Mafia 70: Traditional - Game over!

[Simenon]

You misread, bookitty. That is a starter-post devoted to lynch wagons (as you can see, I have analyzed three lynch wagons in that post). That had nothing to do with your lynch. I called it a starter-post because it does not yet express an opinion.

[Bookitty]

Why did you post it at that time?

If you thought I was scum, why would you detract from my imminent lynch by posting something that seemed purposefully designed to distract from that wagon?

If it was your intention to get me lynched, why would you post something that "had nothing to do with my lynch" right before you achieved your goal?

[Simenon]

Why did you post it at that time?

Because analysis is nice to have?
Lynch wagon analysis would seem to be useful once there have been a few lynches.

If you thought I was scum, why would you detract from my imminent lynch by posting something that seemed purposefully designed to distract from that wagon?

This seems to be another loaded question. It obviously was not my intention to distract from your wagon, and I don't think it did in the first place.

If it was your intention to get me lynched, why would you post something that "had nothing to do with my lynch" right before you achieved your goal?

I am not a lyncher. My goal, as a townsperson, is to win the game. I do that by catching and lynching scum.

[Patrick]

Votecount

Setael (1) -- Battle Mage
Bookitty (4) -- KaleiÐoscøpe, Niv, Mastermind of Sin, JDodge
Battle Mage (2) -- Elmo, Korejora
Mastermind of Sin (2) -- Skruffs, Simenon
Simenon (2) -- Bookitty, Sir Tornado
Korejora (2) -- Setael, Ether

Not voting: ZONEACE
14 alive, 8 to lynch.

[Setael]

Why in the world, if I was a mafia traitor as you claim, try to deflect from your lynch?

Because if Bookitty was lynched and came up protown mason, I (and I'm probably not the only one) would be pretty sure you are the "untrustworthy" mason.

[Simenon]

Why in the world, if I was a mafia traitor as you claim, try to deflect from your lynch?

Because if Bookitty was lynched and came up protown mason, I (and I'm probably not the only one) would be pretty sure you are the "untrustworthy" mason.

Nobody then had expressed any opinion that I was the "untrustworthy mason", and if I had really meant to save Bookitty, I would have unvoted her and tried to use my masonhood to save her. Use your head.

[Sir Tornado]

Simenon, why did you think town BooKitty would not claim on -1 when you said: "That is a terrible claim".

I know you have claimed to have changed your mind since then but I want to know what you were thinking when you said that. You haven't really answered this till now.

[Simenon]

Because I felt that she was outing the masons. How many times have I had to explain this?

[Setael]

Nobody then had expressed any opinion that I was the "untrustworthy mason", and if I had really meant to save Bookitty, I would have unvoted her and tried to use my masonhood to save her.

Except for Niv. And everyone who has been at least vaguely suspicious of you ever since that exchange. I refuse to believe that you think that issue has been completely forgotten.

Use your head.

No need to be a jerk.

[Simenon]

I apologize for that, it was uncalled for.

Unless I've completely misread the game, no, nobody was still suspicious of me for that, except Yamahako. I haven't heard anything about it since.

[Sir Tornado]

Because I felt that she was outing the masons. How many times have I had to explain this?

Ok, Now, Simenon, did you think that this was a game where the allignment of the killed players remained a mystery after they died? If BooKie is a pro-town mason, and she died, lynched by you that is without informing the rest of the town that she were a mason, did you think that we would not know that she was a mason after she died? Explain how lynching BooKie without giving her time to claim would not out the masons after she died if her claiming outed the masons.

And, please don't tell me that you did not think about this. If you did not, then explain why not.

And, why did you make Post 1809 where you said:

Ether, are you thinking what I'm thinking about Bookitty-scum?

yes or no question.

This was supposed to be the post due to which Ether got outed by BooKie claim later on, according to you.

Now, explain how Ether wouldn't have been outed had BooKie been lynched and came up Pro-Town mason. Why did you post that post breadcrumbing Ether as mason anyway?

[Simenon]

It wouldn't, sirt, because I felt nobody would spot that ether communication. Bookitty, who is even a mason, certainly didn't. Who's to say who would?

I already stated I didn't think that outed ether.

[Bookitty]

Okay, I despair of getting any kind of straight answer out of Simenon. I suspect that he's scum of one variety or another (the traitor thing seems plausible to me, though in retrospect I'm surprised I hadn't thought of it myself).

The following is my analysis and understanding of recent events, from my own perspective, insofar as I can understand any of Simenon's reasoning at all.

