Mini 536: Heroes Smalltown. Game Over!

[Oman]

Yeah thats cool. I wont hold it against you

[Seol]

Please note replacements have been requested for DAS and Zindaras. Bear in mind the season, which will affect response times.

[Oman]

Bear in mind the season, which will affect response times.

Summer?

[Thestatusquo]

Bear in mind the season, which will affect response times.

Summer?

Oh you silly Aussie, you.

[curiouskarmadog]

I am pretty sure our scum (in this game) are quietly sitting back

What makes you so sure?

gut

I don’t think that ZA is our scum. His bandwagon is picking up steam (slowly) and I am just not buying it. I don’t think shea is scum either at this point. I dont agree with a no lynch and don’t know why ZA is pushing it. I have only been in one game with ZA that I knew his alignment (scum) and I had that pegged from Day 1. This doesn’t have that feel to it. Of course, people change styles and this is a different set up, but I am not getting the scum vibe off ZA.

[mathcam]

I agree with pretty much everything ckd said.

Cam

[shaft.ed]

I agree with pretty much everything Mathcam said.

I do have some serious content to add about the current ZA situation, it's just been a bit difficult for me to get the time to get it written down. I'm hoping tommorow I will fare better.

[Adele]

I am pretty sure our scum (in this game) are quietly sitting back

What makes you so sure?

gut

I don’t think that ZA is our scum. His bandwagon is picking up steam (slowly) and I am just not buying it. I don’t think shea is scum either at this point. I dont agree with a no lynch and don’t know why ZA is pushing it. I have only been in one game with ZA that I knew his alignment (scum) and I had that pegged from Day 1. This doesn’t have that feel to it. Of course, people change styles and this is a different set up, but I am not getting the scum vibe off ZA.

If the slowness of the wagon is a factor, consider the holidays - lots of threads, including this one, have slowed over christmas. If it's just gut then... I personally don't see it, and con only trust it to the extent of other peoples' testimonies - are you guys sure enough to tie your innocence to ZAs, or would you prefer me (personally) to judge on less qualitative matters? This is a weird matter - I normally wouldn't consider accepting testimony, but this strength of consensus is unusual.

[curiouskarmadog]

If the slowness of the wagon is a factor, consider the holidays - lots of threads, including this one, have slowed over christmas. If it's just gut then... I personally don't see it, and con only trust it to the extent of other peoples' testimonies - are you guys sure enough to tie your innocence to ZAs, or would you prefer me (personally) to judge on less qualitative matters? This is a weird matter - I normally wouldn't consider accepting testimony, but this strength of consensus is unusual.

I think I might be reading this post incorrectly. The speed of the wagon has nothing to do with my gut on ZA and who I think it scummy. I wouldnt consider my judgement on ZA as a testimony and much as a personal insight. I have also given my thoughts about Shafted and Shea, why arent you asking me to tie my innocence to them? Mayeb I am not understanding you though, to the part I am not getting, are you asking if we are willing to our own alignment on the line in defense of ZA? Because that is simply ridiculous and quite odd if you are. Before I go into this anymore, I want to make sure that is indeed what you are asking....so far I have misread twice in this game..so before I jump to conclusions (again), I want to make you I understand what you are really asking here.

[Gorgon]

I'm pretty confused by Adele's post myself.

Adele, what do you mean by 'judging on less qualitative matters?'

[Adele]

Well, I'd normally discount statements such as the one you made above, as not being information that I can use, but I was struck by the chorus of "/agree"s; I'm just trying to work out what I can do with it. I guess on one level I'm asking you guys if,

given that

the other two agree with you, you

want

other players to take your word for ZA's probable innocence. Then, leading on from there (IF you do) I was asking if you were willing to put any kind of deposit down on it - never thinking it'd be as bald as "if he's innocent you are if he's guilty you are", but still.

If you're just stating your own opinion for the record and aren't looking to convince others, then feel to ignore all the above, and I'll continue judging ZA on my usual terms.

[curiouskarmadog]

in a game where we are suppose to not know people's alignment, why would anyone put up a defense for someone they think is town and put their innocence on the line? Again why didnt you make a comment like this when I gave my opinion of Shea or Shafted?

[Oman]

Then, leading on from there (IF you do) I was asking if you were willing to put any kind of deposit down on it - never thinking it'd be as bald as "if he's innocent you are if he's guilty you are",

Yuck. Yuck, yuck, yuck.

There is no way for a town CKD to know anyone's alignment, and tieing himself in either way will only end (IMO) with a CKD lynch. If he's scum, so is CKD (because he put down the "deposit" [note i'm ignoring WIFOM as your inital comment ignored it]).

If he's town, CKD must have been scum trying to tie himself to a townie, thus CKD is lynched.

Adele, thats a really bad idea where you assume innocence or guilt in a one to one like "if he's innocent you are if he's guilty you are". I know you were intending to do something less "bald" but anything more than "If CKD is scum/town I'll eat my hat" is a stupid "bet" to make.

