oman, and he seems to be acting notably different here. I find it a lot harder to see a pro-town rationale for his actions than I usually do.

THe contradiction between seemingly being very keen on passing his own powers to Adele, then cautioning against giving her investigative powers, is noteworthy.

HATE this.

I will lie through my teeth if i feel it gives me a better chance at winning this game.

The only way that is true is if you're scum.

He lists an inactive on his 'willing to lynch' list, that sets all my alarms ringing. Shaft.ed's 373 sets this out perfectly.

I don't like his move onto ZA, which seems like the easy counterwagon to his own.
_____________________________________________________
On CKD:

Dislike 318. Seems like an attempt to allege scumminess on the basis of semantic imprecision.

Don't like the way he seems to make out that taking role into account is a bad idea. The 'don't like people telling me what to do' argument doesn't fly, because arguing for or against any course of action pretty much requires you to advise the other players in the game to support the same thing.

I am pretty sure our scum (in this game) are quietly sitting back

This is often an argument forwarded by scum when their own buddies are very much not sitting back, but the centre of attention. I know I've done it.

___________________________________
On tonight's actions:

I broadly agree with the have 'Nathan target me, or an investigative role, and have that role target Peter' plan. An investigative role on a scum is actually a liability for that player, as Adele's explained pretty well. If y'all are really worried about that, though, have Nathan target me. There is absolutely no use to a doc power on a scum- if Adele is Sylar, she can't self-protect anyway, and if she's mafia, well, it's not like mafia are going to target other mafia for their NK.

I'd like to ask that Yvonne seriously consider targetting me tonight. As I can't use my powers if killed, and there's no way of protecting me without rendering my powers useless, whilst ANYONE else targetted could be under my protection, I'm a very likely mafia kill tonight, all else being equal. If I'm being watched, then the mafia has the choice of leaving me alive or giving up one of their number to remove me. (Worst case scenario is Yvonne is scum, but even then, if I die, she is forced to either name the actual culprit, or die herself).

Also, as a last note, I hate the suggestion that cops should claim vanilla in other games to avoid NK. That's precisely the situation where I think it's most anti-town, and LAL is most appropriate. But this is who Shea is, so I guess I have to shrug my shoulders.

[The Fonz]

Also, can we have a vote count?

[Seol]

No underscore, Dammit!

I've done that before, I'm sure... I guess I'll learn someday.

A couple of Q's: what would a tracking result on Oman look like?

It would return who Oman chose to influence, but no details of who Oman's target was redirected to.

If JDodge were scum, and targetted someone watched by Yvonne for a nightkill, would that show up, or not? Because the watcher power wouldn't actually be targetted at him, but it is a power ability.

Yes, because JDodge would not be using his dampening ability on his kill target.

What powers fall into category six? I'm assuming investigations, what else?

Tracking, watching and networking (including by Peter or Sylar).

[shaft.ed]

Welcome Fonz and Cicero, very happy to see two prolific posters added to the game.

Fonz I agree with your night action ideas as "best theoretical course of action" but as I've said before something that choreographed is to the town's disadvantage. If the scum know what we're doing they can work around it.

I'm not liking ZA's last post. The switch from No Lynch, to "if you lynch, lynch Shea" is disturbing as it has been pointed out that there are roles worse than vanilla. I do understand his annoyance with being hounded for a lynch, but sticking your fingers in your ears and calling on appeals to your role power is not the best way for a townie to defend himself.

[The Fonz]

Fonz I agree with your night action ideas as "best theoretical course of action" but as I've said before something that choreographed is to the town's disadvantage. If the scum know what we're doing they can work around it.
.

That's why I said 'I'd like you to strongly consider' rather than 'I think you should.'

[Adele]

could we get a votecount?

Pending the VC, I just want to say that I've got a

FOS for Oman

that could happily turn into a vote - assuming he's not in danger of a quicklynch at this time, which I doubt. Too much from him has been counterlogical, dogmatic, and survival-oriented ("I need to find out if you're good or bad asap" in a game with no outright condemnations or confirmations wasn't good, and then leading on to declaring he'd be not only willing but

happy

to lie, among others).

[shaft.ed]

Adele this information in regards to Oman is all pretty old news. How come it becomes interesting once Fonz brings it up?

[The Fonz]

Oh yeah, in my 510, the first sentence of the second paragraph should read 'I'm willing to lynch Oman today, I also have substantial, though lesser, concerns about CKD.' I didn't just put in an analysis of CKD for poops and giggles.

[curiouskarmadog]

well it was full of the former

[curiouskarmadog]

also (seems like I keep saying this). I am not down for lynching someone because of their role (or lack thereof)...so lynching SHea because he is vanilla is a bad idea...we should base our lynch on who is scummy.

fonz, where did I say I was taking the role completely out? I just dont want actions BASED solely on one's role.

[The Fonz]

fonz, where did I say I was taking the role completely out? I just dont want actions BASED solely on one's role.

I dont care who has what role, if someone is scummy, we lynch them, no one gets a pass.

[The Fonz]

Also, pretty much no-one (except ZONEACE) is actually advocating acting solely on role, (mathcam did, but only as an alternative to the RVS, and anyone who comes up with a way to avoid that gets townie brownies off me). Folks are merely pointing out that someone with a town-leaning role would have to be scummier than a player with a scum-leaning role to justify a day one lynch. That's allowing a people's roles to play some part in the process, whilst keeping scumminess as the n01 criterion.

[curiouskarmadog]

I dont care who has what role, if someone is scummy, we lynch them, no one gets a pass.

does that mean to disagree with this statement?

[The Fonz]

Does WHAT mean to disagree with that statement?

[Oman]

Well, Fonz is right, the wagon on me is not the usual "OMG OMAN IS WAGONING" wagon.

Adele is creeping up my scumlist as Shaft.ed pointed out, she's suddenly coming to the party now that it looks like a possible lynch.

Unsure of where I stand with shaft.ed now. He's dropped a lot of the horrible, crappy, arguments on me that he had early on.

The only way that is true is if you're scum.

Lieing as a townie can help the town. Its true, unfortunatly

He lists an inactive on his 'willing to lynch' list, that sets all my alarms ringing. Shaft.ed's 373 sets this out perfectly.

I said in my next post that a replacement would suffice.

I don't like his move onto ZA, which seems like the easy counterwagon to his own.

I have not moved onto him, I merely wanted to be involved in the meta discussion. You've overstated my postition.