Mini 1877: Spyro the Dragon (Game Over)

[eagerSnake]

[massive]

So you are reading RC and Not Mafia as lock Town then?

I do think RC is town. The inclusion of Not_Mafia is WIFOMy at best and I kinda expected Infinity to call me on it.

[MagnaofIllusion]

And now that the game is officiallly over I can quote the following -

I would prefer that you vote Fitz first because I'm like 99.9% certain Fitz is scum vs 99.6% certain MoI is scum and I think that Fitz is more palatable as a wagon anyway.

From Nightless Vengeful Mayhem Open 669. Nahdia_Superfan is an RC alt.

I was Town that game. So was RC. So take with a heaping dose of salt what RC says about his accuracy on reads (regardless of what you think his alignment is). Because you cannot be much more certain than 99.6%.

[eagerSnake]

I don't see how any true townie could have N_M as anything other than null tbh

[eagerSnake]

And now that the game is officiallly over I can quote the following -

I would prefer that you vote Fitz first because I'm like 99.9% certain Fitz is scum vs 99.6% certain MoI is scum and I think that Fitz is more palatable as a wagon anyway.

From Nightless Vengeful Mayhem Open 669. Nahdia_Superfan is an RC alt.

I was Town that game. So was RC. So take with a heaping dose of salt what RC says about his accuracy on reads (regardless of what you think his alignment is). Because you cannot be much more certain than 99.6%.

Well they did have fitz right

[Infinity 324]

So you are reading RC and Not Mafia as lock Town then?

I do think RC is town. The inclusion of Not_Mafia is WIFOMy at best and I kinda expected Infinity to call me on it.

Interesting, I didn't think it was relevant to the point so I didn't bother

[lane0168]

Ok interesting. How much do you think we should trust RC if he's town?

Also what do you think about his play post-AtE?

I was just going to say... I simultaneously trust him and distrust him. I don't know if I could sheep them on that. I've maybe ever been so duped once (if Gin was actually scum) which is why I wish he'd answer you when asking about other people.

I think his play post AtE looks like he did everything he could to get pressure off him so he can stop with the charade. He still hasn't done any of the things asked of him during the freak out

[MagnaofIllusion]

So my Princess Bride review – Infinity was Town.

My immediate impression is that Infinity’s reads there are significantly different from her. At 41 he already has two scumreads (Primate and Leon) and only has expressed a single Town read (Nero, based on a recently ended game where Nero was scum). Infinity also votes Massive at 61 which should indicate some sort of scum-read.

Adds a Town-read for Rach at 75. Indicates he can see a case on Shaddowez at 87. Reiterates his Nero Town meta read at 90.

First read list at 106. I’m quoting it because I think it reflected very differently than the Poker Mafia reads list –

Oh so we have a double voter do we?

That makes farside more likely to be town.

So we have

town - me, farside, nero, rach
null - PEP, DPR, massive, MoI, sword (entrance slightly towny but I'm not sure)
scum - shadow, leon, primate

No stratified tiers … just Town reads (4), scum reads (3) and the rest Null. So Town Infinity once again has a pretty well balanced reads list, at least early on. At 420 we get a reads list with 4 Town, 2 Meh Town, 2 Meh Scum, and 1 Scum read.

Another quote I think needs presented …

I actually have never seen a scum player who looks like he's saying everything that comes to his mind, and that's the feeling I get from nero.

This is consistent with his stance from this game. On the other hand we have this –

I kinda wanna townread Leon cause I like his reads and the PEP vote is proactive, but that seems naive

Town Infinity is actively acknowledging that having similar reads and being Proactive being the basis for a Townread might be poor.

At 216 Infinity posits that scum win games by lurking and lists 5 players who were low on content. He expresses that very likely all the scum are in this pool. He was2/3rds correct (1 mafia and the Serial Killer).

[eagerSnake]

So is infinity town or scum here

[Infinity 324]

MoI, can you summarize the main differences you see from this game? Because a lot of the things you seem to be finding are minor differences, except maybe "fewer early townreads".

[eagerSnake]

except maybe "fewer early townreads".

WHich isn't really relevant because you replaced in with like 30 pages of content

[Infinity 324]

It's somewhat relevant because I gave my thoughts as I caught up, but less so than usual.

[lane0168]

I'm bummed I didn't do more to figure out why Elsa claimed friendly neighbor, when apparently that had nothing to do with their role

[eagerSnake]

I'm bummed I didn't do more to figure out why Elsa claimed friendly neighbor, when apparently that had nothing to do with their role

Yeah that is sketchy but the slot is lock town

[RadiantCowbells]

I told everyone to lynch Fitz first for a reason.

I was nowhere near 99.6% sure that you were scum, I just had you as my third biggest scumread and really didn't want to see you make it to endgame.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I told everyone to lynch Fitz first for a reason.

I was nowhere near 99.6% sure that you were scum, I just had you as my third biggest scumread and really didn't want to see you make it to endgame.

Which is why I don't believe a word coming out of your mouth about how strong your Gin scum-read is regardless of your alignment here. Because I've seen far too often you retract on junk statements after the fact saying "Oh, it was a gambit".

[RadiantCowbells]

I mean given the context of the game it shouldn't be a difficult claim for you to believe

[MagnaofIllusion]

I just had you as my third biggest scumread and

really didn't want to see you make it to endgame

Also along these lines -

Everyone pay attention

- If RC makes it to MYLO / LYLO lynch them. No questions asked. I don't care if he is Cop / Gunsmith cleared. I don't care if he retracts FA's claim and claims Mason with an unflipped player. I don't care if a Role Cop results look to clear him. Unless he is literally a Mod confirmed Innocent Child then he needs to die if he gets to MYLO / LYLO.