[Adele]

Adele, thats a really bad idea where you assume innocence or guilt in a one to one like "if he's innocent you are if he's guilty you are". I know you were intending to do something less "bald" but anything more than "If CKD is scum/town I'll eat my hat" is a stupid "bet" to make.

See, what I find remarkable is, after someone asks me to explain, and I do, and you acknowledge it - you still yell at me for asking for something I wasn't asking for!

no one-to-one ties. Nothing

nearly

so extreme and quite possibly nothing at all. This was never specifically about CKD (and herein lies the answer to your question, ckd) but the ckd-mathcam-shafted

trio

over whether they think their consensus is in itself evidence in favour of ZA's innocence.

My error was simply this: thinking that there might be value in making the defense of ones' co-players explicit. We all know that if I vehemently defend someone, or even opt not to join in a bandwagon, I'm not only making a statement of my opinion but making a wager on it - if he then turns up guilty, I'll climb up some scumdars. If it happens a few times, I'll likely die. Anything you say in this game effects you in this way - including statements intended only to explain ones' own position, not to convince others.
Try to take it to the explicit level, of course, and you lose those subtleties, the natural progression of the game, and leave yourself open to attacks such as oman's as well (which frankly seemed disingenuous to me - as I say, you acknowledge that I'm not saying such-and-such while yelling at me for saying such-and-such).

We live in a pre-barter economy of trust; contracts and such are as of yet unformulable. But have I seen players say "that person's not scum; I can't prove it, but just trust me" when they had no out-of-thread information? Yes. There's certainly value in finding out if that's where ckd

or

mathcam

or

shafted was at.

[curiouskarmadog]

and what do you gather from my repsonse? and why did you not ask me about shafted or shea, why focus on ZA?

[Oman]

I know you were intending to do something less "bald" but anything more than "If CKD is scum/town I'll eat my hat" is a stupid "bet" to make.

[mathcam]

To clarify, I realized that my "everything ckd said" was a bit of an exaggeration -- it was referring only to the paragraph, and not the "gut" response that the scum players were sitting back and not participating.

Adele: As to ZA, it was just an expression of agreement, and not an attempt at an argument. For the record, here's my stance and reasoning -- I don't think ZA is particularly pro-town, but I find it hard to believe that anything genuinely scummy can be extracted from his interaction with TSQ. I think the two of them could have rolled a dice and been arguing about whose number was scummier and gotten the same sort of results. ZA's interactions with non-TSQ have been significantly more obnoxious than they have been scummy. It's not clear to me that his bandwagon isn't based on eliminating obnoxiousness more than it is on eliminating scum.

Cam

[shaft.ed]

Sorry guys new years took me away from the internets longer than expected. I'll get a post up later today. Pretty busy at work but I should have some time.

[shaft.ed]

I'm basically finding ZA's play to be assuradely anti-town but not seriously scummy. He's using insults, not answering people and in many instances avoiding serious discussion, but he has at times partaken in discussion although usually after much requesting. Of all of his play I find the advocacy of No Lynch to be the most troubling in regards to his usual play style.

I think the trap that TSQ set is pretty much a null tell for ZA because I would expect him to go after the weak part of the argument in order to make Shea look bad.

So up til now I'm finding ZA to be detrimental to the town but not seriously scummy. However I must say if not a confirmed Tracker with a 75% chance of being pro-town he would have my vote. And that's something I'm really not liking about this situation because I'm having to defend someone who is behaving like an ass.

And back to my "one track mind": Oman why do you never answer my inquiries completely (or sometimes at all)?

Shea's argument satisifies me, I am more unnerved by zoneace than shaft.ed right now, but only cause I feel he's stopped

fabricating craplogic

.

Unvote vote ZONEACE

Please demonstrate.

[Oman]

He's using insults, not answering people and in many instances avoiding serious discussion, but he has at times partaken in discussion although usually after much requesting.

Oman why do you never answer my inquiries completely (or sometimes at all)?

How interesting when its ZONEACE its not scummy but with me you often refer to it to cite my scummyness (IIRC).

[shaft.ed]

ZA's answered me if I recall correctly. And the reason I refer to it as scummy in regards to you is from first hand experience in mini 495.

[shaft.ed]

EBWOP: And good job of not answering my question yet again.

[Oman]

Its a matter or principle now.

[Thestatusquo]

fos:Oman

[mathcam]

shaft.ed: I'm not convinced ZA's pushing no-lynch is particularly anti-town (It's typically hard to argue that no lynch is definitively, IMHO), but I definitely don't think it's scummy. The risks of proposing no-lynch are well-known, and a scum ZA (even a town ZA) would be foolish to propose if if he didn't genuinely believe it. I also think that no lynch has some merits in this case -- not enough for me to put it over lynching JDodge or ZONEACE, but enough that I don't find suggesting it inherently scummy.

Cam