Simenon claims he thought I was scum, and that he'd indicated thusly to Ether. Ether says he had not since Night One. I can see this as an innocent misunderstanding, I'd thought myself that Ether would pass along my thoughts to Simenon, and that didn't happen either. Despite believing that he'd indicated his suspicions to her during nighttalk, Simenon addressed her in thread asking for confirmation after he'd already put his vote on me, and she immediately agreed and voted with him.

I believed they were running a gambit (his wording to Ether was vague and did not dissuade me from this view) to lure out scum. I didn't make any comment about it, at the time, because I felt any comment I made would simply out Ether, and I didn't feel that was a good idea. At this point I believed either there was a miller mason (a viewpoint I'd expressed to Ether) or that Niv was an SK mason. I don't think I mentioned my theory about Niv as an SK to Ether, but I may have done. Niv joined the wagon, but I was not surprised, given my distrust of him.

So, we get to L-1. Simenon posts his "lynch starter wagon" post, but did not unvote, which made me uncertain of my theory about the "scum luring" gambit. I wasn't aware of any nighttalk between him and Ether, other than my asking her to pass along my thoughts to Simenon since he (from my perspective) left chat rather than speak to both of us at once. So I claimed. Niv confirmed my claim, but did not unvote, thus making me think perhaps he was not the untrustworthy mason after all. I thought it likely the untrustworthy mason would unvote immediately upon my claim, because they would not want to narrow the options for the other two. In fact that did happen, though not the way I had anticipated.

Simenon responded to the claim by saying it was "horrible" and proceeded then to unvote and vote for Mastermind of Sin, and wonders why Niv did not object to my lynch (although neither Simenon nor Ether did -- why would Simenon think Niv would do so, since he was voting for me? This still makes utterly no sense to me). At this point I was still wavering as to whether or not Simenon's vote and solicitation of Ether's vote was intended as a gambit to draw out scum. When asked, he stated that he thought I was scum, but moved his vote because he did not think that the town would vote for a claimed mason. He's since stated that he did intend to get me lynched, but apparently thought that I would not claim, to protect the masons. This makes no sense if he thought I was scum... why would Simenon think scum would not claim in order to protect the masons?

His actions only make sense, in my view, if he knew I was a pro-town Mason, and intended to bring me to the edge of lynching without actually allowing my lynch and outing as a pro-town mason. He expected Niv to object to my lynching (by his own statements) thus outing me as a mason. Then he could have directed his scolding at Niv, rather than me, and unvoted reluctantly because he didn't think the town would lynch a claimed mason, but continue viewing me with "suspicion" and setting up a situation where both Niv and I would be somehow responsible for having outed Ether, and thus would be more suspicious to her than Simenon himself. This explains his odd and repeated assertion that Ether and I outed Ether, rather than his own in-thread comment to her and his outright assertion that she was a mason after my claim. It also explains his original comment that I should have lied to protect the masons, something that is not reasonable to expect from a pro-town mason, but is ridiculous to expect from one you think is scum.

The reasoning behind not lynching me, but leaving me alive as a target for later, is obvious from scum-Simenon's perspective, I think. He stated that he'd told Ether that he thought I was the scum mason. If I died, and was revealed as pro-town, then the possible scum masons would be narrowed still further, to one in three. Niv was already suspicious of Simenon from day one of the game. The noose would be tightening, and Simenon would not be able to deflect suspicion onto me any further in his talks with Ether. So that makes perfect sense, especially if Niv outed me as Simenon seemed to expect. That would allow Simenon to claim to suspect both of us, thus widening his options in the event one of us was nightkilled (a possibility, with the traitor scenario).

Incidentally, my comments about certainty were in relation to the gambit I believed Simenon was making. I felt that town had learned as much as possible from my wagon, and was in my own subtle way asking if Ether and Simenon agreed. Since no such gambit existed, clearly no response came, but I was attempting to communicate to Ether and Simenon my feeling (at that time, based on my belief that Simenon was pro-town) that enough information had been derived from this wagon. I did not wish to claim, and refrained from doing so until I saw no other option. Of course, since Simenon intended my lynch, that comment received no answer from the other masons, and in retrospect I understand why.

Additionally, (and this is speculation on my part) his not-intended-to-distract post right before my claim seems to be setting up a situation where he could jump on whoever hammered, which seems to indicate that the scum were already on my wagon, and that whoever hammered would have been town. Simenon could argue at that point that he just "forgot" to unvote, but that his post was clearly intended to indicate that he did not want my lynch. If I had not claimed, but instead been lynched, Simenon would have been in an excellent position to state that he had no intention of lynching a mason, but instead was in the process of leaving the wagon when someone (likely town, as I said) "quick-hammered". My claim spoiled this possibility, because it prevented the possibility of such a hammer.

