Mini Normal 1879 Bringer Mafia II [Game Over]

[Fro99er]

It's amazing. Shouldn't more people want to pressure penguin?

[Lowell]

Lowell what are you even talking about? You think chaos has been bussing wheme all day, when I made a huge wall post about how I thought chaos was manipulating wheme.

No.

Just no. I think Chaos and Wheme are either both town, or one is town one is scum. There is ZERO chance both are scum.

I def see the possibility of "distancing via fake(ish) attacks" going on here. Wheme flips scum and chaos says "see I told you the claim might be fake, I'm town!" I less see the possibility that wheme is town but chaos is scum. Not sure what scum chaos would have to gain from picking on town PR wheme when he could just not comment at all. Yes, I admit this is WIFOM, but as scum most people don't take those kind of chances.

[Fro99er]

Chaos/Wheme are not both scum

[ECMitchell]

Frog whats your opinion on Terata and ECM's argument a few pages back?

ECM scumreading terata is bad.

This was the drafted reason you needed to save? And I have no idea how anyone can read through Terata's ISO and believe they're town.

Reading penguin's ISO is annoying. @penguin, I wish you would quote the posts you respond to more so I can make better sense of your post history.

I think Chaos and Wheme are either both town, or one is town one is scum.

There is ZERO chance both are scum.

I'm weary of absolutism like this. The truth of the matter is, this early in the game, the only ones who can accurately and confidently make such claims are scum. As town—right now—we simply cannot possibly know. Perhaps that's just your tone of voice to show confidence, but you and Terata both have now made absolute assertions like this. I also don't quite understand the logic behind that claim—why can't Chaos and Wheme be scum mates?

I still fully endorse my vote on WhemeStar. After some pressure was taken off he has practically ceased all participation and has been coasting. Curious why the claim deterred so many so quickly, when chances are caught scum will claim a power role to stay alive longer. If their play is still scummy—and WhemeStar's play always has been and still is incredibly scummy—it's still the lynch to go with.

[Fro99er]

This was the drafted reason you needed to save?

No.

Where the fuck did I say that was my drafted reason?

Don't fucking put words in my mouth.

[Fro99er]

Gerry!

[Firebringer]

If we all could just get along, the world would be a lot more boring. Think about it, what if star wars didn't have the sith? Really makes you think. Right? Conflict creates entertainment. This is why we have Bringer Mafia

Vote Count #1.11:

WhemeStar [L-3] ChaosOmega, ECMitchell, PenguinPower, Lil Uzi Vert
Lowell [L-5] WhemeStar, Aj The Epic
ECMitchell [L-5] Terata, Lowell
Hawk [L-6] Cooperative Sheep,
Cooperative Sheep [L-6] Hawk
PenguinPower [L-6] Fro99er

Not Voting (2): gerryoat, HavingFitz

With 13 people alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

V/LA:

Fro99er is V/LA till Monday

Deadline:

(expired on 2017-02-13 15:45:00)

[WhemeStar]

@Chaos - you called him out for a read change with about 100 posts inbetween. I haven't gone back and looked, but I'm pretty sure Frog and I wall war-ed it up during those 100 posts in some level. I would also note that at some point in the game Frog claimed I lacked logic and about 2 players sheeped him off that call (even though later Frog admitted he'd "misunderstood" me in his case). While we're at it, people are still acting like his original case had merit, without comment on how even Frog shifted his case.

So, to be short, I think there was a silly amount of negativity and noise about the case, and I think multiple players (town and scum) kind of hopped on it/weren't reading and just going for the possible mislynch/some combination thereof. So a read change hardly seems shocking to me at that stage.

Wheme, can you cite the posts that gave you pause and caused you to 180 on Sheep?

His ISO #8, #9, #11, he voted Froggy for not answering his questions, which looks like to me he tried to get a wagon on froggy going and get pressure of of him

(for reference, those ISO numbers refer to post 107, 110, and 158)

Sheep, now knowing that the reason for Wheme's 180 are all within the first 7 pages, after which Wheme had previously called your slot town multiple times (307, 329, 332), does that change your thoughts on his flip on your slot?

Wheme, you said, "he voted Froggy for not answering his questions, which looks like to me he tried to get a wagon on froggy going and get pressure of of him". I definitely see pro-town motive in that summary. This is my big problem with all of this. It looks like you're singing along with the melody, but you don't understand the lyrics. Post 110 that you cited has fucking nothing at all to do with Sheep's push on frogger. You said before that your opinions this game are thoughts of others jumbled into what you like. Was your early town read on Sheep gotten in that way?

------

Open question to anyone that scumreads Wheme but doesn't want to lynch them because of the Rolestopper claim: Why? What benefit are you hoping to gain by giving them a night to work? Even if they are town, their power is neutered now because the scum know they have to play around a protection.