[Infinity 324]

^ I agree, especially if occam's razor says he's scum

[Infinity 324]

RC, what do you think about lane's read on you

[Infinity 324]

MoI, can you summarize the main differences you see from this game? Because a lot of the things you seem to be finding are minor differences, except maybe "fewer early townreads".

Don't criticize me for missing shit then not answer my questions -_-

[MagnaofIllusion]

So for those playing along at home – my thoughts based on my read of Poker Mafia and Princess Bride Mafia –

After looking over both games I think the differences are much more pronounced than Infinity is trying to suggest. Looking back over his ISO I see much more in common with Poker Scum Infinity than Town PB Infinity.

As mentioned in the Poker catchup there is a consistency with Infinity’s play here regarding Town-reads and how readily he hands them out. His first reads list (1102) has 4 players as scum and the rest Town “above the Null line”. The fact that there isn’t a null category (and he hasn’t finished catching up at this stage, it was “boring” and had only read to page 11) is a pretty strong scum indicator. Posts like 1373 where he gets “Town vibes” from Massive are another example. Nothing concrete there.

And his push and then back-off of RC I think resembles his play in Poker as well. The wagon got to L-1 and he finds a weak motivation (1367 – which basically is “He’s Town because he AtEd for an extended period and then under pressure is cooperating) to reverse fields and call RC Town. And another one at 1428 where “timing” is the reason that slot is Town. Best not to stay on RC's bad side if RC is Town.

And as pointed out in my re-read he has a distinct lack of scum Reads in 1477 (and comments on it which happened twice in Poker Mafia). Infinity did not as Town have a problem finding scum reads in Princess Bride Mafia. Which is good scum play – keep your pool of people who might call you out on suspecting them for poor reason to a minimum Day1.

He’s also doing the “Hey PlayerX what do you think of PlayerY” routine ( I count at least two so far) that he did as scum in Poker.

So Infinity is in my Scum Pool with SirCakez and Aella but I don’t think they are all partners together as it stands.

--

I do think RC is town. The inclusion of Not_Mafia is WIFOMy at best and I kinda expected Infinity to call me on it.

Ok so he didn’t and I did. What does that say given Infinity is Town reading you?

--

I don't see how any true townie could have N_M as anything other than null tbh

Funny you would say this given the following reads lists from players you are solidly Town reading ..

New reads would be
Town
{eagerSnake, RagingSpammers, Not_Mafia}
{RadiantCowbells, AElla Was Spine}
{Infinity324, lane0168}
Null {Flubbernugget, massive, LeonShade}
{SirCakez, MagnaofIllusion}
{}
Scum

{spammers, eager}
{gin, cakez, RC, leon}
{aella, n_m, massive, flubber}
--------------------
{MoI, lane}

That's one too many townreads. Ok

I mean I agree but the fact that it looks like you are throwing shade Massive’s way while not even blinking when both Gin and Infinity listed him as Town on their latest lists is puzzling.

--

Me? I think he's town. He's brought up a lot of points I agree with and I like his tone.

Hmmm … if Infinity is scum then I need to rethink my read on Cakez because this doesn’t look like how he treats partners traditionally.

Don't criticize me for missing shit then not answer my questions -_-

Oh the righteous indignation …

It’s been less than 3 hours since the Princess Bride review. I have other games and other responsibilities to attend to. The fact that I didn’t instantly get back to you (and Eager) given the complexity of the post involved but could make quick posts doesn’t warrant this response IMO.

[eagerSnake]

I mean I agree but the fact that it looks like you are throwing shade Massive’s way while not even blinking when both Gin and Infinity listed him as Town on their latest lists is puzzling.

Yeah I want those reads explained further that's why I poked at it

[Infinity 324]

The fact that there isn’t a null category (and he hasn’t finished catching up at this stage, it was “boring” and had only read to page 11) is a pretty strong scum indicator. Posts like 1373 where he gets “Town vibes” from Massive are another example. Nothing concrete there.

I don't remember specific cases, but I probably have had towngames where I had few/no nullreads and have definitely had towngames where I townread people off of nothing concrete.

And his push and then back-off of RC I think resembles his play in Poker as well.

...in what way?

And as pointed out in my re-read he has a distinct lack of scum Reads in 1477 (and comments on it which happened twice in Poker Mafia). Infinity did not as Town have a problem finding scum reads in Princess Bride Mafia. Which is good scum play – keep your pool of people who might call you out on suspecting them for poor reason to a minimum Day1.

He’s also doing the “Hey PlayerX what do you think of PlayerY” routine ( I count at least two so far) that he did as scum in Poker.

Both of these are common things for me to do as town as well

Using such a small about of meta is fine for part of a read, but when you use it to base almost your entire read on me that's pretty damn weak. Not to mention, those games were a while ago so it's possible my playstyle has changed since then. I only brought up princess bride as a counterexample.

Speaking of which, are you sure there weren't any other times I gave townreads for reasons you thought were bad?

Hmmm … if Infinity is scum then I need to rethink my read on Cakez because this doesn’t look like how he treats partners traditionally.

What's different about it from poker mafia? Have you seen any other scum games of mine that you're going off of?

It’s been less than 3 hours since the Princess Bride review. I have other games and other responsibilities to attend to. The fact that I didn’t instantly get back to you (and Eager) given the complexity of the post involved but could make quick posts doesn’t warrant this response IMO.

Ok sorry

PEdit: The only reason n_m is above null for me is modWIFOM with the claims

[Infinity 324]

I will say that this does look like an attempt to sort me which is...better than what I've seen before from MoI but it's a pretty weak attempt and not too hard to fake.