This is my opinion on what the likely situation is. If you see logical flaws, errors, or mistakes, please point them out.

[Bookitty]

It wouldn't, sirt, because I felt nobody would spot that ether communication. Bookitty, who is even a mason, certainly didn't. Who's to say who would?

This is not true. I have never said I didn't spot that Ether communication. I simply didn't call any further attention to it in hopes that no one else would notice it, and I misread what it meant, based on my own incorrect theory about your actions at the time.

You outed Ether with this statement:

Regardless, I was voting Bookitty because she is one of the masons, that's why I assumed Ether was voting Bookitty, and that was the reason why I asked ether if she was voting bookitty because of my reasoning.

I knew Ether was a mason. You could not have outed her to me. I was aware of the statements made in thread, but I felt they would not mean anything to the rest of town even in the event of my death and/or claim. You were pushing for my lynch, so at that point my role and alignment would have been known, so... how would that not out Ether, if my claim alone could do so?

[Simenon]

I could not have forseen you claiming- that is obvious by my reaction- and had I expected you to be town, I wouldn't have wagonned you, which must mean I both didn't expect you claiming and thought you were scum, despite the fact that a scum mason should try to claim in order to out the other masons. I believe that is your big dilemma, without the conspiracy theories attached.

But that RELIES ON YOU KNOWING THAT WAS THE PROPER PLAY. I do not think you, being a scum mason, knew that you were outing ether by claiming. While it may be the proper play, I DO NOT BELIEVE IT WAS YOUR PLAY. I think the only reason you were claiming mason was the save your own hide.

So then it is in my interests to scold you if you are town.

Reading over my posts, I think now I understand where I was unclear. But if I get this right, this post should clear that all up.

[Simenon]

I don't understand the question in post 1938.

[Sir Tornado]

I already stated I didn't think that outed ether.

Ok, so, tell me, exactly how did BooKie claim out Ether? I was under the impression that you said that that comment of yours linked Ether to masonary after Boo claim, but it seems that I have misunderstood you. Would you correct me then?

[Simenon]

I already stated I didn't think that outed ether.

Ok, so, tell me, exactly how did BooKie claim out Ether? I was under the impression that you said that that comment of yours linked Ether to masonary after Boo claim, but it seems that I have misunderstood you. Would you correct me then?

Because I felt it provided a reason for why ether and I were wagonning bookitty, a reason that wasn't necessarily there before and something both of us could easily have denied.

[Sir Tornado]

Because I felt it provided a reason for why ether and I were wagonning bookitty, a reason that wasn't necessarily there before and something both of us could easily have denied.

That doesn't actually explain how Bookie claim outed Ether, which i asked in the post you quoted...

Simenon, please try to be a bit less vague.

[Bookitty]

The exact wording of my claim.

All right, I'll claim. It's traditional, after all.

I'm a mason.

Note the lack of asking for confirmation. Note the general lack of anything except a claim.

If I were looking to out Ether, why would I be so brief? Why wouldn't I have breadcrumbed in thread (as you did, Simenon) for confirmation of my claim?

What post exactly do you feel outed Ether? And why could you not have foreseen my claiming, if you felt I was scum? You just stated that this is exactly what scum WOULD do, if they were trying to out the other masons, so... did you think I was scum when you were voting for me, or didn't you? Both can't be true.

[Simenon]

If I were looking to out Ether, why would I be so brief?

I do not think you, being a scum mason, knew that you were outing ether by claiming.

[Bookitty]

And why would a scum mason care that they outed Ether?

You still fail to answer exactly, in what post, with a quote, where Ether was outed in your view.

Where is that, please?

[Sir Tornado]

If I were looking to out Ether, why would I be so brief?

I do not think you, being a scum mason, knew that you were outing ether by claiming.

That doesn't actually explain how Bookie claim outed Ether, which i asked in the post you quoted...

Simenon, please try to be a bit less vague.

[Simenon]

And why would a scum mason care that they outed Ether?

You still fail to answer exactly, in what post, with a quote, where Ether was outed in your view.

Where is that, please?

You do realize that you are hitting me with these questions ad nauseam?

As I said countless times, outing ether reveals one of the confirmed innocents.

And as I said, I believe your claim outed ether indirectly. Not only have I answered that specific question, but I have certainly referenced that in almost every post so far.

[Bookitty]

And as I said, I believe your claim outed ether indirectly. Not only have I answered that specific question, but I have certainly referenced that in almost every post so far.

HOW?

How did my claim out her in a way that my death and subsequent revealing of my role would not have?

Why do you keep avoiding this question?