Sorry, must of missed this. But to answer your question my read on sheep when I posted it before was out of date, I wasn't really reading up on the game and wasn't really into it. No, my opinion that sheep was town before was not a result of others opinions. I believe I'm one of the first people to call both sheep & froggy town.

[ECMitchell]

This was the drafted reason you needed to save?

No.

Where the fuck did I say that was my drafted reason?

Don't fucking put words in my mouth.

I didn't know. That's why it was a

question

to you, not a statement. Hot headed are we?

[Lowell]

FYI, I'm likely out this weekend.

[Hawk]

It can be indicative of scum Sheep just like you think me consistently attacking you because I don't like your logic and your assumptions about players is scummy -_-;;

At least Frog acted like he believed I didn't make logical sense.
Your attack is "oooh, an *assumption*" as though that's remotely something town don't do - then you claim I lack logic, with something like that being your evidence...which, y'know, shows no lack of logic on my end, and even if it *did* is still a playstyle complaint, unless you're claiming I'm normally very logical, but am intentionally being illogical because I'm scum.

Meanwhile, you remain scum, pushing an empty case emptily, and trying to sell around for another now that you're being left alone to push this one.

Your arguments for why Lowell would be hard to agree with is a logical fallacy called a False Dilemma... You present the case as only having two possible outcomes when you say in post 180

"The idea that he would never sheep does support A and B cleanly and without effort."

A and B being this from Fro99er

"a) he would have been ok with voting there if nobody else did

b) that he was being difficult to cooperate with"

You make an assumption about Lowell and say he never sheeps therefor your logic makes sense here. Thus presenting us the idea that if Lowell never sheeps he is uncooperative and if Lowell does sheep he would be Cooperative and your argument that Lowell's statement (I'm not a sheep, Sheep) is an absolute saying he never sheeps. You see what I'm saying?

Like your use of assumptions on why Lowell does something and it relating to how he would play the game throws shade, and your playstyle to this continues to create these logical fallacies where because someone is doing something and you make an assumption to make it logical you present yourself only two options aka he's scum because scum do this and he's town because town do this.

Like right now you're assuming I cannot have town motivation for attacking you over and over for a playstyle that lacks logic. You simply close your mind off to possibilities outside your own thoughts. Lowell says something that I mean to take as he never sheeps therefor he would be uncooperative as a townie taking that mindset into the future, and it's either this or its not. No middle ground. So let me ask him a loaded question assume an answer and then ask a follow up question because thats logic.

Hawk and Fro99er attack me and my logic but my logic makes sense they're just misrepping or misunderstanding me not possible that there is indeed something wrong in my logic and I'm stuck in a fallacy that I actually believe. So since I'm town they must be scum because my logic makes fucking sense because *assumption about player x or situation"

like fuck do you get it?


Pedit: I don't like WhemeStar response to Chaos. It feels very much like. Deflect. Give me a second I want to pull something and ask a question.

[Hawk]

Sheep and Frogger have been going at it all game. At first I thought it was froggy just trying to get reactions out of others, but then it kept going on and on. After reading both of their posts over and over I think sheep is trying to just blame froggy of not reading his posts/answering his questions/misrepping him. Which I think is a scummy move, just asking questions over and over again. I thought sheep's slip wasn't really a slip, but his posts lately have me thinking he is possible scum.

That's very last part. Please point to which posts lately (aka around or before 458). That helped flip or start flipping your read to Sheep.

[gerryoat]

Gerry!

Lmao

[gerryoat]

Gonna be without internet for the night.

[Hawk]

ECM get an avatar boi!!

Okay so walk me through two things. Walk me through the part of Terata's ISO that ping you and walk me through how Wheme and Chaos could be scum buddies because I think it's a safe assumption to make by Fro99er but I want to know what I didn't see.

[Aj The Epic]

What's the reason we haven't tied up Lowell yet? He's giving scumreads out like water and yet people aren't voting him. Scum would ATTACK this weak of a townmember, guys.

[Fro99er]

ECM get an avatar boi!

Obv coaching

[ECMitchell]

ECM get an avatar boi!!

Okay so walk me through two things. Walk me through the part of Terata's ISO that ping you and walk me through how Wheme and Chaos could be scum buddies because I think it's a safe assumption to make by Fro99er but I want to know what I didn't see.

Fine. Avatar'd.

It's easier for me to point out my suspicion of Terata by sharing my own post history, since I've quoted Terata and provided suspicions in those same posts:

465 (More conversational, but providing this for reference.)
474
517
520
621
625
626

In short, Terata's logic is inconsistent, he continually dismisses points raised against his logic, and I find his interactions with WhemeStar "off" in every sense. I also found AJ's points in 631 to be spot-on.

What's the reason we haven't tied up Lowell yet? He's giving scumreads out like water and yet people aren't voting him. Scum would ATTACK this weak of a townmember, guys.

I wouldn't mind this lynch, but I'd really rather see WhemeStar's lynch first; I'm more confident in it.

[ECMitchell]

Okay so walk me through two things. Walk me through the part of Terata's ISO that ping you and walk me through how Wheme and Chaos could be scum buddies because I think it's a safe assumption to make by Fro99er but I want to know what I didn't see.

To answer your second question, Hawk: I'm not saying WhemeStar and Chaos are necessarily scum together. I'm not sure I'd even have an argument for that pairing right now. What I'm challenging is the assertion that they're

definitely

—with 0% chance otherwise—not scum together. Any pairing is possible right now, and the perspective of each and every townie should be that any pairing is possible.

[WhemeStar]

So are you guys saying me flipping town will out two scum?

In reply to Hawk, i don't like Sheeps posts #451 & #449. In 449 he said that he believes Chaos is scum, but why hasn't he voted him at all?

[havingfitz]

Hi all. I'll catch up as much as I can today but I will be offline ~all of tomorrow and a good bit of Sunday.

I'll try to get some thoughts in before weekend/RL interferes.

Mod....v/la until Sunday night.

[Cooperative Sheep]

@Frogg - replace "lurk" with "shallow reads" and my response will still hold true for the semantics you're attempting to bring up here. It is still the same thing - lurkers never offer deep reads.

[Cooperative Sheep]

@Hawk - what about your assumption that I'm actually;

1. Believing in only two options.
2. Applying that as a scum/town read to Lowell.

Because neither is supported by evidence, and, if you think believing an absolute like "either Sheep has logic, or is using this stilted fallacy" is a fallacy - then aren't you doing the same thing?
But I'm actually able to understand that you need to present a reaction to cause a reaction - but you're pretending that you don't.

[Lil Uzi Vert]

@Mod: Replace me. Haven't been feeling this game since Naomi left.

[Hawk]

@Hawk - what about your assumption that I'm actually;

1. Believing in only two options.
2. Applying that as a scum/town read to Lowell.

Because neither is supported by evidence, and, if you think believing an absolute like "either Sheep has logic, or is using this stilted fallacy" is a fallacy - then aren't you doing the same thing?
But I'm actually able to understand that you need to present a reaction to cause a reaction - but you're pretending that you don't.

Do you listen to yourself talk?

First let me show some evidence since I think you're wrong.

If his answer is "I absolutely didn't do that" then my question has no bearing.
If his answer is "yeah, that's about right" then I would like to save some time and get an answer to the immediate and needed followup question.

How do you consider the question to be shade throwing exactly?

My response to this is to refer to my question to your Post 41. Because it's only shade if other people would consider the behavior neutral.

You present two options then defend your argument that it's not shade throwing by dismissing that Lowell could have a neutral response meaning at least right here you thought his answer could only be alignment indicative.

At the RVS stage you shouldn't have to do that - which means either it's a really bad habit, or he was salivating scum who got overexcited.

Presenting case as two options once again to throw shade.

I continue to dislike Lowell for the early stuff that he opted to dodge and the notes mentioned here.

Would also do Lowell, but I'll sheep AJ for the moment.

My scum reads remain about the same, I'll remind people that I've had issues with Chaos for some time now,

You clearly scumread Lowell here (if im wrong explain) for early responses and somewhat off the basis he wasnt being Cooperative with you even if your vote isn't there. This makes me think that you do believe that his response was aligned to a scumread on Lowell.

He doesn't believe what he's saying - if he did he'd be at least slightly piffed that I'm mocking it so much (check out Frogger who I actually caught misunderstanding/misrepping me - he was annoyed and quadrupled down on his beliefs - that's actual conviction and proves that no matter what I thought about the case, he believed the case.

Hawk can't be arsed.
He's scum.

I will agree that your "case" against me is easily read as one giant vague playstyle attack that doesn't show scum intent.
You say 'assumption' I say 'stating an opinion' - either way neither is scummy and it's silly to treat it as such.

Notice how you present two options again to defend your argument? it's fine if you don't believe that there only two options. You're smarter than that. It's not as simple as a straight False Dilemma instead you present two options and then file in a loaded question or don't explore option z.

Like right here. You say it's silly because either way you put it it's not scummy. What I'm saying is the use is scummy.

You make an "assumption" Present a case as X or Y until someone says Z and if they don't say Z you use that as logic. That's scummy behavior to me. Like with Frog. You presented it as either he is town with a bad habit/belief or salivating scum using a misrep. Until Frog was able to present Z (misunderstanding) you didn't waver. And when you did you simply Rephrase him as X because that lines up with your logic making you right in that argument. You see how that's very manipulative and scummy right?

That's why I scum read you.